Is It PIS If It Happens All The Time?

The Flash, Superman and Wonder Woman get hit in every comic. Yet they all have feats to suggest that they should rarely get hit.

Wolverine has survived battles with the Hulk a few times. Does that mean that Wolverine is a good match up for Hulk? Or are all their battles PIS?

Thanos has consistently taking full power blast from Silver Surfer. Thanos has consistently hit a speeding Surfer. Does that mean Surfer is incapable of hurting thanos?

So how often does something have to happen before we STOP saying it's PIS?

Or does PIS happen in every comic repeatedly?

If a character can consistently hit people who are FTL. Do we assume the person has FTL combat speed?

If a character can consistently battled and injure planet busters...do we assume they are planet busters?

only if there's evidence to contradict it

Yes. Plot Induced Stupidity is still Plot Induced Stupidity regardless of how many times is happens. That goes for writer and all other induced stupidities.

Stupid is as Stupid does. It's as simple as that.

That was fast.

:)

The answer is contained in the battle forum rules. The example of Superman is given, in fact. There are literally scores of examples of Superman getting tagged by characters slower than him as mentioned. The rules clearly identify ALL those times as PIS. The fact that it happens more often than not is irrelevant, given Superman's clear feats over the years that show he can operate at that level of speed.

The same holds true for Thanos. He has consistent feats over the years that underscore his level of durability. Lesser showings then would be dismissed in the same fashion as lesser feats for Superman: PIS.

And the list goes on and on.

To be clear: a character should have clear, consistent feats that show he/she can operate at a level of durability or speed, or telepathy or reaction speed, etc.... that makes lower showings standout out as PIS.

Darkseid can fall down as many stairs as possible, and still take on the JL.

I don't see how the comparison. Stairs are high end OP. They can take anyone down.

IDK probably depends on if there are more instances that contradict the feats in question.

It's not always PIS...

How often PIS happens has no bearing on whether it's PIS or not. This is something certain fans of certain characters on this site cant seem to understand. And, the way you know it's PIS or not is by seeing whether that character has quantifiable feats or some other compelling logic to say that an event is not PIS.

The example of Superman is a very clear one. Superman gets tagged by slow (slower than FTL, street-levelers, etc) characters very often. But, we also have many examples showing us unambiguously that Superman is FTL. These are not "Superman tagged Flash, so Superman must be FTL", these are examples of him being able to see and react to things that are known to be travelling at light speed or faster. These are examples of him moving as a blur and speed-blitzing multiple opponents, examples of him moving so fast that everything around him is standing still. Examples of the narrator or trustworthy in-story character saying that he's FTL.

The main problem with PIS is that often you cant know for sure that it's PIS. But, you can certainly say that PIS is a possibility in many cases. What this means is just that when character A tags a speedster B who's FTL, you cant say for sure it's PIS, but you also cant use that feat to prove that character A is FTL himself... no matter how many times it happens. PIS is a major part of comicbook stories, which is why it happens all the time.

Also...

Not a battle

Flash , Superman and the Surfer all have feats of observing the world around them as stationary , which makes them getting tagged by people not as fast as themselves , ridiculous.

No mainstream version of Wolverine exists that hasn't been pierced by bullets . The Hulk being someone who operates on a scale where bullets are negligible in comparison , every time he's hitting Logan and not turning him to a red mist , that then has to be attributed to Wolverine's healing factor operating on a scale where his skin is instantly returning even as it is flayed off . Since again, even Logan at his regen God craziest wasn't quite that good , that makes that PIS

Thanos hitting a speeding Surfer is PIS given his own lack of speed feats . Thanos shrugging off damage is not, given his durability feats

Ultimately of course , the ambiguity in Comicvine rules and relatively lenient enforcement of said rules , such as they are , enable fans to write their own fan fiction of whatever characters they prefer . Thus the Hulk can absolutely tag any speedster ever , despite his own absence of independent feats , because "he does it all the time" , yet the same fans will hold that he can totally, absolutely wreck the likes of Thanos physically despite Wolverine as noted , not getting one shotted , many times . Obviously consistency or an adherence even to their own rules , is not an issue for them .

Or for that matter , various DC fans . Who will take time to vilify the Hulk's lack of speed feats not related to tagging fast people, before calling Doomsday a speedster , for doing the exact same thing

As far as tagging people who are fast, what I'll say is that context matters. Just tagging someone randomly doesnt mean anything. On the other hand, if you know from the context that the character that got tagged was going all out and fighting to his/her best ability... then I'd consider that a legitimate feat. Problem is that this is hardly ever the case. You almost never get a situation where you know a character is using his full speed/reaction and nothing else happened to cause a distraction or whatever.

We have to remember that PIS means "Plot Induced Stupidity" and not "Plot Induced Slowness". If a character forgets he can fly, that's PIS. If he forgets he can use certain techniques or equipment in a fight... that's PIS. If he forgets to use superspeed... that's PIS. BUT, if you KNOW he's using superspeed and he gets tagged... that's not PIS.

I mean, as i am assuming this mostly comes down to speed discussion and the horrible overrating of speed in Comicvine battles, let's just look at things from a real life view of things for a second. (i know it's stupid to compare the two but bear with me). A smaller guy fighting a much bigger, more powerful whom he possesses a speed advantage over, is always going to be controversial fight. The smaller guy is going to use his speed to stick'n'move and he will possible wear down the bigger opponent eventually, but he will never finish the fight unless he gets down and dirty in there and swings for the fences and that's when the bigger guy will be tagging him. It's nearly impossible to fight defensively AND offensively using speed at the same time.

Let's just take this into a Hulk vs Superman fight, Superman's speed is the deciding factor in that particular fight along with his versatility, because the two are so closely matched otherwise. However, if Superman wants to finish the fight, he will have to get down and dirty and trade with Hulk given the Hulk's healing and durability. This is where the fight becomes dangerous for Superman and he risks getting tagged. Superman however is one of the very few capable of blitzing a non PiS, full durability Hulk for a win because he has the strength to put him down. Will it always work for him? No. A weaker character trying the same just won't work, they can't dish out the same punishment as Superman can and thus their speed is -A- factor but not the deciding factor simply because they can't make it count enough, but it always helps!

People will always disagree on how they judge these things i suppose. I just used the example above because it's a popular one.

Not to mention that all characters have low showings for story purposes. Consistant, high end feats are the ones that should count in my opinion.

The various characters noted (Superman/Flash) have been shown to see the world around them as stationary without particularly trying, even when caught by surprise .

That they then forget this can be either of a)PIS or b) the other guy being about as fast

Thus the question of "going all out" or not becomes meaningless . Unless the person is as fast anyway , going "all out" is no differnet to seeing the world as stationary when caught by surprise . Superspeed doesn't have an "ON" switch for these people . They *cant* be caught by surprise or need to go "all out" .

Thus Deathstroke must necessarily be FTL to tag the Flash .

The alternative of course , is to say that Flash's reflexes slowed down from seeing photons as stationary to ....not seeing Slade as stationary .

This now means that Slade tagged a Flash that was going only as fast /whose reaction speed had inexplicably dropped to "only as fast as Slade"levels

Is this level even faster than a bullet ? Nope, not without speculation

Which ultimately again, makes the feat meaningless . Hulk can tag the Surfer / Gladiator/Sentry all he wants . The feat is no better than even bullet timing, without speculation

Doomsday, likewise

Or , you know , you can chalk all these instances up to PIS and the character forgetting how superspeed actually works. I'm cool either way

Yes. PIS is almost required for comics with multiple superheroes to work. It will be there in about every issue, doesn't mean it is not PIS anymore.

The difference between using layman examples and comic characters is well....the sheer magnitude / scale at which said characters operate .

Thus , it's not Rey Mysterio vs the Big Show here , where the fast guy has one advantage and the big guy another : it's Superman vs the Hulk .

Its a character that has 10 odd pages of thoughtful conversation as coffee hangs suspended in air while everyone else is a statue , vs a guy who struggles to tag Spiderman . Having a conversation is fairly more complicated and requires well more brain functions than say ...throwing a punch once . Twice . A hundred times

The day you get a layman real life analogy where one guy is so fast he can track lightspeed particles with his bare eyes , track FTL sppeedsters under the strain/pressure of the multiverse collapsing around him, search the planet in a group of 3 in the space of a few minutes while tracking dozens of people at superspeed so fast they never see him , see the world as stationary around him as he chats with the Flashe etc.....then you have an argument about said comic characters speed being anything like the minor real life advatanges certain athletes have over the other

So, what is a bigger PIS? Thor tagging SS & gladiator, or getting tagged by wolverine & BP?

@thegrayghost: Whence why i said it wasn't the best example but to bear with me. Like i said, in the case of Superman and Hulk, Superman's speed becomes the tiebreaker in these cases because they are so evenly matched otherwise. A lesser being could dance around someone like Hulk because they don't have what it takes to put him down without putting themselves at risk.

Then we also have a guy like Hulk whose speed feats are also so good that if you look at it from the opposite point of view, bricks like Colossus, Juggernaut and the like shouldn't be able to tag him. Why can't other bricks copy his jumping and movement feats for example? Because they lack the speed to do so.

Doomsday is one example where we got to question how we judge these things. The guy lacks any remarkable feats of his own and basically all we have to judge him is to measure him against other characters. Doomsday has nothing to suggest he has FTL movement speed, planet busting power and the such. I think it's very hard to overthink these matters and so we're forced to take their feats in many cases for what they are.

No doubt superspeed works differently for different characters, so I wont claim that it does. But, for for most I'd say that there is such a thing as an "ON slider". Meaning, that it's something they have to focus on to use and to speed up and down. Otherwise, if they lived in a constant state of seeing the world at such speeds, it means they'd go crazy from boredom watching everything around them at a standstill, having to wait what appears to be years before anything happens. Think of it like focusing on a particular voice in a crowded room full of people talking. At first it's all just a jumble of voices and you cant tell what anyone is saying. But if you concentrate and focus on one sound, then you can tell it apart from the others.

This is why I think sometimes people like Flash can be tagged, because he's using superspeed but not at full strength. He's not fully concentrating on it. Same thing for Superman.

I am glad to see, judging by the answers given so far, that so many people get it---YES, something can still be PIS if it happens all the time. As I've said many times, whether a character does something they can't possibly do ONCE or a THOUSAND times, PIS is still PIS.

If tomorrow, DC suddenly had Alfred the butler beating up everyone from Richard Dragon to Wonder Woman in H2H for the next 50 years with no explanation on how he is able to do it (secret alien or magical power boost, never before revealed exotic combat training, whatever) just had him do it---that would be PIS, no matter how many times he is shown doing it. If Elektra is shown suddenly able to walk around in space with no protective gear for the next 50 years with no reason for this miracle given, it's PIS regardless, because humans can't do that.

And if character A (like say, Superman or Wonder Woman) is designated as a nano second reaction timer and up to FTL combat speedster---having character B (like say, the Hulk or Thor) who, for the vast majority of their existence have been blitzed by the likes of Black Panther, Wolverine, Captain America, Spider-Man, Mongoose, and Matt Murdock able to keep up with them defies logic. Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, et. al use their speed all the time, even when not fighting, but Hulk and Thor don't, only-occasionally-miraculously getting such speed when they face opponents like Gladiator or Silver Surfer, because the writer is contracted to display more than a five to 7 panel fight. Those characters don't have the origin or the power set to justify them fighting super fast opponents any more than Batman has; for at least 60 years, he has been depicted as evading and tagging super fast people as Impulse, Wonder Woman, Wally West when he was Kid Flash, Aquaman (under water!?!) Superman, and many others "consistently". No one-besides the most devoted Bat fans-claims he has super speed.

If a character is shown doing something from the beginning of their careers, or if a plausible explanation is given for them able to do tasks their origin and/or power set doesn't justify (alien or magical power boost, sudden mutation, etc.) then it's all good; otherwise, PIS is still PIS no matter how often it is portrayed.

The ON slider thing amounts to the same thing . If , logically , you will go crazy from utilising superspeed all the time , you will likewise go crazy from NOT utilising it in combat , which is where all these "tagging the speedster " feats mostly come from

I mean, I can't imagine what Flash's state of mind would be like , to go home and think about having been impaled by the guy protecting a close friend's rapist .....if only he could time travel and rectify the problem.....oh

That aside Flash at least has outright noted stuff like having seconds stretch for years for him and how he deals with that, and they , all of them, have feats for their superspeed kicking in without a slider . Does it make a lot of sense for them not to go insane ? I dunno, we are talking about an alien God that gets his powers from the sun, a dude who is channeling the literal embodiment of speed , another guy whom rides a surfboard inside black holes

It's comics . Sticking to feats , rather than speculation makes the most sense .

Man, if it happens frequently, it's not PIS, the character is just a jobber. If someone has shown that is hurt by bullets from time to time despite being "bulletproof", he is probably not bulletproof.

Depends I guess. If it's some minor occurrence or anything, whatever. Something big like idk Hulk losing to Elektra, or Luke Cage beating Namor or Apocalypse beating Thanos in a fight. That'd be major PIS.

I have seen nothing from Hulk to indicate him being particularly faster than either Cain or Piotr . Other than tagging fast people, which is something Cain at least has also done .

Jumping has nothing to do with speed . Strength of legs . Collosus I don't think is strong enough anyway . Why will Juggernaut bother to jump when he's much more effective as an unstoppable walker ?

Doomsday at his peak destroyed the JLA big 7 and Superman without much effort . The guy not having 1000s of appearances unlike the Hulk , given he's been established as a class 100 from day 1 with nothing actively contradicting it , it's fairly safe to assume he's somewhere on a planetary scale in strength, if not beyond . It's the equivalent of saying Kurse is a class 100 or Mangog or indeed the Juggernaut or some of the lesser heralds like Firelord . None of them have planet busting feats but given their minimal number of appearances , have been shown from day 1 to be in the class 100 range consitently for their strength to be unduly questioned

Speed being the one stat that is most jobbed out, to make the comic interesting, the absence of independent speed feats becomes all the more critical even for characters with as few appearances as Doomsday .....not helped by the fact that even the most powerful versions have contradictory showings of not being able to match Superman's speed

If a new writer made Batman beat Darkseid consistently without explaining a sudden power increase or whatever, that would be consistent but still PIS. Or WIS, I guess.

@willpayton

". If a character forgets he can fly, that's PIS. If he forgets

DBZ and Bleach come into play lol

For Shizzle.

With Superman, I would almost call it CIS. He doesn't speedblitz or even use his full strength on most enemies because of morals, and that sometimes gets him in trouble.

The short answer is yes.

Nope. That's established. Saying it's PIS when it happens more than the supposed contrary evidence is literally insane.

Not a battle.

If the low-end showings happen repeatedly and consistently enough, then you may start suspecting the high-end feats to be what's PIS.

PIS has to happen in comics. If you look at Some characters powers an abilities there is no way they would lose to weaker characters. It would be harder for writer to write comics without PIS if you think about it.

I would say that it depends, if one writer is writing a book with a character and writes him with consistently really high end feats, while in all of the other books that rarely happens then it's PIS. The Batman and Superman book, has Batman consistently fighting Superman level threats, without an special armor. That's PIS it doesn't happen in any of the other books.

I think basically all comic fights are PIS.

PIS will never stop. It is how these things work. Otherwise it would be impossible to choose who wins in evenly matched fights or against powerful bad guys.

Thanos with IG could never lose. But he did. He had to lose.

Sometimes it's PIS other times it isn't.

Take the case of Superman being hit by slower opponents. Fact is yes, he can move FTL. However he doesn't move at that speed all the time. Sometimes Superman simply chooses not to move out of the way of an attack. After all he's one of the most invulnerable beings in comics.

If PIS and CIS didn't exist you would either have all comic characters at similar levels of skill and power or you wouldn't have match-ups like Superman vs Batman. So yeah, no matter how many times it happens, it's still PIS because in the end writers have to tell a story.

"The Flash, Superman and Wonder Woman get hit in every comic. Yet they all have feats to suggest that they should rarely get hit."

Depends who is hitting them, but yes there are many cases of pis in regards to this.

"Wolverine has survived battles with the Hulk a few times. Does that mean that Wolverine is a good match up for Hulk? Or are all their battles PIS?"

No, I would not call Wolverine a good match up for the Hulk, but due to his healing and Adamantium skeleton he could certainly survive the encounter easily.

"Thanos has consistently taking full power blast from Silver Surfer. Thanos has consistently hit a speeding Surfer. Does that mean Surfer is incapable of hurting thanos?"

I wouldn't say so much he can't hurt him, although perhaps physically he can't. He certainly can't endanger Thanos physically. I'd say a lot of characters hitting Surfer is pis, I know a lot of people here use the travel speed does not equal combat speed argument but Surfer is capable of incredible perceptions and such speeds and so his reactions must be remarkable. I generally chalk this up to comic story telling, otherwise he'd be essentially unbeatable other than to top tiers.

"So how often does something have to happen before we STOP saying it's PIS?"

It's not just how much it happens, but the context and the logic behind it.

"Or does PIS happen in every comic repeatedly?"

Yes...because otherwise anyone with superspeed would make for really boring comic characters.

"If a character can consistently hit people who are FTL. Do we assume the person has FTL combat speed?"

This is what I mean by tricky, not necessarily but it's where pis seems most rife. However, take the Surfer Thanos example, let's say for a second that Surfers combat speed and reactions should dwarf that of Thanos, he still isn't really capable of seriously hurting Thanos so all that speed is essentially useless to him.

"If a character can consistently battled and injure planet busters...do we assume they are planet busters?"

No, just because someone has the strength or power to bust a planet doesn't mean they have the durability to withstand themselves unless shown or stated reliably. If that's the case though then yes, or at least close to.

@dernman: What is 'stupid'?

The problem in PIS is that it's subjective in nature.

Most things are subjective. Lucky as humans we have a thing called judgment. You can be wrong or not but subjective or not doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Other wise nothing in life would be debated or discussed.

I agree with most all of that. The one thing I don't agree with is the implied that writers can't write stories without it. They can and personally I would enjoy many of them more. Don't get me wrong I'm not totally against the IS but a man in a Bat suit taken on a gang with guns is one thing but taking on a man who's virtually impervious to everything known to man and can move faster than you think is another.

PIS will be forever and ever a part of superheros, to the extend that some stories are entirely based on PIS, i.e Deadpool kills the Marvel universe.

Its pis when they have no reason to even be in a fight with a character ie a street character fighting someone with super speed and don't have some plot to fight them...

PIS is only a term,I've never seen a definition of what it is. The best one I'v heard is "When something happens and you don't like..then you call it PIS. If you do like it..then it's "proof" of something."

Every single panel in a comic is PIS. I wonder when people will figureout it's all fake and made up by many different writers with different views. This is why hulk, a slow dumb ass, is even relevant in any comics

Right, but what I'm saying is what makes your definition of "stupid" the definitive one?

What you consider PIS at all may not be to someone else.

@zzagirl said:

It's not always PIS...

lol

Not really, people have no idea what "norms" are