In the Star Wars Universe who is more powerful than Yoda?

@ShootingNova said:

@DarthShap said:

Exar Kun.

And this is incorrect as well. Exar Kun has some impressive duelling feats and skills, but not on-par with Yoda's; he stalemated Ood Bnar. And you also have to note that he was amped by trinkets and relics also.

This is true of Force Powers as well; without relics and trinkets, Kun's showings are greatly inferior to that of Yoda's, not exactly vastly, but by quite a bit.

He was simply the best during his lifetime and even after his death, he managed to put Luke Skykalwer into a coma with one blow.

On the two occasions he was defeated it took the ENTIRE Jedi Order of that time period to do so.

@DarthShap: And far too often people fail to understand said circumstances. Kun needed help from Kyp Durron anyways.

It never took the entire order to defeat him at all.

During the Great Sith War: Many Jedi (Vodo-Siosk Baas, Arca Jeth, Odan-Urr) and other very powerful Jedi of the era were already dead, and not all the Jedi went to Yavin IV for the final battle.

And the second time, it didn't cost the entire order, really, to defeat him. But yes, Master Baas' spirit appeared again to aid them, but regardless, this is entirely irrelevant because as a spirit, he would have more free will etc.

We are meant to count him as in his actual, humanoid form, unless specified otherwise. None of this refutes the fact that he is not on-par with Yoda in terms of Force Power and Lightsaber adroitness.

@ShootingNova said:

@DarthShap: And far too often people fail to understand said circumstances. Kun needed help from Kyp Durron anyways.

It never took the entire order to defeat him at all.

During the Great Sith War: Many Jedi (Vodo-Siosk Baas, Arca Jeth, Odan-Urr) and other very powerful Jedi of the era were already dead, and not all the Jedi went to Yavin IV for the final battle.

And the second time, it didn't cost the entire order, really, to defeat him. But yes, Master Baas' spirit appeared again to aid them, but regardless, this is entirely irrelevant because as a spirit, he would have more free will etc.

We are meant to count him as in his actual, humanoid form, unless specified otherwise. None of this refutes the fact that he is not on-par with Yoda in terms of Force Power and Lightsaber adroitness.

Well, he required a lot more than Sidious to defeat him, who Yoda could not beat.

@DarthShap: Are you being serious?

I suggest you read the EU, it took the entire Order (and yes, the entire order) including Luke and Leia, as well as all the spirits of the Jedi from the past, so all the Jedi from the past and the present, in order to finally defeat him. His EP VI death was nothing, he simply transferred his essence into his clone bodies on Byss.

You should really leave stupid expanded universe characters out of it.

@Batnandez said:

You should really leave stupid expanded universe characters out of it.

It's your opinion the EU is stupid. A lot of others don't view it that way.

Regardless, this is off-topic.

It is dumb I could, I could write a book saying Darth Evlilitis is the most powerful sith and lots of fanboys would jump all over it. I could make up shit like "oh yeah Darth Evilitis can shoot sith flames out of his hands and fly, oh yeah and he doesn't need a lightsaber he has a forcesaber."

@Batnandez: What are you talking about? Your character you mentioned does not exist. And its not dumb. There are rules and law abided by, nothing changes Palpatine and Luke being the most powerful Jedi/Sith, as Lucas has said, and it remains true in the EU as well.

@ShootingNova said:

@DarthShap: Are you being serious?

I suggest you read the EU, it took the entire Order (and yes, the entire order) including Luke and Leia, as well as all the spirits of the Jedi from the past, so all the Jedi from the past and the present, in order to finally defeat him. His EP VI death was nothing, he simply transferred his essence into his clone bodies on Byss.

I read it all but all of that kind of became pointless once the prophecy of the Chosen one was introduced. LucasFilm should have Retconned Dark Empire and Empire's End a decade ago. Otherwise, are Han Solo and freakin' Empatojayos Brand the real Chosen Ones?

Even Lucasfilm does not know what to do with this stupid saga. That is why they had Lumiya say that he was just a crazy clone, not a real Sith Lord, because it obviously no longer works with the canon.

Palpatine maybe

Currently, everyone, since Yoda's dead.

I think to really judge this you need to determine what era of Yoda you're talking about. Are we talking about Return of the Jedi Yoda or Revenge of the Sith Yoda or apocryphal books Yoda?

Not even wasting time on the Cade/Krayt nonsense. It should be obvious to anyone knowledgeable on the subject how vastly inferior both are to Yoda. Others have already addressed the ineptitude of claims that Revan or Bane are comparable to Yoda. So far, the only definitively right answers are Palpatine and NR/NJO era Luke (Legacy era Luke is too inconsistent to be conclusively stated as superseding Yoda, in my opinion). Plagueis, Nihilus, Jacen/Caedus, and Vitiate can be argued. (Of course, I am limiting my answers only to Force traditions/religions/cults; as Nova mentioned, Abeloth and the Ones, as well as the Bedlam spirits, should be clearly above Yoda.)

@DarthShap said: 

He was simply the best during his lifetime

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Feats:

• Destroying droid C-9979 landing vessels
• Causing an avalanche
• Perceiving events and eventualities throughout the galaxy
• Altering the tides of battles by influencing armies and fleets
• Absorbing and redirecting Force Lightning
• Projecting Force Light
• Rendering himself immovable against forces moving ships
• Fighting faster than Anakin or an augmented Count Dooku

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

--Taken from Insider #62

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded 

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

http://web.archive.org/web/20051125042817/http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/production/news20000711b.html  

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Feats:

• Defeating Mace Windu in lightsaber combat
• Defeating Count Dooku in lightsaber combat and on another occasion defeating Count Dooku while the latter augmented his powers with ambient Force energies on Vjun
• Fighting as an equal with Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat

and even after his death, he managed to put Luke Skykalwer into a coma with one blow.

Yavin 4, it turned out, had been the seat of power of a formidable Dark Lord of the Sith, a fallen Jedi known as Exar Kun. He had been seduced to the dark side when he studied the ways of the Sith and incorporated their magics into his manipulation of the Force. He had come to Yavin 4 and had enslaved the Massassi people. He used them to create all the temples on the world to help focus his power.

Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go. I slumped to my side and involuntarily flinched as his shade came to cover me. "Just because you never saw me affect the material world, it doesn't mean I couldn't. And even if it is something of an effort to do so, here, in my stronghold, it is a pleasure beyond your possible ken."

Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber. For a moment, and only for a moment, he was roused partially from his stupor by the bright presence of a man strong in the Force. Slowly extending his feelers in the direction of the mysterious man, Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to top this energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.
A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form. To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.
Kun finds Gantoris, strong-willed and impatient to learn, to be a more promising first candidate. He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him—by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn. Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting hi to use Sith power to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.
Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.
Kun has just begun edging in on Streen when Kyp Durron arrives at the Jedi Academy. Kun immediately senses in the young man his ideal subject. Like Gantoris, Kyp is strong-willed and impatient to learn. Moreover, he is far more powerful than the Eol Sha leader, and young enough to be overconfident and naive.
Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

On the two occasions he was defeated it took the ENTIRE Jedi Order of that time period to do so.

Well, he required a lot more than Sidious to defeat him, who Yoda could not beat.

His body mortally wounded by Han Solo, Palpatine tracked down the Solos and desperately sought to transfer his fading essence to the infant Anakin Solo. He was blocked and absorbed by the dying Jedi, Brand, who promised that he and all the other Jedi spirits would ensure the dark sider never returned—a fate Palpatine had feared above all others. The Emperor's reign was over for good.

I read it all but all of that kind of became pointless once the prophecy of the Chosen one was introduced. LucasFilm should have Retconned Dark Empire and Empire's End a decade ago. Otherwise, are Han Solo and freakin' Empatojayos Brand the real Chosen Ones?

Even Lucasfilm does not know what to do with this stupid saga. That is why they had Lumiya say that he was just a crazy clone, not a real Sith Lord, because it obviously no longer works with the canon.

@Silver2467: How long would Yoda last in a fight vs Sidious if both were at peak?

@Silver2467: Thanks.

@Silver2467:

Silver laying down the law, ladies and gentlemen. Also:

@Silver2467 said:

Not even wasting time on the Cade/Krayt nonsense. It should be obvious to anyone knowledgeable on the subject how vastly inferior both are to Yoda.

QFT. It's a ridiculous idea.

Darth Revan... Maybe... and that's a big maybe. Actually I doubt it, never mind. Unless someone more knowledgeable than I says otherwise.

@jobiwankenobi said:

Darth Revan... Maybe... and that's a big maybe. Actually I doubt it, never mind. Unless someone more knowledgeable than I says otherwise.

No, please stop with the Revan nonsense. Revan is barely above average compared to the Jedi Masters of the ROTE era. He has zero saber feats and his most illustrious force feat is re-directing a featless Sith Lord's lightning back at her.

Obi-Wan would destroy Revan in combat and arguably even in regards to force.

@DarthShap: Honestly, I don't see you even understand any of this. Han Solo only killed Palpatine when Palpatine was attempting to possess Leia's unborn child. In any regard, Palpatine has far better feats and has been stated numerous times to be the most powerful Sith Lord, if you would like said quotes I would be happy to give them to you.

@jobiwankenobi said:

Darth Revan... Maybe... and that's a big maybe. Actually I doubt it, never mind. Unless someone more knowledgeable than I says otherwise.

This is the sole most ridiculous comment ever. Show me feats from Revan to prove this, like any of it. Revan's duelling skills were about on-par with a mediocre Jedi Master, while his Force Powers were not even remotely capable of matching or exceeding Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi alone defeats him.

@Silver2467 said:

I will not get into an argument about feats against feats. We do not see much of Exar Kun and everything we see is extraordinary. Yoda just used existing powers well.

I read it all but all of that kind of became pointless once the prophecy of the Chosen one was introduced. LucasFilm should have Retconned Dark Empire and Empire's End a decade ago. Otherwise, are Han Solo and freakin' Empatojayos Brand the real Chosen Ones?

Even Lucasfilm does not know what to do with this stupid saga. That is why they had Lumiya say that he was just a crazy clone, not a real Sith Lord, because it obviously no longer works with the canon.

Evidently, you have no idea what the Chosen One prophecy entails. The Chosen One prophecy is not meant to just kill Sith. Its purpose is to balance the Force and life in the galaxy. The Sith needed to be eliminated because their grip on the galaxy shifted the Force's balance. The balance of the Force is largely dependent on the status of life throughout the galaxy. If life in the galaxy is secure, the balance remains; if not, the balance becomes unstable. The two primary proponents of security in the galaxy are the Jedi and the Republic. They retain order throughout the galaxy for the defense and quality of life, but because of their vast reach, as the Republic encapsulated most of the millions of worlds in the galaxy with the Jedi serving as far as the Republic extends, these two entities can also be a detriment if they become lax in their responsibilities. This is exactly what happened. During the Rise of the Empire era, the Republic became corrupt and the Jedi Order stagnant, both unfocused and misdirected. As a result, life was demeaned on a grand enough scale that the balance of the Force became shaky. The Banite Sith exploited this opportunity, both by continuing to feed the complacency of the Republic and the Jedi, and also by Plagueis and Sidious enacting rituals where they would consciously decide to imbalance the Force. The two of them were aware of the fact that midi-chlorians, which are the Force's intermediaries, conveyed the will of the Force, and if by wresting control over the Force's intermediaries, they could influence the Force. In this way, they meant to subjugate the Force to their own machinations, as the Force's imbalance toward the dark side would blind an already vision-strained Jedi Order. To a degree, they succeeded, and as a result of the Republic and the Jedi failing in their respective mandates to edify life and the Sith knowingly defying the Force's will further, the Force lost balance.

To restore the balance would be a threefold process: 1) The Sith who caused and embody the imbalance would need to be killed; 2) the Republic would need to return to its proper service; and 3) the Jedi Order would need to revitalize its function. If these are accomplished, then life will be taken care of and, by extension, the Force will resume its normal, inclined status: to balance its own mirrored variation of the light and dark sides that preside in sentient, thinking beings. And all of this was met. Anakin destroyed Darth Vader and Darth Sidious, undermining the being who embodied the dark side. The Empire crumbled without the Emperor's control as it ceases to be a competent system without his leadership through the Force, and instead, the New Republic was established without the corruption of the previous Republic. And lastly, the Jedi Order was re-established, starting with only one active Jedi (Luke) who then rebuilt the Order en masse with precepts and philosophical leanings of better merit than the previous Order. So, all of that was done. Which begs the question: How does Palpatine reviving fit into all this? Just fine.

His return was not precluded by the Chosen One prophecy. The reasons he had to be killed were so that the Empire (which he made to be useless without his personal rule) would collapse and allow a governmental system that promotes peace and life to come into fruition and so that the dark side would be dispersed without his material presence. Palpatine's spirit manifesting in a physical body does nothing to change that. He was absent from the galaxy in a physical way for roughly a year before he finally returned to Byss and occupied one of his clones. By then, the effects of the imbalance had been undone, and he can't just cause another imbalance by nothing. Again, for the Force to be imbalanced, life has to be demeaned on a titanic scope, and the Sith have to abuse an opportunity to exercise sovereignty over the Force. Palpatine was no longer able to do that because there was no longer a chance to. The Republic and the Jedi upon his return, while young, did their jobs well, much better than the Old Republic and Jedi Order did. And besides that, Plagueis and Sidious openly opposing the Force's will (or natural inclination and status) was only successful because the Force's relenting simultaneously conceived of its Chosen One to defeat them. Sidious would no longer be able to cause that to happen again. And because the balance of the Force had been restored by his death and the foundation of the New Republic and life-focused Jedi, he had lost his claim to power over the Force, and he could no longer physically embody the power of the dark side in the same way again. He was still a Sith Lord, of course (the only remaining true Sith), but his incognito work on Byss meant that he had to work from the ground up all over again but this time in a far more limited capacity against a Republic and Jedi who value life.

It should be noted also that in spite of the fact that the Emperor was more powerful than he ever had been before during Dark Empire, nothing seemed to work for him; whereas, in the Rise of the Empire era, nearly everything went as he planned. This is because the dark side was no longer in ascendancy; so the Force was once again an obstacle to his success during DE. Palpatine's plan for the Empire was to spread it over the entire universe, and his underlying wish was that he either rule all life in the universe or have the universe burn on his funeral pyre. His system of thinking (which has been very well defined in several sources, such as the novels Darth Plagueis, Revenge of the Sith, and Return of the Jedi, among numerous others. and other works such as Dark Empire Sourcebook, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, and Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, etc.) is antithetical to the Force's natural inclinations, which is all-inclusive, accepting both life and death, but ultimately servicing life (the Force always existed, originally as the Dark, and is the source of all life; more, even though all life dies and even though the universe eventually undergoes entropy, all life rejoins the Force after death and the universe is rekindled from the previous universe, showing the perpetual cycle of life that the Force provides). Because of this, Palpatine had lost his chance. The New Republic and Luke (being the only active Jedi at the time) coincided with the Force's will and, as a result, were instruments of its inclinations. Obviously then, they would beat an enemy like Palpatine, who does everything possible to proliferate his self-aggrandizement, even at the expense of all life in the universe and the Force itself (his egocentric opinions have led to borderline solipsist statements such as, "I am the dark matter that binds and drives the galaxy," "I am the Senate," "I am the Empire," "I am the universe," and finally "I am the dark side."). In short, Palpatine had nothing to work with. He had an agenda to recapture the galaxy by accumulating the resources of the fragmented Empire, but he failed. The Force was against him, and so was a solid Republic and Jedi.

Now you are just making shit up. Two to three years ago, I had read pretty much all the books, all the comics and all the guides and NONE of them explained what the prophecy actually was, beyond what the movies said about it. I am pretty sure it has not changed since and you are just interpreting things your way so that it works with your objective.

The question is not "How does Palpatine reviving fit into all this?" it is "How does Palpatine surviving fit into all this?" because he did not die, he just lost his body. And the answer is obvious, it just does not.

You can make shit up about what the prophecy means but you cannot escape the fact that the only G-Canon we know of it is the fact that two Sith needed to be killed. According to Dark Empire, one of them did not die. That's just this simple. I just do not get why Star Wars fans cannot accept inconsistencies as such. Has TCW teach you nothing?

@ShootingNova: Nice post, I was basing my post off of what little I've seen, so I accept being wrong quite openly lol.

I will not get into an argument about feats against feats. We do not see much of Exar Kun and everything we see is extraordinary. Yoda just used existing powers well.

Now you are just making shit up. Two to three years ago, I had read pretty much all the books, all the comics and all the guides and NONE of them explained what the prophecy actually was, beyond what the movies said about it. I am pretty sure it has not changed since and you are just interpreting things your way so that it works with your objective.

The question is not "How does Palpatine reviving fit into all this?" it is "How does Palpatine surviving fit into all this?" because he did not die, he just lost his body. And the answer is obvious, it just does not.

You can make shit up about what the prophecy means but you cannot escape the fact that the only G-Canon we know of it is the fact that two Sith needed to be killed. According to Dark Empire, one of them did not die. That's just this simple. I just do not get why Star Wars fans cannot accept inconsistencies as such. Has TCW teach you nothing?

The current period is not the only time servants of evil have used the Force for vast power. The Dark Side’s influence has waxed and waned throughout history.

More than a century before, when Tenebrous had been but a Sith apprentice himself, the magnificent computational power of his Bith brain had led him far beyond the simplistic Force studies imposed on him by his Master. He had always been far too intelligent to be seduced by the traditional Sith metaphysical twaddle of dark destiny and the witless fantasy of endless war against the equally witless Jedi Order. Soon he had confirmed to his own satisfaction that the dark side of the Force, far from being some malevolent mystic sentience bent on spreading suffering throughout the Galaxy, was in truth merely an energy source, and a tool with which he could impose his will upon reality. It was a sort of natural amplifier he could use to multiply the effectiveness of his many useful abilities.
None of which was more useful than his matchless intellect.
Like many Sith before him, he had turned his powers toward knowledge of the future. But unlike any Sith before him, he had the enormous brain of his people, which combined sheer brute processing power with a level of analytic precision simply beyond the capacity of any other species. The future was always in motion, and while other Sith always struggled to foresee the faintest, least specific hints of what was to come, Tenebrous had no need to see the future.
He could calculate it.
While still merely an apprentice, his analysis had shown him the inevitable end of the Banite Sith and its preposterous Rule of Two. His calculations plainly indicated the coming of a shadow so vast it would darken the galaxy entirely—so vast it would mark the end of both Jedi and Sith as the universe had known them heretofore. The rise of the shadow would be the end of history itself.
Tenebrous had not the slightest doubt that the entire galaxy would measure time according to its arrival. Events would be marked by how long they had preceded the shadow, or how long after it they followed.
Though the exact nature of the great shadow remained occult, the remorseless logic of his extrapolation detailed the coming destruction of the Banite system, and the rise of what would become known as the "One Sith." One Sith! The conclusion was so obvious as to require no confirmation: one single Sith Lord would arise of such power that he'd have no need of any apprentice nor fear the Jedi. He would take and hold the galaxy by his own hand alone. Without an apprentice—or a Jedi Order—to destroy him, the One Sith would rule forever!
A heady prospect, with only a single drawback: Tenebrous was not to be that Sith Lord. His own death was clearly foretold, entirely inevitable, and it would precede the shadow by decades.

Now Tenebrous touched upon his apprentice's powers of foresight, which were also vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed. For a moment, Tenebrous found his perception cast far forward in time—to Plagueis' own death at the hands of his apprentice, who was himself only visible as a smear of darkness...
A shadow!

Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy.

In the world of the Jedi, the balance of life within the Force was the pathway to understanding and peace.

The Force was a complex and difficult concept. The Force was rooted in the balance of all things, and every movement within its flow risked an upsetting of that balance. A Jedi sought to keep the balance in place, to move in concert to its pace and will. But the Force existed on more than one plane, and achieving mastery of its multiple passages was a lifetime's work.

It is a metaphor for the universal nature of life itself, vibrant, dynamic, and dangerous. All Jedi are permeated by the Force, just as all beings are, but the Jedi are most aware of it. Events in one region might affect another as if the galaxy were one interconnected being, with the Force as its blood and life.

When confronted with a life-or-death struggle, however, a Jedi may have to kill to complete her mission. This act is always unfortunate, because deliberately ending a life strengthens the dark side. However, if the cause is justified—if the Jedi is protecting others, serving the will of the Force, or even merely acting in self-defense—then the light side is equally strengthened.

Nevertheless, the Jedi serve the Republic. The Jedi act to preserve the Republic, to uphold its laws and ideals and to protect its citizens, but they hold no rank in the Republic hierarchy.

As it became increasingly clear that no opponent could inflict serious damage on the galactic government, the Republic grew progressively stagnant. Freed from having to work to save civilization itself, elected officials fell prey to complacency, boredom, greed, and eventually corruption. Apathy and indolence created many opportunities for crime and graft. The Republic began falling apart. It is impossible to say exactly when the Republic passed the point of possible recovery, but clearly somewhere between the blockade of Naboo and the height of the Clone Wars, the Republic died. The Jedi bear some responsibility for the death of the Republic.

It sometimes seemed to Valorum that the Jedi behaved as if the Force ruled the ordinary world, and that the role of the Jedi was to behave in such a way that a balance between good and evil, light and dark, was forever preserved—lest the scales tip one way or the other, opening a portal for the dark to come streaming in, or for allowing the light to blind everyone to some greater truth.

Anakin was somehow a pivot point, the fulcrum of a lever with Obi-Wan on one side, Palpatine on the other, and the galaxy in the balance, but the dark cloud on the Force prevented his perception from reaching into the future for so much as a hint of where this might lead. The balance was already so delicate that he could not guess the outcome of any given shift: the slightest tip in any direction would generate chaotic oscillation. Anything could happen. Anything at all.

Plagueis began to pace the cool floor. “No Sith have ever been in the position in which we now find ourselves, Darth Sidious: in step with the reemergence of the dark side, fortified by the signs and omens, certain that revenge and victory are near at hand. If the Jedi would abide by their philosophy of acting in accordance with the Force, of doing what is right, they would roll over for the dark. But they resist. Yoda and the rest of the Council members will double their meditation sessions in an effort to peer into the future, only to discover it clouded and unknowable. Only to discover that complacency has opened the door to catastrophe.
“If indeed they have been acting in accordance with the Force, how could we be succeeding in tipping the balance? How could the dark side be gaining ground? In fact, the Jedi have fallen away from their self assigned duty, their noble path. Could they have prevented it? Perhaps by having remained in control of the Republic, by electing and reelecting Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Or perhaps by absenting themselves completely from the affairs of the Republic, and attending to their arcane rituals in the belief that right thinking by them would keep the Republic strong and on course, the galaxy tipped into the light, instead of having allowed themselves to become marshals and enforcers.”
He cast a questioning look at Sidious. “Do you see the grand error of their ways? They execute the Republic’s business as if it were the business of the Force! But has a political body ever succeeded in being the arbiter of what is right and just? How easy it is for them to bask in self-assurance in their castle on Coruscant. But in so doing, they have rendered themselves ill equipped for the world we have spent a millennium bringing into being.”
He cleared his throat.
“We’re going to back them into a contradiction, Darth Sidious. We’re going to force them to confront the moral quandary of their position, and reveal their flaws by requiring them to oversee the conflicts that plague their vaunted Republic.
“Only Dooku and a handful of others have grasped the truth. All those years ago when I first met him on Serenno, I thought: What a blow it would be to the Order if he could be enticed to leave and embrace the dark side. What a panic it might incite. For if one could leave, then ten or twenty or thirty could follow, and the hollowness at the center of the Order would be plain for all to see.”
The Muun’s eyes narrowed. “One can’t be content to abide by the rules of the Jedi Order or the Force. Only by making the Force serve us have we prevailed. Eight years ago we shifted the galaxy, Darth Sidious, and that shift is now irreversible.”

Obi-Wan's eyes narrowed. "Mine wasn't a case of blind luck."
Yoda shook his head. "Meant to learn of the clone army, we were. Destined to fight this war, we were."
"In the nick of time. The Council couldn't conceive of Dooku as anything but an idealist. Perhaps he never believed that the Jedi could become generals."
"Nonsense," Yoda said. "Warriors always have we been."
"But are we helping to return balance to the Force, or are our actions contributing to the growth of the dark side?"
Yoda grimaced. "Impatient with such talk I grow. Cryptic this conflict is—the way it began, the way it unfolds. But for the ideals of the Republic we fight. To prevail and restore peace our priorities must remain. Then to the dark heart of this matter will we burrow. Expose the truth, we will."

It was into such times that Dooku had been born, placed because of a strong connection to the Force among an Order that had grown complacent, self-involved, arrogant about the power they wielded in the name of the Republic. Turning a blind eye to injustices the Republic had little interest in eradicating, because of profitable deals forged among those who held the reins of command.

Even though he'd had centuries to grow accustomed to foreboding, he had lived far longer without it. The dark side never completely disappeared—it scratched at the surface like an insect crawling across a transparisteel panel—and he had been able to sense its incremental increases in strength when the Jedi erred, or when the Republic erred, and soon the two were hand in hand.
Drawn into the mistakes of the Republic, the Jedi had been. But knowingly, and sometimes with full complicity. Allowed the dark side to take root, the Jedi had. Allowed arrogance to infect the Order, the Jedi had. A priority, holding on to power had become. Inflated by their own conquests, the Jedi became.
Some Jedi believed that Yoda wasn't aware of these things, or that he hadn't done enough to stem the tide of the dark side. Some believed that the Council had acted improperly or, worse, ineptly. What they failed to understand was that, once rooted, the growth of the dark side was inexorable, and could only be reversed by the one born to restore balance.
Yoda was not that one.

Obi-Wan's heart clenched. This was not the Mace Windu he knew and admired; it was as though the darkness in the Force was so much thicker here on Coruscant that it had breathed poison into Mace's spirit—and perhaps was even breeding suspicion and dissension among the members of the Jedi Council.
The greatest danger from the darkness outside came when Jedi fed it with the darkness within.

This comparison is false. There IS death in nature, but there is balance, too. The mistake of the dark side is that it leads to a selfish hoarding of power. This imbalance causes harm to millions.
—Luke

Bane was wrong. The Force IS fire. When the Emperor held power, the Jedi were nearly extinguished and the galaxy suffered. I have worked to restore the Jedi Order, and we grow stronger as we pass the flame—our light spreads.
—Luke

The nature of the Force was considered to be a constant, but this belief changed some 200 years before the Battle of Yavin, when Jedi Masters began to find their connection to the Force had become nebulous or darkened. This change culminated with the ascension of Emperor Palpatine to power, when the Sith were finally able to gain complete control over the galaxy.

As the Republic is reorganized into the Galactic Empire, there are many who are grateful to Emperor Palpatine for ending decades of corruption in the Senate, and who believe that he will fulfill his vow to restore stability to he galaxy. Even as his opponents continue to vanish, few comprehend that the Emperor's New Order is based on tyranny, brutality, and hatred of nonhumans. Aliens are not only persecuted but enslaved to the Empire. Funds are diverted from social programs into a massive military buildup. By the time the Imperial subjects realize that they are kept in a state of constant fear in order to maintain "stability," Palpatine has the full support of his awesome Imperial Navy as well as the crime syndicate Black Sun, and has eliminated most of his adversaries.

"Jedi create light, but the Sith do not create darkness. They merely use the darkness that is always there. That has always been there. Greed and jealousy, aggression and lust and fear—these are all natural to sentient beings. The legacy of the jungle. Our inheritance from the dark."

Under its new Supreme Chancellor, the Republic recovered somewhat, then grew more corrupt and beset with problems than before.

Four years after the Battle of Naboo, the Galactic Senate reelects Supreme Chancellor Palpatine to a second term. Palpatine continues to maintain order in the Senate, forges alliances with powerful figures, remains free from scandal, and—unlike some humans—never displays any indication of bias against different species or cultures. Bur during his reign, many Senators come to question the very foundation of the Republic, which seems to have evolved into nothing more than a political machine designed to funnel money and resources to the capital world of Coruscant. Unrest and dissent is beginning to spread throughout the galaxy, and in these increasingly troubled times, Palpatine frequently seeks help from the Jedi.

Darth Vader stepped out of the long, cylindrical elevator into which had been the Death Star control room, and now was the Emperor's throne room. Two royal guards stood either side of the door, red robes from neck to toe, red helmets covering all but eyeslits that were actually electrically modified view-screens. Their weapons were always drawn. The room was dim except for the light cables running either side of the elevator shaft, carrying power and information through the space station. Vader walked across the sleek black steel floor, past the humming giant converter engines, up the short flight of steps to the platform level upon which sat the Emperor's throne. Beneath this platform, off to the right, was the mouth of the shaft that delved deeply into the pit of the battle station, down to the very core of the power unit. The chasm was black, and reeked of ozone, and echoed continuously in a low, hollow rumble.
At the end of the overhanging platform was a wall, in the wall, a huge, circular observation window. Sitting in an elaborate control-chair before the window, staring out into space, was the Emperor. The uncompleted half of the Death Star could be seen immediately beyond the windows, shuttles and transports buzzing around it, men with tight-suits and rocket packs doing exterior construction or surface work. In the near-distance beyond all this activity was the jade green moon Endor, resting like a jewel on the black velvet of space—and scattered to infinity, the gleaming diamonds that were the stars.
The Emperor sat, regarding this view, as Vader approached from behind. The Lord of the Sith kneeled and waited. The Emperor let him wait. He perused the vista before him with a sense of glory beyond all reckoning: this was all his. And more glorious still, all by his own hand. 
For it wasn't always so. Back in the days when he was merely Senator Palpatine, the galaxy had been a Republic of stars, cared for and protected by the Jedi Knighthood that had watched over it for centuries. But inevitably it had grown too large—too massive a bureaucracy had been required, over too many years, in order to maintain the Republic. Corruption had set in.
A few greedy senators had started the chain reaction of malaise, some said; but who could know? A few perverted bureaucrats, arrogant, self-serving—and suddenly a fever was in the stars. Governor turned on governor, values eroded, trusts were broken—fear had spread like an epidemic in those early years, rapidly and without visible cause, and no one knew what was happening, or why. And so Senator Palpatine had seized the moment. Through fraud, clever promises, and astute political maneuvering, he'd managed to get himself elected head of the Council. And through subterfuge, bribery, and terror, he'd named himself Emperor. 
Emperor. It had a certain ring to it. The Republic had crumbled, the Empire was resplendent with its own fires, and would always be so—for the Emperor knew what others refused to believe: the dark forces were the strongest. He'd known this all along, in his heart of hearts—but relearned it every day: from traitorous lieutenants who betrayed their superiors for favors; from weak-principled functionaries who gave him the secrets of local star systems' governments; from greedy landlords, and sadistic gangsters, and power-hungry politicians. No one was immune, they all craved the dark energy at their core. The Emperor had simply recognized this truth, and utilized it—for his own aggrandizement, of course.
For his soul was the black center of the Empire.
He contemplated the dense impenetrability of the deep space beyond the window. Densely black as his soul—as if he were, in some real way, this blackness; as if his inner spirit was itself the void over which he reigned. He smiled at the thought; he was the Empire; he was the Universe.

War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception.

Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith.

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force.

“The Bith—Venamis...”
“Dispatched by Tenebrous to test me—to eliminate me had I failed. But Venamis has been a gift; essential in helping me unlock some of the deepest secrets of the Force. Every creature you have glimpsed or sensed here has been a similar blessing, as you will see when I lead you into the mysteries.”
“What did the droid mean when it said the Magister’s pregnancies?”
Beneath the breath mask, Plagueis might have quirked a smile. “It means that the pregnancies were not achieved by normal means of conception, but rather through the Force.”
Surprise and disbelief mingled in Sidious’s blue eyes. “The Force?”
“Yes,” Plagueis said pensively. “But I failed to exercise due caution. As we attempt to wrest the powers of life and death from the Force, as we seek to tip the balance, the Force resists our efforts. Action and reaction, Sidious. Something akin to the laws of thermodynamics. I have been audacious, and the Force has tested me the way Tenebrous sought to. Midi-chlorians are not easily persuaded to execute the dictates of one newly initiated in the mysteries. The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one’s intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back.”

Palpatine’s eyes sparkled in sadistic delight. Valorum was getting everything he deserved. He had demonstrated some diplomatic skill during the Stark Hyperspace War, but his election to the chancellorship had more to do with a pedigree that included three Supreme Chancellors and deals he had cut with influential families like the Kalpanas and the Tarkins of Eriadu. His adulation of the Jedi Order was well known; less so his hypocrisy—much of his family wealth derived from lucrative contracts his ancestors had entered into with the Trade Federation. His election seven years earlier had been one of the signs Plagueis had been waiting for—the return to power of a Valorum—and had followed on the heels of a remarkable breakthrough Plagueis and Sidious had engineered in manipulating midi-chlorians. A breakthrough the Muun had described as “galactonic.” Both of them suspected that the Jedi had sensed it as well, light-years distant on Coruscant.

And so it had been left largely to Sidious to bring the same fervor to the manipulation of events in the mundane world that Plagueis brought to the manipulation of midi-chlorians. Instead of challenging each other, they had both dedicated themselves to executing the Grand Plan. Political mastery and mastery of the Force. Someday soon, the Sith would wield both, with Sidious the face of the former and Plagueis behind the scenes, advising him about the latter. Like Plagueis, Sidious had moved judiciously, for unintended repercussions in the real world could be as damaging to the Sith imperative as blowback from the Force. The fact that the Force had not struck back argued that their partnership was something unique and in accordance with the will of the Force. Plagueis’s self-imposed isolation had taken a toll on some of the plans he and Sidious had engineered for the Trade Federation and other groups. But Plagueis had made what amounted to a full recovery from his injuries, and the dark side was no longer simply on the ascendant but risen and climbing toward the zenith.

Plagueis began to pace the cool floor. “No Sith have ever been in the position in which we now find ourselves, Darth Sidious: in step with the reemergence of the dark side, fortified by the signs and omens, certain that revenge and victory are near at hand. If the Jedi would abide by their philosophy of acting in accordance with the Force, of doing what is right, they would roll over for the dark. But they resist. Yoda and the rest of the Council members will double their meditation sessions in an effort to peer into the future, only to discover it clouded and unknowable. Only to discover that complacency has opened the door to catastrophe.
“If indeed they have been acting in accordance with the Force, how could we be succeeding in tipping the balance? How could the dark side be gaining ground? In fact, the Jedi have fallen away from their self assigned duty, their noble path. Could they have prevented it? Perhaps by having remained in control of the Republic, by electing and reelecting Jedi Supreme Chancellors. Or perhaps by absenting themselves completely from the affairs of the Republic, and attending to their arcane rituals in the belief that right thinking by them would keep the Republic strong and on course, the galaxy tipped into the light, instead of having allowed themselves to become marshals and enforcers.”
He cast a questioning look at Sidious. “Do you see the grand error of their ways? They execute the Republic’s business as if it were the business of the Force! But has a political body ever succeeded in being the arbiter of what is right and just? How easy it is for them to bask in self-assurance in their castle on Coruscant. But in so doing, they have rendered themselves ill equipped for the world we have spent a millennium bringing into being.”
He cleared his throat.
“We’re going to back them into a contradiction, Darth Sidious. We’re going to force them to confront the moral quandary of their position, and reveal their flaws by requiring them to oversee the conflicts that plague their vaunted Republic.
“Only Dooku and a handful of others have grasped the truth. All those years ago when I first met him on Serenno, I thought: What a blow it would be to the Order if he could be enticed to leave and embrace the dark side. What a panic it might incite. For if one could leave, then ten or twenty or thirty could follow, and the hollowness at the center of the Order would be plain for all to see.”
The Muun’s eyes narrowed. “One can’t be content to abide by the rules of the Jedi Order or the Force. Only by making the Force serve us have we prevailed. Eight years ago we shifted the galaxy, Darth Sidious, and that shift is now irreversible.”

Time is short.
Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.
From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.
Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.
But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.
Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.
But he had yet to inform Sidious of this.
It was more important that Sidious remain as focused on manipulating events in the profane world as Plagueis was intent on dominating the realm of the Force, of which the mundane was only a gross and distorted reflection.
To be sure, the light had been extinguished, but for how long and at what cost?
He recalled a stellar eclipse he had witnessed on a long-forgotten world, whose single moon was of perfect size and distance to blot out the light of the system’s primary. The result hadn’t been total darkness but illumination of a different sort, singular and diffuse, that had confused the birds and had permitted the stars to be seen in what would have been broad daylight. Even totally blocked, the primary had shone from behind the satellite’s disk, and when the moon moved on there had been a moment of light almost too intense to bear.
Gazing into Sojourn’s darkening sky, he wondered what calamity the Force was planning in retreat to visit upon him or Sidious or both of them for willfully tipping the balance. Was retribution merely waiting in the wings as it had been on Coruscant twenty years earlier? It was a dangerous time; more dangerous than his earliest years as an apprentice when the dark side might have consumed him at any moment.
For now, at least, his full convalescence was near complete. Sidious was continuing to become more powerful as a Sith and as a politician, his most intricate schemes meeting with little or no resistance. And the Jedi Order was foundering...
Time would tell, and time was short.

Plagueis entered the room that had served as his meditation chamber. Though the high-ceilinged space was already fixed in his memory, he studied the few pieces of furniture in silence, as if searching for some detail that had escaped his notice. His eyes lingered on the small antechamber in which he and Sidious had been sitting when they had brought about the shift, and the strength of that memory was such that he was catapulted into a moment of intense reverie.

Palpatine’s eyes sparkled in sadistic delight. Valorum was getting everything he deserved. He had demonstrated some diplomatic skill during the Stark Hyperspace War, but his election to the chancellorship had more to do with a pedigree that included three Supreme Chancellors and deals he had cut with influential families like the Kalpanas and the Tarkins of Eriadu. His adulation of the Jedi Order was well known; less so his hypocrisy—much of his family wealth derived from lucrative contracts his ancestors had entered into with the Trade Federation. His election seven years earlier had been one of the signs Plagueis had been waiting for—the return to power of a Valorum—and had followed on the heels of a remarkable breakthrough Plagueis and Sidious had engineered in manipulating midi-chlorians. A breakthrough the Muun had described as “galactonic.” Both of them suspected that the Jedi had sensed it as well, light-years distant on Coruscant.

The Muun’s eyes narrowed. “One can’t be content to abide by the rules of the Jedi Order or the Force. Only by making the Force serve us have we prevailed. Eight years ago we shifted the galaxy, Darth Sidious, and that shift is now irreversible.”

Time is short.
Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.
From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.
Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.
But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.
Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.
But he had yet to inform Sidious of this.
It was more important that Sidious remain as focused on manipulating events in the profane world as Plagueis was intent on dominating the realm of the Force, of which the mundane was only a gross and distorted reflection.
To be sure, the light had been extinguished, but for how long and at what cost?
He recalled a stellar eclipse he had witnessed on a long-forgotten world, whose single moon was of perfect size and distance to blot out the light of the system’s primary. The result hadn’t been total darkness but illumination of a different sort, singular and diffuse, that had confused the birds and had permitted the stars to be seen in what would have been broad daylight. Even totally blocked, the primary had shone from behind the satellite’s disk, and when the moon moved on there had been a moment of light almost too intense to bear.
Gazing into Sojourn’s darkening sky, he wondered what calamity the Force was planning in retreat to visit upon him or Sidious or both of them for willfully tipping the balance. Was retribution merely waiting in the wings as it had been on Coruscant twenty years earlier? It was a dangerous time; more dangerous than his earliest years as an apprentice when the dark side might have consumed him at any moment.
For now, at least, his full convalescence was near complete. Sidious was continuing to become more powerful as a Sith and as a politician, his most intricate schemes meeting with little or no resistance. And the Jedi Order was foundering...
Time would tell, and time was short.

Plagueis entered the room that had served as his meditation chamber. Though the high-ceilinged space was already fixed in his memory, he studied the few pieces of furniture in silence, as if searching for some detail that had escaped his notice. His eyes lingered on the small antechamber in which he and Sidious had been sitting when they had brought about the shift, and the strength of that memory was such that he was catapulted into a moment of intense reverie.

Dooku smiled with his eyes, but not in mirth. “On the contrary, as you say. Since I’m interested in learning more about the possibility of an alliance.”
Palpatine adopted a hooded look. “You’re resolved to leave the Order?”
“Even more than when we last spoke.”
“Because of the Council’s decision to intervene at Naboo?”
“I can forgive them that. The blockade has to be broken. But something else has occurred.” Dooku chose his next words carefully. “Qui-Gon returned from Tatooine with a former slave boy. According to the boy’s mother, the boy had no father.”
“A clone?” Palpatine asked uncertainly.
“Not a clone,” Dooku said. “Perhaps conceived by the Force. As Qui-Gon believes.”
Palpatine’s head snapped back. “You don’t sit on the Council. How do you know this?”
“I have my ways.”
“Does this have something to do with the prophecy you spoke of?”
“Everything. Qui-Gon believes that the boy—Anakin is his name—stands at the center of a vergence in the Force, and believes further that his finding him was the will of the Force. Blood tests were apparently performed, and the boy’s concentration of midi-chlorians is unprecedented.”
“Do you believe that he is the prophesied one?”
“The Chosen One,” Dooku amended. “No. But Qui-Gon accepts it as fact, and the Council is willing to have him tested.”
“What is known about this Anakin?”
“Very little, except for the fact that he was born into slavery nine years ago and was, until recently, along with his mother, the property of Gardulla the Hutt, then a Toydarian junk dealer.” Dooku smirked. “Also that he won the Boonta Eve Classic Podrace.”
Palpatine had stopped listening.
Nine years old... Conceived by the Force... Is it possible...
His thoughts rewound at frantic speed: to the landing platform on which he and Valorum had welcomed Amidala and her group. Actually not Amidala, but one of her look-alikes. But the sandy-haired boy, this Anakin, swathed in filthy clothing, had been there, along with a Gungan and the two Jedi. Anakin had spent the night in a tiny room in his apartment suite.
And I sensed nothing about him.
“Qui-Gon is rash,” Dooku was saying. “Despite his fixation with the living Force, he demonstrates his own contradictions by being a true believer in the prophecy—a foretelling more in line with the unifying Force.”
“Nine years old,” Palpatine said when he could. “Surely too old to be trained.”
“If the Council shows any sense.”
“And what will become of the boy then?”
Dooku’s shoulders heaved. “Though no longer a slave, he will probably be sent to rejoin his mother on Tatooine.”

Plagueis came to a halt at the entry to Palpatine’s apartment. Eventually one of Queen Amidala’s near-identical handmaidens came to the door, a vision in a dark cowled robe. Her eyes fixed on the breath mask. “I’m sorry, sir,” she said, “Senator Palpatine is not here.”
“I know,” Plagueis said. “I’m here to speak with a guest of the Senator. A young human boy.”
Her eyes remained glued on the mask. “I’m not permitted—”
Damask motioned swiftly with his left hand, compelling her to answer him. “You have my permission to speak.”
“I have your permission,” she said in a distracted voice.
“Now where is the boy?”
“Anakin, you mean.”
“Anakin, yes,” he said in a rush. “He’s the one. Fetch him—now!”
“You just missed him, sir,” the handmaiden said.
Plagueis peered past her into Palpatine’s suite. “Missed him?” He straightened in anger. “Where is he?”
“Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn came to collect him, sir. I suspect that you can find him at the Jedi Temple.”
Plagueis fell back a step, his thoughts reeling.
There was still a chance that the Council would decide that Anakin was too old to be trained as a Jedi. That way, assuming he was returned to Tatooine...
But if not... If Qui-Gon managed to sway the Council Masters, and they reneged on their own dictates...
Plagueis ran a hand over his forehead. Are we undone? he thought. Have you undone us?

It was late in the evening when Plagueis made his way onto a public observatory that provided a vantage on the proprietary arabesque of a landing platform on which Queen Amidala’s Royal Starship basked in the ambient light.
With the cowl of his hood raised, he moved to one of the stationary macrobinocular posts and pressed his eyes to the cushioned eye grips. Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the boy had arrived at the platform in a Jedi ship; Amidala, her handmaidens and guards, and a loose-limbed Gungan in an open-topped hemispherical air taxi. Just then the latter group was ascending the starship’s boarding ramp, but Qui-Gon and the round-faced desert urchin had stopped short of the ship to speak about something.
What? Plagueis asked himself. What topic has summoned such an earnest look to Qui-Gon’s face, and such confused urgency in the boy?
Lifting his face from the macrobinoculars, he stretched out with the Force and fell victim to an assault of perplexing images: ferocious battles in deep space; the clashing of lightsabers; partitions of radiant light; a black-helmeted cyborg rising from a table... By the time his gaze had returned to the platform, Qui-Gon and the boy had disappeared.
Trying desperately to make some sense of the images granted him by the Force, he stood motionless, watching the starship lift from the platform and climb into the night.
He fought to repress the truth.
The boy would change the course of history.

Sidious recalled the desperate return trip to Coruscant; recalled using all his powers, and all the potions and devices contained in his medkit, to minister to Anakin's hopelessly blistered body and truncated limbs.
He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?
How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

“My experiments proved midi-chlorians could be controlled. If this is true, then could they not also be induced to create life at the molecular level? Midi-chlorians in the cells of the mother could, in theory, be persuaded o craft a zygote.
For consistency in my test subjects, I obtained hundreds of identical humanoids, each with consistent midi-chlorian level. After much experimentation, I succeeded in prodding the midi-chlorians to replicate themselves through asexual fission. Though in most cases, this process increased the numbers uncontrollably and killed the host.
But I believe that by using this method I can trick midi-chlorians into creating a zygote. Then it would simply be a matter of growing the subject under normal biological conditions. Such a subject could, of course, take years to hit the development milestone of a typical humanoid, but he could have a midi-chlorian count as high as 20,000 per cell. That is more than any Jedi or Sith in recorded history. Although entirely theoretical, such an achievement is intriguing.
If a new life form could be created where none existed before, the living could sustain their bodies indefinitely. Science has led to these conclusions, yet these events must be guarded with utmost care. For now, it remains purely theoretical.”

“I can’t help feeling a chill as I read the account by Plagueis, knowing that my father was known for his high midi-chlorian count, which was supposedly even higher than Yoda’s.”
—Luke

“The beliefs of the Jedi are expressed in ritual and storytelling. Plain language somehow eludes those who have grown up tightly wrapped in tradition.
The Jedi await the coming of a savior, a prophesied Chosen One who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. The Jedi tell of Mortis, a place of impossible geography inside the angles of a gargantuan monolith. The three all-powerful beings of Mortis can assume strange shapes and exemplify the dark side, the light side, and the principle of balance.
Compelling? It is debatable, but at the very least it is an adequate way to illustrate an allegorical point. Day coexists with night, for example and construction is always followed by ruin. Yet many of the Jedi treat the legend of Mortis as literal truth. They believe that the Chosen One will prevent these gods and demons from tearing the universe asunder—that their champion will be a vessel of pure Force energy.
So we come back to midi-chlorians. These organisms allow beings to live and provide a connection to the Force. If bred in sufficient quantities, midi-chlorians can even conceive a new life form and bestow upon it powers greater than any Jedi has ever dreamed, generating a vergence in the Force.
If I induce midi-chlorians to create such a being, my handiwork would fit all the descriptions of their Chosen One. But he would be an agent of my will. How fitting that the misguided reliance on superstition could lead to a Sith creation that is hailed by the Jedi as a savior.”

Anakin’s mother, Shmi, confirmed in her own words what Qui-Gon had already suspected—the boy was immeasurably strong in the Force. Neither knew of Darth Plagueis’s suspected involvement in inducing midi-chlorians to create life, though Shmi informed Qui-Gon that Anakin had no natural father.

Palpatine had carefully cultivated Anakin's hopes for preventing this dire premonition, and had revealed everything to Anakin: Palpatine's secret identity as Darth Sidious. His murder of his own Master, Darth Plagueis. The role that the Sith had played in creating Anakin by manipulating the midi-chlorians.

It was believed that the teachings of the Sith Lord Darth Plagueis, applied by his apprentice Darth Sidious, were instrumental in Anakin's birth, resulting in the conception of a boy with an unnaturally high midi-chlorian count.

A tremor took hold of the planet.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.
A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.
Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.
A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.
Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.
And now dead.
Or was he?
Uncertainty rippled through Sidious, rage returning to his eyes. A tremor of his own making, or one of forewarning? Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise—for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles?
If he hadn’t been concerned for his own safety, Sidious might have pitied him. Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort.
Sidious took care, still reaching out with the Force. On closer inspection, he saw that Plagueis’s already cyanotic flesh was smoothing out, his features relaxing.
Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.
Wry amusement narrowed his eyes.
The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest. But in the end—though he could save others from death—he had failed to save himself.
A sense of supreme accomplishment puffed Sidious’s chest, and his thoughts unreeled.
Well, then, that wasn’t nearly as bad as we thought it might be...
Rarely did events play out as imagined, in any case. The order of future events was transient. In the same way that the past was reconfigured by selective memory, future events, too, were moving targets. One could only act on instinct, grab hold of an intuited perfect moment, and spring into action. One heartbeat late and the universe would have recomposed itself, no imposition of will sufficient to forestall the currents. One could only observe and react. Surprise was the element absent from any periodic table. A keystone element; a missing ingredient. The means by which the Force amused itself. A reminder to all sentient beings that some secrets could never be unlocked.
Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.
His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments. In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.
The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.
Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.
Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?
Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos. Smoke was everywhere, substantial ramblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardment by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive. 
For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.
Confusion. 
Desperation. 
Damp fear.

Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.

"One of the Emperor's Force Storms destroyed the Alliance base on the moon of Da Soocha and the entire fleet above it. Every day I'm reminded how lucky we are that Palpatine is lost to Chaos forever."
—Luke

Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

But even what little faith he placed in the prophecy was enough to raise doubt that the death of a Sith could halt the advance of the dark side.

Vader, mortally injured and barely able to move, found within himself a new source of vitality. Vader hauled himself up and seized the Emperor, flinging his former Master into a reactor shaft. Though the injuries Vader sustained were beyond healing, this last act redeemed him, as his son had hoped. For a brief moment Luke and Anakin Skywalker were together as father and son. Anakin died a Jedi and became one with the Force, finally fulfilling his destiny of bringing balance to the Force. The Empire, without its Emperor, collapsed.

Fulfilling the prophecy that he will bring balance to the Force, Anakin seized the Emperor. Mortally wounded by Sith lightning, the Chosen One hurls Darth Sidious down an elevator shaft, and the Emperor explodes in a violent release of dark energy.

Following the destruction of the second Death Star, Palpatine's consciousness spent over a year drifting across space. On reaching Byss, he awakened and recuperated in the body of a clone, one of many kept in reserve. Because the clones can only contain his evil for a limited time, Palpatine strives to take possession of a strong Jedi body.

Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

@JediXMan said:

Luke Skywalker
Palpatine
Darth Caedus

Possibly more but I can't think right now. However...

NOT Starkiller, NOT Mace Windu, NOT Cade Skywalker, NOT Anakin Skywalker, NOT Leia (simply being a Skywalker means nothing) And that's all I'm going to say here.

Pretty much this.

@jobiwankenobi said:

Darth Revan... Maybe... and that's a big maybe. Actually I doubt it, never mind. Unless someone more knowledgeable than I says otherwise.

Revan basically has no feats. Well, he does, but nothing that put him anywhere near Yoda's caliber. He's a great strategist, nothing more.

@ShootingNova said:

@jobiwankenobi said:

Darth Revan... Maybe... and that's a big maybe. Actually I doubt it, never mind. Unless someone more knowledgeable than I says otherwise.

This is the sole most ridiculous comment ever. Show me feats from Revan to prove this, like any of it. Revan's duelling skills were about on-par with a mediocre Jedi Master, while his Force Powers were not even remotely capable of matching or exceeding Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi alone defeats him.

He admitted that he was probably wrong in the first place.

@JediXMan: Thank you.

The 3

Luke

Sideous

Anakin?

Abeloth

@Strafe Prower: Thanks, it's cool.

@JediXMan: He admitted he was potentially wrong. But agreed.

@Strafe Prower said:

Some of the old republic sith lords dwarf Yoda in power. Darth Sidious is also more powerful.

The old republic was insane with the force lol. Sith lords tossing fleets around with their minds... Plus it spawned the best videogames of the century!

@minigunman123: Agreed. KOTOR is one of the best Star Wars games out there. I still have it on the original Xbox.

@DarthShap said:

Two to three years ago, I had read pretty much all the books, all the comics and all the guides

I find this ridiculously difficult to believe. If you truly read every novel/guide etc., you wouldn't have been making your ridiculous "Exar Kun>>>>>Palpatine" argument.

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Darth Bane is more powerful than Yoda.

If this includes the Expanded Universe, then judging by their god-like descriptions, I'd say the Celestials.

@fojtikbt said:

Darth Bane is more powerful than Yoda.

..........

I'm sick of these Old Republic Sith Lords wank.

@Melab said:

If this includes the Expanded Universe, then judging by their god-like descriptions, I'd say the Celestials.

The Celestials have no combat feats. Perhaps you could say so, yes, but we really don't even fully know who they are. It's safer to say Abeloth, the Ones and the Bedlam Spirits because we know what they can do, and they are stated to be on a superior level than Yoda.

@coolguyr99:

Grandmaster Luke Skywalker for sure. Not so sure about Darth Sidious.. I would think they are at least equal. We never seen Yoda at his prime. It wasn't in Ep3 since he was already weakened through the force when all the Jedis died. Darth Sidious becomes ridicules strong in this event. Still Yoda did very well against the most Powerful Sith Lord ever. Starkiller is a joke compared too them. Mace is extremly powerful but not in the same league as Yoda or DS. Darth Sidious (DE), Grandmaster Luke (NJO) and Yoda are the most powerful Star Wars characters. That's a fact.

darth bane and darth nihilus

Palpatine

Sith Lord Jar Jar Binks.

Luke, Sidious, Vitiate, Abby

Nah.

Luke, Sidious, Abeloth, the Father, the Daughter, the Son, Waru, the Force Priestesses, Zonama Sekot, Yuuzhan'Tar.

Luke, Sidious, Valkorion. The Ones don't count.

Why?

• Legends Grand Master Luke comes to mind.
• The guy was just on an entirely different level and tier of power from Yoda.

@wollfmyth209: He's more powerful imo. His latest showing of ragdolling the Outlander (who abosrbed Arcann and [unchained] Vaylin's strength) with ease while weakened in a spirit form is very impressive.

@noobsnowman: He ragdolled the Outlander pre the Vaylin and Arcann fight. Against Arcann he was amped, since the lightsaber he was wielding had some weird properties to amplify the Outlander whenever he fought Arcann(it's stupid, but it's TOR) and unchained Vaylin unleashed a storm the Outlander barely powered through. And the storm was just cracking thick stones walls and incapacitated an unready Arcann and Senya.

Yoda would also throw the Outlander like a wet cloth regardless, given his parity with Sidious.

@wollfmyth209: I was referring to Chapter 9 of Knights of the Eternal Throne, when the Outlander sat on the throne. By that time, he truly reached the pinnacle of his power because he absorbed Vaylin's (and Arcann's if its DS story) strength, and Valkorion congratulated him for completing his work. Valkorion then proceeded to ragdoll the Outlander, forced him onto his knees and froze him there with a simple gesture, and then took full control of his mind. As with the Vaylin fight, I'm unsure whether I'd subscribe to Arcann and Senya being unready given how drastically superior she was compared to them, but Vaylin was definitely critically injured and getting desperate.

Sure, Yoda would throw the Outlander without Arcann and Vaylin's amp like a wet cloth, but with both their amps it's not as clear cut on whether he would straight up ragdoll him.

Sidious and Luke, out of the mortal Force users.

@noobsnowman: It didn't seem like the Outlander was defending him/herself at the time. And quite frankly, it's possible to choke someone whilst being inferior to them, it doesn't automatically equal domination(Galen vs Vader, Mara vs Jacen, Savage vs Dooku/Asajj, etc). So just a few-second long choke means little, especially when the Outlander seemed rather idle.

After the choke, it looked more like Valkorion was TPing the Outlander as oppose to ragdolling him. And yeah, Yoda would straight-up ragdoll the Outlander with the Arcann/Vaylin amp. RotS Sidious could, as well.

People thought Kun was more powerful than Sidious...