Marvel killing Sun God?

Excuse me if I'm missing something here, I haven't read yet read the comics but reading up about this Marvel 'Sun God' character; and I've read that the Illuminati (I think) are battling with another Universe's heroes to see who's Earth will live, Dr. Strange defeats them and simply lets their world die.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Zoran_%28Earth-4290001%29

Am I missing something here or is that clearly not...heroic for the mainstream heroes to do?

@lvenger

@frozen: It was one Earth or the other. One had to be destroyed for the other one to live. Also this are the iluminaties they would make choices that are not heroic at all.

@frozen: Read up on the entire New Avengers run so far coz a lot of it is pretty great. You'll understand what happened and why it had to be so.

This.

The end of the issue especially touches up and emphasizes on this matter,not that it hasn't been gradually brought up throughout the entire series.

It's about making difficult choices for survival. It's either "our world dies,or theirs".

@frozen: I'm not a fan of it myself but as it has been mentioned before, the whole point of Hickman's series has been a "them or us" decision on a planetary scale. Plus The Illuminati is, by its nature, a secret society that does things public heroes couldn't do even in the Marvel Universe for fear of damaging their reputation beyond repair. I don't much like the series myself for many reasons but I understand why Hickman has chosen to write New Avengers the way he has.

@lvenger: I don't really see the point in making heroes into that. IMO, stories like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis and even Injustice emphasize heroes from other Universes going out of their way to save other Universes/parallell Earth's.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the Illuminate end up receiving a major league backlash over this from the rest of the Marvel U when it finds out. Yes, they saved the world, at the expense of someone elses.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

They saved two universes by blowing up one planet.

@frozen: Well the whole point is that is makes for a great and well-planned out story with many more possibilities for future stories already being set up. It's also giving us a different take on what some of the most powerful heroes have to go through and what they must do to protect the universe. Plus the Illuminati haven't all lost their morality and turned into something/someone else. Spoiler from last issue:

Namor was the one who pulled the trigger to destroy the planet when the rest of the Illuminati didn't want to but he was never really a true hero.

@fresh_prince: I know it was Namor now that did it, however I honestly don't see the point in writers writing such comics, maybe it's just me, but I don't think it's compelling, I find it unnecessary that superheroes should be forced to choose between ''my world or yours'' --- that's why I genuinely prefer stories in which they can save alternate Earth's. I don't think there's much development at all with the Illuminati.

@frozen: Well I guess that's just a matter of preference. I for one and really enjoying the series and seeing where everything is going so far and I'm sure others agree with both our takes on this. Well by destroying the alternate Earth, they are actually saving the entire alternate universe as well so there's that as another upside which has them saving more than just a planet. Also, there is actually quite a bit of character development going on in the book especially with Black Panther, Strange and Namor.

I read the title and was all "Huitzilopochtli, nooo!".

@daspacecowboy: Killing billions of people.

Irredeemable.

And preventing death of billions of billions of billions of billions of billions of billions... i-don't-know-how-many-people.

See, this New Avengers theme is like Crisis on Infinite Earthes without one big bad Antimonitor and clear cause of cataclysm and with collision|incursion of universes instead of antimatter walls. They already tried to prevent collisions without killing but even infinity gauntlet was one-shot instrument, gems break after first use in such manner. So no Big Bad to stop, no clear cause, no deus-ex-machine save. Not much choise, yes?

@frozen: but why read the same story again? This story is so good because its takes out the cliche heroism and forces the heroes make the hard choice and deal with the repercussions that come with it.

The problem is, the cliche has been taken over the edge - I mean, I just don't agree with the way they were written, and attempted or planned to destroy another Earth. They're not heroes IMHO. I would rather see a plot device save the planet than see 'heroes' twisted into something else.

@rubear: Not the point. The point of @frozen s complaint is that the heroes are choosing to save their own world (first and foremonst in their minds), by killing billions on the other planet. That's not what heroes do.

Plus I really have to say I find that it seems really stupid that a collection of the greatest minds on Marvel Earth (minus outright villains) cannot think of a better solution than to blow shit up when between them they've broken every natural and physical law there is.

@frozen: to each his own.

I'm glad they weren't written in the typical hero fashion and written as proud men reduced to desperation dealing with a problem they can't seem to solve. I kinda wish it was someone other than Namor that pulled the trigger.

I just wish it wasn't the only book Black Panther is in, because the series is stupid on many levels.

@wavemotioncannon: Yeah, but that doesn't make them heroes, it's unnecessary to push them into such deep boundaries because it really makes me question whether they are bordering villain. Heroes never kill innocent people, especially not an entire planet of them.

You also dislike the New Avengers/Illuminati?

@frozen: Yes. I have a huge dislike for multiversal concepts. I think its one of the worst things ever introduced in comics and my interest immediately goes down when you include it in a story. Let alone like this in which its the foundation for everything that's happening. I find it utterly boring, uninteresting and frankly just dumb. Its just a by-product of writers constantly trying to up the ante on a literal scale instead of making something meaningful by writing a good story.

Its why for example, Valiant's universe is so f*cking awesome, because everything takes place on 1 planet. Everything that happens is meaningful. It doesn't have to have over the top ramifications to be good because you care about what happening. I don't give a rats ass about alternate reality 11.374, or about an unnamed alien planet. I care about Earth and the heroes who live on it.

Add to that that Hickman sucks at writing characters and that all of the characters save BP I don't give a rats ass about, the series didn't last very long with me.

Okay, i see. So tell me how you see this problem solved, hm?

This bothers me much more than their morality.

How about just moving one of the Earths out of the path of the others. Might be difficult, but not the hardest thing ever accomplished by these people.

That was already failed by Hiperion, who is now sole sirvivour of incursion, and by Illuminaty via Infinity Gauntlet, success, but IG was destroyed in process. Other ideas?

Why not just shift everyone on the other Earth to 616-Mars? The red planet is hospitable in the Marvel Universe and I think the Garden terraformed most of it already.

Well, that's good idea, but it needs time, acceptance of protectors of other Earth and is also more of one-time solution. As far as i remember Illuminaty began with negotiations, no? But hot-heads clashed and all get grim, after that they don't have time for evacuation.

I'm not a fan of Hickman in general.

@rubear: No, it doesn't - there is no time, you think getting the people of Earth to accept a move is worse than killing all of them?

To even use the Infinity Gauntlet was just stupid, the Illuminate knew years ago that it only works in the universe of it's creation, even if you are still partially in it. Plus they blew up the Earth they tried it on.

Also, I wasn't thinking of someone pushing it aside, I was thinking of Dr. Strange or Richards teleporting it out of harms way. Heck why not make a machine that mimics Kitty Pryde's phasing powers for a planetary scale; they turn the machine on when another Earth approaches, they turn it off after it's passed through; calamity averted.

It's very timely. And time is problem during the incurisons.
So tell me how someone can transport millions of people to another planet in another universe without big prep, coordination with protectors of this people and other arrangements?

@rubear: By being the smartest minds of their reality. All they had to do was obtain a powerful teleporter who could teleport planets and viola, or time-travel.

@outside_85: The problem is Hickman retconned Infinity Gauntlet, the original I.G Thanos had was Multiversal, and Thanos defeated Eternity with it (who has recreated the entire Multiverse). This whole ''only works in one Universe'' was done to nerf it and stray the storyline further.

The writer clearly had this finale in mind, unfortunately.

@outside_85: Good point. Gauntlet was Cap's idea, so maiby he don't knew... Actually wasn't such machine already used on rogue planet with desired effect?

Heh. I hope that comic writher will read this. Right now we see in Illuminaty's actions more desperation that smartness, that's bad.

@rubear: Thought it was Starks idea, it was just handed to Cap because he was the only one they trusted to wield it for some morally vague reason. (Remember, Cap was mind-wiped and excluded shortly after this when the others began considering bombs.)

@frozen: Hmm, I don't think that was the case, I know when JLA/Avengers happened and Darkseid got hold of it this happened:

And that was years before Hickman even appeared as a writer.

Well, i thought it was Cap's idea, "better paths, no detonations and genocides, we have IG, we can stop all and be clear" - that's his logic. And he was mind-wiped and excluded exactly because of this - IG was broken and he was against bombs, he became more of problem to other Illuminaty.

@outside_85: Well that was long after I.G, nearly 12 years - the original I.G defeated a Multiversal being.

@frozen: Which doesnt make the IG multiversal in effect as long as the being is in the right universe, no?

@outside_85: I don't think so, a Multiversal being should've defeated a Universal being if that held true.

this mad me laugh. thank you :)

Using the IG wasn't stupid at all. With no time left what else would they do? Let 2 universes just die including their own?

Teleporting the alternate earth out of harms way would also end up killing everyone on it. Think about what would happen to us if our Earth was teleported somewhere else.

The phasing the Earth thing also would not work as the two earth pretty much phase into each other anyways during the 8 hour incursion. Plus it isn't the Earths that destroy each other, the Earth is just the point where it happens. Once it passes, the universes will do the collision and I really doubt they can phase an entire universe.

We've already seen what time travel does to the Marvel and other universes. All it might do is make things even worse. The greatest minds, The Illuminati, know much better than this.

I'm pretty sure thats the point. With that said I think Hickman needs to move on to another problem for a bit. New Avengers has gotten way too repetitive and the whole incursion thing has gotten stale. I know its the whole point of the book but I thought the illuminati/new avengers would be dealing with other stuff on the side......

EDIT: And not sure what the infinity gauntlet discussion is about since I haven't read the whole thread but if its about the gems shattering, Hickman confirmed that was because cap failed and not the gems.

Well, it's just not that simple.

Think fast. With Tony and Richards on the team, they should already have had some kind of idea stored in case of a huge celesital object coming towards Earth.

How would that kill anyone when people seem to teleports all the time with no difficulty.

The Earths are the crunch points between universes, if they collide, both universes will end. And why would it not work when nearly nothing can actually touch Pryde if she's phased?

@outside_85 Think fast? That's exactly what they did when they decided to use the Infinity Gauntlet. It was the best choice they had I don't see why they wouldn't use it. Plus they had no prior knowledge on the incursions and didn't know how it worked. Them thinking of something else might have just killed the entire 616 universe.

Okay let's say the Earth gets teleported somewhere else in the universe say near Pluto. Would we be alive for much longer?

Like I said, the Earth's pretty much phase into each other anyways during an incursion forming a shared one. Phasing it through would make no difference at all. It would just slip right past our universe with the rest of their universe unless you can somehow phase their entire universe to avoid it from colliding with our own. Which of course is also not a proven method.

They went for the solution that happened to be nearest to them and the one they knew carried a risk of not working at all.

Why Pluto? Why not just onto the other side of the Earth heading towards it?

You assume here that all phasing is the same. Look, in DC their multiverse is essentially built up on frequencies everything runs on, what the incursions are doing is slowly approaching having the same frequency, when they reach it, they suddenly occupy the same exact space on an atomic level and annihilate each other. Vibrate the 616 universe a little and the other Earth will never hit the same frequency.

@outside_85: Yeah it did carry a risk of course but they know how powerful the Gauntlet is and they've all seen what it can do. That Gauntlet is more powerful than anything they can create and whatever it was they could create would carry more risk than using what they did.

I was just using it as an example. Move the Earth out of it's axis and everything will start to go out of wack.

Is that really how incursions were explained to happen? I honesty don't remember and my bad if it is. Either way it's not a proven tactic which is why they built the bridge in the first place so they can observe what the other universes are doing. Unless it is proven, why would they risk the state of 2 universes when they already have the means to save both?