Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been away from comic vine a while. Lots of reasons... Hadn't planned on coming back just yet, but the "Avengers vs. X-Men" thing has happened.... sigh... So, rather than saying what's on my mind, I thought I'd just sort of present the story arc with different dialogue... I hope it speaks for itself. Just read the panels in order. I hope the point is made.

  1. Provide free food to the starving.

  2. Provide clean and free energy to the planet

  3. Reduce crime

  4. Bring peaceful resolution to wars

  • The Avengers can't approve of all this... this.... um... making the earth nearly perfect, so they decided to continually attack mutants bearing the Pheonix Force, or as Reed Richards put it, "The only ones getting hurt here are YOU because you keep poking them with a stick.)

And here we are.... The inevitable 'Pheonix Force Going Bad' thing... No, surprise. And fortunately Captain America and the Avengers hurried things along by illegally attacking people who had broken NO laws....

These Marvel Events are SO forced... They want a 'Super neato torpedo kewl battle' so they force the characters (that we know and love) to act OUT of character, JUST so they can get into a fight that makes no sense.

  • Wolverine betraying mutants

  • Captain America invading another country without the U.S. making a formal declaration of war... This is something that the icon of liberty and the American Way just would never do... Sure, Tony Stark would do this, but not Captain America.

  • The Thing (Ben Grimm) giving Namor an extra kick because he was possessed by a cosmic force and went a little crazy... Gosh, didn't Ben Grimm experience something like that only months ago? (on the Marvel time scale)

  • Scott Summers COMPLETELY forgetting how bad the Pheonix Force can and how it can.. well, basically destroy everything...

  • The Avengers parking themselves about 20 feet from the Jean Grey School for mutants... and then.. and then... (are you ready for it?) Frenzy (angry wench / newer X-Man) calls Moon Knight crazy (which he IS) and..... HE ATTACKS HER. Gosh, that is so very like the Avengers. Someone calls you a name (and they're accurate) and you break the law and assault them... And then we have Avengers fighting mutant children because someone called Moon Knight crazy.... Yeah, that sounds reasonable...

Well, there's other stuff, but I have to go cook dinner

#1 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio

It's terrible and should be ignored in the future.

Except in the case of Thor battles. Thor gets as his ass kicked at least three different times, and I entirely approve. I'll be posting the scans of him getting beat down for months to come.

They keep calling it the comic event of the decade or some nonsense, and it's actually really quite bad.

#2 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate the big-summer cross-over events that both companies seem to be all about anymore. The last one I remember actually liking was Infinity Gauntlet. I will give some props to Civil War for at least being a cool concept, even though I felt it was executed rather poorly. The rest of them have been schlock from the get go.

#3 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moonchilde: Annihilation was one of their best but its continually over looked because Marvel wanted to showcase Civil War which ended up being pointless in the long run while Annihilation completely altered the status quo of cosmic Marvel in ways that are still being felt today.

#4 Posted by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: Haven't read Annihilation, in large part because (like you said) the year it came out Marvel kind-of pushed it aside in favor of showcasing Civil War.

Civil War, as I mentioned before, was a very cool concept executed poorly. What started out as a potentially interesting conflict of ideologies quickly devolved into "Iron Man is teh evil." What few truly interesting changes that occurred during it (Spider-Man revealing his identity), were ret-conned within a year. All-in-all Civil War was wasted potential, but it was still better then the events that followed.

"World War Hulk" & "Secret Invasion" are 2 of the worst comic stories I've ever read. "Dark Avengers/Siege" wasn't that bad but over all kindof 'meh'. I haven't bothered with crossovers since then.

#5 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

OP summed up Avengers vs X-men

#6 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moonchilde: World War Hulk started well it just kind of fizzled out somewhere in the middle and secret invasion didn't really make any sense when you think about all the people in the Marvel universe that should have literally been able to sniff out the fact that that people they've known for years suddenly didn't smell human. People like Wolverine or Daredevil should have been able to just walk in a room and say "Hey did any of you notice Spider Woman isn't a human anymore?" And it was weird to see everyone acting all surprised that the shape-shifting aliens that have been trying to conquer Earth for pretty much the entire time there have been super heroes disguised themselves and tried to conquer Earth, like it was out of character or something. It'd be like being surprised by a convicted rapist going out and raping someone.

#7 Edited by Moonchilde (1601 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@Moonchilde: World War Hulk started well it just kind of fizzled out somewhere in the middle and secret invasion didn't really make any sense when you think about all the people in the Marvel universe that should have literally been able to sniff out the fact that that people they've known for years suddenly didn't smell human. People like Wolverine or Daredevil should have been able to just walk in a room and say "Hey did any of you notice Spider Woman isn't a human anymore?" And it was weird to see everyone acting all surprised that the shape-shifting aliens that have been trying to conquer Earth for pretty much the entire time there have been super heroes disguised themselves and tried to conquer Earth, like it was out of character or something. It'd be like being surprised by a convicted rapist going out and raping someone.

Lol. Very true. There was so much wrong with Secret Invasion. Personally I also didn't get why the Skrulls kept the heroes they had captured alive either. Other then them being an entire supposedly advanced race that collectively suffers from what I call "super-villain syndrome." Well that and a convenient (bad) way of resurrecting Mockingbird.

#8 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700 said:

OP summed up Avengers vs X-men

What does that mean? "OP"?

#9 Posted by TheAcidSkull (15912 posts) - - Show Bio

@greenteaforme: what do you have against thor?

#10 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29330 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@moywar700 said:

OP summed up Avengers vs X-men

What does that mean? "OP"?

Original Poster.

Or original post. Depends on the context.

#11 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123: Ah. Thank you.

#12 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Hilarious!

(especially the green font explanation...)

Seriously, pretty much the event in a nutshell.

#13 Posted by ColonelRunAway (369 posts) - - Show Bio

Out of all the battles and bloodshed, the real hero of AvX would turn out to be OP.

#15 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

This event is worse than Ultimatum.

#16 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: I don't understand your hangup on laws. The entire idea of superheros is predicated on breaking the law. If Cyclops or Captain America were concerned about laws, they'd have hired attorneys and contacted the appropriate law enforcement agencies.

#17 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

This is ten million times better and more well thought out than AvX or any Marvel comic in the past year.

#18 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: Hey man... My own stupidity really. I posted originally by going to the page for avengers vs. x-men. then later I came back and.. couldn't find the page. I know that sounds idiotic, but I thought maybe I hadn't posted it properly... Sooooo, I decided to do it in my blog instead... At that time, I also realized that what I'm saying is about much more than just The Avengers vs. X-Men story, but rather, it applies to most of the Mavel events that come out today... Marvel has to make characters act OUT of character so they can force these wars or events.... As such, I thought general discussion might be a better place for this anyway...

So, I'm sorry about the repost... I'll ask an admin to lock up the other page...

#19 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm:

No worries, I was just curious, you know that dreadful feeling when you think you've missed something?

#20 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

@Timandm: I don't understand your hangup on laws. The entire idea of superheros is predicated on breaking the law. If Cyclops or Captain America were concerned about laws, they'd have hired attorneys and contacted the appropriate law enforcement agencies.S

So, you're saying.... Super Heroes aren't concerned with breaking laws?

That seems counter-intuitive to me. I think Spider-Man stops purse snatchers and muggers because it is against the law to snatch purses or steal from people.

I think Batman tracks down murderers because it is not only wrong to murder, but against the law.

Now, you could argue that The Punisher or Rorsharch isn't all that concerned about the law, but then they are not a super-heroes, but rather, anti-heroes. Sure, they are protagonists, but they're not exactly noble.

So, you're saying that if Cyclops was concerned with the law, he would have contacted the appropriate law enforcement agency... Well, first of all, HE DID... Utopia is a country. Utopia is not a part of the United States. So, Cyclops contacted everyone on Utopia through Emma Frost...

Now, when you say if Cap was concerned with the law he would have contacted the appropriate...... Well, that's exactly my point. He DIDN'T. He didn't do that at all. What would happen if say, Captain America flew over to Japan, landed on their soil, and said, "Give me the daughter of the Japanese Prime Minister! Do it now, I'm NOT asking!"

Seriously, what do you think would have happened? Captain America is recognized as an authority within the United States. The president appointed Captain America and, in fact, refused to accept Cap's resignation. So, Cap does have a limited amount of authority within the boundaries of the United States... But he can't just go to any other country in the world and give them orders; at least, not without a formal declaration of war by the Congress of the United States. And since the President of the United States does not have the power to declare war on another country (because that power resides solely with congress) then not even the President can 'officially' send Captain America to attack another country. That requires a congressional declaration of war, or it has to be a covert operation that the U.S. government will deny all knowledge of.

By going to Utopia, threatening to take one of their citizens against her will, and attacking, what Captain America and the Avengers did was, quite simply, an act of war... And technically, it was an act of war by the United States, against the country of Utopia. The reason it is an act of war by the United States, is that military resources of the U.S. were provided and used for the assault on Utopia. That was a cloaked SHIELD carrier, with SHIELD personnel, that brought the Avengers to Utopia... And the men flying the Jets that attacked Utopia, were members of the united States Military. And those jets belonged to the United States Military... How would Japan have reacted if Cap ordered American fighter pilots to attack Japan because they refused to give him one of their members?

You are right when you say Cap wasn't concerned with the law.... That is one of the points I'm making... It saddens me to see Cap, an ICON of liberty and Justice, used like this...

#21 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: I get that dreadful feeling everyday... :-)

#22 Posted by feebadger (1336 posts) - - Show Bio

Genius. Pure and simple genius.

#23 Edited by Guardiandevil83 (4509 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@Crash_Recovery said:

@Timandm: I don't understand your hangup on laws. The entire idea of superheros is predicated on breaking the law. If Cyclops or Captain America were concerned about laws, they'd have hired attorneys and contacted the appropriate law enforcement agencies.S

So, you're saying.... Super Heroes aren't concerned with breaking laws?

That seems counter-intuitive to me. I think Spider-Man stops purse snatchers and muggers because it is against the law to snatch purses or steal from people.

I think Batman tracks down murderers because it is not only wrong to murder, but against the law.

Now, you could argue that The Punisher or Rorsharch isn't all that concerned about the law, but then they are not a super-heroes, but rather, anti-heroes. Sure, they are protagonists, but they're not exactly noble.

So, you're saying that if Cyclops was concerned with the law, he would have contacted the appropriate law enforcement agency... Well, first of all, HE DID... Utopia is a country. Utopia is not a part of the United States. So, Cyclops contacted everyone on Utopia through Emma Frost...

Now, when you say if Cap was concerned with the law he would have contacted the appropriate...... Well, that's exactly my point. He DIDN'T. He didn't do that at all. What would happen if say, Captain America flew over to Japan, landed on their soil, and said, "Give me the daughter of the Japanese Prime Minister! Do it now, I'm NOT asking!"

Seriously, what do you think would have happened? Captain America is recognized as an authority within the United States. The president appointed Captain America and, in fact, refused to accept Cap's resignation. So, Cap does have a limited amount of authority within the boundaries of the United States... But he can't just go to any other country in the world and give them orders; at least, not without a formal declaration of war by the Congress of the United States. And since the President of the United States does not have the power to declare war on another country (because that power resides solely with congress) then not even the President can 'officially' send Captain America to attack another country. That requires a congressional declaration of war, or it has to be a covert operation that the U.S. government will deny all knowledge of.

By going to Utopia, threatening to take one of their citizens against her will, and attacking, what Captain America and the Avengers did was, quite simply, an act of war... And technically, it was an act of war by the United States, against the country of Utopia. The reason it is an act of war by the United States, is that military resources of the U.S. were provided and used for the assault on Utopia. That was a cloaked SHIELD carrier, with SHIELD personnel, that brought the Avengers to Utopia... And the men flying the Jets that attacked Utopia, were members of the united States Military. And those jets belonged to the United States Military... How would Japan have reacted if Cap ordered American fighter pilots to attack Japan because they refused to give him one of their members?

You are right when you say Cap wasn't concerned with the law.... That is one of the points I'm making... It saddens me to see Cap, an ICON of liberty and Justice, used like this...

I think he/she was saying that Super-Heroes don't follow the law period, as a whole. How many civil rights has Batman violated? Hacking peoples cells, computers, ect. Beating people half to death. I mean, everyone from Superman to Spider-man has broken just as many laws as they've enforced. Dosen't Superman live in the United States illegally? And if he were a united states citizen, how many other countries as he flown to without the proper paperwork and evidence that he is warranted to be there? What about Spider-man tangling human's hundreds of feet in the air with his webbing? Not only is that potentially life-threating, it's humiliating. No super-hero follows basic rules governed by society, so why should it matter?

Also the dudes name is ''Captain America" you ever watch the Boondocks? ''We don't care about doing the right thing..we're America...we just keep doing the WRONG thing until it turns out RIGHT. lol

#24 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@Guardiandevil83 said:

@Timandm said:

@Crash_Recovery said:

@Timandm: I don't understand your hangup on laws. The entire idea of superheros is predicated on breaking the law. If Cyclops or Captain America were concerned about laws, they'd have hired attorneys and contacted the appropriate law enforcement agencies.S

So, you're saying.... Super Heroes aren't concerned with breaking laws?

That seems counter-intuitive to me. I think Spider-Man stops purse snatchers and muggers because it is against the law to snatch purses or steal from people.

I think Batman tracks down murderers because it is not only wrong to murder, but against the law.

Now, you could argue that The Punisher or Rorsharch isn't all that concerned about the law, but then they are not a super-heroes, but rather, anti-heroes. Sure, they are protagonists, but they're not exactly noble.

So, you're saying that if Cyclops was concerned with the law, he would have contacted the appropriate law enforcement agency... Well, first of all, HE DID... Utopia is a country. Utopia is not a part of the United States. So, Cyclops contacted everyone on Utopia through Emma Frost...

Now, when you say if Cap was concerned with the law he would have contacted the appropriate...... Well, that's exactly my point. He DIDN'T. He didn't do that at all. What would happen if say, Captain America flew over to Japan, landed on their soil, and said, "Give me the daughter of the Japanese Prime Minister! Do it now, I'm NOT asking!"

Seriously, what do you think would have happened? Captain America is recognized as an authority within the United States. The president appointed Captain America and, in fact, refused to accept Cap's resignation. So, Cap does have a limited amount of authority within the boundaries of the United States... But he can't just go to any other country in the world and give them orders; at least, not without a formal declaration of war by the Congress of the United States. And since the President of the United States does not have the power to declare war on another country (because that power resides solely with congress) then not even the President can 'officially' send Captain America to attack another country. That requires a congressional declaration of war, or it has to be a covert operation that the U.S. government will deny all knowledge of.

By going to Utopia, threatening to take one of their citizens against her will, and attacking, what Captain America and the Avengers did was, quite simply, an act of war... And technically, it was an act of war by the United States, against the country of Utopia. The reason it is an act of war by the United States, is that military resources of the U.S. were provided and used for the assault on Utopia. That was a cloaked SHIELD carrier, with SHIELD personnel, that brought the Avengers to Utopia... And the men flying the Jets that attacked Utopia, were members of the united States Military. And those jets belonged to the United States Military... How would Japan have reacted if Cap ordered American fighter pilots to attack Japan because they refused to give him one of their members?

You are right when you say Cap wasn't concerned with the law.... That is one of the points I'm making... It saddens me to see Cap, an ICON of liberty and Justice, used like this...

I think he/she was saying that Super-Heroes don't follow the law period, as a whole. How many civil rights has Batman violated? Hacking peoples cells, computers, ect. Beating people half to death. I mean, everyone from Superman to Spider-man has broken just as many laws as they've enforced. Dosen't Superman live in the United States illegally? And if he were a united states citizen, how many other countries as he flown to without the proper paperwork and evidence that he is warranted to be there? What about Spider-man tangling human's hundreds of feet in the air with his webbing? Not only is that potentially life-threating, it's humiliating. No super-hero follows basic rules governed by society, so why should it matter?

Also the dudes name is ''Captain America" you ever watch the Boondocks? ''We don't care about doing the right thing..we're America...we just keep doing the WRONG thing until it turns out RIGHT. lol

Yeah, that does make sense... Super Heroes often break the law to do what they do. I get that. I do think, however, it's a mistake to say they have a complete or absolute lack of regard for the law... I think most of them actually respect the intent or meaning of the law if not the letter of the law. When facing those who actually do have a total disregard for the law, The Joker for example, it can be impossible to stop them if one sticks to the letter of the law... I get that...

But usually, that kind of thing is done in silence or in a clandestine fashion. Batman, for example, when he taps cell phones without a warrant (as he'd obviously never be able to get one) he doesn't advertise the fact that he's doing it, nor does he use that evidence in a court of law, as it would obviously be inadmissible. Even the Punisher, who OBVIOUSLY breaks the law, doesn't do it openly....

But here, in this circumstance, we have "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", who in this current Marvel Universe, are supported and sanctioned by the U.S. goverment... and this U.S. law enforcement agency, The Avengers, are being open and blatant about their total disregard for the law....

And even beyond this, it is a rather difficult pill to swallow that Captain America suddenly has no regard for the law, or for the rights of countries to rule themselves....

Regarding The Boondocks, I've not seen that...yet... but I do like that saying you've posted... "We just keep doing the wrong things until it turns out right..." Damn that rings with the truth....

#25 Posted by Guardiandevil83 (4509 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@Guardiandevil83 said:

@Timandm said:

@Crash_Recovery said:

@Timandm: I don't understand your hangup on laws. The entire idea of superheros is predicated on breaking the law. If Cyclops or Captain America were concerned about laws, they'd have hired attorneys and contacted the appropriate law enforcement agencies.S

So, you're saying.... Super Heroes aren't concerned with breaking laws?

That seems counter-intuitive to me. I think Spider-Man stops purse snatchers and muggers because it is against the law to snatch purses or steal from people.

I think Batman tracks down murderers because it is not only wrong to murder, but against the law.

Now, you could argue that The Punisher or Rorsharch isn't all that concerned about the law, but then they are not a super-heroes, but rather, anti-heroes. Sure, they are protagonists, but they're not exactly noble.

So, you're saying that if Cyclops was concerned with the law, he would have contacted the appropriate law enforcement agency... Well, first of all, HE DID... Utopia is a country. Utopia is not a part of the United States. So, Cyclops contacted everyone on Utopia through Emma Frost...

Now, when you say if Cap was concerned with the law he would have contacted the appropriate...... Well, that's exactly my point. He DIDN'T. He didn't do that at all. What would happen if say, Captain America flew over to Japan, landed on their soil, and said, "Give me the daughter of the Japanese Prime Minister! Do it now, I'm NOT asking!"

Seriously, what do you think would have happened? Captain America is recognized as an authority within the United States. The president appointed Captain America and, in fact, refused to accept Cap's resignation. So, Cap does have a limited amount of authority within the boundaries of the United States... But he can't just go to any other country in the world and give them orders; at least, not without a formal declaration of war by the Congress of the United States. And since the President of the United States does not have the power to declare war on another country (because that power resides solely with congress) then not even the President can 'officially' send Captain America to attack another country. That requires a congressional declaration of war, or it has to be a covert operation that the U.S. government will deny all knowledge of.

By going to Utopia, threatening to take one of their citizens against her will, and attacking, what Captain America and the Avengers did was, quite simply, an act of war... And technically, it was an act of war by the United States, against the country of Utopia. The reason it is an act of war by the United States, is that military resources of the U.S. were provided and used for the assault on Utopia. That was a cloaked SHIELD carrier, with SHIELD personnel, that brought the Avengers to Utopia... And the men flying the Jets that attacked Utopia, were members of the united States Military. And those jets belonged to the United States Military... How would Japan have reacted if Cap ordered American fighter pilots to attack Japan because they refused to give him one of their members?

You are right when you say Cap wasn't concerned with the law.... That is one of the points I'm making... It saddens me to see Cap, an ICON of liberty and Justice, used like this...

I think he/she was saying that Super-Heroes don't follow the law period, as a whole. How many civil rights has Batman violated? Hacking peoples cells, computers, ect. Beating people half to death. I mean, everyone from Superman to Spider-man has broken just as many laws as they've enforced. Dosen't Superman live in the United States illegally? And if he were a united states citizen, how many other countries as he flown to without the proper paperwork and evidence that he is warranted to be there? What about Spider-man tangling human's hundreds of feet in the air with his webbing? Not only is that potentially life-threating, it's humiliating. No super-hero follows basic rules governed by society, so why should it matter?

Also the dudes name is ''Captain America" you ever watch the Boondocks? ''We don't care about doing the right thing..we're America...we just keep doing the WRONG thing until it turns out RIGHT. lol

Yeah, that does make sense... Super Heroes often break the law to do what they do. I get that. I do think, however, it's a mistake to say they have a complete or absolute lack of regard for the law... I think most of them actually respect the intent or meaning of the law if not the letter of the law. When facing those who actually do have a total disregard for the law, The Joker for example, it can be impossible to stop them if one sticks to the letter of the law... I get that...

But usually, that kind of thing is done in silence or in a clandestine fashion. Batman, for example, when he taps cell phones without a warrant (as he'd obviously never be able to get one) he doesn't advertise the fact that he's doing it, nor does he use that evidence in a court of law, as it would obviously be inadmissible. Even the Punisher, who OBVIOUSLY breaks the law, doesn't do it openly....

But here, in this circumstance, we have "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", who in this current Marvel Universe, are supported and sanctioned by the U.S. goverment... and this U.S. law enforcement agency, The Avengers, are being open and blatant about their total disregard for the law....

And even beyond this, it is a rather difficult pill to swallow that Captain America suddenly has no regard for the law, or for the rights of countries to rule themselves....

Regarding The Boondocks, I've not seen that...yet... but I do like that saying you've posted... "We just keep doing the wrong things until it turns out right..." Damn that rings with the truth....

We need people like you in office, I agree with everything here. But I guess power like that would take away your integrity. Absolute power and all. Yes that quote should be on every bit of american propaganda. Yes. We will invade your home. Why? It's wrong? So? We are america. And the rest. lol

#26 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@Guardiandevil83: People like you and I are a minority here in the U.S. Citizens who realize that out own government lies to us.... Even back in his day, Thomas Jefferson knew people became corrupt once in office. In his own way he suggested a change over about every twenty years....