Marvel 616 or Ultimate? and my introduction into comics.

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Xanthos

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#1  Edited By Xanthos

Hello fellow comic book admirer.

I'll give you a history of where I am from. I've read manga's for the longest, I've owned plenty of Shonen Jump and picked them up monthly. I've started out only reading the I's and Yu-Gi-Oh! [2004 or 2005. I was 11 or 12] but I explored the book more and more finding other great narratives. Today I will not be comparing Japanese story telling vs American story telling in relation to trades. I'm only interested in gathering your opinions if I should start reading Ultimate Marvel [From Ult Spider-Man #1] or read from the 616 Verse [and from where to start.]

I've already read Xmen essentials 1 and I didn't really enjoy it because it didn't have a constant narrative. The stories felt sporadic. I know or at least believe Marvel had corrected these and now attempt to tell one story over multiple issues. recently I've had the opportunity to read "Cataclysm" The main story and the Spider-man narrative and I must say I was impressed with the Spiderman Cataclysm "tie-in." From what I've seen I was impressed with Miles Morales and how his character changed from when I first read Miles in his initial run as Spiderman and in all honestly it made me interested in the character again. Too often I see characters become stagnant; not changing. Miles Morales has shocked me because his character displayed something I have yet to see in an american comic book, growth.

In the previous paragraph I may have been a bit hyper- or even hypocritical of American comics. I must ask: Does the ultimate universe have time slowed down like in the 616 universe? I do have an issue with all the "slow time" and how inconsistent it can be. For example if time moves slower in Marvel how can Barack Obama be president and Peter Parker not be old in age, like 60 or older? I do my best not to let this slow time affect my reading experience.

One could say I'm looking to immerse myself in the Marvel universe. This does not mean Marvel is better by any stretch of the imagination. I've tried my hand with Batman. Batman wasn't for me or maybe I haven't tried to discover the right story arc for me as I hear there are plenty of great Adventures with Batman but must all of them be so dark? I admit I like the dark stuff but I miss Robin at times, and Damion doesn't make me smile much. Admittedly again I haven't read much of Damion as Robin. As a child I liked Dick Grayson but now I kinda see him as a Boyscott --- not that there is anything wrong with being a boyscott --- I would say Dick Grayson could be a good role model for children. Jason Todd aka Red Robin would probably be the Robin that would interest me the most, but I'm not ready to go back to Batman yet but it is on my to read list (So is Earth 2 ... no more on that today).

I would like to thank Kickass 2 [Movie] for getting me back into reading comics. I liked the Sam Raimi Spiderman films, but Marvel films don't inspire me to go buy their comics. If Marvel plans on merging the two universe Film & 616/Ultimate into 1 I would advise against it because the average movie goer is not the same as an average comic reader. If I were to advise anything just make good content and don't spam a character into more than 2 or even 3 stories per month (at least for the sake of telling a cannon narrative)

I also read from Image and Vertigo (sometimes) I have no complaints from either company but again I'm new to both companies.

TL;DR

Which is Better 616 or Ultimate?

Where should I start reading in 616?

Does Ultimate universe contain "slow time"?

I'm also interested in reading some Cloak & Dagger, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Cable, any MvC you could recommend.

Thanks for your time ♥

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Guardiandevil83

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Small mistake. Tim Drake is Red Robin. Jason is Red Hood. And you don't have to worry. The classic way that American comics tell/told stories are way past dead. Longer arcs are the norm now. Ultimate would be a create place to start actually. After Cataclysm, everything will kinda be starting fresh. Apparenly lots of characters are going to die. :)

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Xanthos

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Whoops. My error with that Jason Todd / Tim Drake. I knew I was thinking of the third Robin. I just got the name mistaken. Thanks for correcting me :]

Spoiler Containing Wolverine (and Peter Parker) in Ultimate verse:
They killed Wolverine and then was like, Logan has a son. I'm made that they introduced a character with the same powers to replace a "void." That void could've been filled by utilizing another great character or somebody not-Wolverine like. I know they made a new Spiderman when Peter Parker passed. I hope this will not become a trend in the ultimate universe (killing off older characters and making "younger" counterparts.)

I'm going to start with Spiderman Ultimate #001 and go from there. I know next month I'm excited for Marvel.NOW Ms. Marvel #001 I thought she was in a comma from rogue.

Potential Spoiler from House of M, Question about Ms. Marvel
I've read that after the events of House of M. Two universes got merged? Is that why Ms. Marvel is about to live again?

Well I know my current reading list ;] Dive into Marvel Ultimate, slowly get into Marvels 616, and some of DCU pre-52 (Batwoman 3, Tim Drake.)

and are there opinions for Marvel.NOW I've read that Marvel.NOW was an answer to DCs New 52. Does that statement hold any bearing?

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Guardiandevil83

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#4  Edited By Guardiandevil83

I'm not gonna lie. I considered myself a Marvel guy, but since the new 52, I have far more DC titles. Lol

I love Redhood, Love Snyders Batman, love Aquaman. I was really into Justice League as well. I have simple taste which may be a sign of ignorance, but just give me some awesome fight scenes. I do enjoy a goid story, but I don't read comics for the deep, sophisticated, poerty of what lies within each page. I read it to see super-people beat the s--t outta other super-people.

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PeppeyHare

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@xanthos: The new Ms.Marvel book is not about Carol Danvers. It's about a brand new character. Carol is now Captain Marvel and has her own title

I personally like 616 a lot more than the ultimate universe. You could look up a list of Marvel Now! Titles and see what interests you. Some books I'd recommend are Daredevil,Hawkeye,Thor:God Of Thunder, Superior Spider-Man, and Black Widow.

Yes, the ultimate universe has "slow time". It's kinda needed in comics

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pinecone1510

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You should definitely read all of ultimate spider-man if you enjoy actual growth and changes in status quo.It has the same writer for the entire run and has one complete story where shit happens pretty much, relationship come and go, people that die stay dead,etc.Where as in the 616 stuff rarely change and when they do it's not for long.

As for the rest of the ultimate universe i just recommend reading the classics like the first two ultimates series or the mark millar x-men stuff.Most of the rest is either forgettable or plain bad.(ultimate x-men 41 being the exception cause it's a masterful single issue)

I would also recommend the Brubaker/Fraction run on immortal iron fist which is considered to this day the definitive iron fist run.

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Xanthos

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#7  Edited By Xanthos

@peppeyhare:

New Ms. Marvel. Alright. about Carol could you spoil/explain the Rouge/Carol Danvers this to me. Most my knowledge of these two characters come from Xmen cartoon (90's) which I watched last year and I know a lot can happen in 10+ years.

A lot of people recommend Hawkeye & DD. I may pick up the latest DD run Volume n issue 1 or later (depending which issue they're on e.g. 944). The new Black Widow (cover) looks good. I heard a podcast and the book did peak my interest. I'll see about getting it once I finish East of West (aka a few days from now, 4 issues won't take long to read.) (Off topic) I'm semi-invested in East of West. I understand the basic story and over all I like it. I wonder if it'll do something memorable though.

Peppy could you explain why "slow time". It's kinda needed in comics and differentiate why it is not defiantly needed. Feel free to use opinions ad personal bias. (I bolded because I primarily would like to know your thoughts on these more than the facts of Rogue/Carol Danvers)

EVERYTHING I WROTE WAS DELETED POST THIS QUOTE!!!!! (most likely due to a slash mark. I'm attempting to rewrite everything as it was when it was fresh in my mind. 45 minutes of typing went to waste.... The stuff I had written pass this mark was more insightful.... and writing defiantly consider the following a "rebuild" and may be missing pieces.)

(at) Marvel

Kamala Khan is just an ordinary girl from Jersey City--until she is suddenly empowered with extraordinary gifts. But who truly is the all-new Ms. Marvel? Teenager? Muslim? Inhuman? Find out as she takes the Marvel Universe by storm, and prepare for an epic tale that will be remembered by generations to come.

Why would Kamala being Muslim affect anything. Usually writers do not like to use real world religions in comics, and do their best to avoid it. Most likely they won't even show her being a practicing Muslim, like how Marvel & DC handle religion. They may say a character is a Catholic/Christian and belongs to a certain faith but will not display them practicing it. Superman for example is said to be a Christian but I haven't seen him really practice it. Though practicing a religion is also difficult to define. I will not go into my issues with religion in this thread. I like Night Crawler he is open with his beliefs and I know Wolverine and Batman can have a hard time struggling with their beliefs. Also characters are influenced by the writers. I think Bruce Wayne holds Franks Millers beliefs and that Frank Miller allowed Bruce to be the epitome of what he believes while also entertaining people with his works of Batman.

No Caption Provided

At Pinecone

I plan on reading all of Ultimate Spiderman and I have incentive to keep reading. All-New Ultimates is a book I plan to buy and read monthly. Cloak & Dagger [I want them to keep a bit of ambiguity with these two. I don't want to know more "origin" stuff I want them to remain friendly and mysterious while also seeing them age.]. I love Morales. Girl with bubblegum. Spiderwoman is becoming Black Widow that is interesting.

Source of info: IGN: The Ultimate Universe: Not Dead Yet

(inserts insightful mask (slash) costume and stuff about being a hero (or villain)) I'll add this to the list of articles to write. (I had stuff written but got erased.)

Pinecone do you suggest I skip Ult. Fantastic Four?

I hope to see Luke Cage in the Iron Fist book and interested in reading his struggles and if he'll meet up with Ryu (Street Fighter, Capcom. I know more than to hope for unannounced crossovers that probably won't be good based off of prior history.)

I actually have a reading list thanks to your suggestions. Thank you Guardian, Peppy and Pineco.

Feel free to continue discussions.

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pinecone1510

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#8  Edited By pinecone1510

As for ultimate fantastic four i would also just recommend the mark millar stuff he did the first six issue and then came back for a year from #21 to 32(+annual with ult inhumans) where he did some cool stuff with namor, doom and a touching the thing story.But it's most notable for being the story that gave birth to marvel zombies.
And it might seem like i love Mark Millar and only his stuff but in reality his chops severely declined after that.Reason he was so good and why he flurished at the time was because the hole point of the ultimate universe was to have a corner in the marvel universe where the status quo can be changed and where you could do pretty much what you wanted.Millar's all about big ideas and not tight storytelling which lead to some fun and exciting story's.
And about the slow time i gotta say that that ult spider-man really was slow but it didn't matter because they wanted peter parker to stay in high school the whole run(100+ issues).But again it's all about what happens and not about him not aging.

What lead to the downfall of the ultimate line of books both in quality and sales was that they seemed to have forgotten why it was created in the first place which was to allow creators to bring these all new ideas to tried and true characters.But because of the success of ult spider-man which took old villains and concept from before and made them feel new and fresh again(which only BMB was able to master) every other book was given the same thing bringing old villains from the 616 universe that they thought the people would like but because the writers never stayed too long there was never a clear vision on any of the other titles.Let's hope that after cataclysm(now the second reboot of the whole line) they can get it right.
Also awesome that Brian Michael Bendis has been on ult spider-man since 2000 that's 14 years and once his run will be over i have no doubt in my mind that his run will be considered the definitive one for spider-man either it be Peter or Miles.

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PeppeyHare

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@xanthos: Rouge lost her Ms.Marvel powers a while ago. She's back to just the touching/absorbing power. Carol ditched Ms.Marvel, and took the Captain Marvel mantle, to honor the original CM, Mar-Vell.

"Slow time" is needed in comics, because these characters are created to last for generations. Kids in twenty years, should get to experience Spider-Man just like we did. You asked earlier how Barack Obama could be president in Marvel, without Spidey being like 50. They're constantly pushing up the birthdate/events of these characters. I don't think a lot of people want to read about a 60 year old Spidey lol.

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hyperbertha

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#10  Edited By hyperbertha

@xanthosMarvel 616 is definitely better than ultimate since its much bigger and is the real deal basically. Ultimate was okay until ultimatum. Damn you Jeph Loeb.

But I still strongly recommend reading through ultimate spiderman and x men. Really good.

As for where to jump in in 616 try creating another thread asking for jumping points, specifying how far back you're willing to go. I usually start from the 1985-90 period.

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hyperbertha

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@pinecone said:

You should definitely read all of ultimate spider-man if you enjoy actual growth and changes in status quo.It has the same writer for the entire run and has one complete story where shit happens pretty much, relationship come and go, people that die stay dead,etc.Where as in the 616 stuff rarely change and when they do it's not for long.

As for the rest of the ultimate universe i just recommend reading the classics like the first two ultimates series or the mark millar x-men stuff.Most of the rest is either forgettable or plain bad.(ultimate x-men 41 being the exception cause it's a masterful single issue)

I would also recommend the Brubaker/Fraction run on immortal iron fist which is considered to this day the definitive iron fist run.

?? <(^O^)>

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Xanthos

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#12  Edited By Xanthos

@Peppy

"Slow time" is needed in comics, because these characters are created to last for generations. Kids in twenty years, should get to experience Spider-Man just like we did. You asked earlier how Barack Obama could be president in Marvel, without Spidey being like 50. They're constantly pushing up the birthdate/events of these characters. I don't think a lot of people want to read about a 60 year old Spidey lol.

If the editors or writers are always pushing dates around does that not make for inconsistencies containing plot [for the sake of History]? I can understand a few characters being able to age slower such as Wolverine and Nick Fury (616). It can be intimating to get into to a story with a long and nondefinitive history. I would like to see characters age and mature. (I haven't read any comics with Hope Summers yet) but I see pictures of her and Cable, yet she grows up while other people stay ageless. You've made the point that Marvel wants to keep the heroes "Ageless" but I've witnessed in the Ultimate Universe people getting killed off and replaced with another Character with similar powers. Why does Marvel rarely "pass the mantle" to another person. I've witnessed a 50 or 60 year old batman fight. Spiderman may be able to keep fighting until he is 50, but Marvel really doesn't seem to have a problem making new characters to replace dead ones or when a new school is opened. ( Admittedly part of me may be looking for an argument ;] or should I say an intellectual discussion. )

@Hyperbertha

Right now I'm going to read Ultimate Spiderman [Peter Parker] I plan to read through Ultimanum so I can understand peoples dislike for it.

I plan to go to 616 when I'm caught up with 1610. I plan on starting in 80's or early 90's and I plan on reading Clone saga [spiderman] secret wars | identity crisis?. I apologize if I'm wrong on a few of these arcs. I'm just starting to read these books. ^o^

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PeppeyHare

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@xanthos: the moving timeline doesn't really matter that much. It doesn't get in the way of good stories. The characters do age, but not past a certain point. (616 Peter started out at 16, and has been in his mid-late twenties for decades). Marvel is much more willing to replace and kill characters in the ultimate universe, because it's an alternate reality that not that many care about anymore. DC does the exact same thing with they're characters. You'll never see an elderly Batman or Flash, in main continuity.

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deactivated-60600b79ed2c5

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Ultimate Universe used to be awesome, to the point that i started to prefer Ultimate Universe characters like Spider-Man and Fantastic Four over their 616 counterparts.

Things have changed quite a bit since then though.

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pinecone1510

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@hyperbertha: i know some came back-ish cough...cough gwen stacybut could you refresh my memory on who came back cause i don't remember who else did(don't forget to spoiler block it).

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hyperbertha

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#16  Edited By hyperbertha

@pinecone said:

@hyperbertha: i know some came back-ish cough...cough gwen stacybut could you refresh my memory on who came back cause i don't remember who else did(don't forget to spoiler block it).

Well what other significant death is there?

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Xanthos

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#17  Edited By Xanthos
@peppeyhare said:

@xanthos: the moving timeline doesn't really matter that much. It doesn't get in the way of good stories. The characters do age, but not past a certain point. (616 Peter started out at 16, and has been in his mid-late twenties for decades). Marvel is much more willing to replace and kill characters in the ultimate universe, because it's an alternate reality that not that many care about anymore. DC does the exact same thing with they're characters. You'll never see an elderly Batman or Flash, in main continuity.

(You made a good point with the ultimate universe.) That makes me a bit sad :[ Even if I don't like the direction Marvel and DC decided to handle time they can create some phenomenon stories that I am able to look pass the "flaws" in each continuity.

I'm not sure if my dislike for the ageless universe comes from my original start reading Manga where things are usually definitive and time moves at a normal pace and characters are giving the opportunity to age but one of my favorite books: Kickass an American comic have a great narrative and the hero learns how to be a hero.

Anywhoot I do not control the writers or editors @marvel so my complaining won't fix anything. lol. At least I've had the opportunity to bring up my concerns and have someone respond to them ^^;

tl;dr. Marvel is good despite a few flaws.

Peppy when did you start reading books? (year, not age.)

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pinecone1510

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Xanthos

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I think this is the last post I can make today [until I reach 25 post]

How is it that these characters can die and be resurrected again such as Jean Grey, Night Crawler, Gwen Stacy, Wade Wilson [He has a power, exception to the rule of death], Norman Osbourne, Peter Parker and others it hasn't happened recently iirc? Marvel doesn't have Dragonballs or anything.

marvel.wikia.com/Category:Formerly_Deceased

I could see lazy writing as an answer... but I wouldn't want to accept it.

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hyperbertha

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@pinecone: ? the second one not significant to me and the first one well how can he possibly come back when he's the protagonist and the series ended with his death?