Is Captain America: TWS the MCU's "The Dark Knight"?

Yes. They're both very good movies that get far more praise than they deserve and shouldn't even be discussed among the best films in their series.

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No.

No.

Yes. It's tied with Iron Man as the MCU's best.

TDK is still better though.

Yeah, I tend to think of it as such. Both are high water marks. I consider Winter Soldier my favorite superhero movie at this point.

Nope. The Winter Soldier doesn't nearly have enough depth to be compared with the Dark Knight. No MCU film does.

TWS > DK

I voted no because Captain America was done better according to his comic counter part as opposed to The Dark Knight movie and Batman. Many instances of Nolan's Batman seemed like he was legit just a guy in a bat suit, never to barely ever trained and wasn't even a rookie level detective.

@petey_is_spidey: Let's look at Rotten Tomatoes your go to for movies lol.

This. That's one of the reasons I just didn't like the Dark Knight series. When I tell people it was 'meh', they look at me like I'm crazy. It just didn't AT ALL feel like a Batman film, and I was barely entertained.

I preferred TDK but both were great, and definitely the best of their series for me. I'm not sure I'd call them counterparts though, since other than being really good they don't have that much in common.

@ganon15 disagree. The Dark Knight was a great thriller movie where as the Winter Soldier was just another action film. I can't see a comparison between them beyond being both based on comic characters.

Nah..for one, I think IM was slightly better than TWS, but TDK had one thing no MCU movie has had yet, a great villain.

If luscious died he would be f*cked.

He couldn't manage his own money, and he was "barely" a detective

I can see the comparison but their also good films for very different reasons although I prefer TDK.

Both are very good movies. TDK was awesome but it ain't Apocalypse Now like people hype it up to be.

The Dark Knight might not have captured the level of skills that their comic book counterparts had, but it doesn't really matter since TDK is a character driven, moral and philosophical complex, thematic film unlike TWS. It doesn't mean that TWS is bad, it's a great action film but you just can't compare.

This. TWS was one of the better MCU movies but calling the best in just placing a cap on the MCU.

Not really, both have different atmosphere

The more I think about it, not really. Winter Solider will never leave the impact that Dark Knight. I don't know if any future CBM will leave the impact Dark Knight did.

Dark Knight is good, but it isn't nearly as 'deep' or 'thought provoking' as people give it credit for. At it's core it's a generic Batman/Joker story, but the non-comic audience probably doesn't realize that. A great movie, yes. And it does have some excellent thematic themes and depth, but it isn't the next War and Peace (so to speak). One of my favorites, but some of its praise puts it on too high a pedestal in my opinion.

TWS is more or less the same. It's a great film, definitely broke the MCU mold and blended action, depth, comedy, and storytelling. But is it some be-all-end-all for the MCU? I certainly hope not. If anything I hope writers follow in it's footsteps and expand and improve on what it showed an MCU film could be.

Personally, I like TWS more. I find TDK a bit heavy handed in it's delivery, like it's almost preaching at you about how deep it is. Some will disagree with me, but I don't care...I think Batman Begins was better.

If Heath Ledger didn't die it wouldnt of be as highly rated

@royal_warrior: Keep dreaming.

Guardians of the Galaxy > Winter Soldier

So no

No.

TWS is my favorite MCU movie but Iron Man 1 is still the best imo.

That movie simply has so much heart

No. While I did enjoy The Winter Soldier and it is one of the best Marvel Cinematic Universe films (amazing action sequences for the win!) and had a great villain, I do not love it like most people. I do think people credit The Winter Soldier more then it deserves, because when you put it next to the other Marvel Cinematic Universe films (fun, but rather shallow), The Winter Soldier is fantastic, but when you put it next to better, other movies, as it stands it is good, but not great. Maybe it has something to do with the fact I'm not personally passionate about it.

I disagree. The Dark Knight is an example of good character development and character arcs in a film. Batman has a character arc as Christopher Nolan basically deconstructed the character, The Joker is by far the most complex superhero movie villain, and possibly the best villain of all time. They explored him so much it was ridiculous, and Heath Ledger brought it up to 11. Harvey also developed as a character. The relationship between Batman and The Joker is amazing. Then there's the motifs of the story: moral code, "all it takes is one bad day to turn someone mad", hero doesn't always win etc.

- TAS

@theamazingspidey: And I think you're over evaluating the Joker. He is literally a crazy guy (I'm aware he's not actually crazy) doing what he wants and while his plan is complex he himself is not. He got as much screen time as the hero and his character was the same from start to finish, it was only required that because his plans were so big. Batman has a great development but the most fleshed out story is Dent's who obviously undergoes the greatest character change but we see it slowly develop throughout the movie.

And Joker is far from the greatest movie villain of all time, but you're entitled to your opion.

@granitesoldier: Don't forget jokers relationship with batman that develops as well.

@jayc1324: I agree with that part, I didn't really have a comment for it, which is why I didn't mention it...

And while that was good Joker was still the same character we saw start to finish.

@granitesoldier: Yeah, you're being really unfair here.

Joker goes from a maniac "ripping off mon dealers" to a tormentor of Batman, out to prove a point. He's not just a crazy guy throughout the film, his attitudes and motivations change. Which is actually pretty hard to accomplish with Joker, since even in the comics he's 1-dimensional, but Nolan pulled it off.

And "heavy-handed"? Forcing its deep thoughts on us? I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here. What specific parts of the films did you think were heavy handed? At what points did you think the film was trying to convince us it was some philosophical, introspective, deep work of art and failed?

I've been saying that since Begins came out.

You're hardcore Batman fans always try and argue even though there's no evidence.

People actually think TDK is 'deep' and 'complex'? It's a superficial thriller with bad acting and a tasteless, boorish villain.

@slayz: We see all that Joker is in the very first scene in the bank robbery. While his target changes from the mob to Batman that doesn't change who he is at all.

Heavy handed as in it forces it's themes overtly. Great storytelling doesn't require specific lines summing up the thematic elements of the movie (die a hero yada yada...). It doesn't really offer room for interpretation and true thought provocation because it simply hands you the answers. The greatest subtle success of the film was how Nolan developed Gotham itself into a character with hopes and fears you could see throughout the film and see change as time went on.

I'm not being unfair, I'm being critical. At no point in time did I say it was a bad movie or that I didn't enjoy it. I'm being more constructive and fair than 90% of the people on here who bash the MCU, but TDK is beyond reproach? It has flaws and gets praise for being something I don't think it is, and I am expressing my views in a constructive way and hoping that DC improves on TDK's blueprint. Nothing unfair about any of it.

So Christian Bale,Gary Oldman,Morgan Freeman,Heath Ledger,Michael Caine and Aaron Eckhart are bad actors now? and Joker is boorish?

Having an opinion is one thing,being absolutely wrong is another thing entirely. You're free to dislike it but those are top quality actors and Joker is legendary.

All you've ever said was that these movies didn't have good fights,no one cares.

@entropy_aegis:

With the exception of Heath Ledger, their performances were unremarkable and phoned-in.

The joker was little more than a brutish thug, and his anarchist dogma was laughably cliche; it felt like an angsty teenager was ranting at me.

"Joker is legendary"

@granitesoldier: Yes, you are being unfair. Joker doesn't change? He specifically details how he changed. I'm paraphrasing; "I had a little vision of a city in disarrary. The mob ground out a little profit, and it was soooo... Boring. I've had a change of heart."

He's no longer wild-man out to destroy the city for the hell of it, he's wild-man out to corrupt the city and Harvey and prove to Batman the pointlessness of life. That's non-debatable, it literally happens in the film.

So presenting ideas is heavy-handed now? That's absurd and asinine. You brought up the "Die a villain" line as an example of heavy-handed story-telling. How? You're telling me you would have reached that same conclusion if the line had not been in the film? You're telling me you would have even gone down that train of thought? Absurd. That line is iconic because it WAS thought provoking and interesting; It wasn't forcing an idea down your throat, it was presenting an idea to you that you could either agree with or disagree with. That's just what good story-telling is, sparking discussion.

This whole concept you present where it "thinks for you" just isn't true, and that's why I'm saying you're being unfair. You honestly believe people exited the theater thinking, "Yeah man I'm gonna die a hero! I don't want to be a villain!" No, because it's a controversial statement that sparks discussion over differing views. I personally don't think you need to die to be a hero, that scene is interesting to me because it spells out how Harvey sees justice. He wants to be the macho-man that goes down in the fight before he is corrupted.

The things you list as flaws are completely unfair and not very thought through. You say you're being critical, but I don't even see a hint of critical thinking anywhere in your argument. In fact, I think that you believe the film is "heavy-handed" mostly because you lack the critical thinking needed to really examine the themes it presents. Ironically, you're the viewer that you were describing - you just take the ideas presented at face value and assume there is no substance with them!

@sprior93 said:

@entropy_aegis:

With the exception of Heath Ledger, their performances were unremarkable and phoned-in.

The joker was little more than a brutish thug, and his anarchist dogma was laughably cliche; it felt like an angsty teenager was ranting at me.

"Joker is legendary"

Where did Eckhart and Oldman phone it? the only thing going against Bale is his voice which as Begins showed could've been better.

This Joker was absolutely not a thug,that Nicholson Joker was a thug,Jared Joker has already been described as a thug. There was nothing angsty about him,that honour goes to Loki. He was...nah IS one of the best movie villains ever.

Ledger won a posthumous Oscar for that role,that=legendary.

The Joker also went from telling the group of thugs meeting in daylight, that they had to "Kill the Batman" To saying to Batman, "Kill you? I don't want to kill you, what would I do without you? You complete me." When he didn't know Batman, he saw as merely an interference to his lifestyle. When he finally got to know him, he saw him as someone that was a worthy adversary. Order vs Chaos. That's nearly a perfect sample of character development.

@manwhohaseverything: I see it differently. He told the mobsters exactly what they wanted to hear. He told them he could off Batman, even though he had no intention of it. We see later he had no plans of killing Batman, but wanted Batman's undivided attention. He put on the makeup because of Batman, that much is inferred at the end of Batman Begins, so it's safe to say he was familiar when he became Joker. He wanted the mobsters to trust him so he could take everything from them. It's not character development it's plan revelation.

Like I said, the complex planning of the Joker was great, he character stayed the same though.

@entropy_aegis:

Eckhart had me cringing towards the end of the movie. Oldman, like I said, was entirely unremarkable.

Ledger 'won' an Oscar out of sympathy and to appease the masses. Had he been alive, it would have gone to someone else. And since when do Oscars indicate quality? By your logic, Titanic and Crash should be considered legendary movies(lol).