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Posted by cyborgx (151 posts) - - Show Bio

The question of how fast DBZ guys really is a matter for huge debate, and since most people i find on Comicvine tends to underrate DBZ characters(this was something i had to do).Now there is no stats that we can read like in Marvel and DC but still there are ways to tell using certain methods,first i quote: Goku after his training with King Kai traveled for 27-28 hours (Edit: It was less then 2 days, probably 27 or 28h) from one end of Snake way to the other. Snake way was 1 000 000 km long which means, Goku at PL 5000 can fly around mach 30.[Just as a side point to estimate how fast Vegeta "might" be-if Goku with a 5000 PL can fly at Mach 30 I will say Vegeta with a PL 18,000 in the Saiyan saga might be Mach 66=50,237 Mph.if we fast forward to the Frieza saga when Vegeta is fighting Freiza on Namak his PL was 500,000 tops.500,000- is roughly 28 X 18,000, so 50,000 X 28=1,400,000 Mph now lets add his SSJ multipliers:SSJ1=70,000,000 Mph\ SSJ2=3,500,000,000.So I guess roughly that Vegeta can travel over 3 Billion Mph;the speed of light is 670 million Mph; so Vegeta can easily exceed the speed of light.]

After that he powered up from 5000 to over 8000, and used KKx3, therefore he should be faster then mach 68 (30+30x3=120)

after his training under 100G he was obviously much faster in his base form then he was while using KKx3 during saiyan saga, so he should be faster then mach 120 without KK, and with KKx20 he should be more then 2520 x faster then sound, much more. "(68+68x20=1428).................................For example Buu is in same speed category as SSJ3, and he destroyed several hundreds of planets in few years, and most likely he was aiming only for a life containing planets.

Planets are revolving around stars, usually no more then 10 planets around one star, and stars are light years distant from each other (closest star to our sun is 4.3 light years away)

So he would have to go FTL to achieve this feat.

This feat would be in any other comic excepted as light speed, or very close to light speed. He circled earth 5 times in only one panel, and in 99.9% times 1 panel represents 1 moment, 1 second, or possibly few second.

(Light circles earths equator 7.48 times in one second, Gotenks did 5 circles, but much bigger then equator). Gotenks was only full powered SSJ here.

Some of you like to say that he was flying for 29 minutes, because he separated when he came to Buu. But even this was explained on the next page where he said how he took a nap while he was waiting for Piccolo.

Second argument is that it took him almost 1 minute to get to Buu, but Piccolo said that 1 minute just approximately, since he didn’t have a watch. Besides it is not like he must fly at his full speed all the time.

but my main argument is that Radditz the the weekes of all DBZ villain was able to move faster then a bullet-and was able to catch it, now rifle bullet's can travel any where between 850-3,300 MPH and up to 4,000 fps(feet per second) Goku and Vegeta doing the time of the cell sega had to be at least 1,000 x faster then Radditz which means 3,300 x 1,000=3,300,000(3 million 3 hundred thousand) and by the buu sega SSJ3 Goku had to be 1,000,000 x faster then Raditz. so 3,300 x 1,000,000=3,300,000,000, the speed of light is 186,000 MPS or 671,000,000 MPH (so assuming he's 1 million x faster then Radditz) he can travel over 3 billion MPH even if he's just 100,000 times faster then he can move at 330,000,000 million MPH so either way he's pretty freaking fast.(Raditz had a power level of 1200 and he was achieving these feats). Also Vegeta could have destroyed the Earth with his Galick Gun the first time he appeared. He stated that this was his intent. He had a power level of 18,000. Super Saiyan 3 Goku had to hold his power back to simply keep from destroying Earth. Cell stated his final Kamehameha could easily destroy their entire solar system. By the end of DBZ, everyone, and most of all Goku, could have easily destroyed any planet, if not entire solar systems and galaxy's without much effort what so ever.so even if Goku can't travel the the speed of light he's pretty close + he can IT which is in essence=lightspeed and i quote from HAXJAX "If someone says Goku isnt 10x faster by the time he got to namek, I would like to point out that he could easily do 10x Kaioken when he got to namek. So if goku could turn ssj3 when he got to namek he would be 50x50x50 = 125000x faster then light. You can just Imagine how fast he would be when he is fighting frezia or even cell".One more "good" fact to mention is in Dragon Ball Z the "beams" they use travels at\or neer the speed of light, for Goku,Vegeta and Gohan to reflect these beams it can only mean they can react at the speed of light.And even if you debate that they (beams\ki) don't travel that fast my proof is this: (mind you in the very early sega of DBZ even before the arrival of Vegeta and Nappa) Piccolo shot an energy beam at the moon- 1 second later-it destroy the moon, which means= light-speed. Master Roshi have also accomplish this feet.Even when Goku was a kid he was dodging lighting which travels at 1,500,000 MPH if he can achieve this feet as a kid just imagine as a SSJ3?!!? now lets see super saiyan is 50 times stronger then a persons(Saiyan base form) base form, it's debatable but a SSJ2 is like 100 X base form . notice the list below:

Great Ape = base X 10

False Super Saiyan = base X 21

Super Saiyan = base X 50

Ascended Saiyan = base X 60

Ultra Super Saiyan = base X 62

Super Saiyan 2 = = base X 100

Super Saiyan 3 = = base X 400

Golden Great Ape = base X 500

now if these numbers are somewhat correct .Goku as a SSJ3 would be 400 X stronger then base from Goku.........so lets do the math..going back to Kid Goku dodging lighting:1,500,000 X 400=600,000,000 MPH! remember the speed of light travels at 671,000,000 MPH(671 million MPH) so he's almost there! eveen if you don't belive he''s 400 X faster even if hes' only 200 X faster he would still move at 300,000,000 MPH...so either way he's still close...........i hope more people will see the true speed of the Dragon Ball Z Universe! My next blog will deal with powerlevles and strength...Notice beloew...

"So most DBZ fans are upset(including me) about the speed Goku was given in the Death Battle(WHICH WAS VERY WRONG) between him and Superman. We're upset that the Snake Way calculation was used when GT Goku has to be so much faster than that + Toriyama himself said that Snake Way is not drawn to scale nor is it accurately replicated to judge Goku's Speed;There are also far better ways to judge Goku's Speed. Wiz and Boomstick used a multiplier to take his training and increases into account-though this was flawed I'm multiplying any feat Goku has accomplished by 1,000,000,000 to account for his power level increase throughout the series. And then adding Super Saiyan multipliers onto that. So here we go...

Goku crossed the curvy Snake Way by flying in a straight line directly over it. Wiz and Boomstick astonished me with their calculation of how far he actually went, taking into account the curves that would take Snake Way's length down substantially. And since they calculated it to actually be 190,761 miles long, I'm going to use his speed of 6,800 mph to get across it in 28 hours.

Now, let's multiply that by a billion for power level increase and then add the Super Saiyan multipliers. Goku's speed is actually...

6,800,000,000,000 mph (6.8 trillion mph) at base(That's using Snake Way calculations)

6.8 trillion x 50 x 2 x 4 x 10 = 2,720,000,000,000,000 (2.72 quadrillion mph) in Super Saiyan 4

That translates to 4,055,968 (so Goku is 4 Million times faster then the speed of light..in base!)times faster than the speed of light. Obviously much faster with the 1 billion times increase we're giving to him before his Super Saiyan multipliers".

Here's more evidence(presented by BlueComet): He say's "The easiest way to tell Goku's speed is by looking at his Namek speed feat.

He flew half way around Namek in a second. Since Namek is the same size as the earth(24,859.82 miles around) that means he flew at about 44,747,676 mph in base form.

Base: 44,747,676 mph

SSJ: 2,237,383,800 mph

SSJ2: 4,474,767,600 mph

SSJ3: 17,899,070,400 mph

SSJ4: 178,990,704,000 mph

Each of his super saiyan forms are well over lightspeed. SSJ is 3.3x lightspeed, SSJ2 is 6.6x lightspeed, SSJ3 is 26.4x lightspeed, and SSJ4 is 264x lightspeed. If what ArticulateT said is true that means Goku(in his highest ssj form) is just barely faster than Superman." It isn't hard to realize that Goku is massively FTL, but with all the dbz haters who try and underrate the the show and all the fanboys who completely blow feats out of proportion, it's hard to tell how powerful Goku actually is. I think I did a pretty good job here though".Yes you did..so there you have all the proof you need to show Goku is easily faster then the speed of light..What more is needed? you ask for facts and now you have them!.I rest my case-once and for all.

Also Notice:

Goku catching a Dragonball(which should move at least the Speed of light)

Goku out running a Solar Flare

Goku becoming Faster than Lighting

Goku training for 3 years with Kami and all the other specifically unquantifiable training speed increases

DeathBattle said Goku was 2.5billion km/hr AT SS4 ...

THEY ARE WRONG.

GOKU SHOULD BE MINIMALLY 183 billion km/hr(that is around 113,710,928,179 Billion Mph) much much much faster then Light) in SS4 because he can cross Earth's diameter in one second in the Freiza Saga.Yet this is never mention in the DeathBattle.

#1 Edited by ArticulateT (189 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd like to add my own theory, in that Dragon Ball Z is not faster than the speed of light. Better yet, I'd like to point out a series that is much faster than DBZ.

To begin, I'd like to say that judging speed, strength and durability for DBZ is basically as problematic as most other media, in the sense that it is highly inconsistent with itself. The style of writing is very confusing, and how certain aspects of a plot are kind of nerfed in comparison to earlier stages.

An example is that Frieza, having been bifurcated and blasted, survives the destruction of Namek long enough for his father to find him and give him cybernetic boosts. However, during the Cell Games, King Kai and Goku perish to a planet busting self-destruct. Shortly after this, Android 16 attempts to use Self Destruct on Cell, the device being far from capable of destroying a planet, but Cell being notably scared of the attempt, only being saved by said device being removed prior to the fight.

Of course, this is about speed, and, well, DBZ is far from 125000 time the speed of light.

It's been stated that while Goku was fighting Cell at full power during the Cell games, the two of them were battling near the speed of light in the original manga. In the anime, they were fighting at a speed where untrained humans could perceive them.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/The_Highest_Level

In that same sense, we can also prove that it's actually difficult for them to see individuals moving at such a speed, but also for them to see at such a speed full stop:

The one thing that bothers me though, is that such speed is essentially the fastest I've seen any DBZ character move. IT is actual teleportation, so it doesn't really count as a show of Super Speed.

Here, in this same encounter, Goku runs headlong into Mr. Popo's fist, since he can't see Mr. Popo as he's moving, at least not clearly.

So, the Ki sense permits them to see their enemies while at high speed.

man, Mr. Popo is such a troll...

However, it does make me think. One thing people claim is that Dragon Ball, and Dragon ball Z fights are within dilated time. The fact that the fighters appear, strike, then disappear again is so the viewer can enjoy the action. The above image, though, made me wonder: If these guys can't see while moving at high speed, and and only see through Ki, would that mean that they stop, so they can have clear sight on their target? I mean, it's all well and good to say that the fighters can perform at such velocity, and that they would be able to simply see with nothing but Ki, but in high combat areas, it makes it difficult to concentrate, meaning that the Ki Image, as it were, would be less defined. Taking that into account, the fighter might believe that they wouldn't be able to see their enemy through Ki clearly, and thus, wouldn't know if they caught the target by surprise or if the target was preparing a counter.

Anyway. One thing did in fact get me thinking was the Kamehameha thing. I remember there being an argument that the Kamehameha was ridiculously fast, simply because it could reach the Earth's surface to the moon in such a short amount of time.

Well, if that was the case, why is it that the move got slower in the Cell Games?

In the images above, it barely clears the atmosphere in the same amount of time it takes for the previous attacks to get to the moon. The anime, it seems even slower.

These are the kinds of inconsistencies I was mentioning before. In comparisson to the speed they were going at before, it just seems... sluggish.

One final note before I let more experienced Dragon Ball fans tear this message apart.

Remember this move?:

It's called the One Pattern Technique, or the Afterimage technique. There are a variety of... variations of the move, but the descriptor is the same: to move fast enough to leave an image behind. It's a specific technique, and I can argue about specialisation rather than inherent speed, but, I'll do that another time.

Still, makes me think. Where have I seen this before...

Oh yeah. It seems Double Team from Pokemon has the same descriptor: to move so fast that there are multiple images of the Pokemon. The cool thing is that this speed is fast enough in some cases to allow the cloned images to move seemingly independently, and a lot of the time, the clones aren't in a circle or line. Does this mean Pokemon is as fast, or even faster than DBZ? Who knows. I know many would say no, but the evidence is there folks. Oh, and uh, I'm pretty sure a Machamp can punch faster than a Z fighter, since it's pokedex entry states: It punches with its four arms at blinding speed. It can launch 1,000 punches in two seconds. That's about 500 punches a second, meaning that's 125 punches per second per arm. Pretty snazzy.

Oh, to quickly go back, there is a move that allows for clones in DBZ, but that's not down to speed, but Ki manipulation. The clones have a physical property, sharing a portion of the user's Ki adding a risk vs reward element.

Make of all this what you will, I'm just saying that, the way I see it, Dragon Ball doesn't seem as grand as some might say.

#2 Posted by cyborgx (151 posts) - - Show Bio

yes there are inconsistencies as you pointed out, however for the facts i have already stated above proves they do move at\or close to lightspeed..one thing is for sure they do move faster then lighting speed, meaning they can easily travel over millions of MPH, it's something "Superman fan boys"will have to accept.

#3 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4521 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyborgx: Agreed! Well explained !

#4 Edited by ArticulateT (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyborgx: Superman recently clocked a speed of 260 times the speed of light, which is 174096000000 Miles Per Hour (travelling from Pluto to Earth in the period of a single minute during Red Hood and the Outlaws). Given that if speed increases per saga, with the Cell Saga showing that speed and power level aren't on a 1:1 ratio. Going by the flight speed of Gotenks during the Buu Saga (the final, canon saga in the Manga) we see he circles the earth 6 times within, at most, a minute.

So, 24,859 by 6 is 149158.92 per minute. We know Gotenks to basically be, power-wise, on par with Goku, with both of them having reached Super Saiyan 3. Given the power difference between SSJ 1 and 3, I'm going to double it, just to be generous, giving us 298317.84 MPM, and times it by 60 to get 17899070.4 MPH. This is about 18 million miles an hour. If we divide the prior score by 60, we get Miles per Second, which is 4971.964 MPS. This is far from the speed of light, and ludicrously far from what Superman is capable of. This is, surprisingly, a major increase from the Saiyan Saga, where Goku had clocked in a top recorded flight speed of 6.2 Miles Per Second. I would like to say that I'm prepared to go into another Supes vs Goku thing, but I seriously can't be bothered. Personally, when it comes down to it, I believe that Goku lacks anything other than the Power Pole that can harm Superman, and Superman, when fighting full tilt and fighting smart, there's rarely anything Superman can't plow through. I'll just leave it at that.

#5 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7535 posts) - - Show Bio

Who knows. I don't think Akira Toriyama was a mathematician. He just went with it.

#6 Posted by Ben836 (42 posts) - - Show Bio

http://www.screwattack.com/news/final-analysis-superman-and-goku-w-power-levels#comment-1414571 According to this Goku should be massively FTL. Not sure about anyone else though.

#7 Posted by cyborgx (151 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ben836: well yeah I agree..the only reason i went through all this trouble is because most people on comicvine underrate DBZ characters alot

#8 Edited by IvRanger (7 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Gotenks Flew 8 times around earth second.

2. Goku never had to use Speed of light to fly anywhere for the most, second he moves FTL, Third SSJ3 Goku>>SSJ3 Gotenks i won't start bothering explaining but if you watch whole buu saga then you would understand why im stating that.

And last i won't start stating anything against Superman but when flew in earth you could clearly see he never flew FTL only when he is in outer space, that might be the same for Goku even you never saw him doing that.

Just saying anyways. He got IT to travel around, that is even more handy.

#9 Posted by cyborgx (151 posts) - - Show Bio

@IvRanger: Well yeah his IT more then makes up..it's just that some people were saying that Goku is not fast "enough" to hang with Superman,I did this to show even without IT he still will be able to keep up with Superman

#10 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyborgx: Threads you might want to check:

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-balls/18-46445/combat-speed-of-dragon-ball-characters/92-649740/

http://www.comicvine.com/goku/29-19765/why-do-people-say-goku-cant-fight-fast-in-battle-debates/92-694441/?

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/proof-that-dbz-characters-above-ssj2-are-ftl/695774/

@ArticulateT: What makes you think Cell's self-destruct was the minimum for planet-busting? It could have easily been significantly higher. Probably should have been, given how much more powerful than Freeza he is, even in semi-perfect form.

Not sure why you brought up Pokemon, but if there are valed feats to give them immense speed, then I don't see any reason to dismiss it just because they are from a silly cartoon. From what I know of it, there's no reason they couldn't be super-powerful anyway; my understanding was that a pokemon was actually the creator of their universe, and there are others that are basically the gods of space and time, as well as the ground, skies, and oceans. Not sure what their actual feats are, but they certainly sound like they are supposed to be very powerful.

#11 Posted by ArticulateT (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11:

I assumed that Semi-Perfect Cell's self-destruct was smaller than Solar System busting since it appeared that all that was lost to the explosion was a chunk of Snake Way and King Kai's planet. If it were any larger, King Yama and a large chunk of Hell would be gone too. King Kai and Goku, who were meant to be far beyond Frieza by this point (the Kais, after all, were supposed to be able to one-shot Frieza), perished in that same explosion.

Really, my post was pointing out a few inconsistencies with the Dragon Ball storyline, how in the manga, there are plenty of parts where they are moving and fighting at 'full power', but they barely seem to have improved from previous exploits, and in some cases, seem weaker.

My example with Frieza was that he survived a planet bust, while bifurcated, and having been freshly blasted by Goku. Namek was also supposedly 11 times bigger than Earth was. Later on, Cell, whose very being is meant to be a DNA amalgamation of all the strongest fighters, as well as their muscle memory and techniques, seems scared when threatened with an attack that was only strong enough to destroy the Earth. For someone so powerful that beings from the Namek saga are nearly irrelevant, he shouldn't have been scared at all, especially when he has a regen that's better than Piccolo's. At the end of the ark, he meets his end to Gohan, and judging by the fact that the Earth was still there after the use of a full power, Super Saiyan 2 Kamehameha, his durability compared to Frieza was lack lustre.

Later on, when the denizens of Hell swarm the Earth, Gohan proves that Frieza is far from scary by obliterating him with a blast that's barely enough to shake a building. Where'd his durability go? Did he just spend his time in Hell eating donuts?

I brought up Pokemon because I wanted to address a fact that short busts of speed and speed-clones are a common factor in Manga, Anime and Japanese Games. Double Team's descriptor says that a Pokemon is moving so fast that it's making duplicates of itself, the same descriptor given to the Afterimage Technique. A friend of mine pointed out that any Pokemon that can learn a TM can learn double-team, which includes Snorlax, and I can pretty much bet that no one, whether fans of either franchise or not, would think that a slothful bear-like creature would be as fast as one of the most powerful fighters in the Dragonball cannon, regardless of whether Pokemon are demi-gods or not.

Really, it's down to the art style, I think. As I said in a few other threads, Manga and Comic books can't truly be judged so easily because of how they are presented.

To use speed as an example, when we see beings like Flash use Super-speed, the way it's presented on the Comic Page is the character mid-step, with a long streak of colour (usually that of their costume) trailing behind them into the background.

Meanwhile, in Manga, a character's use of the same speed is them being fairly transparent or disappearing altogether. This isn't just for serious fights, either. Sometimes, characters are capable of the 'Flash Step' for comic effect.

While they're both differing art-styles, they have the same purpose, which is to show that the character is moving fast, not exactly how fast, but fast none-the-less. The misconception is that, because we can still see Flash, we assume he's being seen with the eyes of a civilian bystander, rather than it being artistic presentation, and therefore is slower.

As another example, we can take Raditz. Raditz, when he first turned up, was capable of catching a bullet. When fighting Goku and Piccolo, he was also capable of the Flash Step. In the same series, Mr. Satan has shown to be able to use the Flash Step, but even then, is shot and almost killed by a man with a revolver. Despite the two of them using the same type of technique, animated in the same fashion, it's been shown that Mr. Satan can't catch bullets, and therefore, Raditz was faster.

One way both show speed in a similar fashion is essentially Panel Teleporting, where they appear in one panel, and then immediately appear in the next panel with a time frame of about a few seconds (indicated most times by a pause in speech).

Looking over the links, I have already indicated that the speed of the kamehameha changes as the show progresses, getting remarkably sluggish in later chapters, and as for the Light Prison, this could simply be a name. Kami has used the phrase "even my Godly eyes can't see them", but at the start of the Namek saga, his status as God is rather brutally debunked. it is, much like everything else, a name.

Regardless of beliefs, the word God indicates power, and a top tier of power too, and there have been many indications in Manga, Anime and Games where the word God is used as a prefix or suffix on an item, technique or form, with Bleach being the biggest indicator of this. If it were otherwise, it begs the question as to why Goku wasn't considered a God when he effectively surpassed Kami at the end of Dragonball.

Again, all of this is the opinion I've generated from looking everything over. By writing all of this, I don't mean to simply turn around and say "stfu, you're all wrong," but to show what I am taking away from reading the Dragon Ball manga. I could be entirely wrong, but again, opinion's opinion.

#12 Edited by cyborgx (151 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArticulateT: Maybe Semi-Perfect self-destruct wasn't strong enough to destroy the Solar System ....but that means nothing of speed all that means is the Manga dosen't all ways add up,but you can make senses of it.He may not move as fast as Flash-but then again Manga and comics is not exactly the same, when in comics they show a character moving at 'Hyper speeds" it's different from in Manga(but you have already pointed that fact out)in DBZ when they fight you can't see them because they move faster then "human eyes" can pick up, the only reasons you see them is because you're watching it on TV(or you're reading the Manga)

#13 Posted by JakeN7 (10568 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku's speed should be infinite and immeasurable considering that he can use Instant Transmission.

#14 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArticulateT: Pokémon have haxorz stats. not many people believe it, but reading the dex entries or the attack/technique entries is enough to know they are freaking physic breaking pocket monsters

#15 Posted by cyborgx (151 posts) - - Show Bio

@JakeN7 said:

Goku's speed should be infinite and immeasurable considering that he can use Instant Transmission.

Yes,but this is without IT

#16 Edited by BlueComet (1042 posts) - - Show Bio

The easiest way to tell Goku's speed is by looking at his Namek speed feat.

He flew half way around Namek in a second. Since Namek is the same size as the earth(24,859.82 miles around) that means he flew at about 44,747,676 mph in base form.

Base: 44,747,676 mph

SSJ: 2,237,383,800 mph

SSJ2: 4,474,767,600 mph

SSJ3: 17,899,070,400 mph

SSJ4: 178,990,704,000 mph

Each of his super saiyan forms are well over lightspeed. SSJ is 3.3x lightspeed, SSJ2 is 6.6x lightspeed, SSJ3 is 26.4x lightspeed, and SSJ4 is 264x lightspeed. If what isn't hard to realize that Goku is massively FTL, but with all the dbz haters who try and underrate the the show and all the fanboys who completely blow feats out of proportion, it's hard to tell how powerful Goku actually is. I think I did a pretty good job here though.

Feel free to check my math.

#17 Posted by ArticulateT (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlueComet: I don't dispute that DBZ fighters are faster than light to some extent, and the points I was making was that there are certain parts of the storyline that contradict earlier parts of the story. While I don't dispute your maths, and am perfectly alright with being wrong, I'm just saying that the way I see it, DBZ doesn't have a reliable set of material to judge solid things, and in that same sense, I can't say that Comics do either. I guess I'm not really made for debating, since I have read through the material of DBZ, and was confused as to why certain aspects of characters were weaker than others as the story progressed while others grew stronger, especially if the characters were meant to be gradually stronger in all aspects as the story moved on and it had the same writer throughout its entire run. The most likely possibility is that I've missed something somewhere, but that's the way I see it. I do ask the same of comics, but since comic-book stories rarely maintain the same writers, it's likely down to how each person interprets the character.

In saying all this, I don't mean to fanboy rage, even if I generally prefer Superman over Goku, and still maintain that the Man of Steel can beat the Saiyan in a fight (even though, really, there wouldn't be one), I just thought I'd weigh in with my own perception of it all.

#18 Edited by comicace3 (3469 posts) - - Show Bio

Well all I have to say too this is... good job. And I believe in dragoon ball you don't need to see to fight... you need to feel. Using Ki is much better than using eyesight... just saiyan.

#19 Posted by BlueComet (1042 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArticulateT said:

@BlueComet: I don't dispute that DBZ fighters are faster than light to some extent.

@ArticulateT said:

I'd like to add my own theory, in that Dragon Ball Z is not faster than the speed of light. Better yet, I'd like to point out a series that is much faster than DBZ.

#20 Posted by ArticulateT (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlueComet: Yes, I have contradicted myself there, my apologies.

#21 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say hypersonic

#22 Edited by TheSS2GreenLanturnArmy (31 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey check out my multipliers which are roughly correct

Oozaru: 10x base

False ssj: 25x base

Ssj: 50x base

Assj: 175x base

Ussj: 275x base

Fpssj: 625x base

Lssj: 1,875x base (goes up 100x for every minute in battle and goes back down every minute not in battle until returned to normal)

Ssj2: 2,500x base

Ssj3: 12,500x base (goes down 100x every minute in battle and goes back up 100x every minute not in battle until returned to normal)

Golden oozaru: 50,000x base

Ssj4: 125,000x base

And I haven't exactly figured out ssjg since it uses godly ki

#23 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@articulatet: His combat speed is much slower than that, and he can't go that speed instantly. In fact, his mass goes into a flux if he tries to hit you at light speed, and that would mean it wouldn't hurt if he hit you.

#24 Posted by cfrehse (1004 posts) - - Show Bio

INSTANT TRANSMISSION!

#25 Edited by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

Not ftl

been debunked by spacebattles and narutoforums

#26 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_rumble_man: Like what, Snake Way? Even though he's been shown to be faster than that in the past, to the point where people who could catch bullets couldn't even see them?

#30 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: IN DB goku was punching toonforce feats which are inconsistent with current showings, as in when goku punched yamcha to dent a comic panel in a game of rock-paper-scissors.

#31 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_rumble_man: And when was I ever talking about punching? Those feats are still quantifiable, aside from that feat.

#32 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: almighty staff to the moon in DB

then using space suit in DBZ

then edited in the movie where akira decides that goku ought to be able to breathe in space

I stick to massively hypersonic

#33 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_rumble_man: 1. Still usable, and it proves he can hold his breath a long time.

2. Filler.

3. He can't breathe in space, he is only able to survive in it, and hold breath for a long time

4. Feats say otherwise.

#34 Edited by TheReptile (190 posts) - - Show Bio

There is a difference between Flight speed and Combat Speed.

Combat speed FTL easy. Goku was faster then lightning as a kid and lightning at a minumim can be 0.1x light speed. Times that by 400 because of SSJ3 multipliers and you have at least 400x light speed.

Flight speed, I don't know. He hasn't really shown to go anywhere because of Instant Transmission but didn't fly halfway across Namek in just a couple of seconds?

#35 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@thereptile: One second. By the time Frieza's hand moved like a couple of inches, Goku was already there. And he was on the other side of the planet when it happened.

#36 Edited by Havenless (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

If anyone was moving faster than light speed, you wouldn't be able to see them. Yet, clear as day, they're shooting through the air, often carrying on a conversation as they do it. Can they also hear words shouted at light speed? The Speed of Sound is infinitesimal when matched with that of light. Also, their jet stream would basically obliterate everything around them. DBZ doesn't follow any rules of reality, and therefore trying to figure things like this out is futile.

The reality is they appear to be doing the exact same things in the first episode as the last one. They simply proclaim they're moving much faster, when in fact the laws of physics aren't following the dialogue.

#37 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless: First of all, why are you trying to apply real world physics to a cartoon anime show?

Secondly, all of that travel speed nonsense is PIS. When's the last time you have heard a character flying and having a conversation without something to enhance the story? Pretty much all throughout the series, right? In theory, they're trying to conserve their energy for the fight. Toriyama never cared about drawing anything to scale, or even Snake Way's actual length. In the DB world map he drew, he draws it as a quarter of the universe.

And in the Master Roshi vs Krillin fight, they have a conversation and a fight in 1/20 of a second, so yeah, obviously they're not going FTL in traverse speed, but rather just in combat speed, and in traverse speed if they use their full power. Point is, DBZ show is slowed down, as is the manga, so we (The Audience) Can actually see what's going on.

#38 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless: First of all, why are you trying to apply real world physics to a cartoon anime show?

Secondly, all of that travel speed nonsense is PIS. When's the last time you have heard a character flying and having a conversation without something to enhance the story? Pretty much all throughout the series, right? In theory, they're trying to conserve their energy for the fight. Toriyama never cared about drawing anything to scale, or even Snake Way's actual length. In the DB world map he drew, he draws it as a quarter of the universe.

And in the Master Roshi vs Krillin fight, they have a conversation and a fight in 1/20 of a second, so yeah, obviously they're not going FTL in traverse speed, but rather just in combat speed, and in traverse speed if they use their full power. Point is, DBZ show is slowed down, as is the manga, so we (The Audience) Can actually see what's going on.

#39 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan:

toon physics

ki does not have the same characteristics as light does

#40 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_rumble_man: You still haven't proven anything wrong. Quit disproving feats because ki just defies physics, that's how it's always been in the manga. There's no indication that it can't be FTL.

#41 Edited by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: oh and apply IRL calcs, not dbz maths calcs

There is no indication that it IS ftl either, there are debunks over at the sites i mentioned earlier. KI defies but its speed and destructive capacity are measurable.

#42 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_rumble_man: Then explain the Namek feat. Add the SSJ multipliers and BOOM. Lightspeed.

It's already explained above, you're gonna deny that too, even though it's in the manga.

#43 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan: Nope, I disregard dbz maths only on panel feats and actual fights

which one? those scans did not show

#44 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

@royal_rumble_man: The one that Blue Comet has shown, besides most of the maths you have seen are either made up formulas, or whatever. This one uses CANON SSJ Multipliers. Deny if you want, it's right there.

#45 Posted by Royal_Rumble_Man (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@limpoyzloan:

EoS DBZ = mach 1000 tops

but they may reach FTL with the installment of the new movie and series with bills/whis

they will get a boost, no worries

#46 Edited by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

If you read the series you will see a kid in a martial arts fantasy sci-fi manga that ignores of common laws of nature and logic, this kid dodges multiple machine gun bullets, then dodge energy beams from a kung fu master that could destroy the moon, then dodges robot lasers, defeats hundred year old demons, defeats the world's greatest assassin, defeats worlds most dangerous army (alone), kicks away bombs, gets trained by the gods of his universe (even when he's dead.) He's so praise by this same gods that they allow him to keep his body even while dead, trains in multiple times gravity becoming faster and stronger in the process, then you find out hes not human but an alien from a warrior race that just keeps getting stronger as long as they fight, then ascends to a level that same race thought it was a legend, defeats a space tyrant that can destroy planets with little to no effort and then he just keeps getting stronger from there.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this guy can never be FTL without BoG.

Goku has to be FTL before BoG. How is Bills suddenly MFTL in BoG, in a story based purely on progression? The past villains had to be at least FTL. Those scans above that detail the Namek feat are proof that they're light. Don't believe the 1 second time frame? Bump it up to 2 seconds and multiply with the multipliers. Still FTL. 3 seconds would still be FTL. See what I'm saying?

__________________

#47 Posted by LifeShaver (104 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku’s combat speed at SSJ4 is around 4000x the speed of light. Piccolo blasted the moon in a second and Toriyama stated in the daizenshuu (official DBZ encyclopedia) the moon is the same distance as our earth. It takes light 1 second to reach the moon.

And considering a character with stronger ki has faster ki attacks, it’s safe to say Goku’s punching/kicking speed and reflexes are at the same level of speed as his whole body movement.

Traveling speed: Instant (Transmission)

#48 Edited by gustrio11 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@articulatet:

Sorry to say but you should check your calculations.

You made a mistake. A supersaiyan in the namek saga should be faster.

Goku PL : 5000 = mach 30

Vegeta PL : 18000 = mach 108 = 82 210.3615 MPH

Vegeta at PL 500,000 fighting Frieza = 82 210.3615 MPH X 28 = 2301890 MPH

Vegeta was a Supersaiyan in the android saga at a base of 3,500,000

2301890 MPH X 7 =

16113230 MPH

Supersaiyan Vegeta (Just turned, fighting 18)

16113230 MPH X 50 = 805661500 MPH

805661500 MPH = 1.3 Million kilometres per hour

Supersaiyan Vegeta fighting android 18 does 1.3 million km/h

Android 18 should be 1.5-2 million km/h

And every dbz fan knows this.

Dbz characters teleport MUCH faster than their flight speed.

Raditz who at a PL: 1400 = Mach 8.5 flight speed could never in a million light years have dodged picollos special beam cannon which was FTL since it hit the moon so quick... if raditz only moved at mach 8.5... therefore proof is that they teleport >>>>> faster than they fly.

raditz flight = Mach 8.5 / 10,413 km/h

raditz's best teleport/dodge = just > FTL (eg. 1,100,000,000 km/h)

Imagine what vegeta would dodge....

Supersaiyan Vegeta at 175,000,000 to 180,000,000 (early android saga)

This means Vegeta would teleport at 141,428,100,000,000 km/h

or 141,000 X Light speed when he JUST turns Supersaiyan 1

#49 Edited by gustrio11 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@articulatet:

Sorry to say but you should check your calculations.

You made a mistake. A supersaiyan in the namek saga should be faster.

Goku PL : 5000 = mach 30

Vegeta PL : 18000 = mach 108 = 82 210.3615 MPH

Vegeta at PL 500,000 fighting Frieza = 82 210.3615 MPH X 28 = 2301890 MPH

Vegeta was a Supersaiyan in the android saga at a base of 3,500,000

Base Vegeta = 2301890 MPH X 7 =

16113230 MPH

Supersaiyan Vegeta (Just turned, fighting 18)

16113230 MPH X 50 = 805661500 MPH = A Supersaiyan

805661500 MPH = 1.3 Million kilometres per hour

Supersaiyan Vegeta fighting android 18 does 1.3 million km/h

Android 18 should be 1.5-2 million km/h

And every dbz fan knows this.

Dbz characters teleport MUCH faster than their flight speed.

Raditz who at a PL: 1400 = Mach 8.5 flight speed could never in a million light years have dodged picollos special beam cannon which was FTL since it hit the moon so quick... if raditz only moved at mach 8.5... therefore proof is that they teleport >>>>> faster than they fly.

raditz flight = Mach 8.5 / 10,413 km/h

raditz's best teleport/dodge = just > FTL (eg. 1,100,000,000 km/h)

Imagine what vegeta would dodge....

Supersaiyan Vegeta at 175,000,000 to 180,000,000 (early android saga)

This means Vegeta would teleport at 141,428,100,000,000 km/h

or 141,000 X Light speed when he JUST turns Supersaiyan 1

Do you really think frieza when he flew in flight speed can hit a teleporting ssj goku on namek? They can still sense each other though.. watch the part just before when frieza quotes "Superb, really, a very rare power indeed. But I go on and on, I am lord of the universe, nothing can stop me, nothing see."

he used his flight speed but it was too slow to hit a teleporting supersaiyan, same if it were with frieza. If he teleported flight speed would be super slow motion at him.