This topic is locked from further discussion.
@dredeuced said:
@wardemon32: If your excuse is "The new 52 is totally different" then why is the JL still a bunch of white people with a shoe horned in black guy? Race changing was so easy, it's a new universe, why is the entire cast of every major DC character white?
Wally West doesn't exist in any other universe, either, so that's also a dumb and irrelevant distinction. They literally marketed this as the return of Wally West. They hyped us up for months for this. Now we realize there is literally 0 chance he is even slightly similar to pre 52 Wally. I've already gone into detail in this thread about why we are clearly not getting back Wally(just a stupid name), and if your excuse is "Well I don't like reading long posts," then maybe you shouldn't stoop to blasting people on heavy subject matter. Don't call people idiots if you're too lazy to read what they have to say.
They only pull this crap on characters they have no intention of being faithful to -- they're only faithful about characters they care about. It's one of the reasons Teen Titans is complete trash, complete disregard for anything good they've done in the past. If DC is only willing to change the race of characters you don't care about, what's that say to you?
They're white because they made them so. Just because they "change" one character doesn't mean that they have to change the other. And since when Wally West doesn't have alternate versions of himself? How much has he done to say that he wont be similar to pre-52?
DC knows everyone cares about Wally. Just becuase they "changed" him doesn't mean that they don't care about him at all.
Let me break this down to you and @saren because both of you, among many others, don't seem to be reading full sentences and use logic here. So I said some are racist and some are idiots. Does that mean all of them are racist and/or idiots? No. Does that mean that I meant all are racist and idiots? Clearly not if I created a thread looking for rational people that disagrees with me, and asking them a reason why. If I actually thought what you play me off as, there would be no point in me creating this thread.
Now why would I ask people that are idiots and racist for their opinion when it's clearly stated? What would I achieve out of that?
You guys see a couple of words and you're like "OMH he just called everyone racist and idiots!". No. Read. Rewind. Think. Read.
I stopped posting because there was way too much long comments but this is short. I said they wer acting like idiots as in being irrational and then some were being racist. I've read all of their comments and came to my decision. Some are idiots; and some are racist.
I don't want to say you're what's wrong with major discussion in the 21st century public sphere, but you are what's wrong with major discussion in the 21st century public sphere. You tackle a volatile subject by throwing around buzzwords and catchphrases like "race doesn't matter" whose dimensions you barely understand, if that, and then act like your catchphrases actually have the slightest basis in reality for literally billions of people all over the planet. But that's not the worst part; that's just the smug confidence of someone who hasn't quite realized that concepts only acquire relevance when they can be applied in reality. It's fairly common. The worst part is how eager you are to figuratively plug your ears with your fingers and refuse to let anything sink in. The idea that minority characters have to be more than just the color of their skin alone because people are more than just the color of their skin alone is lost on you. The history of the publisher's regard for the character in question and the implications of choosing this particular character are lost on you. The fact that the same publisher has demonstrated repeatedly in the last three years that the current universe is not just a clean slate and that anything from the past that they need to be canon will automatically become canon is lost on you. The idea of learning something from these discussions is just too much of a bother for you, and with all that, you have the gall to think you can call someone, anyone an idiot.
Catchphrases? Really? But didn't you realize your contradiction when you said that you don't read black characters and have an emotion connection to them because they're black but then go on to say that you hate X character because she's brown and that's it? As if you were expecting something different?
Refuse to let anything sink in?
"Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out"
So you expect me to read essays from multiple people and reply to all of them in which my replies would be about the same length or so like I don't have a life? Okay then.
Because I do not reply means that I don't read? Make total sense. *fist bump*
I know people are more than just the color of their skin but you're implying that the color of your skin is synonymous as to what the "more" is of you. The idea of learning from these discussion is too much for me although I read through the comments and made the thread in the first place. But since I don't agree that means that I'm not learning? Right.
Good for you, but the rest of us have to live in the real world where it does matter. For millions of people, race affects, in a kaleidoscope of ways, the cultural experiences they're exposed to throughout their childhood, the first groups they socialize with, their opportunities for education, employment and career growth, their family lives, and even whom they'll finally marry and settle down with. All of those things go a long way into shaping who you are as a person. And you thinkrace doesn't matter? For someone who seems to enjoy throwing around the offensive tag, it startles me that you don't realize how offensive it is to assert that race doesn't matter. Government policies are constructed around race. Politicians are elected by organized votebanks of minorities who believe minority candidates are the only ones who can understand their unique concerns. The idea that race doesn't matter has been one of the biggest obstacles towards social equality, especially in the United States, where people will seize upon it to insist that if minority communities are suffering economically, it must be because they don't work as hard rather than the fact that their employment opportunities are limited as a result of their race. And you think race doesn't matter.
Race doesn't matter in......comics. How much would it really effect him? You go on about social life and family lives and all this other stuff as if blacks, whites, latinos, asians, etc., are supposed to have some sort of different life style than each other. All of which are irrelevant. Unless you're going to sit there and say "Awh Wally just married a asian girl and has a higher/lower eduacation than X race! Amn this is totally unrealistic!". You can say I'm "twisting you words" but that's my interpretation. You claim that I'm twisting words although you're taking things out of context; singling out 3 words but not putting the two extra words that is meant after that-- "in comics" ofcourse.
How offensive would it be that you say that one race can't amount to another becuase they're social life is "supposed to be different" and society has different expectations of one another and to exceed those expectations would almost but unrealistic?
Try twisting someone else's words if that's how you want to go about this. I don't want genericity in anything. No one has ever wanted genericity in anything. What I want is for a character's culture to play a part in who they are, because comics try to reflect certain realities, and in our reality, our culture does play a major part in who we are. Take Mr. Terrific, for example. He's a black man at the top of a field like technology, which has traditionally been dominated by white males. So while it's good that there's a black man in technology, what I'd like is some examination of what it's like to be a black man in technology. That's what's interesting to me, because it's a very rare perspective even in the real world, and it helps Terrific stand out as his own character. If he's just like every other character in technology, there's nothing unique about him other than the color of his skin, which is more or less tantamount to writing a white character with black skin. Minority characters don't have to face struggles all the time, but they do have unique perspectives that are a result of their background. That's reality. Ignoring the existence of those perspectives because "race doesn't matter"? That's delusion.
Twisting your words? How exactly? And when you say "...culture to play a part in who they are" you have some pre-concieved idea on the culture your grow up on is the culture you continue to grow up with. Or the skin and culture you grow up with is supposed to have some huge effect on you. But what exactly do you mean by this then? You sy play a part in who they are but who are they? Who is Wally West?
I like how you say "a white character with black skin" becuase the world needs some sort of explanation as to how a black man could be so successful. Now if there's a white character that has some poor rundown family and engages in gang activity but the writers never show how he got in this predicament then he's just a black character with white skin? You are inducing that certain races has to be a certain way in order for thigns to be "realistic" but then complain about how its offensive to say race doesn't matter as if you don't want it to matter? If you didn't then why put these chains on your mind because that's what you see around you? It's almost as if black people are seen as so low that their goals are limited and that's what blacks see themselves in their future and accept it. Because it's "the norm". Why don't we break those norms making us finally say "race doesn't matter"? The shackes has been there so long that people don't even see them anymore. "I wanna be in the NBA, I wanna be in the NFL, I wanna be a comedian" instad of I want to be in the field of technology. How did he get there? Becuase he put his mind to it.
I'm not ignoring anything. Just because things are a certain way in real life doesn't mean it has to be the same for comics. That is the special thing about comics. It hides the real world and breaks off the shackes off of everyones brains for a moment, whether you're green, purple, orange, or even blue, it gives you this imagination that inspires. So since Mr. Terrific, a black man who is in technology, is such a special thing then why not give people an aspect on things such as this? Instead of having "realistic goals", something they're already drenched in.
This reminds me when Carlton was called a "sellout". It's the people that you that makes race matter.
If Wally's skin color isn't relevant, why change it? If, by your own admission, it doesn't matter at all, then why fix what isn't broken? Was something broken? You should read my statements properly and in their full context before you quote them back to me. I said a character looking like me isn't enough for me to relate to them; not everyone who looks like me is the same or reacts in the same way. But a character like Kamala Khan who looks like me, shares the same background and experiences, and has many of the same reactions I would have had to those experiences when I was growing up? That's someone I find very relatable. But I don't need to find a character relatable to enjoy his stories or find parallels between our circumstances. There are characters I cannot relate to at all, but I enjoy reading about them nonetheless because they have unique perspectives that are new and interesting to me. In terms of minority representation, it's not important to have characters that look like me. What's important is to have characters that are like me. There is a difference between the two that you don't seem to understand. They're obviously not going to be perfectly like me, but characters of my background will share a few traits and experiences with my own if writers have given some thought into what coming from that background really means. It doesn't just mean struggle. There's more to being a minority than that.
If Wally's skin color is irrelevant then what's the problem? They're not fixing anything. You say there are characters that you can't relate to but then go on to say that you don't like whatever the characters name was because she's just there to be brown meaning that she had no relations to you other than skin color?
If it's not important to have characters to look like you but who you can relate with then why do you enjoy characters that you can't relate with? It seems like a bit of undertone in the sense that you think that if they look like you then they must be like you unless it is explained. You say it matters not about if they look like you but are like you and say that you enjoy characters that you can't relate to, but the character that looks like you but can't relate to is a problem?
But "their Flash" is gone. About anything and everything is irrelevant about Wally West after it is retconned. This is no longer the old pre-52 Universe. This is just a Universe that was left on the sidelines but is not being shown. You're talking about this as if this is the same Wally West but ignoring that everything was recreated. This is not the same thing that everyone is used to. This is essentially people with the same names and powers but different characters. The feeling of something of an alternate universe.
Yeah, it's no longer the old pre-52 universe, as long as we don't remember the long flashbacks to Cosmic Odyssey,Emerald Twilight, Guy Gardner: Warrior, Emerald Dawn II, Hand of God, Rebirth, Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, War of the Green Lanterns and all of other hallmarks of GL history that appeared in Wrath of the First Lantern, or all the flashbacks to Knightfall, Batman and Son, Batman Incorporated, A Death in the Family, The Killing Joke and all the other hallmarks of Batman history that have shown up as well. Get real, DC has obviously decided anything they want about the pre-52 universe is canon if they feel like it, even if it makes no sense narrative-wise for those things to be canon. If DC wanted the original Wally West to be part of post-52 canon, he'd be canon. For a character like the Flash that's deeply involved in time-travel and AU hijinks, it would be particularly easy to pull off.
Canon or went to the same experiences? It still doesn't change the fact that both are different characters even if they can make an experience the same which I doubt would be the case for Wally West.
So if there was never anything wrong, why did it need to be changed?
I don't think it needed to be changed and I never said that it needed to be changed. I love Wally West and who he is. Just as i love reading Spider-Man books, not because of who the kid is under the mask, but who the kid is when he speaks, walks, and react.
If DC thought something is wrong with a white ginger that is the wordls fastest man then I would argue that they are being racist and idiots also.
Make a decision about what your position is. What is the change for? Do you think DC would deliberately change something for the worse? Unlikely. Do you think they'd change it just for the sake of changing it? That's exactly the diversity-for-diversity's-sake argument. Do you think they'd change it because they think it would be better? Does that not mean they think Wally could be or needed to be improved by making him black?
You are so quick to argue against me but you don't even understand what I have to say. My position is that race doesn't matter, therefore, it doesn't matter if it was changed or not.
I love how you can manufacture a grievance and then try and claim it comes from me.
So that's your way of addressing the logic behind it?
That is a lack of respect for long-time Wally fans. It makes the action itself bad because of the underlying philosophy behind it. This isn't hard.
I'm a Wally West fan and I don't find it disrespectful at all. What is the philosophy behind it? It seems to me you're not too sure yourself.
Yes I do know that there is a black Flash. That's why in oen of my comments I said that it would be the first black male Flash. But I bet if I were to ask most people in my school if they know about her most of them would say no.
So what? I bet most people in your school wouldn't know the vast majority of DC characters or even Justice Leaguers. What does that have to do with it? What's wrong with a black female Flash? And if you need a black male Flash, why not just use Turbine, the black speedster Manapul and Buccelato introduced, and elevate him to a position of greater prominence? If a character isn't popular, make them popular. That's the writer's job. That's the reason Aquaman is going to appear in three comics with his name on the cover in July, because a writer decided they were going to make him popular no matter what. Miles Morales has his own well-received comic book now, because a writer decided they were going to make him popular. Turning an established hero black to piggy-back off the popularity of what the character used to be is just flat-out lazy.
Actually, most of the students in my school are either anime or comic nerds/experts and even have long debates on who would win and actually own comics. Even including the sports jocks. The only people that wouldn't know are most of the girls. And it's getting another black character out there. Most characters are just white.
I do agree that they should make black charaters popular but it isn't easy when no one buys comics of black characters as much. People would more likely but a black Flash because he is still Flash at the end of the day who is a well known.
So original black characters can never climb up the popularity ladder? What complete and utter nonsense. Again, if a character isn't popular, it's the writer's job to make them popular.
The irony.
You are all talking as if Pre-52 is relevant to New-52 when its not. This is a new universe.
I have.
Culture to be more than skin-deep, for starters.
Read above.
Maybe Wally will end up running so fast he turns white and ginger.
just downloaded the annual and really tried to look at it objectively but my reaction to all this mess is still best put this way
Log in to comment