How do you feel about "Mary Sue" characters?

Basically, a "Mary Sue" character is a character who is so perfect that they can do no wrong no matter how intense or bad the situation is. Also, this could apply to said character being able to defeat absolutely any enemy without showing any signs of weaknesses and could also be used to represent the authors themselves. So with "Mary Sue" characters, do you hate these characters or do you love these characters?

I personally like it better when the main character actually has some flaws to their character rather than being so perfect all the time. I don't mind when a character actually tries to put their moralities ahead of them, but having them be so perfect all the time usually makes the stories too predictable and also wouldn't allow many stories to be told about the characters' inner insecurities about their lives.

People just call characters Mary Sues if they're annoyed when that character is outperforming their favorite.

For example, River Song from Doctor Who.

Is she actually flawless? No. Her love for the Doctor is actually her main weakness, and she almost breaks the universe because of it.

But people who hate her will call her a sue.

(A few people I know, even. Who I respectfully disagree with, in case they're reading. :P)

[(no really i'm sorry, river was the only example i could think of)]

It's probably worth noting that a 'Mary Sue' is a Mary Sue character not because of his/her perfection, but because the character 'represents' the author. Essentially what the author does is make the character an idealized, perfect, version of him or herself - that's a Mary Sue.

In terms of "perfect" characters: are there any left? Sure, Supes and Shazam have been in the past, but certainly not in the last decade, where we've seen some pretty cut-loose versions of previously restrained characters. First find me a Mary Sue then I can answer.

@Veshark said:

It's probably worth noting that a 'Mary Sue' is a Mary Sue character not because of his/her perfection, but because the character 'represents' the author. Essentially what the author does is make the character an idealized, perfect, version of him or herself - that's a Mary Sue.

Oh. Were there characters where the authors wanted to make a perfect version of themselves?

@Veshark said:

It's probably worth noting that a 'Mary Sue' is a Mary Sue character not because of his/her perfection, but because the character 'represents' the author. Essentially what the author does is make the character an idealized, perfect, version of him or herself - that's a Mary Sue.

Uh... I thought that was just called an "author avatar" or a "self insert"?

I didn't realize those were one and the same.

@Nightwing4 said:

In terms of "perfect" characters: are there any left? Sure, Supes and Shazam have been in the past, but certainly not in the last decade, where we've seen some pretty cut-loose versions of previously restrained characters. First find me a Mary Sue then I can answer.

I guess that would be hard to find a character who is absolutely perfect since they can vary depending on the writer.

I like Mary Sue characters on occasion. For example: it's interesting when a morally perfect character crumbles in the face of circumstances within the narrative; that's called character development. It's when a character is stagnant and never learns that they become uninteresting.

I suppose that's more the death of a Mary Sue, but still.

@JediXMan: I agree, Medaka Box is one example where the main character is a Mary Sue type of person, but the author likes to explore the faulty aspects of that.

@Rabbitearsblog:

@Rabbitearsblog@InnerVenom123

I'm fairly certain that's the definition of a Mary Sue, based on my interactions in the fanfiction writing community as well as these helpful pages from Wikipedia & TV Tropes. The latter in particular clarifies that its usage originally stemmed from a Star Trek fanfiction that featured an author avatar with the name 'Mary Sue'. Although it can be subjective to identify a Mary Sue, these two lines from TV Tropes more or less surmise the definition of a Mary Sue:

The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female [or male, as the case may be] character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of wish fulfillment.

Sometimes they can be funny to mock. Otherwise you get Bella Swan.

@Rumble Man said:

@Rabbitearsblog:

That is the reason I never read DBZ fanfics.

@BlackWind:

@Rumble Man: A prime Mary Sue red flag is a multitude of different bloodlines, hypercompetent in multiple areas, and shapeshifting into animals is a very common Mary Sue trait.

@BlackWind:

The term now is a bit watery as opposed to its traditional usage, so in many ways now it can be important when discussing to actually know what criteria you and the people you are discussing with are using. I usually apply a very subjective liberal definition, as far as a character who is presented to a reader thats perfect. That word perfect being a bit subjective, and so not meant to be literal, but more presented in a certain appealing way thats almost like an attempt of perfection as far as how the writer sees it. I like this definition because it usually acknowledges the writers input as far as the character but isn't as restrictive and people have different ideas about what characteristics and traits are valuable, perfect, ideal and so on.

Also means that in this sense whether a character is a Mary Sue or not to me, depends on both the character and the writer, and not just one of those elements. I felt Matt Fractions Cyclops was a Mary Sue for example, but in the very same month, under a different writer, in the same plot, he wouldn't be a Mary Sue. So under Fraction Cyclops would be lusted after by Cuckoos and Pixie, whilst banging Emma mid mission psychically while all the other X-Men were being whopped, only to find out its not Emma but the psychic ghost of his ex wife who was a clone of his Mary Sue ex wife, then he would torture some guy to get info and all this during around he was saving an entire species and uniting a group of egotistical people who would disagree with each other 99% of the time for the hell of it. Oh but he has a heavy heart and mind and weight on his shoulders and he is focused on ensuring the safety of mutants. You can tell because of the unkempt facial hair thing he had going on. THEN.... in X-Force, Legacy, Astonishing around the exact same time, he actually shows doubt, pause, consideration and isn't having sex mid mission or torturing guys creatively or having underage girls shamelessly flirt with him. So to me under Fraction he was but only under Fraction. Its too bad that Uncanny tends to set the status quo and direction of most X-Men.

I'll use that example again because Mary Sues only bother me when they have a detrimental effect on the character (themselves) or the characters around them. Above example to me was detrimental to Cyclops and the characters around him. In a solo book with unestablished characters such a character and story I could see working. Many solo characters books (and fan fictons) follow a similar outline. Many comic book fans do want to read about themselves which will often either line up with a writer who wants to read about himself as well, or a writer being savvy enough to know what certain readers want and give it to them. A "perfect" character to live vicariously through. Myself I am usually a bigger fan of deconstruction, diversity, creativity and consistent characterization, so I like Mary Sues if done satirically or as a deconstruction or if set up to be broken and corrupted. Depends on context really.

@Rumble Man said:

@BlackWind:

Hahaha, I love this. Saving it to my hard drive for future use right now!

@Veshark: yuh huh :)

I always felt Harry Potter was a bit of a Mary Sue, at least in the movies, especially the first one. He was a nice kid from a rough background who was immediately popular among the characters we were meant to like, good at everything almost immediately and the one guy who can save the day all because of a scar on his forehead. I dunno, perhaps the books made him a little more flawed, but it still grates on me.

I guess when it comes down to it, Mary Sues are irritating, but also kind of unavoidable. First time writers, especially at a young age will fall into the trap of making a Sue, even if they set out not to do so. In that same sense, it's possible to fall into the trap of making the Anti-Sue, where the character holds no redeemable features and is purposely designed to be disliked, which in turn makes the character boring without the positive aspects to make them believable.

Author insertion characters are also a given, as when making their first character template, a writer will more than likely use themselves. The more honest they are about themselves, the more believable they are as a person, but it still holds a Mary Sue air about it by the fact that, as an Author Insert, they are bound to succeed in whatever they do.

I suppose one thing that can let you know if a character is definitely a Sue is the De-suifying arc or chapter, where suddenly the character obtains massive flaws and is beaten down, as the Author, either under pressure from the readers or just realising it themselves, understands what their character is and dramatically attempts to rectify the glaring mistake.

Mary Sues can be annoying, but I mostly just ignore them.

My first encounter with a Mary Sue character was Dash Rendar from the book Shadows of the Empire. I liked the game for N64 but in the book the character was just too perfect. I know he was making up for the missing Han Solo but he was just too much the absolutely perfect scoundrel it drove me crazy.

I remember the perfect description of a Mary Sue though was a spoof Harry Potter comic strip which I can't find. It was a young girl talking to Professor Snape saying that she was 19 but just found out she's a wizard but now she's head girl for Gryffindor, Hermione's best friend and a flying unicorn animagus. Once she started hitting on Professor Snape he had to kill her of course.

@InnerVenom123 said:

People just call characters Mary Sues if they're annoyed when that character is outperforming their favorite.

For example, River Song from Doctor Who.

Is she actually flawless? No. Her love for the Doctor is actually her main weakness, and she almost breaks the universe because of it.

But people who hate her will call her a sue.

(A few people I know, even. Who I respectfully disagree with, in case they're reading. :P)

[(no really i'm sorry, river was the only example i could think of)]

(Cracks knuckles)

And to people who don't know what a Mary Sue is;

Hope Summers

and River Song

Rhonin of the Kirin Tor

Balthier from Final Fantasy XII

If the character can do no wrong they're a Mary Sue. If they make a questionable decision in a time of jeopardy, but acts of god cause it to be the perfect decision, then they might be a Mary Sue. Example: If there are two tunnels, one is caving-in and one is normal, and the hero chooses the caving-in one for no better reason than 'it looks like fun!'... then the enemy catches up and chooses the normal one because that would have been the logical place for the hero to go... and then gets eaten by a bear in the normal one while the hero gets out just fine... that's just Mary Sue garbage. Another big red flag is if they had some bad event happen to them in the past, and they're hiding it. So, mysteriously shrouded yet charismatic and likable to the reader is usually a common trait.

Edit: Add in when a character knows something that makes no sense they know, just to prove how smart they are:

Character A) "I know the enemy went left because of the limp he had wouldn't let him run sharply to the right."

Character B) "You said you've never seen him in your life, nor know absolutely anything about him. How do you know he has a limp?"

Character A) "We don't have time for that now, Robin!"

I tend to dislike them. They are very common in comics, though, so it really depends on the writer. Claremont's Storm was a Mary Sue, but so is Wolverine on a daily basis. PIS and CIS make it even more difficult to differentiate.

You're just stating the obvious in the second paragraph.
BB

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

People just call characters Mary Sues if they're annoyed when that character is outperforming their favorite.

For example, River Song from Doctor Who.

Is she actually flawless? No. Her love for the Doctor is actually her main weakness, and she almost breaks the universe because of it.

But people who hate her will call her a sue.

(A few people I know, even. Who I respectfully disagree with, in case they're reading. :P)

[(no really i'm sorry, river was the only example i could think of)]

(Cracks knuckles)

*Hides behind @Mercy_*

I like them. It takes all kinds.You need Mary sues and you need "My dark passenger compels me to walk the mean streets blah blah blah I have problems with my father blah blah. "

@Fuchsia_Nightingale said:

I like them. It takes all kinds.You need Mary sues and you need "My dark passenger compels me to walk the mean streets blah blah blah I have problems with my father blah blah. "

I don't think Mary Sues or Marty Stus add anything to the comic, so I don't think they are good for stories.

@PhoenixoftheTides: Again that's you. Takes all kinds

I'm with IV on this one.

I admittedly haven't come across too many characters who would meet this criteria, just because I haven't read a lot of comics from a lot of different places. Hope Summers was mentioned, but I'm not sure she fits, because while her powers were very ridiculous (I've only read through Second Coming, mind you, so maybe she became a Mary Sue afterwards), pretty much no one liked her. If you're going to create an avatar for yourself, don't make her the leading source of trouble for everyone else, and don't make her the indirect cause of death for a beloved established character, you know?

Anyhow, I appreciate the notion that Mary Sues detract from good plot and such. But I loathe -- loathe -- the concept that morally upright characters need to be corrupted to make them interesting.

@akbogert: I agree, I think there's some confusion here between "overpowered" and completely-perfect-character (powers and personality/life-outcomes).

Was Luke Skywalker meant to be Lucas's Mary Sue? Luke-S = Lucas? Ok that's just the name but I don't see anything more than that but I do hear the claim a lot of times.

Very few published works of fiction are actually Mary Sues. Most people can't seem to get the difference between "powerful" and "perfect," which annoys me. For example, after showing this guy that Martian Manhunter could easily beat his character, he said Martian Manhunter was a Mary Sue, when Martian Manhunter clearly has flaws and character.

Mary Sues rarely infuriate me. If anything, I think they're quite funny because of how painfully obvious most of them are.

Mary sues vary from author to author,for e.g Jason Todd was a mary sue under Judd Winick but not when written by Lobdell.Mary Sues dont have to be perfect either,they are just written as being right and justified in what they do at the expense of others or story telling but can have character flaws in them.

@Mercy_ said:

I'm with IV on this one.

Coward!

@Mercy_ said:

I'm with IV on this one.

Coward!

@Mercy_ said:

@FadeToBlackBolt

@Mercy_ said:

I'm with IV on this one.

Coward!

Say that to my face!

Er, I did?

A Mary Sue is a bland stereotype of perfection; a character whose personality is as two dimensional as their appearance, yet who lacks the depth of flawed reality. I don't think it started with perfect superheroes so much as it started with the background characters in news paper comic strips rather than comic books - the parents, the friends, the girlfriends that had that disgusting false small town apple pie american air about them - although Batman and Superman hardly had time to reflect on their dark brooding pasts. Artists and writers didn't have much page space for character building and try to get a kid to pay attention to that sort of stuff anyway, at least from my generation. A lot of comic characters didn't really start to become so flawed and complex until the 90's and 00's either, it was always for the kids until the fans got older and realised life was just as much horse shit as it was roses if not more and needed substance they could relate to and thank god for writers and publishers realising it. I find that most if not all female characters from the old comics with two names or double barrelled christian names were designed to be Mary Sues (Mary Jane?) and in order to survive they had to evolve, simples!

@Fuchsia_Nightingale said:

I like them. It takes all kinds.You need Mary sues and you need "My dark passenger compels me to walk the mean streets blah blah blah I have problems with my father blah blah. "

this

@ImmortalOne said:

Very few published works of fiction are actually Mary Sues. Most people can't seem to get the difference between "powerful" and "perfect," which annoys me. For example, after showing this guy that Martian Manhunter could easily beat his character, he said Martian Manhunter was a Mary Sue, when Martian Manhunter clearly has flaws and character.

lol, wow

Meh, I like em.

There are plenty of types of Sues. Like Canon Sues.

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

I tend to dislike them. They are very common in comics, though, so it really depends on the writer. Claremont's Storm was a Mary Sue, but so is Wolverine on a daily basis. PIS and CIS make it even more difficult to differentiate.

I definitely agree with this, especially with stories that has PIS and CIS. Anyone could be written extremely perfect or flawed depending on the writer during those types of events.

I like a lot of them.

They have their place in comics especially in juxtaposition to ultra-violent, borderline mentally ill anti-heroes.

I only like Mary Sues such as Batman, fan ficton Mary Sues are the worst type of character.