Obviously, I do not need to post scans that prove that Batman is capable of beating Flash in a fight, because its already more or less demonstrated and widespread: The Tower of Babel story-line is the most classic concrete example that demonstrated that Flash does have vulnerabilities.
There's a lot of widespread myths about Flash's abilities. There are claims that Flash is completely unstoppable because he has casual FTL reactions all the time. The truth is Flash is barely hypersonic in most of his adventures, and he only goes FTL in desperate situations due to the high risks involved.
So let this be a question and a discussion as to whether is Flash really on the level of a top herald level. I personally doubt he is.
Well every Superhero has a weakness (even Batman). Otherwise, why would you want to read a Flash comic in the first place.
That's true.
However, the users on this site tend to underrate Batman a lot and overrate Flash a lot.
Flash obviously has shown that he is consistently being able to get caught off-guard and thus get himself into dangerous situations. The "wankers" (This term they like to call Batman fans) deliberately left out all these obvious details and instead put out high-end feats, which while consistent, are not as consistent as him taken out by street-levelers.
Well every Superhero has a weakness (even Batman). Otherwise, why would you want to read a Flash comic in the first place.
That's true.
However, the users on this site tend to underrate Batman a lot and overrate Flash a lot.
Flash obviously has shown that he is consistently being able to get caught off-guard and thus get himself into dangerous situations. The "wankers" (This term they like to call Batman fans) deliberately left out all these obvious details and instead put out high-end feats, which while consistent, are not as consistent as him taken out by street-levelers.
Thanks. As much as Batman has been wanked in the past, he is also severely under rated. That is why I don't like Batman battles.
A person finding a weakness in a stronger character and exploiting it happens a lot in the comics. A really good example in real life I like to use is Kevin Mitnick. Major company puts up the latest and greatest cryptography system and firewall that no one can break. All Kevin Mitnick does is call worker, claim to be the help desk and asks for their password. There you go!
Thanks. As much as Batman has been wanked in the past, he is also severely under rated. That is why I don't like Batman battles.
A person finding a weakness in a stronger character and exploiting it happens a lot in the comics. A really good example in real life I like to use is Kevin Mitnick. Major company puts up the latest and greatest cryptography system and firewall that no one can break. All Kevin Mitnick does is call worker, claim to be the help desk and asks for their password. There you go!
That example is a good real life example that the "chain is only as strong as its weakest link".
Users here complained that targeting weaknesses is a bad thing and PIS. But well, as you said, it happens a lot in the comics isn't it? I don't see any rules condemning use of weaknesses in a battle.
@wenjunchew: In MOST cases yes. In a random encounter hell yes. Obviously Batman is no where near Flash's level but a Batman wanker like you probably can't understand that.
It's just plot. That being said, Batman is the most unrealistic comic book character IMO, and I feel he is incredibly overrated. Prep =\= instant win. I love Batman when he's fighting Batman-level villains. But hanging with Flash and Superman level bads, even I he's just kind of ridiculous.
@thitiki: Oh and what are the cases where Batman beating the Flash isn't PIS?
The Tower of Babel is CANON (Not even sure if this word is relevant here), and it shows that Batman beating the Flash isn't PIS - Batman did develop a well-thought out plan to incapacitate the Flash, and the enemies who stole his plans implemented and demonstrated so.
Obviously, I do not need to post scans that prove that Batman is capable of beating Flash in a fight, because its already more or less demonstrated and widespread: The Tower of Babel story-line is the most classic concrete example that demonstrated that Flash does have vulnerabilities.
There's a lot of widespread myths about Flash's abilities. There are claims that Flash is completely unstoppable because he has casual FTL reactions all the time. The truth is Flash is barely hypersonic in most of his adventures, and he only goes FTL in desperate situations due to the high risks involved.
So let this be a question and a discussion as to whether is Flash really on the level of a top herald level. I personally doubt he is.
1. Tower of Babel,which you seem to be basing your argument off of,is a story that people recognize is filled with the most PIS.
2. Doesn't the Flash have femtosecond reaction time (probably even moreso pre-new 52).
Regarding his running speed,it depends on the scenario. Sometimes he moves slow enough so that his teammates can hear and perceive him,other times not.
Anyway,how was he taken out in ToB again? A vibrating bullet?
Well every Superhero has a weakness (even Batman). Otherwise, why would you want to read a Flash comic in the first place.
That's true.
However, the users on this site tend to underrate Batman a lot and overrate Flash a lot.
Flash obviously has shown that he is consistently being able to get caught off-guard and thus get himself into dangerous situations. The "wankers" (This term they like to call Batman fans) deliberately left out all these obvious details and instead put out high-end feats, which while consistent, are not as consistent as him taken out by street-levelers.
Underrate Batman??? Seriously??? One of the most OVERRATED characters on the vine? The one that people think can beat entire universes with prep? Come on,now....
Overrate the Flash? Explain why (if you want).
He has been caught off guard a few times,but sometimes it's absolute PIS (such as The Deathstroke fight in Identity Crisis). Other times (like in the new 52),he has been caught off guard because he was distracted and lost in thought. Although that is Barry Allen,but still.....
No,"wankers" doesn't rely apply to Batman fans. It applies to his stubborn fanboys that try to put so much emphasis on his abilities that they think that he can pretty much do anything (or next to anything) with prep.
And usually when he is taken out by someone like Deathstroke,it is,again PIS. At least,the way that it is usually done. There may be some instance of it not being PIS that I might be unaware of.
@thitiki: Oh and what are the cases where Batman beating the Flash isn't PIS?
The Tower of Babel is CANON (Not even sure if this word is relevant here), and it shows that Batman beating the Flash isn't PIS - Batman did develop a well-thought out plan to incapacitate the Flash, and the enemies who stole his plans implemented and demonstrated so.
How is that plan PIS? Pls explain.
Lol are you that much of a Batman wanker? I didn't say anything about PIS so don't even try it. I'm just gonna sit back as you become the most hated Batman wanker on this site til you eventually get banned. Your whole response is irrelevant because I didn't bring up anything you mentioned so you also trying to troll and be a wanker?
If Flash is in character then yes, Bats can beat him.
Unless he absolutely NEEDS to, he barely goes maybe mach 10. Cause when your going FTL, your putting everybody around in you in danger due to all the wind. If properly written, Batman wins.
But if Flash goes all out, then it's over for Batman.
LMAO!!! Another solid proof you don't read. Get your facts straight wanker!
That's Flash going from the Moon to Earth in less than PlanckTime
Earth to Moon = 384.000 km
Planck Time = 5.39106e-44 seconds , Wally's real speed is really mind-shattering 2.375944852e43c
thats really fu*king awesome
Wally was traveling through the Big Bang and Big Crunch and was able to perceive them, but traveled through time too fast to be hurt by them. As these events spanned the entire universe it would be impossible to outrun them, so this probably gives him sub-planck senses/reactions, since he was only within them for less than a planck instant, I'm pretty sure.
Next up is outrunning the explosion of Krypton. In this (Post-Crisis, pre-reboot) continuity, Krypton was in the Andromeda galaxy. The explosion also managed to eventually propel shards of Kryptonite to/near Earth, by the time of the New Krypton storyline. This story started in December of 2008. The Crisis on Infinite Earths ended in March of 1986. IIRC in Post-Crisis continuity, Superman was around 30 years old when he debuted. So the Kryptonite took 52 years and 9 months to reach Earth from Krypton.
Andromeda is 2.54 million light-years from Earth so the Kryptonite was traveling at 48,151.65877c We can thus safely say Wally was running faster than this.
Next was him racing against Zeta Beams. A Zeta Beam is a technology from the planet Rann, which was able to teleport people over interstellar distances seemingly instantly. This included from the position of Rann's new star system, Polaris, to Earth. To be conservative, I'll give a timeframe of 1 second for the teleportation (even though they're almost always portrayed as being much faster than this).
Distance from Earth to Polaris is 325 - 425 light - years, I'll average it and say 375. Thus the minimum speed of a Zeta beam is around11,826,000,000c Wally was keeping up with this.
Next Wally's accumulated speed racing against the cosmic gamblers.
We start with the 11,826,000,000c minimum speed we knew he had up to this point. Add to this the speed of every person on Earth (stated as being 5 billion in the comic) running as fast as they can.
I found information on the average human sprint speed being 14 mph (6.25856 m/s). Multiplying that by 5 billion and we get 31,292,800,000 m/s, or104.3815452c.
Not really that much of a boost... but the real boost comes from when Krakkl offers Wally his own speed, and he was using the combined speed of everyone on his homeworld. As both of their worlds were in danger, and Krakkl stated they were saving 100 billion lives, and the Earth population was already established at 5 billion, we can say there were 95 billion people on the planet Kwyzz.
Now all of these were radio wave beings, so they must have been moving at least the speed of light, however in the past Krakkl was able to communicate with Wally on Earth in-real time, using only his natural speed and abilities.
The distance between Kwyzz and Earth was never stated,
but we can narrow it down to get a minimum distance.
It couldn't have been in the Alpha Centauri system, because that was Rann's former system, and this was before Rann's move during the Rann-Thanagar war. So that's ruled out.
I cannot find any reference to Barnard's Star, the next nearest system, in any DC works, so this is the closest place Kwyzz could be.
In order for a reasonable two-way conversation without noticeable delays, I'm guessing a maximum time interval would be 0.1 seconds (conservative again).
Distance to Barnard's star = 5.963 light-years.
Therefore, Krakkl's base speed would be at least 1,880,491,680c.
Multiplying this by 95 billion, we get 1.786467096e20c.
Adding this to Flash's speed from before and the speed from Earth, we get 1.786467096118260001043815452e20c.
Finally beating Krakkl.(Crossed the whole f*cking universe in less than an instant)
OTHER FEATS OF WALLY WEST FLASH:
250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Times Faster Than the Speed of LIGHT -thanks to dredeuced
During the Human Race, Wally outraced instantaneous teleportation from the Cosmic Gamblers -- that could be seen as a pseuod time travel feat, though, as he raced across the fourth dimension to do it (The fourth dimension is time).
Directly after that, though, he was definitely not time traveling. Over the span of one Septosecond, which is 0.000000000000000000001 seconds, he tuned every radio on Earth.
There are 150,000,000 square kilometers of land on Earth. Light travels about 300,000 kilometers per second. To cover 150,000,000 kilometers, it would take light 500 seconds. For simplicity's sake, if you assume there is 1 radio for every square kilometer on earth (that is lowballing it greatly), that means he was traveling 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000times faster than light, or 500 septillion.
Understand that I am greatly, greatly lowballing this feat as it doesn't take into account the time it takes him to tune every radio, the accurate density of radios per square kilometer (much higher than my guess, i just used mine to make the multiplication and division easier), radios that aren't on land (such as every boat on the planet that has a radio) or the time it takes him to search the square of every kilometer -- if he had to search every square inch then it'd be 500 septillion squared, or250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which is 250 Quattuordecillion times the speed of light.
Here's the feat in action:
Beating Femtosecond,another zeptosecond reaction time
@stormdriven: he didn't even counter some facts displayed to him in his other threads and yet he has the audacity to claim he won the arguments especially about Nate Gray. Lol. He was just asserting plausible fallacies over and over till he has the last say. Lol
@greatcaesarsghost: You sure love to take my quotes out of context and thus label me a troll. Flash is hypersonic - most of the times. I have never said he's hypersonic all the time.
@stormdriven: he didn't even counter some facts displayed to him in his other threads and yet he has the audacity to claim he won the arguments especially about Nate Gray. Lol. He was just asserting plausible fallacies over and over till he has the last say. Lol
Yes I did counter them. I already said those listed feats are irrelevant and Batman can build counter-plans against Nate Grey. What's so complicated that those claims had to be denied? Because you are jealous of Batman's ability to come up with plans to defeat most terrestrial and even some extraterrestrial opponents?
lol seriously? You think those feats are relevant to Batman whose abilities are human in nature? Outside of Flash's time travel feats (Which are stupid plot stories IMO), it is feasible for Batman to come up with a counterplan against Flash that makes all the feats irrelevant. Demonstrated too: Batman's vibrating bullet causing seizures on Flash.
Batman can simply work to extend this plan to turn it into a city-wide aura that prevents Flash from even touching him - This is a counter against the counterplan Flash might have (avoiding the bullet instead of phasing through it).
Finally, the fact that Flash often gets caught off-guard is not mentioned here and gets dismissed as PIS. Talk about consistency and bias lol, an unbiased user would know that Flash can be FTL, but its only in rare circumstances and in normal circumstances he is barely hypersonic and can be caught off-guard.
So the battle rules goes: Superman doesn't use his super-speed often, so we can't assume that he speed-blitz from the start. Well, I'm telling the Flash fanboys here that Flash doesn't go FTL often, so we can't assume he goes FTL on Batman from the start.
@stormdriven: he didn't even counter some facts displayed to him in his other threads and yet he has the audacity to claim he won the arguments especially about Nate Gray. Lol. He was just asserting plausible fallacies over and over till he has the last say. Lol
Yes I did counter them. I already said those listed feats are irrelevant and Batman can build counter-plans against Nate Grey. What's so complicated that those claims had to be denied? Because you are jealous of Batman's ability to come up with plans to defeat most terrestrial and even some extraterrestrial opponents?
No you didn't you just constantly made incoherent wanking remarks that prove nothing and just kept insisting on your views without backing them up. And who are you to say which feats are irrelevant when the creators put those feats there in the 1st place? You just constantly setup the feat restrictions so that Batman can win, and if thats the case why even make a battle in the 1st place. Lol why would I be jealous of Batman's abilities? We can all just see through your fallacies that you repeat over and over then consider feats of other heroes that can easily crush batman irrelevant. You hold no evidence whatsoever in your arguments and simply repeat your same arguments without proof, or references to make your point credible. And your statement in the other thread where you said
"While I believe there's a way Batman can harm Superboy Prime and Hel, I can't actually give an exact strategy like I did for Batman vs Nate Grey."
That's already proof enough that you just believe but you cannot support your claims, making your arguments or views irrelevant. In fact all your arguments are based on that statement you made as you provide no evidence in the DC canon to back up your statements. And oh....
Finally, the fact that Flash often gets caught off-guard is not mentioned here and gets dismissed as PIS. Talk about consistency and bias lol, an unbiased user would know that Flash can be FTL, but its only in rare circumstances and in normal circumstances he is barely hypersonic and can be caught off-guard.
So the battle rules goes: Superman doesn't use his super-speed often, so we can't assume that he speed-blitz from the start. Well, I'm telling the Flash fanboys here that Flash doesn't go FTL often, so we can't assume he goes FTL on Batman from the start.
LOL!!! 1st its been you who hasn't already been consistent, 2nd bias? who's the one setting up batman prep threads here removing feats of his opponents that can easily stomp bats? hahahahahahah
He wouldn't be called the Flash if he doesn't go fast from the start. Do you even read Flash at all? Those statements are obvious you don't read or even know anything about Flash cause his speed feats don't work like physical g-force you see on plane's mach speeds wanker. Ever heard of the Speed Force? Oh why did I ask, you don't, you're not even capable to comprehend how that works since you just read Tower of Babel then from there kept on wanking without reading the next events that debunked that arc and now posts on prep threads thinking he could do anything without fully understanding what he's up against.
Oh Superman doesn't use his super-speed often? We aren't assuming at all. Because he did!
Left panel speed blitzing Wraith.
So again......... Get your facts straight and.........
@vandersexxx: I repeat the same arguments without proof? Show me where? Yes, I do re-phrase my arguments from time to time, but I accompanied them with explanations that are logical. If there are no feats, at least the arguments made had to be logical.
The writers do depict the feats and I do recognize them (case-by-case basis), but they can only be used in the context of the scenario. Speed-blitzing is one common tactic of the Flash for instance, but it won't work on Batman because Batman already is aware of what Flash can do and he would prevent that from happening via that vibrating bullet of doom. Therefore those feats of Flash are irrelevant. That's what I meant, I did not meant that the writers' feats should be dismissed - Outside of those PIS feats.
As for your arguments on Flash going FTL at the start of a fight, even if he does that, Batman can make a plan against that - See my point about extending that vibrating bullet of doom into surroundings of Batman.
As for Superman resorting to speed-blitz at the start, I did not deny that, its the other debaters who did. So there: Either Superman/Flash would speed-blitz at the start of a fight even when in-character, or they would never speed-blitz at the start of a fight when in-character.
What? Why even make a case or even talk about Flash going FTL? Batman is a human, he wouldn't even be able to react if Flash was going Mach 3. I don't know what the vibrating bullet of doom is, but why the hell wouldn't Flash just dodge it? Or take the gun out of Baman's hand before firing it?
@farkam: Sorry to burst your bubble but Flash isn't stomping Batman. And you can never stop me from posting what you deemed as "crap", so you may as well keep quiet here.
What? Why even make a case or even talk about Flash going FTL? Batman is a human, he wouldn't even be able to react if Flash was going Mach 3. I don't know what the vibrating bullet of doom is, but why the hell wouldn't Flash just dodge it? Or take the gun out of Baman's hand before firing it?
Was referring to Tower of Babel storyline's Batman contingency measure.
Yes, Flash can simply dodge that bullet, which is a loophole easy to abuse. Batman most probably was betting that Flash will attempt to phase through the bullet.
This is fiction, any character can be beaten by another character but I can't think of a believable way Batman can beat Flash unless Batman is on Moon and Flash is on Earth having no idea of getting attacked and Batman has a ridiculous amount of prep and upgrades.
How can batman prep for flash when his speed can differ some much in any given scenario,as well as the fact that flash can react in so many different ways. Say for example he tries the vibrating bullet again, what's to say that flash won't side step or deflect the bullet?
No idea how or why some people forget that some of these characters are lightspeed, they can hit Batman millions of times before Batman even blinks.
Batman is better suited for the Marvel universe, not DC where he's up against Gods. If you told me that Batman took down the Avengers, I would believe it since the Avengers don't come packed with these powerhouses.
@vandersexxx: I repeat the same arguments without proof? Show me where? Yes, I do re-phrase my arguments from time to time, but I accompanied them with explanations that are logical. If there are no feats, at least the arguments made had to be logical.
"While I believe there's a way Batman can harm Superboy Prime and Hel, I can't actually give an exact strategy like I did for Batman vs Nate Grey."
Everyone here can see how you repeat your arguments except you. And you claim logical? Yeah a cosmic being that shatters reality barriers can be beaten by a mere human being logical? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA he wouldn't have been a threat to the entire DC universe if that was the case. We have also proven to you countless times how illogical your claims are and all you do is try to post explanations that are nowhere close to logical and you always consider Bat's opponent's feats irrelevant whenever we show you the evidence of the results you don't desire. Logic is something your arguments are very far from even if you re-phrased it countless times to be "semantically correct".
You just constantly circle the argument until somebody concedes to say Batman wins. The rest of the others here obviously see that except you. And every new statement you display defending your claims prove you don't read comics. So I'm just sitting back and watching how everyone here notices how far you're batwanking has come.
And again this statement.......in your other thread...."While I believe there's a way Batman can harm Superboy Prime and Hel, I can't actually give an exact strategy like I did for Batman vs Nate Grey." says it all.
As for your arguments on Flash going FTL at the start of a fight, even if he does that, Batman can make a plan against that - See my point about extending that vibrating bullet of doom into surroundings of Batman.
As for Superman resorting to speed-blitz at the start, I did not deny that, its the other debaters who did. So there: Either Superman/Flash would speed-blitz at the start of a fight even when in-character, or they would never speed-blitz at the start of a fight when in-character.
Yeah the same way he made a plan where 30 years of prep still failed him resulting to this. You still insist on that fallacy over and over when story arcs after Tower of babel have already been debunked many times over. The human mind can only go so far to counter the limits of physics and then you claim logical? LOL!
@vandersexxx: You've built your case very well and I'm sure a majority of users agree with you. Just let him dabble in his flawed logic of how he thinks Batman can beat Flash.
@mr_clockwork91: True. I guess the challenge now is not giving in to temptation whenever I see an obvious fallacy in his arguement that proves he doesn't read at all. LOL
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