#1 Edited by e3zombie (720 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I was talking to a friend of mine who also loves comics and like me has a monthly buying cycle of comics at his local comic book store.

Anyway we was on skpye and we got talking about retro comics, ones that you would not really be able to buy and read and if you did would cost the same as a car.

I told him I had everything from the early days of batman on my hard drive and we got into an argument about the ethics of downloading.

Now I come here to you to ask, do you think its wrong to download stuff you can no longer buy? such as early comics and what not.

#2 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

If I can buy some good comic books, I'll buy them.

If a comic is nowhere to be found, and I'm broke, I download it.

It's simple. we kill the Batman.

#3 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

for me the ethics depend on the ratio between acessability and damage to the author.

#4 Posted by Cap10nate (2485 posts) - - Show Bio

It is wrong to pirate/steal. It is the publisher's rightful property which you are taking without permission or providing consideration.

Online
#5 Posted by coolguyr99 (3019 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

#6 Posted by Billy Batson (58209 posts) - - Show Bio

Legally wrong, ethically it's up to you.

BB

#7 Posted by ALFMutant (158 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, it is because of piracy if I started to get into comics. I was introduced to DC because of Justice League Unlimited and Batman the Animated Series. After that I wanted to read about characters I liked but I could find nowhere older comics I wished to buy(comics shops really far way and they don't have everything).

I heard about digital comics and it was just what I was looking for, sadly some years ago, DC and Marvel didn't care about digital and it was practically impossible to buy digital only. But now, the industry is targeting this format. More easy to buy, more easy to read.

So what benefit more the industry? Less people pirate comics or using this to attract new buyers?

#8 Posted by e3zombie (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: This is pretty much same as me

#9 Posted by xybernauts (858 posts) - - Show Bio

#10 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@e3zombie: It's wrong to do anything illegal, but will everyone actually stop?

#11 Posted by Agent9149 (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. Yes it is. Don't try to justify it in any way.

#12 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

If I pirate, it's because I want to catch up on current ongoings without spending so much on trades that may or may not be in print. Then, once I catch up, I pay monthly.

#13 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that it becomes quite a bit more acceptable if its something you can no longer buy. I've never pirated a comic (or anything, for that matter) personally, but I don't have a problem with people doing it for comics that are no longer available for purchase.

#14 Posted by The_Tree (7773 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see much wrong with it. I think the worst case of comic piracy is downloading creator owned works.

#15 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes.

#16 Posted by skooks (205 posts) - - Show Bio

Legally it's always wrong. Ethically, that's another matter. If it's something a couple of decades old that you can't get hold of unless you own a mountain of money, for example, then how much money is being lost there? Who is it really hurting? If you can easily buy it however then don't be cheap, just buy it. Support the industry.

#17 Posted by War Killer (20359 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it hard to believe that you can't find old back issues in some trade paperback format. I'm not sure about comics like Batman's first appearance or say Superman's, but I was given a trade containing the first four issues of Captain America Comics which came out in the 40s for Christmas this past year. So the whole excuse to pirate old comics because you "can't find them" or they "cost the same as a car" seems a bit weak. I'm not saying that there aren't certain comics you can't find reprinted currently, but I know that you can find a lot of old reprinted comics in trade paper backs in most book stores, on eBay, at your local CBS, etc.
 
Bottom line, it's stealing and illegal. 
 
@skooks said:

Legally it's always wrong. Ethically, that's another matter. If it's something a couple of decades old that you can't get hold of unless you own a mountain of money, for example, then how much money is being lost there? Who is it really hurting? If you can easily buy it however then don't be cheap, just buy it. Support the industry.

I see where you're getting at, and while I most likely would agree that downloading an old comic from, say the 30s, is going to hurt the company that published it today, the issue is that if you say it's okay to break the law here and download old comics then why is it wrong to break the law and download new comics (which does hurt the companies)? You can't say it's okay to steal one thing and then say it's wrong to still another, it just doesn't work that way.
#18 Posted by Owie (3814 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's wrong.  I'm an artist, so I see it from the companies' point of view.  Illegal downloading is stealing intellectual property.  I don't want people to do it to me, and I don't do it to anyone else.  Using random images in a "fair use" sort of way is one thing, but entire comics is another.

#19 Posted by batkevin74 (11040 posts) - - Show Bio

@e3zombie: YES! The end

#20 Posted by turoksonofstone (13199 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

for me the ethics depend on the ratio between acessability and damage to the author.

Though stealing/buying a digital copy still leaves you empty handed.

#21 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally, I take the hardline stance and say yes, it's wrong.

However I also believe that copyright law (and not just for comics) is wildly outdated. As has been said, when you download something twenty, thirty years old that's completely out of print and has become (in physical form) a highly prized collector's item, you're not directly hurting anyone at all. I'm not saying that intellectual property is without value, but really, what tangible thing has been lost to the creator, publisher, or any owner of those physical books, if there is no legal way for people to acquire their work? As far as they're concerned, they're done making money off of it because they sold all the copies of it they planned on producing. No, it doesn't legitimize theft, but I feel that in an era characterized by things like iTunes and Amazon if a company can easily make digital versions of their content available to a wide and willing-to-pay audience and fails to do so, they're almost asking people to pirate. Once upon a time the difficulty of a second printing for a limited run was a legitimate financial excuse, but these days I just don't understand at all why digital versions aren't more readily available. To use one example, I can't comprehend why something as sought-after as Gail Simone's Deadpool run is a running joke among would-be collectors for the impossibility of securing it. Supply is ignoring demand, and it's no surprise a broken market leads to broken methods of procurement.

Anyway, again, I'll never actually condone piracy, but the industry is stabbing itself in the back with its outdated distribution chokehold.

#22 Posted by The Stegman (25166 posts) - - Show Bio

Ethically, I see nothing wrong with it, however, I wouldn't do it for the simple reason that I'd rather own a physical copy of the comic in my hand.

#23 Posted by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's wrong. To say that it's totally cool is to say that you have some sort of right to comics. I wouldn't go as far as to call it theft. It is not, it is copyright infringement. You want a thing, you ought to pay your way. They are not communal property.

#24 Posted by nintendork666 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

TPB's - duh!

#25 Edited by Manbehindthewires (344 posts) - - Show Bio

I buy all my comics, I want to support my local comic stores and support the culture and community that comes with it. That means buying new issues from stores and back issues from collectors. For me, it's all about the experience and pirating, no matter how I look at it, would take away from that. borrowing a comic or sharing a comic, or sending your downloads/download codes to a mate however, I feel neither strengthens nor damages the community, since you get something positive back (the experience) in exchange for the negative act of not financially supporting the seller. it kind of cancels out.

#26 Posted by e3zombie (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: what if in 70 years from now I want to read your stuff and cant buy it no more?

you would rather no one sees your work every again apart from the rich and the uber collectors?

I am also an artist and I would rather more people get to enjoy my work even if it meant not paying for it.

#27 Posted by Outside_85 (9650 posts) - - Show Bio

If you download it illegally then you are effectively robbing the publisher that's had the expense of making the book along with the artist, writer, inker and so on who spent hours making it (at the end of it you are taking a bit of their pay check).

#28 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18056 posts) - - Show Bio

i wish i could buy actual comics. i mostly order from amazon.

but Georgia( not the state) has no comic stores, AT ALL, if you manage to Find ONE comic it'll be in Georgian, which SUCKS, soooo.....

Online
#29 Posted by TDK_1997 (15005 posts) - - Show Bio

Well not so much.I was reading scans because my country doesn't translate or publish any comic books and until I started buying from the Internet I was downloading most of the titles I was reading.

#30 Edited by EdBlank (542 posts) - - Show Bio

Information cannot be held captive in 2013. Once one person digitizes it (whatever it is), an infinite number of perfect copies can be made FOR FREE. Versus this kind of supply, how can an "intellectual property" owner hope to charge the same price they would charge for a printed copy (which actually does cost them for paper, ink, presses, and bindery equipment. Not to mention trucks and planes used to ship all the books)? Google is the biggest company on Earth and they don't sell anything - to the work-a-day user. How is this possible? Simple, they thought of a way to monetize their sevice and they figured out who would foot the bill. Just like radio and TV before the web, give the content away to generate trafic, then charge advertiseres to show their ads to wide audiences. I don't know exactly how this would work in the case of DC or Marvel, but that's their cross to bear. All I know is information is traveling faster and faster. Trying to "own" it is a fool's errand. Record companies, publishers, movie studios, and anyone else who thinks they can control the flow of info better start brainstorming. I, too, am an artist. I would like to make a living doing art. If I can someday it will be more like church where well wishers pay because they believe in you, rather than being able to keep people from digesting my art unless they pay.

#31 Posted by Owie (3814 posts) - - Show Bio
@e3zombie said:

@Owie: what if in 70 years from now I want to read your stuff and cant buy it no more?

you would rather no one sees your work every again apart from the rich and the uber collectors?

I am also an artist and I would rather more people get to enjoy my work even if it meant not paying for it.

Copyright runs out after a certain number of years (depending on various details).  I'm fine with making copies after that period.  I also make a lot of work that is very much intended to be seen for free on the web.  But not everything.
#32 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

If you want comics to continue being published, buy them, end of story.

#33 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@Manbehindthewires said:

I buy all my comics, I wan't to support my local comic stores and support the culture and community that comes with it. That means buying new isues from stores and bck issues from collectors. for me, it's all about he experience and pirating, no matter how I look at it, would take away from that. borrowing a comic or sharing a comic, or sending your downloads/download codes to a mate however, I feel neither stengthens nor damages the community, since you get something positive back (the experience) in exchange for the negative act of not fnancially supporting the selller. it kind of cancels out.

This. Comic Store owners have a hard enough time trying to keep a roof over their head as is.

#34 Posted by Binski (647 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it wrong to take what's not yours?

#35 Posted by nightwing91 (3912 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes it's wrong to download them, you can try and justify it by saying it's out of print but that's not necessarily always the case. Marvel for example prints plenty of older stories in Omnibus format and other graphic novels, and DC while not utilizing that format as extensively has reprinted most early stories in the DC archive line and the Chronicle lines of graphic novels.So the argument you can no longer buy stories is invalid.And what actions would you take when the stories you download are eventually reprinted, you and the majority of other piraters aren't likely to race out to the comic shop/book store/Amazon/etc. on day 1 to buy something you've already previously read. It just hurts future possibilities for the industry.

So just because your actions aren't hurting anyone doesn't mean it's right. You wouldn't commit murder, rob a bank or etc you shouldn't break copyright laws. You can't pick and choose which laws your going to follow and which your going to break.

#36 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cap10nate said:

It is wrong to pirate/steal. It is the publisher's rightful property which you are taking without permission or providing consideration.

This.

@Billy Batson said:

Legally wrong, ethically it's up to you.

If we're free to make up ethics as it suits us, there might as well be no such thing.

Yes, pirating and stealing are wrong.

#37 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

It is right if you feel it is right. It is wrong if you feel it is wrong. It is better if you can convince most of your neighbors that you are right so you can get away with almost anything. You can pretty much do whatever if you live on top of a mountain that the police will have a hard time getting to or if you move from mountain to mountain like big foot.

#38 Posted by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes and other than Golden Age issues under 10 what comics cost as much as a car?

#39 Posted by Markus_Langbourn (387 posts) - - Show Bio

It's only wrong if you download comics that are good. 
 
Crap like All New X-Men, Superior Spider-Man, Justice League and Hickman's Avengers are fair game.

#40 Posted by Billy Batson (58209 posts) - - Show Bio

@minigunman123 said:

@Billy Batson said:

Legally wrong, ethically it's up to you.

If we're free to make up ethics as it suits us, there might as well be no such thing.

Yes, pirating and stealing are wrong.

Pretty sure people make their own moral/ethical choices.

BB

#41 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

@minigunman123 said:

@Billy Batson said:

Legally wrong, ethically it's up to you.

If we're free to make up ethics as it suits us, there might as well be no such thing.

Yes, pirating and stealing are wrong.

Pretty sure people make their own moral/ethical choices.

BB

You didn't understand what I said, but that's fine. Most people don't.

#42 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (18965 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAcidSkull said:

i wish i could buy actual comics. i mostly order from amazon.

but Georgia( not the state) has no comic stores, AT ALL, if you manage to Find ONE comic it'll be in Georgian, which SUCKS, soooo.....

Tell that to me. I live in India.

#43 Posted by e3zombie (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery: But thats just it, some comics can no longer just be paid for in a store or online dc or marvel store.

So I have to buy 200 batman comics off ebay from some random dudes that could cost me so much money its unreal AND DC dont get to see any of my money anyway.

This is not about modern comics im talking about stuff that simply is no longer made.

#44 Edited by Pyrogram (41140 posts) - - Show Bio

No, it is not wrong. It is just torrent sharing >.> Sharing is not illegal >.<

#45 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@e3zombie: If you can buy it, you should. If you can't get it, that's up to you.

#46 Edited by madtitan2112 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. stealing is wrong. It is not subjective, stealing is wrong even if you are broke or if you have a hard time finding an issue. You are only harming the industry you love by stealing the books. Whenever a book you like gets canceled this may very well be one of reasons why it failed. No one is going to spend their time and effort working on books if they do not get paid.