How is DC's New 52 doing now?

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Aros001

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#1  Edited By Aros001

I got done watching Linkara's Atop the 4th wall review of Red Hood and the Outlaws (links below if you want to see it (no, there isn't a Youtube video of it))

Link on home channel

Link on blip.tv

And, after learning the history of how things went down, it seems that DC don't do a very good job expanding their fan base or pleasing the fans they already have during the New 52 relanch. And given all the talk about how bad the Teen Titans reboot was, DC's New 52 seems like it did more harm than good.

Yes, the New 52 brought new readers into comics, but it also made DC lose readers as well.

Don't get me wrong, there were good titles to come out of it, I've read some of them. But when you consider how many good titles that got canceled because of the relaunch, the exploitation of female superheroes (more than it was before), the dramatic changes to the characters and history (which no one seems to have been able to figure out yet what's continuity and what's not), and the transformations of some characters into complete assholes, DC really didn't start off on the right foot.

So I'm wondering, has the New 52 been doing better now than it did at the beginning or are they still pissing people off? This is an honest question that I'm hoping the New 52 readers and others will answer.

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MakkyD

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The overall quality of the lineup has improved, there's less bad titles than before.

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V_Scarlotte_Rose

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In terms of sales, they've been behind Marvel most months for a while now, if sales figures is part of what you're looking for:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145293/3927505-market+share+line.jpg

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Bierschneeman

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@aros001:

Atop the fourth wall is hilarious, I love it, but it's a deeply opinionated source (for some titles) anything that has to do with Teen Titans is a deep bias for him, despite the fact he made a list of good Teen Titans pre52 titles, and bad pre52 teen titan titles and there was nearly just as many bad titles he is taking a shot at the New52 strictly because its his newest nemesis and they ruined his favorite characters

The new52 teen titans book was god awful (cancelled) ill give him that, and although I deeply dislike red hood and the outlaws it has an extremely strong following, there are a ton of people who can't get enough of it. my major complaint with Linkara's comment on Starfire's sexuality in that review specifically. the first teen titan book I read was pre52, Starfire not only was a promiscuous slut, but thought nothing of sunbathing naked in front of people, even almost getting a voyeuristic kick out of it. Linkara mentions this comic either in this video or another. the second book I read she was still pretty slutty, I call this precedence for why she is so promiscuous in the New52.

that said

New52 had a rocky start with about 20 good titles. now they have many more than 20 good titles, and the awful titles that get cancelled, generally don't get replaced with another awful titles.

specifically

Batgirl by Gail Simone, Solid title, been amazing since issue one

Batman bt Snyder AMAZING TITLE this was the breakout hit of New52

Action Comics the first run was pretty damn awesome, had a rocky middle, but it has settled out to be a great title again with Greg Pak taking over

there's a lot of other but I have to dinner, if you'd like Ill go through the whole lot of New52 later (but off hand Swamp thing and Aquaman are really good)

Marvel Now IMHO has been underperforming compared to DC, while DC has been replacing bad titles with good titles in the New52. Marvel Now titles have been slowly been replaced (or gravitated towards) being bad titles.

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i_dont_like_comics

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it doesn't show signs of improving. lots of bad titles. very few good titles. i can't even name a good one. maybe jl united.

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V_Scarlotte_Rose

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Batwoman was great, but has recently declined after the change in writer. Justice League Dark started good, went a little downhill, and has come back up to good again. In my opinion anyway.

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Aros001

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@aros001:

Atop the fourth wall is hilarious, I love it, but it's a deeply opinionated source (for some titles) anything that has to do with Teen Titans is a deep bias for him, despite the fact he made a list of good Teen Titans pre52 titles, and bad pre52 teen titan titles and there was nearly just as many bad titles he is taking a shot at the New52 strictly because its his newest nemesis and they ruined his favorite characters

The new52 teen titans book was god awful (cancelled) ill give him that, and although I deeply dislike red hood and the outlaws it has an extremely strong following, there are a ton of people who can't get enough of it. my major complaint with Linkara's comment on Starfire's sexuality in that review specifically. the first teen titan book I read was pre52, Starfire not only was a promiscuous slut, but thought nothing of sunbathing naked in front of people, even almost getting a voyeuristic kick out of it. Linkara mentions this comic either in this video or another. the second book I read she was still pretty slutty, I call this precedence for why she is so promiscuous in the New52.

that said

New52 had a rocky start with about 20 good titles. now they have many more than 20 good titles, and the awful titles that get cancelled, generally don't get replaced with another awful titles.

specifically

Batgirl by Gail Simone, Solid title, been amazing since issue one

Batman bt Snyder AMAZING TITLE this was the breakout hit of New52

Action Comics the first run was pretty damn awesome, had a rocky middle, but it has settled out to be a great title again with Greg Pak taking over

there's a lot of other but I have to dinner, if you'd like Ill go through the whole lot of New52 later (but off hand Swamp thing and Aquaman are really good)

Marvel Now IMHO has been underperforming compared to DC, while DC has been replacing bad titles with good titles in the New52. Marvel Now titles have been slowly been replaced (or gravitated towards) being bad titles.

I believe you are thinking of his review of Titans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdfayeqqFnc

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the_stegman

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#8 the_stegman  Moderator

I like it for the most part, I think currently, DC doesn't put out any more bad/mediocre titles than Marvel. The only /real/ stinker that still exists is Catwoman.

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bloggerboy

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@aros001:

Atop the fourth wall is hilarious, I love it, but it's a deeply opinionated source (for some titles) anything that has to do with Teen Titans is a deep bias for him, despite the fact he made a list of good Teen Titans pre52 titles, and bad pre52 teen titan titles and there was nearly just as many bad titles he is taking a shot at the New52 strictly because its his newest nemesis and they ruined his favorite characters

The new52 teen titans book was god awful (cancelled) ill give him that, and although I deeply dislike red hood and the outlaws it has an extremely strong following, there are a ton of people who can't get enough of it. my major complaint with Linkara's comment on Starfire's sexuality in that review specifically. the first teen titan book I read was pre52, Starfire not only was a promiscuous slut, but thought nothing of sunbathing naked in front of people, even almost getting a voyeuristic kick out of it. Linkara mentions this comic either in this video or another. the second book I read she was still pretty slutty, I call this precedence for why she is so promiscuous in the New52.

Not sure if I understand why Linkara is biased? Because he's a fan of the TT? He's more informed on some of the reasons why the new title sucked in my opinion.

I think there's a difference between old and new Starfire. Old Starfire was naive and for the lack of a better word alien in her approach. The new Starfire is just vacant with no emotion, not getting joy out of anything. The old Starfire didn't know any better, the new one just doesn't care and is blander and duller for it.

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judasnixon

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Man I really wanted to like New 52, and I still want to like New 52...... People think I'm some Marvel fanboy, but I love DC characters. I'm just not wild about any DC books right now, except Wonder Woman..... Give me a good Teen Titan, Doom Patrol, Power Girl, or a Big Barda and Mister Miracle series with an awesome creative team, and I would buy the $#!% out of that......

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TimeLordScience

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judasnixon

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#12  Edited By judasnixon

@the_stegman: what books at Marvel are as bad as Catwoman?

That new X-Force was pretty bad..... Mind you I couldn't get pass issue #1......

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the_stegman

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#13 the_stegman  Moderator

@the_stegman: what books at Marvel are as bad as Catwoman?

Iron Man. I read the first two trades and that was a very, very difficult task.

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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A little bit better but still bad.

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TimeLordScience

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#15  Edited By TimeLordScience

@the_stegman: @judasnixon: fair enough, that's subjective, but fair enough.

I think this question is less subjective: is any book Marvel's put out in the last 2 years as bad as Liefeld and Lobdell's work in the New 52?

I like DC. But the New 52 has more problems than Marvel NOW and All-New Marvel NOW. That's my opinion of course, but that's the way I see it.

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Teerack

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I think the first year and half was pretty good, then most books started to take dives as DC moved the creative teams of a lot of their better books off the characters they don't care about and onto Batman/Superman stuff.

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the_stegman

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#17 the_stegman  Moderator

@timelordscience: Yeah, this is all my opinion of course. But, I actually think the first wave of New 52 was much better than the first wave of Marvel NOW, which, besides Thor, put out nothing but mediocre (and bad) titles. It wasn't until the later waves (including the current one) that Marvel found its stride. But I agree, not many can top the just plain horrible Teen Titans run that Lobell had...jeez.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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it doesn't show signs of improving. lots of bad titles. very few good titles. i can't even name a good one. maybe jl united.

Aquaman, Batman, Batgirl, Shazam, Constantine, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Harley Quinn, JLU Dark, Green Arrow (Jeff Lemire).

Really all these people complain there is nothing good from the New 52, yet there are all these good titles. Some people need to let go of the past.

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force_echo

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#19  Edited By force_echo
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TimeLordScience

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#20  Edited By TimeLordScience

@the_stegman: I think I do agree that All-New Marvel Now is better than vanilla Marvel NOW. However, I still disagree that Marvel NOW was any kind of failure, especially when compared to the New 52 at the start. First of all, Marvel has still not rebooted. I love that. But besides that, you got Uncanny/New/Secret/Young Avengers, Deadpool, FF, Thor: God of Thunder, X-Men Legacy, Superior Foes of Spider-Man. There's also the series that began before NOW that didn't get canned, like Daredevil, Captain Marvel, Venom, Scarlet Spider, Hawkeye. These titles basically got incorporated into NOW.

With the start of the New 52 what did you have? Wonder Woman, Batman, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, I, Vampire, Demon Knights, Batman and Robin, Batwoman, Green Lantern, Action Comics, Aquaman, All Star Western. At the start at the New 52 you had tons of crap titles: Detective by Daniel, Liefeld's stuff, Lobdell's TT, Static Shock, Green Arrow, Superman, Hawkman, Mister Terrific, Red Lanterns, Catwoman, The Dark Knight, Birds of Prey, Superboy, Suicide Squad. These are titles most reviewers and fans consider outright bad, not even mediocre.Take the percentage of good books versus books put out. There ought not be more books that reviewers/fans consider outright bad than good ones.

That's my perspective upon looking through the launch titles just now.

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i_dont_like_comics

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@i_dont_like_comics said:

it doesn't show signs of improving. lots of bad titles. very few good titles. i can't even name a good one. maybe jl united.

Aquaman (extremely boring), Batman (boring and a lot of PIS), Batgirl (ugh), Shazam (he doesn't have a book), Constantine (PG13 version), Swamp Thing (meh), Animal Man (meh), Harley Quinn (garbage of the highest quality), JLU Dark (decent), Green Arrow (don't care, the start killed any interest in the character)(Jeff Lemire).

Really all these people complain there is nothing good from the New 52, yet there are all these good titles. Some people need to let go of the past.

some people need to have better taste. see? i can make false statements too.

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TimeLordScience

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@mr_clockwork91: Constantine is not exactly universally loved. It's especially bad when compared to Hellblazer. Also, to my knowledge, there is no Shazam title. JL Dark has had a lot of rough patches (Forever Evil: Blight was almost universally reviled). Lemire's Green Arrow is no more.

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the_stegman

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#23 the_stegman  Moderator

@the_stegman: I think I do agree that All-New Marvel Now is better than vanilla Marvel NOW. However, I still disagree that Marvel NOW was any kind of failure, especially when compared to the New 52 at the start. First of all, Marvel has still not rebooted. I love that. But besides that, you got Uncanny/New/Secret Avengers, Deadpool, FF, Thor: God of Thunder, X-Men Legacy, Superior Foes of Spider-Man. There's also the series that began before NOW that didn't get canned, like Daredevil, Captain Marvel, Venom, Scarlet Spider, Hawkeye. These titles basically got incorporated into NOW.

With the start of the New 52 what did you have? Wonder Woman, Batman, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, I, Vampire, Demon Knights, Batman and Robin, Batwoman, Green Lantern, Action Comics, Aquaman, All Star Western. At the start at the New 52 you had tons of crap titles: Detective by Daniel, Liefeld's stuff, Lobdell's TT, Static Shock, Green Arrow, Superman, Hawkman, Mister Terrific, Red Lanterns, Catwoman, The Dark Knight, Birds of Prey, Superboy, Suicide Squad. These are titles most reviewers and fans consider outright bad, not even mediocre.Take the percentage of good books versus books put out. There ought not be more books that reviewers/fans consider outright bad than good ones.

That's my perspective upon looking through the launch titles just now.

I actually didn't like any of those titles listed for Marvel. New Avengers being the exception, I found Secret Avengers, Uncanny Avengers and regular Avengers not interesting at all, I never liked DP, so that's just me, and FF was dull. Superior foes came out in the second wave and I don't count titles that existed before Marvel Now as Marvel Now titles.

Yes, be got bad titles in New 52, but the good to me outnumbered the bad. Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, all GL titles except Red Lanterns, Action Comics the entire Dark line up, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, were all top notch to me.

I feel like DC actually rebooting is what gets people's jimmies rustled, Marvel saw this and although they were in an equally bad spot, learned from it, instead of rebooting, the relaunched, which is why I think they don't get nearly as much criticism. But quality wise, both have stinkers and both have gems.

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Guru_Crack

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#24  Edited By Guru_Crack

@timelordscience: Why does everyone hate the New 52 Catwoman? I have read like 8 or 9 Marvel Now titles and none has been as good as Catwoman IMO.

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RustyRoy

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Man I really wanted to like New 52, and I still want to like New 52...... People think I'm some Marvel fanboy, but I love DC characters. I'm just not wild about any DC books right now, except Wonder Woman..... Give me a good Teen Titan, Doom Patrol, Power Girl, or a Big Barda and Mister Miracle series with an awesome creative team, and I would buy the $#!% out of that......

Heard the new TT issue was good.

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Bierschneeman

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#26  Edited By Bierschneeman

@bloggerboy said:

Not sure if I understand why Linkara is biased? Because he's a fan of the TT? He's more informed on some of the reasons why the new title sucked in my opinion.

I think there's a difference between old and new Starfire. Old Starfire was naive and for the lack of a better word alien in her approach. The new Starfire is just vacant with no emotion, not getting joy out of anything. The old Starfire didn't know any better, the new one just doesn't care and is blander and duller for it.

ohh yes I agree that he is more informed when it comes to the reasons TT New52 is awful. BUT in some of his reviews of older TT comics he blindly looks the other way at problems they share with other bad comics he was nitpicking if he is a fan of the comic. so its not okay for other comics, but if its a teen titan book he enjoys we can just look passed it...? I only noticed this because I marathoned every video he made a month ago which means when I saw him harp on one comics flaws, and then praise another comic despite having these same flaws that he doesn't even mention specifically, it was all still fresh in my mind. though the problem is it also kinds of runs together a little looking back now, so I couldn't begin to think of which reviews they were. (side note, I marathoned them because I hadn't seen like 90% of them, I was relatively new to watching his videos and wanted to catch up)

while I agree with you on his opinion of New52 TT title, its Red Hood and the Outlaws that he gets his bias on. I mentioned I deeply disliked the title, yeah, I can't stand it, not because I think its bad, but because the subject matter is unappealing, and the three main characters I really couldn't care less for. BUT you can't argue with the fact that there is a MASSIVE fanbase for this title, they come out of the woodwork in defense of it.

I will also agree that with the majority of pre52 comics the change to New52 in Starfire is apparent, this is kind of the point though. with the New52 every character is getting huge changes to fit the new mold. some are outright reworked completely others recieve minor changes that make larger impacts on the character (like Green Lantern...huge tonal changes to the title, but worked in with just a few dozen minor changes) expecting Starfire to be precisely like she was is the wrong attitude to have here, this will be like disliking Batman Begins because Joker didn;t kill the waynes like in the 89 movie, (or the changes that were different from the comic) But the personna they used for the New52 Starfire is pulled directly from the Pre52, Titans one is an example of where they got their ideas for New52 Starfire. there was also a lot of flakk she had gotten over the years Pre52 for a lot of the same things, mostly along the lines of he being so sexually active AND a space cat. this led people to conclude she was a sex kitten...this is also a pre52 complaint, that carries over now, but a lot of people are assuming this is new. Some of her personality "problems" were misinterpreted (according for Lobdell in an interview on CV during month two of the New52 relaunch) and would work themselves out in later issues when as Lobdell puts it, people who were jumping to conclusions as to her personality will rethink their position, and possibly regret. the only personality trait that was never resolved that Linkara mentions in the review, and you mentioned as well. was the emotion void she embodied. here is Lobdell's words on it.

"For the past 40 years, Mr. Spock from Star Trek was an emotionally "deficient" alien who probably taught us more about human emotion than a lot of other characters in science fiction. Similarly, I think there is a lot for Kori to reveal to us about the nature of memory than we might initially perceive from the first issue."

he also mentions other aliens like Superman and Martian Manhunter who can easily blend in with humanity, while as Kori is always stuck as an alien, treated like an outsider her whole life with no chance to try and blend in and interact with humanity. he states this off panel history (25 year??!! what!! that has to be a typo) of solitude in a crowd is responsible for a lot of her personality traits in the New52.

becuase I don't hate the Teen Titans and I don;t love them, but rather I just don't care one way or another, I like to think it makes me a great person to look at them objectively, but no one can be completely unbiased. but either way.

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Bierschneeman

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@aros001 said:

@bierschneeman said:

@aros001:

New52 had a rocky start with about 20 good titles. now they have many more than 20 good titles, and the awful titles that get cancelled, generally don't get replaced with another awful titles.

specifically

Batgirl by Gail Simone, Solid title, been amazing since issue one

Batman bt Snyder AMAZING TITLE this was the breakout hit of New52

Action Comics the first run was pretty damn awesome, had a rocky middle, but it has settled out to be a great title again with Greg Pak taking over

there's a lot of other but I have to dinner, if you'd like Ill go through the whole lot of New52 later (but off hand Swamp thing and Aquaman are really good)

Marvel Now IMHO has been underperforming compared to DC, while DC has been replacing bad titles with good titles in the New52. Marvel Now titles have been slowly been replaced (or gravitated towards) being bad titles.

I believe you are thinking of his review of Titans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdfayeqqFnc

yea thats it, I was wondering why the first issue was called the new teen titans, and the second Titans. I am really happy Linkara cleared that up for me. ohh I didn't really like the book either.

back to the other

Swamp thing continues to be great, some people prefer the first run, some people prefer Soule's. also Soule is doing great things with Red Lanterns (which is improved since Peter Milligan) and Superman/WOnderWoman. Geoff Johns Justice League Green lantern and now Superman are all great, though admittedly after nine years of writing Green Lantern it does show that he is beginning to be bored, and it shows on his quality, though all this is better than Green Lantern right before the relaunch; Brightest Day was okay. Wonder WOman is great

Bedard took a bad title (supergirl) and made it good. earth 2, great, Green arrow, fantastic...after issue 17 when Lemire took over) aNIMal man was great, wasn't prematurely cancelled either. jlu I hear is good but I need to start cutting down my pull list, not adding to it. gosh theres so much more.

really most of the New52 is prettty good these days. the two worst titles just received relaunches (Teen Titans, Suicide Squad) time will tell how good they will be, but they at least look better than they were before.

I have an issue though, there are more New52 titles I want on my pull list than I have room for, this is in stark change from Pre52, where there I was down to only two, and Marvel dominated . but as time wore on, Marvel kept cancelling good titles for ones that sucked, or were mediocre. or like deadpool completely shifting the direction. this run reminds me of Bendis' awful Moon Knight run, rather than Daniel's glorious Deadpool run..

everyone has opinions, but mine is that this former Marvel Fanboy, is watching Marvel mediocre themselves, while the New52 keeps catching on, and is (slowly...very slowly) replacing Bad titles with better ones... (exceptions, of course...like Demon Knights)

OOps heres a rant....i'll leave it though. forewarned

I don't like to mention Batwoman though, they weren't fired, or replaced. they quit. thats not a decided change, thats DC holding onto a well selling title despite the fact they were left holding the bag. was DC's decision to prevent a lesbian marriage (the tipping point) a wrong one. potentially, they could have had a non-prejudiced plot reason that they couldn't reveal. just doesn't look good on a newsfeed though. I do agree that once they made their decision and their creators threatened to quit they were right to hold their ground (if you disregard the marriage thing and just look at it from a employer=employee perspective. Clerk at Mcdonalds is hailed for fantasitc burgers that are higher quality than the standard. this clerk decides to up the bar and start using cheddar cheese instead of American. He of course is denied by corporate because its not the way they want to do things. he threatens to quit, and they hold their ground, losing a highly regarded clerk who brought in good sales. adding cheddar would have been good, but it doesn't fit the corporate model. Batwoman is not the product of the creators but a corporate owned entity who wants to do things their way. we can argue that giving creators more control is best, and will produce better products. but really this opens the door for more potential disasters than before (like Young Bloods, or George Lucas' Phantom Mencace, which when he had very little control at all and was told NO a lot (A New Hope and Empire strikes back) the movies were MUCH better.))

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V_Scarlotte_Rose

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Superguy1591

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It has gotten better. DC is fixing all the flaws in the original start.

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i_dont_like_comics

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@guru_crack: if you like the catwoman book, you MUST LOVE the toilet paper aisle.

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primebonnick

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PLz DC is smiling happily i'm just miffed that demon knights didn't get another go was such an awesome series that ended too soon.

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Manwhohaseverything

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By and large, the New 52 has been a success. It has its' flaws, but it has gotten more folks into comics. Granted the excitement/buzz from when it first came out has died down. That was inevitable. Now, some folks think if it was good for DC, then it must be bad for Marvel, but it didn't hurt Marvel at all. As for the quality. To me, it's a push. Pre-52 had some good and some bad titles. New 52, same thing.

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@i_dont_like_comics: That would be your opinion on the book and you shouldn't push your opinions on others and thats all it is.

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It's improving. Steadily, but improving. You've got regular titles holding a pretty consistent quality, and new books popping up that are surprisingly good.

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i_dont_like_comics

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@guru_crack: oh, i'm sorry. were you not complaining about people not liking catwoman? about it being better than any other marvel book, aka 'your opinions are wrong and mine is right'. people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, buddy. sometimes the general consensus is right.

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Guru_Crack

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@i_dont_like_comics: If you notice I did say in my opinion. I also didn't aim my comment at anyone in particular. Just generally chatting about comics in general. Not everyone has the same tastes as you know but sometimes I do worry when people can't get into a book like Catwoman. Got to be honest didn't even rate Catwoman at all until I read the New 52 books.

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i_dont_like_comics

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@guru_crack: i'm guessing you mean read. if so, then you don't know who the character is and that is just sad.

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Guru_Crack

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@i_dont_like_comics: Not really people just have different starting points. I can't be upset about them ruining her character if to me she didn't have a character to ruin so I went into the New 52 with a open mind. I have bought some of the older books which Catwoman appears in but nothing to get a feel for her. Perhaps if I went back and read about her i'd understand but never found her remotely interesting before.

But since I was exposed to the New 52 Catwoman before I probably wouldn't like how she was portrayed before.

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SupBatz

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Still not a fan.

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laidblack

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Considering it's my jumping point on to DC comics, and I kinda refuse to read the pre-52, its been pretty good. The beginnings were a bit abrasive, but after a while it's begun to shape up. I still prefer Marvel overall, but it's good.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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TimeLordScience

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#42  Edited By TimeLordScience

@mr_clockwork91: That doesn't count. We were talking about ongoings, not minis. And the Shazam backup in Justice League is controversial as it is, because it falls in line with the New 52's habit of taking things that were generally fun and making them grimdark.

@the_stegman:

I actually didn't like any of those titles listed for Marvel. New Avengers being the exception, I found Secret Avengers, Uncanny Avengers and regular Avengers not interesting at all, I never liked DP, so that's just me, and FF was dull. Superior foes came out in the second wave and I don't count titles that existed before Marvel Now as Marvel Now titles.

That's just how you feel based upon your predisposed interests, which has no bearing on quality. I think my DC selections were a lot less based upon my personally preferences (I personally did not care too much for Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and Aquaman, but I acknowledge they're good books). And I assure you, you're in the minority. Your calling FF dull is just mindboggling to me, it's an opinion so strange that it borders on wrong. Unless you thought I meant Fantastic Four and not Future Foundation.

Also, whether you personally count them or not, Daredevil, Captain Marvel, etc got Marvel NOW logos on the covers when the initiative started, meaning that Marvel counts them. Yeah, they didn't get renumbered, but that was just because Marvel NOW never intended to do a line-wide relaunch like DC, they just wanted to shuffle creative teams and get an excuse to renumber a bunch of sh!t, but not things where the team wasn't changing.

And as for DC's good titles "outnumbering" the bad, I disagree, to such an extant that to me the statement seems like a statistical false-hood. Look at my list. There are more titles that a vast majority considered outright bad than those considered good. That's not even taking into account mediocre ones, like Stormwatch. Maybe you meant to say the good titles "outweighed" the bad, but that's a different matter. A much more subjective and impossible to quantify matter.

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RetconCrisis

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I don't find it catching up to the Pre 52, but it's gotten better and almost all of the series are okay level or above.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@timelordscience: Oh I'm sorry, I did not know we were talking about ongoings. No where did it say in the OP that it was strictly ongoings but 52 as a whole.

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TimeLordScience

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I'm also going to make a few more general comments: to me, calling the New 52 a success makes you have extremely low standards for success. Many of the New 52's launch titles were bad. Many of the New 52's launch titles that were good have either ended or been canned (Demon Knights, I, Vampire, Animal Man, All-Star Western). Some titles that were good have even become mediocre, like Batwoman and soon to be Green Arrow.

This point leads to another: for people saying that it's improving, I disagree very strongly. First of all, they've alienated some good talent with their horrible business and editorial practices: J.H. Williams III, James Robinson, Joshua Hale Fialkov, among others.

Look at DC's output of new titles recently: mostly everything revolves around Batman. Granted, some of the stuff looks very promising, but DC is still using Batman as a crutch. That is not a sign of success. You can sure as hell bet that Batman will be making a heavy amount of appearances in Deathstroke, because Deathstroke's recent popularity is due to Batman, and especially with Daniel writing and drawing it. . Speaking of which, why the hell are they still allowing Daniel to write?

Where are the New Gods, Cyborg, Shazam, and Martian Manhunter books fans have been clamoring for? Where's a Young Justice title? Why is Teen Titans still mediocre? Why is Suicide Squad still mediocre? Why are all their top talent on Batman and Superman books? Why is Green Lantern still in a crossover hell that makes it impossible to access? Why was Wally West's character destroyed, and why was The Flash put in the hands of writers that don't give a sh!t about Flash?

There's so many things to be frustrated about, and it makes Marvel's many mistakes pale by comparison.

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TimeLordScience

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@mr_clockwork91: True, that was what the OP said, but you weren't replying to the OP when you brought up Shazam. You were replying to a user that was criticizing the titles DC was/is putting out. Shazam is not a title DC was/is putting out. It was a backup in a title.

Either way, it's semantics. The point is Shazam only appears in Justice League, and imo should not be listed among characters that have their own ongoings and appearances outside of Justice League.

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Comicdude360

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I really don't like how it's going.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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#48  Edited By Mr_Clockwork91

@timelordscience: I see your point.

And can you blame DC for pushing Batman when people constantly buy Batman? Yes I would like to see those other characters you mentioned and would be nice for DC to take a step in a new direction.

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TimeLordScience

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#49  Edited By TimeLordScience

@mr_clockwork91: I can actually. DC doesn't market their lesser known titles well. Let's look at a few very recent examples which have driven me crazy. DC has gotten into the (very good) habit of putting previews for titles they are about to launch in the back of every book they put out. The idea is good. The execution is horrid. Why? They put books like Batman Eternal and Superman by Johns in the back! Those books don't need marketing! Those titles aren't in any danger of failing to catch on! But books like The Movement, to my knowledge, never got put in the back of DC titles. And you can correct me if I'm wrong about that point.

On the other hand, look at what Marvel has done with Ms. Marvel.

EDIT: DC also seems to never put their top talent on books that feature characters that aren't well known. Case in point: Johns gets off Aquaman and onto Superman. Lemire gets off Animal Man, Green Arrow, and onto a Justice League title. Snyder leaves Swamp Thing (thankfully Soule actually stepped up to plate and delivered with that), and gets on Superman.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@timelordscience: They push their lesser known characters well in the DCU, thats how I got into The Question.