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#1 Edited by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

Just interested to see opinions, No advocating it though, simply a debate. Watcha think?

Stealing, Or sharing.

Is it, Right Or Wrong.

Do the police do enough to counter Piracy?

#2 Edited by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

Stealing. Absolutely. Not commenting on the morality, but taking something without paying is stealing. It isn't sharing, it's not like you are passing one copy around and then getting it back. It's stealing.

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#3 Posted by roboadmiral (549 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically no. It's copyright violation. Which is not to say that it's morally or legally okay, but it's not actually stealing.

#4 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: Cool, But, what if the original owner bought it, and then put it onto the net? Sharing it with others. Let me say this way.

is it illegal for me to give you a comic, then you print that comic yourself and give it to your friends for free? You are not making a profit from that, they are getting it for free though, but it was yours to begin with, and you are only giving them "ink" from a scanner.

#5 Edited by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:

It doesn't matter whether you profit from it or not. The person who doesn't profit is the creator of the work. People can word it however they want. but if I have a copy of something someone made, and they didn't get paid, I stole it.

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#6 Edited by russellmania77 (15758 posts) - - Show Bio

not today cuz its free comic day

#7 Edited by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: I agree with that, apart from it is simplistic, way to simplistic, If I picked up a comic off the floor that I never paid for, did I steal it?

By UK law, it is actually theft mind you

#8 Posted by blackadamFTW (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically....yes.

#9 Posted by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:

Am I simplistic? Or do people often turn to semantics to justify their actions? The fact of the matter is that piracy is illegal. And taking something that is not intended to be free without paying for it is stealing. That isn't simplistic, it's simple. Big difference. So yes, picking something up that is not yours and taking it is technically stealing. If it was a wallet then it would be.

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#10 Posted by akbogert (3227 posts) - - Show Bio

The legal precedent tends to stem from duplication (for comics and a great many other things). The first purchaser buys a license for personal use of the artifact; duplication of the file breaches that contract. If a library is donated a copy of a book, and then one person at a time checks out the book, the library is operating legally; but if a library is donated a copy of a book, and then Xeroxes a dozen copies and distributes those, it has broken the law. Profit is irrelevant -- duplication is the key.

When something is torrented, it is being duplicated. Even if you can get a legal rephrasing that renders it technically not "stealing," it is still highly illegal, and certainly not "sharing."

#11 Edited by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: Funny, in UK law it really is stealing, but "piracy" or "torrenting" has never actually been classed as Theft, even though it falls under every-thing that it needs to be, simply beacuse of the arguments that shows that it is sharing, it is so strange! But yeah...It is theft, in reality. Or is it...hmm. I dunno.

#12 Edited by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: So, we are making duplicating pixels illegal?

( I agreed with your post contrary to what you may think, just wana hear you explain this one :P )

#13 Posted by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:

I see it as a wording issue, as @akbogert mentioned:

Even if you can get a legal rephrasing that renders it technically not "stealing," it is still highly illegal, and certainly not "sharing."

Couldn't have said it better, really.

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#14 Edited by AweSam (7376 posts) - - Show Bio
@bumpyboo said:

@pyrogram:

It doesn't matter whether you profit from it or not. The person who doesn't profit is the creator of the work. People can word it however they want. but if I have a copy of something someone made, and they didn't get paid, I stole it.

That's... not actually true. If I buy a comic, it's mine. If I feel like giving it to a friend, then another, then another, and so on. No one's stealing.

#15 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: True, but it is not highly illegal, that is taking it a bit far :P

#16 Posted by akbogert (3227 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: I don't know what "we are making [it] illegal" means. It is illegal. Granted, the law as it stands now has actually been made a bit of a mockery of -- I recently read (I don't recall where) a case in which it was determined that right of first sale basically does not exist in the digital realm, and that even deleting your file in the process of giving one copy of it to another person still qualifies as duplication and therefore still qualifies as a breach of contract.

And for what it's worth, breaking something down into its integral parts really doesn't prove anything. Calling a digital comic "pixels" is akin to calling the complete works of Shakespeare "words" or the masterpieces of Rembrandt "oil." We are quite clearly talking about duplicating intellectual property -- the specific configuration of those pixels, if you must.

#17 Posted by Cassidy_ORourke (201 posts) - - Show Bio

it's stealing and it's wrong.

#18 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm no legal expert, but torrenting is essentially stealing to me, however wordy you lot want to get. Possessing copyrighted stuff without paying for it isn't right.

I admit, as a younger reader, and when I was first introduced to torrents by a friend, I torrented the hell out of several comics. Years later though, I'm still trying to buy those comics I torrented, partly because I enjoyed them the first time and partly out of conscience, I guess.

#19 Edited by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram said:

@bumpyboo: True, but it is not highly illegal, that is taking it a bit far :P

Not according to the government:

“Copyright infringement is a serious economic crime. It is important that the penalties available are proportionate to the harm caused to UK industries and that they act as an effective deterrent. For this reason we intend to consult on introducing exceptional summary maxima (above£5,000) in the Magistrates’ Courts for offences of online and physical copyright infringement.”

Source:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/consult-gowers36.pdf

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#20 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: I don't care about the Gov, its not serious, the police do not care two sh*ts, That is what makes it serious, when people actively enforce it.

#21 Posted by akbogert (3227 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: The lack of enforcement does not make it any more or less legal.

"Highly illegal" means simply that there is not even a remote case to be made that it might not be illegal. It absolutely is.

#22 Posted by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram:

Well the government decide the laws, so you probably should care. Regulations are tightening all the time, with more and more companies actively pursuing those who violate copyright. There was a time when the police mostly went after the big targets like professional piraters, people who distribute on a large scale. But lately, the trend seems to be shifting toward increasing the power of legal authorities to pursue individual home users. Shutting down torrent sites is proving unsuccessful thanks to the vast amount of proxies - Pirate Bay is a classic example, the main site may have been taken down but there are SO MANY PB proxy sites. So the way they look at it, the way to stop piracy is to go after the people downloading it. Granted, they can't arrest everyone. But past a certain point, they wouldn't need to.

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#23 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: If the police do not care, it is not even illegal in my view, I cannot remember the last time I saw the police knocking down a door arresting somebody for downloading Iron-Man.

#24 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: The police don't actively enforce that law at-all these days, seriously, they don't. It is not on their priorities at-all.

#25 Edited by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram said:

@bumpyboo: The police don't actively enforce that law at-all these days, seriously, they don't. It is not on their priorities at-all.

They don't yet. But that was the point of my post - they are being pushed and pushed to do so.

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#26 Edited by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: No they are not, not by the seniors. They will never-EVER do so, they simply lack the resources.

#27 Posted by akbogert (3227 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: The word "illegal" literally means "against the law." Your "view" is irrelevant as to the actual legality. It is illegal.

And as a matter of fact, it wouldn't take long for you to Google a variety of cases where the police did just that -- broke in and seized computers and charged people preposterous amounts of money for torrenting.

#28 Edited by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: I was/Am involved with the police for the last 4 years, they don't care.( As much about it as other crimes, obviously :P )

#29 Posted by BumpyBoo (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram said:

@bumpyboo: No they are not, not by the seniors. They will never-EVER do so, they simply lack the resources.

This is not about your average copper on the street. Companies are obtaining IPs and prosecuting privately. So while it is still low down on any beat policeman's list of priorities, that does not mean that arrests will not go ahead.

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#30 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram said:

No they are not, not by the seniors. They will never-EVER do so, they simply lack the resources.

Wrong

#31 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@gambler: UK perspective. They don't have the resources, may be dif in the states.

#32 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@bumpyboo: Fact, but...It is down to the CPS, and if it is not worth their while, they will not do it, They are already over-burdened. And stretching them further will only cause the whole justice system to crumble. I think they will be reluctant to take up many cases.

#33 Edited by akbogert (3227 posts) - - Show Bio

The question was whether torrenting/piracy is stealing. The answer, I think indisputably, is "yes," or "something so similar that the distinction is irrelevant."

The secondary question was whether it is wrong or right.

As with any moral or ethical question, you will have people disagreeing. I point to an objective basis for morality as a reference and that standard says that stealing is always wrong. Other people, who have a more relativistic worldview, will dispute that, and it's a pointless argument because we won't be arguing from the same foundation, so we'll never see eye-to-eye.

That said, there's an argument to be made that even if stealing to, say, keep your children alive, may be if not "right" then at least understandable -- the lesser of two wrongs (the other being to let the children die). However stealing so that you can have fun is definitely not that kind of situation, and regardless of whether you're personally okay with it, there are no acceptable standards of morality which would classify piracy as "right."

#34 Posted by Pyrogram (41246 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: The lesser of two wrongs, is still a wrong - people may say, but your statement is actually really interesting, good point!

#35 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

What a complicated subject!

#36 Edited by Auralaria (479 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not done reading comments yet, but I'll do so, so I don't end up saying something about an outdated point.

#37 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (11954 posts) - - Show Bio

yes..simple as that

#38 Edited by pooty (11598 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: They took down the site that i was "sharing"comics from. Do you know of any good sites to "share"comics? (:

#39 Posted by jloneblackheart (5557 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@pyrogram: They took down the site that i was "sharing"comics from. Do you know of any good sites to "share"comics? (:

Don't even do it. While we will allow the morality discussion of comic piracy, it is against site rules to promote it.

So yeah, it's illegal according to most countries laws and illegal on CV. Just because a law isn't enforced doesn't mean it isn't illegal. Also, if the comic industry was as big as the movie or music industry, you would certainly see people be prosecuted and made examples of.

Regardless of the semantics or enforcement, think of it this way: If you are reading pirated copies, the creators are getting no compensation, it does not appear in sales numbers and low sales comics get canned.

Whatever reason you use to justify pirating comics in your head basically comes down to selfishness. You aren't considering the companies that produce them, the creators that make them or the paying fans who enjoy the work.

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#40 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Whatever reason you use to justify pirating comics in your head basically comes down to selfishness. You aren't considering the companies that produce them, the creators that make them or the paying fans who enjoy the work.

QFT.

#41 Posted by pooty (11598 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: While we will allow the morality discussion of comic piracy, it is against site rules to promote it.

understood

Whatever reason you use to justify pirating comics in your head basically comes down to selfishness.

I'm a collector not just a reader. if i buy a comic thinking it is good and it's garbage, I can't return it. Most retail stores allow returns if you don't like a product. My comic store does not. If i read it online and like it, I buy it at the store. If that is selfish.... i'm 100% fine with that.

#42 Posted by jloneblackheart (5557 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Assuming you're telling the truth, most people aren't going to go buy something they've already read, unless it was indeed astounding. For example, I have read tons of comics I liked or thought were pretty good, but it's a rare gem that I will go and get the trade because I know I'll want to read it again.

If you want to check something out, why not do it in store? I often flip through or even read most of an issue in my shop to check things out. No one is chasing me out because they know I provide them with plenty of business.

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#43 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

There really isn't any justification for torrenting comics -- whether you are the uploader or downloader. It is stealing.

You want comics as an industry to fail? Download torrents and not buy the books.

As for being penalized, it's dependent on the country but obtaining IP addresses isn't so easy (nor should it be). Someone visiting a torrenting site doesn't automatically mean they are downloading anything -- so it's a slippery slope for sure.

#44 Posted by pooty (11598 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: we differ on that. if i read a comic at a friends house or library and merely like it. i buy it. i order most books online, so i don't have a relationship with my comic store. Nonetheless, torrents is stealing.

#45 Edited by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a discussion that needs to be had. Here's a simpler one. Do you like comic books? Yes? Would you like to continue having the option to read them for the foreseeable future? Yes?

Then buy your damn comics.

#46 Posted by Aiden Cross (15575 posts) - - Show Bio

*shrugs* It's legal in my country to download. But in return we have a private copying tax on all media holders. So basically anything you can store information on costs extra, tablets, hard drives, mp3 players etc.

#47 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18355 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: well sadly sometimes people aren't left with a choice, it is stealing, but comics are sometimes not sold in some countries.

#48 Posted by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss said:

This isn't a discussion that needs to be had. Here's a simpler one. Do you like comic books? Yes? Would you like to continue having the option to read them for the foreseeable future? Yes?

Then buy your damn comics.

This.

#49 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, therefore..I'm a thief...

#50 Edited by RustyRoy (13554 posts) - - Show Bio

Btw borrowing comics isn't bad. Me and a friend of mine used to read each others comics.