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#1 Edited by Akindoodle (981 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by TheManInTheShoe (3878 posts) - - Show Bio

Show this to Gail Simone and hell will rise!

#3 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@akindoodle: Yeah, comics do kind of overdo some stuff to the point that it does just get plain sexist

#4 Posted by Akindoodle (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: But it's 2013 for crying out loud! Even if they believed this kind of BS, they should have the decency to shut the hell up about it and not blow it up stroking their own damn egos. Geez...

@themanintheshoe: Haha, that would probably do the trick. Someone send it to her on twitter or something

#5 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by ShadowX (1218 posts) - - Show Bio

Jerks. I heard about this through tumblr. This is just Crazy @-@

#7 Edited by nappystr8 (1043 posts) - - Show Bio

While I don't disagree with this girl, I think she would find that you catch more flies with honey. Comics have a ways to go when it comes to gender equality, as with many other twentieth and twenty-first century issues. But denouncing the comics industry and it's creators as misogynists for insinuated attacks on the female readership is in itself and act of persecution. Making enemies is not a good way to change minds, it is however a convenient way to increase the hit-count of her article I bet.

Particularly her beef with Mark Millar seems completely unnecessary, as the few times she quotes him, he is generally agreeing with her opinions. She doesn't like the ways that he chooses to express his art, and that's fine, but you should never condemn a man based on differences in opinion of artistic expression. I feel Millar makes a very good point: that everyone claps and cheers for decapitations, exploding body parts, and electrodes tacked to the balls, but the second you bring up rape, everyone starts to get judgey. I shouldn't speak for Millar, but I would guess the reason he used a rape scene in Kick Ass 2, was because it was the only act of violence he could think of that would still get a human emotion out of his audience instead of giggles and glee at human suffering (not that Millar isn't a huge cause of the desensitization of violence in comics, to be fair). Rape is a real problem that women have to worry about every day of their lives, it's not right, or fair. I'm sure women who have been raped have opened up certain comics, and had to relive a traumatic experience that no one should have to live through or relive. We also have a lot of military service men and veterans around the world, they see violence first hand, they watch children get blown to pieces, some have lost limbs themselves in explosions. PTSD from war ruins lives just like rape does. Many servicemen and veterans are also comic readers. It is likely that many of them have opened up a comic book and had to relive traumatic experiences from war that they should never have had to have lived through or relive. The same goes for the many civilian victims of war violence or terrorism. Does that mean all comics should go back to being rated PG, where guns are forbidden and no punch or blast leads to any visible blood? Personally, I think we should put a little more faith in our creators than to tie their hands in that way.

Gerry Conway's beliefs are antiquated and ignorant, but to be honest, he's a little antiquated himself. To say his opinions are influential in the comics industry or representative of the common consensus in the comics industry is ridiculous. That would be like saying Frank Miller's anti Muslim agenda is shared by DC Comics because he is historically Batman's most famous writer. And as far as Todd McFarlane's comments go, they might not be the most progressive ideas ever, but they aren't really wrong. The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of superhero comic readers historically have been and continue now to be men and boys. They are testosterone filled adventures, it is in their makeup. That doesn't mean there isn't room for kick-ass female heroes, or kick-ass female readers, but the male market is where the money is. Not to get too far into "anecdata", but I know very few girls who are into comics and see very few girls in the comic stores I have been to. And indeed, most (not all) of the female readers I have run into are not interested in Marvel or DC, they flock to indie offerings like Fables, Saga, Walking Dead, and Morning Glories.

#8 Edited by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

They are all idiots. Complete and utter asses and comments like theirs deserve to be highlighted and shared. Women don't read comics? They referred to their own daughters for proof of that? Seriously?

Comparing rape to decapitation? As a tool to get across the villain is truly evil? Kickass having the one of the hero's girlfriends gets gang-raped to get the hero motivated for revenge? Seriously?

History excuses not writing strong female characters? This is a good reason not to? Add to that the idea comics reflect society -- seriously? Seriously?

Millar and the gang are all morons, Conway has since apologized and writers in droves including Morrison AND Ellis have spoken up against this ignorant and idiotic diatribe from four writers who have and are becoming more and more irrelevant to the industry. As they should be.

@nappystr8

At the risk of sounding combative, I disagree strongly with the idea of catching more flies with honey. This kind of garbage should be pointed out for the ignorant garbage that it is and further, to compare what they said to very real horrors in the world and claiming criticisms like this would lead to shackling creativity is confusing and not applicable at all. If something looks like a chicken, clucks like a chicken and tastes like a chicken -- it's a chicken. These individuals are being called out for their sexist and misogynistic commentary and anyone -- not just a female blogger -- is within rights to call them out on it. And while the idea that comics are made mostly for males is fair, what isn't is the idea males prefer their female characters to be in positions like those described and depicted in these writers' books. I have a better opinion of comic fans as a whole and don't see a divide in that regard. Further to that -- for someone who says comics reflects society, I have yet to see a society comprised of mostly males.

I am not singling you out but while your experiences are just as qualitative as mine, to claim your experience is indicative of the customer base in its entirety is not the best basis to form an opinion. To claim most females purchase and read only indie books is pure speculation and funnily enough, the books you've quoted have been recommended to me by males on this site, fans themselves of the titles.

#9 Edited by TheAcidSkull (17376 posts) - - Show Bio

Not surprised, I mean these guys write the most idiotic, immature, disgusting stories. They are all idiots.

"LOL YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE FUN!? IF HULK F*CKED HIS COUSIN AND HAD 20 HILLBILLY BABIES! F*CKING COOL HUH? AND LETS MAKE HIM EAT WOLVERINE ! OMG SO KEWL!"

-_____-

who would take these asshats seriously? it's funny that they even have Jobs.

#10 Posted by Wolverine08 (38958 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaa, these guys are stuck in the 1800's.......................................................

#11 Posted by AustinHasten (218 posts) - - Show Bio

The lady that wrote that article is an absolute idiot.

"good for you, but I doubt your career is going to last very long. "

She says this about the writer of KICK-ASS, a SUCCESSFUL MOVIE FRANCHISE, and TODD MCFARLANE, a veteran of the comic book industry that's been relevant for over 10 years, and also has a (less) SUCCESSFUL MOVIE FRANCHISE. (Might I remind you that issue #234 of Spawn just came out?)

And she argues with them when they say that readers aren't interested in female driven book. Guess what? They aren't. I and all of my comic reading friends read many titles, none of them female driven. You don't have to be a misogynist to prefer male lead characters.

#12 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

#13 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@austinhasten: hey, guess what? You and your small group of friends dont represent every comic fan, least of all female comic fans. I'm male, and I prefer books that focus on female characters. So do most of my comic reading friends. To state that there is no interest in female focused books at all is beyond ignorant. There very much is, but if you dont want to acknowledge it that's your problem. You dont even need to prefer female led titles to point out this misogynistic drivel for exactly what it is. Females dont belong in comics, my ass. Grow up.

#14 Edited by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

Vomits in disgust. And the funny thing is you're all up for women dressing up in the skimpy costumes to cosplay and beat off to. Just no. I've been reading comics for just under ten years [since I was nine and I'm nearly nineteen] and I was continually frustrated how so many female characters are written as disposable. I am a woman and I am not disposable, so why should female comic book characters be. If you're wondering why there is a low readership among women it's because it's a very hostile read time and time again. There gets a point where you just get sick of seeing female characters killed, raped, depowered, go mad over and over and over. It's litetrally gotten to the point where around 70% of my favourite female characters are dead or have been retconned out or completely changed to the point where they are unrecognizable.

#15 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

Others on tubmlr and elsewhere have sufficiently cut their terrible logic apart, but I'll add my voice here to those expressing outrage at these comments.

#16 Edited by Saren (25332 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised the author of that article didn't include Alan Moore in her criticism. I can't think of a single writer who uses rape as a plot device more than Moore does. Grant Morrison even called him out on exactly that, but Moore for some reason (maybe it's just the general crazy old lunatic aura he's got) never seems to catch any flak for shock value crap like the Invisible Man sexually assaulting Mina Harker and then getting punished for it by Hyde forcibly sodomizing him to death.

Of course, nothing tops Millar's stupid rape-abortion crap from Nemesis. But give Jupiter's Legacy a few more months and he'll figure out a way to top it.

Moderator
#17 Posted by entropy_aegis (14508 posts) - - Show Bio

Millar is a bastard but an incredibly clever one.

#18 Posted by Billy Batson (57799 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm surprised the author of that article didn't include Alan Moore in her criticism. I can't think of a single writer who uses rape as a plot device more than Moore does. Grant Morrison even called him out on exactly that, but Moore for some reason (maybe it's just the general crazy old lunatic aura he's got) never seems to catch any flak for shock value crap like the Invisible Man sexually assaulting Mina Harker and then getting punished for it by Hyde forcibly sodomizing him to death.

Of course, nothing tops Millar's stupid rape-abortion crap from Nemesis. But give Jupiter's Legacy a few more months and he'll figure out a way to top it.

Moore's rape scenes aren't really shock value a la Millar.

BB

#19 Posted by Akindoodle (981 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, I was only gone for 3 days...

#20 Posted by Cr4pSnip3r (302 posts) - - Show Bio

Hahaha xD

#21 Posted by Ostyo (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@akindoodle: They can say whatever they want and they have every right to say it, you're in the wrong if you're telling people to shut the hell up like a child just because you don't like it.

Do I think their opinions are laughable and silly, yes I do. Do I have a right to tell them they can't express those opinions openly and freely, no I don't.

But I don't have to read their comics either. ;P

#22 Posted by Akindoodle (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@ostyo: eh, I guess. I guess I also have the right to be offended and tell them to shut up (as that is me saying something and I have the right to say what I want, right?). Doesn't mean they're gonna do it. Doesn't mean I have to shut up about how I feel. See? We all win

#23 Posted by Ostyo (6793 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Posted by Aiden Cross (15562 posts) - - Show Bio

I doubt any rational thinking person will agree with them. So their opinion means nothing to me.

#25 Posted by Akindoodle (981 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Edited by LimboBot (116 posts) - - Show Bio

so we are taking them seriously? These Guys are Known for....odd stories...

#27 Edited by Guardian_of_Gravity (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh this should be ni-

1. Comics don't aim for diversity because it would weaken the storytelling.

Ahahahaha, F*CK YOU

#28 Posted by Samuel_Simmons (153 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, whoever wrote that article is even more ignorant than they think millar and mcfarlane are. @akindoodle listen to @ostyo, you might learn a thing or two. For everyone else, sorry but comics aren't very female driven, sure they definitely have a place in comics. Every male I've known to actually enjoy female led books do so because they're being pervs, but hey theres exceptions to every rule. I've had friends try to get into them and they just can't do it, there's just no interest, i mean look at the sales, there isn't a single book in the top 50. For female comic readers i can't help but think they're interested only because the books are female led, basically the other side of the coin being called ignorance.

#29 Posted by SoftMachineOo (129 posts) - - Show Bio

well johny bates was rape O: ....

#30 Posted by Akindoodle (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@samuel_simmons: I don't agree with all the article said but I used it as a link to the quotes. I've already resolved my pseudo argument with Ostyo, thank you very much.

#31 Edited by TDK_1997 (14474 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not surprised that Millar said such a thing.Everything he does is actually pretty insulting any human being.He hasn't done a story where at least one character is sane and does normal things.

#32 Posted by AustinHasten (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

They're all poop. Wonder Woman is aight. But the rest are poopoo.

#33 Posted by AustinHasten (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@austinhasten:

1. hey, guess what? You and your small group of friends dont represent every comic fan, least of all female comic fans. I'm male, and I prefer books that focus on female characters. So do most of my comic reading friends.

2. You dont even need to prefer female led titles to point out this misogynistic drivel for exactly what it is.

3. To state that there is no interest in female focused books at all is beyond ignorant. There very much is, but if you dont want to acknowledge it that's your problem.

4. Females dont belong in comics, my ass. Grow up.

1. Actually, me and my friends do represent most of comic readership. We're males between 15 and 20 with disposable income. We're the demographic.

2. Don't state that you prefer books that focus on female characters and then call me a misogynist for preferring male driven books. By your own logic, you're a misandrist.

3. I said that readers aren't interested in female driven books. Not that there was no interest in them at all. I made a generalization based on the fact that me and my group of friends don't like them. (Remember, we're who people are talking about when they say "readers". I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that that is the way it is.)

4. It seems that you're implying that I believe that females don't belong in comics. That's very far from the truth. Justice League Dark is one of my favorite tiles and has multiple female heroes. The Saga of Swamp Thing is my favorite series of all time, and focuses largely on Swamp Thing's wife.

I don't hate women, sir, that's for sure. I just happen to prefer male driven comic books, and believe that the demographic that comic books are targeted at agree with me.

#34 Edited by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

They're all poop. Wonder Woman is aight. But the rest are poopoo.

Which ones do you mean when you say all? Have you read every one of them?

#35 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (10420 posts) - - Show Bio

*sigh*

Women; they can't catch a break in comics, and with jerks like this around, they never will.

#36 Posted by TekTheNinja (766 posts) - - Show Bio

I tweeted this to gail simone. XD

#37 Edited by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

I am so close to screaming in frustration about some of these comments.

#38 Posted by Web_Flotsam (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

Huh. Millar time again. *checks fridge* Yep, full of women.

#39 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

Who gives a good god damn what they think? No one? Yep. Thought so.

#40 Posted by AustinHasten (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@austinhasten said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

They're all poop. Wonder Woman is aight. But the rest are poopoo.

Which ones do you mean when you say all? Have you read every one of them?

No I haven't read every one of them. I made a generalization, as we all do.

#41 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

They're all poop. Wonder Woman is aight. But the rest are poopoo.

Which ones do you mean when you say all? Have you read every one of them?

No I haven't read every one of them. I made a generalization, as we all do.

So you read a few female led titles, and decided that no female titles can be good because of that?

I think that counts as sexist. It's fine not to like certain titles, but to rule out all of them based on gender is unreasonable.

#42 Edited by Captain13 (3281 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

They're all poop. Wonder Woman is aight. But the rest are poopoo.

Which ones do you mean when you say all? Have you read every one of them?

No I haven't read every one of them. I made a generalization, as we all do.

So you read a few female led titles, and decided that no female titles can be good because of that?

I think that counts as sexist. It's fine not to like certain titles, but to rule out all of them based on gender is unreasonable.

Gasp, women with power?! Hell no! Male power fantasy only, noobs.

Dwayne McDuffie on Wonder Woman’s detractors #1: “First, Wonder Woman is more of a symbol than a character. Even more so than Superman, if you give her the slightest bit of personality, you’ll grievously offend a significant portion of her fans. More importantly, she’s female. A large percentage of superhero fans just don’t like competent heroines. There’s something about the genre that attracts those kinds of fans. Think about all the people who ‘hate’ Hawkgirl, Wonder Woman, Vixen…even Supergirl. How can anybody hate Supergirl? The male characters, including the ones who aren’t very nice, don’t inspire the ire that even the most likable female characters do (courtesy of DwayneMcDuffie.com).”

Gail Simone on Wonder Woman’s detractors: “It is also a sad fact that a significant number of big name writers don’t care about Diana at all, which baffles me. Great gimmicks, great origin, great character…I don’t get it (courtesy of DwayneMcDuffie.com).”

Dwayne McDuffie on Wonder Woman’s detractors #2: “A lot of that is the same reason, [Gail]. A fair number of guys who write this stuff are either disinterested in women with power, or actively opposed to it. I think you’ve written something about that somewhere (courtesy of DwayneMcDuffie.com)?”

http://jl.toonzone.net/wonder/wonder.htm

#43 Posted by Samuel_Simmons (153 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose I'm sorry, but @austinhasten is not sexist, not even close to it. You're trying to force that label on him. He did at a time read supergirl, a female driven book, but dropped it because it became uninteresting to him. What he's saying that he has read some female driven books and didn't enjoy them. You can't honestly expect him to read every single female driven book, after trying so many times with the same results, one will just stop attempting and make an assumption. There's no reason for him to be so adamant as to not stop until finding a female driven book that is enjoyable, that's looking for a book because the main character is female. That would be sexist.

#44 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

I'm surprised the author of that article didn't include Alan Moore in her criticism. I can't think of a single writer who uses rape as a plot device more than Moore does. Grant Morrison even called him out on exactly that, but Moore for some reason (maybe it's just the general crazy old lunatic aura he's got) never seems to catch any flak for shock value crap like the Invisible Man sexually assaulting Mina Harker and then getting punished for it by Hyde forcibly sodomizing him to death.

Of course, nothing tops Millar's stupid rape-abortion crap from Nemesis. But give Jupiter's Legacy a few more months and he'll figure out a way to top it.

Moore is a really weird example. Look at Watchmen. The first Silk Spectre is raped, and impregnated, and thus completely forgives her rapist, arguably falling in love with him? A lot of Moore's work can certainly be seen as Chauvinistic but for some reason, it's never really brought up. (In From Hell, Gull goes around murdering women and ultimately becomes immortal, never really suffering any form of penance.) The Killing Joke is like a poster-child for a lot of chauvinistic sentiment, but because it's well written and has some other tremendous moments, it's deemed OK? Weird. Really, really weird.

As for these three cretins. Is anyone surprised by the fact that the guy who wrote Nemesis is a misogynist?

#45 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@samuel_simmons: I'm not expecting him to read every one. I'm just saying to label every one of them bad because you don't like a few of them is wrong.

#46 Edited by JulieDC (876 posts) - - Show Bio

I generally find that people who make comments like that are either too lazy to do it and do it right or lack the creativity to pull it off successfully. And then they blame everyone else but themselves for why women and comics supposedly don't mix.

#47 Posted by Samuel_Simmons (153 posts) - - Show Bio

@v_scarlotte_rose eh, that's debatable. But just because he made a generalization, or his wording is simply off doesn't make him sexist. He's not saying it's impossible for a female driven book to be good, and even if he was that would only be wrong if he said it stemmed from the fact the book is female driven.

#48 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

@samuel_simmons: Labeling things you haven't read as bad being wrong is debatable? How exactly? If you haven't read actually read something, there's no reason for you to say that it is bad, as you just don't know.

The fact that he said that he doesn't read any female driven books because they are "poop" despite not having read them all implies that this does stem from them being female driven.

#49 Edited by AustinHasten (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@austinhasten said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@austinhasten: May I ask why you or none of your group read any female led titles?

They're all poop. Wonder Woman is aight. But the rest are poopoo.

Which ones do you mean when you say all? Have you read every one of them?

No I haven't read every one of them. I made a generalization, as we all do.

So you read a few female led titles, and decided that no female titles can be good because of that?

I think that counts as sexist. It's fine not to like certain titles, but to rule out all of them based on gender is unreasonable.

Are you implying that I would have to read EVERY SINGLE female title before I could justifiably decide that I didn't like them? That's absurd. I don't have to have tried EVERY SINGLE type of seafood to decidedly say that I don't like seafood.

And I didn't rule them all out based on the gender of the lead. I ruled them out based on the quality of the book. Which was poor. If female driven books were good, I'd read them. You're all just assuming I hate women because I disagreed with the woman who wrote that article.

#50 Posted by AustinHasten (218 posts) - - Show Bio

@samuel_simmons: I'm not expecting him to read every one. I'm just saying to label every one of them bad because you don't like a few of them is wrong.

I'm sure there's a food or some other thing that you've label bad, and I'm POSITIVE that you decided that based on only a few of them. The same way I've only had a few kinds of fish, yet it's highly logical for me to decide that I don't like seafood based on those experiences.