Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio

What impact do you think  superheroes have had on our history and culture.
#1 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they made their biggest impact during World War II. Did you know that Marvel Comics recieved soooooooooo much hate mail about the first Captain America comic because of the cover? It was on the news and everything. That issue sold out extremely quick lol.  
 
Oh and the Nazi's accused Superman of being a Jew. 
 
Isn't it kind of ironic that the superheroes are the ones against Hitler? I mean, here's Steve Rogers, a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, perfect human being against the man who wants to create a world of people just like him. I'm not siding with Hitler by no means, but doesn't anyone else see that? lol
#2 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:

"I think they made their biggest impact during World War II. Did you know that Marvel Comics recieved soooooooooo much hate mail about the first Captain America comic because of the cover? It was on the news and everything. That issue sold out extremely quick lol.   Oh and the Nazi's accused Superman of being a Jew.  Isn't it kind of ironic that the superheroes are the ones against Hitler? I mean, here's Steve Rogers, a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, perfect human being against the man who wants to create a world of people just like him. I'm not siding with Hitler by no means, but doesn't anyone else see that? lol "


Hmm, thats interesting, I never knew any of that. I was gonna say how Superman's affected a lot of kids that I know. They grew up watching the cartoon and so did I. But for them Superman did what he was created to do. He tought them morals and how to generally be a good person. I was always more of a Batman, learning how to solve my problems with logic and intellect    
#3 Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with both of you.

#4 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555:

I agree about Superman. He's made a huge impact on everyone mainly because he was the first of the breed. Fighting for truth, justice, (and during the Cold War) the American way, he was always a role model for children and teenagers alike. What makes him even more interesting is that he is (while some people don't recognize it) an immigrant. He's fighting for a people that he's not even a member of. I think that's pretty respectable.  
 
And Batman was always one of my favorites. He was Superman's complete opposite, and yet he got the jobe done. What I didn't like was that trend during the 40's when all the superheroes got sidekicks. Batman and Robin, Human Torch and Toro, Catman and Kitten, etc. Stan Lee actually hated that idea as well. He felt that if a young person wanted to be a hero, they wouldn't be in another one's shadow, but they'd actually BE the hero. That's how Spider-Man was born. Through the years, though, I've come to respect Batman and Robin. You know that they were almost banned in the 50's?
#5 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024:
No actually. I knew that Robin was the first teen "sidekick" although knowing Dick he prefered the word partner so that he wouldn't be in Batman's shadow. But yea I knew Dick was the first kid to be a sidekick and from there everyone else wanted to create kid sidekicks as well. Oh and your right Superman is an immagrint and an illegal one at that. That's why I like Smallville because there's an episode where Clark is harboring an illegal immagrint because he's being used as part of a slave camp. Mrs. Kent is against it and says she has to turn the kid over because he's an illegal immagrent and Clark tells her that technically he is too, and that she's been harboring him for over 16 yrs. But thats what makes Superman superman. He does whats right because its right. Plus he's always willing to fight for truth, justice (and now a days) all that stuff (its still funny when they say it lol).
#6 Posted by DeathinFire (281 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like I'm running this topic into the ground because I talk about it so much.  I wrote a blog a while back about it.  I think that comic books have had a huge impact on our culture.  People couldn't tell you who the 6th President was, who Englands current Prime Minister is, and they couldn't find Estonia on a map, but they know what Superman's real name is, both of them.  They couldn't tell you much of anything about the history of their own people, or about the system of government, national and world, that effects them on a day to day basis, but they could tell you all about Batman and Robin, Spiderman, Wolverine, and so on.  Even the ones who don't read comics.  They may even laugh or blow off the idea, say that comis are silly or childish fantasy, but this is the same kind of reaction many people gave to Aesops Fables, the tales of Myth from various cultures, and American folklore.  Captain America has replaced Uncle Sam as the icon of America.  These characters are our John Henry's, our Paul Revere's, our Johnny Appleseeds or Wild Bill Hickock's.   These symbols of everything we think America stands for, or what it should stand for anyways.  Truth, Justice, and the American Way.
#7 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, wow idk if you meant that as a good or bad thing. Kind of a double sided compliment isn't it.
#8 Posted by DeathinFire (281 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555:
It was meant as a good thing, but I guess now that you've brought it to my attention is does say something negative about our culture as Americans.
#9 Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio

True but I kind of like it this way. Superheroes give kids someone to dream about being when they grew up and look up too. I mean how many seven year olds say they want to be Winston Churchill when they grow up- none that I know of, but ask them how many want to be Batman- you get a ton of responses. So while you do have very valid points I like the impact comics have had on our lives. Of course though I am reffering to the early ones since heroes nowadays just seem to have lost their way and their morals. I just hope that we can get the old Superman, Batman, Spiderman, and Captain America back. Those were the true heroes.
#10 Posted by Dracade102 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:
"I think they made their biggest impact during World War II. Did you know that Marvel Comics recieved soooooooooo much hate mail about the first Captain America comic because of the cover? It was on the news and everything. That issue sold out extremely quick lol.   Oh and the Nazi's accused Superman of being a Jew.  Isn't it kind of ironic that the superheroes are the ones against Hitler? I mean, here's Steve Rogers, a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, perfect human being against the man who wants to create a world of people just like him. I'm not siding with Hitler by no means, but doesn't anyone else see that? lol "
 
Patriotism Blinded Both Steve and the Nazis... If he and Red Skull didn't hate each other so much I Think Cap would've been a good nazi
#11 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio

You know, here's something I never even thought about until now. When you ask a kid, do you want to grow up to be Superman? What are you really asking. You're not asking them if they want to be able to fly or pound a bad guy into a brick wall. In essence what your asking them is do you want to be the ultimate good guy. The person thats always there to help others no matter when or where. Now sure the kids may not see it that way they may say yes because they DO want to fly but  maybe that'll inspire them to be a pilot.
#12 Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555: 

No truer words have ever been said.    
#13 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks I think this is the best conversation I've had in awhile

#14 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555:

Yup. And the reason behind how DC almost stopped printing Batman was because after WWII, there was a doctor who blamed comic books for corrupting child youth. He said that Superman did whatever he wanted without thinking of the consequences, Batman and Robin were two men engaged in a homosexual fantasy, and that Wonder Woman was the exact opposite of what a woman is supposed to be. That man (as stupid as those facts are) almost single-handedly destroyed the whole industry. After that, all the comic companies got together and made that Comic's Code Authority. Now Superman was working extremely close with the cops, Batman and Robin spent more time with female characters, and Wonder Woman spent more of her issues with her boyfriend Steve. Then Marvel boomed in the 60's and things changed forever.
#15 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dracade102:
Well not only Steve, but all superheroes in general were blinded by patriotism. You had Superman who basicaally ended the war in two panels, Namor directing his hatred toward humans directly against the Nazi's, etc. And I agree, had it been different, Steve would've been an excellent Nazi. He was basically Hitler's discription of a perfect human being.
#16 Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555:
Me too.
#17 Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024:
Actually Wonder Woman was almost cancelled because her character prooved too erotic for the period and they thought the men were creepy. But other than that everything you said is true. You are one of the few people I know who knows the controversy of comics too.
#18 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@arrowfan237:
That's true too. Her books were also filled with erotic images (tho I'm not sure if that was intentional or not. You never know what some of those artists were thinking). I'm really interested in the early roots of the comic book industry. Comics always had a way of reflecting problems in society within their issues. They covered everything from war and prejudice to religion and drug abuse. Marvel especially pushed the envelope with some of their characters and stories. You really have to hand it to people like Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Witout them, the industry would've been very one-dimensional and gray.
#19 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:
"@Phantim555: Yup. And the reason behind how DC almost stopped printing Batman was because after WWII, there was a doctor who blamed comic books for corrupting child youth. He said that Superman did whatever he wanted without thinking of the consequences, Batman and Robin were two men engaged in a homosexual fantasy, and that Wonder Woman was the exact opposite of what a woman is supposed to be. That man (as stupid as those facts are) almost single-handedly destroyed the whole industry. After that, all the comic companies got together and made that Comic's Code Authority. Now Superman was working extremely close with the cops, Batman and Robin spent more time with female characters, and Wonder Woman spent more of her issues with her boyfriend Steve. Then Marvel boomed in the 60's and things changed forever. "

Yea I remember watching something  about that on History Channel. It all started with Roy Harper doing heroin and the doctor took it as comic books telling kids its ok to do drugs when actually Green Arrow and Green Lantern (the ACTUAL heroes) wanted to get him OFF of the drugs. I remember Stan Lee was very passionate when he spoke about that part of comic history. He said heroes and even sidekicks were SUPPOSED to have problems because they were people. Thats why he gave spider-man girl problems. Ironman had a drinking problem. Man I remember watching that and thinking wow. And if you think about it today is just like back then. Wonder Woman still doesn't have a definate boyfriend and is is drawn very sexy (that doctor woulda had a field day if power-girl or even Supergirl, with her mini skirt, were around back then) Batman and Robin are once again flying solo (kind of) and Superman, well he and the other kryptonians just fought a war on earth without answering to the authorities at all.
#20 Posted by arrowfan237 (465 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555:
 No offense but that is not correct. The Green Arrow story with the drugs came in during the 60s and had no reason to do with the downfall of comics. That had to do with everyone doing drugs in the 1960s and they saw how much publicity that spiderman story got. The downfall occured when an idiot congressman or something was visiting juvy and saw that the kids read comics. He then determined that Batman was gay and Wonder Woman was too erotic. All of this though was going on in the 1950's about the same time as the mcarthy hearings. Sorry about correcting you but those are the facts.
#21 Posted by Byzantine (357 posts) - - Show Bio

It took this long for anyone to name the good psychiatrist responsible for the anti-comics crusade? Dr. Fredric Wertham (1895-1981) and his ever-famous "Seduction of the Innocent" (1954). He cited "overt or covert depictions of violence, sex, drug use, and other adult fare" within    the comic books of the 1940s and early 1950s. Instead of considering any of it reflective of either the social enviroment or the haunted imaginations of the creators, Wertham insisted the behavior depicted was emulated by the readers. While always assuming the readers were exclusively young children. He didn't even figure that some of the comics he criticized, particulary actual crime and horror comics were aimed at older readers.  
 
Wertham also saw homosexuality as a disease and believed comic books were promoting it. Batman and Robin sharing a house and being partners. Clearly homosexuals. He had a case in noting the strong bondage subtext in Wonder Woman, actually part of creator's William Moulton Marston's fascination of the subject. But he found even worse the strenght and independance of the character, identifying her as a lesbian. Superman was Un-American and clearly held to a "fascist" ideal (sic).  
 
Among his other rather poor observations was: "I have known many adults who have treasured throughout their lives some of the books they read as children. I have never come across any adult or adolescent who had outgrown comic-book reading who would ever dream of keeping any of these 'books' for any sentimental or other reason."     Basically he asserted that nobody could be sentimentally attached to this material. How many people in comicvine would agree?  
 
Wertham was already quite famous before starting his crusade. He was responsible for psychiatric evaluations of convicted felons in New York since 1932 and his name was often connected to famous legal cases of the day. Naturally his findings about the criminal nature of comic books were taken seriously by the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency.  "Wertham repeated his call ... [for] national legislation based on the public health ideal that would prohibit the circulation and display of comic books to children under the age of fifteen."    He was even displeased with the rather draconian Comics Code Authority, largely formed in response to his crusade. He felt it was actually too soft! 
 
Wertham was not only against comics, he felt television had the same effect. In 1959, Wertham completed his anti-television book "The War on Children". This time he could not even find a publisher willing to put it on the market. In the 1960s he turned his efforts to books about the ill effects of racial segregation in society and the role of medical professionals in the Holocaust. He returned to comic book study in the 1970s, this time with the far more positive "  The World of Fanzines: A Special Form of Communication" (1973). He still was suspect of mainstream comic books but was delighted with fanzines and their supposed positive role in forming bonds in a wider community. He was even invited as a speaker at the New York Comic Convention. But once most attendants realized who Wertham was they heckled him. He never dealt with comics again.    

#22 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio
@arrowfan237 said:
"@Phantim555:  No offense but that is not correct. The Green Arrow story with the drugs came in during the 60s and had no reason to do with the downfall of comics. That had to do with everyone doing drugs in the 1960s and they saw how much publicity that spiderman story got. The downfall occured when an idiot congressman or something was visiting juvy and saw that the kids read comics. He then determined that Batman was gay and Wonder Woman was too erotic. All of this though was going on in the 1950's about the same time as the mcarthy hearings. Sorry about correcting you but those are the facts. "

No its ok I don't mind being corrected if I'm wrong. But I thought it was apart of that whole thing too.
#23 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio
@byzantine:
Yep yep I remember learning all about that it was really interesting and at the same time kind of pathetic
#24 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phantim555 said:
"@Gambit1024 said:
"@Phantim555: Yup. And the reason behind how DC almost stopped printing Batman was because after WWII, there was a doctor who blamed comic books for corrupting child youth. He said that Superman did whatever he wanted without thinking of the consequences, Batman and Robin were two men engaged in a homosexual fantasy, and that Wonder Woman was the exact opposite of what a woman is supposed to be. That man (as stupid as those facts are) almost single-handedly destroyed the whole industry. After that, all the comic companies got together and made that Comic's Code Authority. Now Superman was working extremely close with the cops, Batman and Robin spent more time with female characters, and Wonder Woman spent more of her issues with her boyfriend Steve. Then Marvel boomed in the 60's and things changed forever. "
Yea I remember watching something  about that on History Channel. It all started with Roy Harper doing heroin and the doctor took it as comic books telling kids its ok to do drugs when actually Green Arrow and Green Lantern (the ACTUAL heroes) wanted to get him OFF of the drugs. I remember Stan Lee was very passionate when he spoke about that part of comic history. He said heroes and even sidekicks were SUPPOSED to have problems because they were people. Thats why he gave spider-man girl problems. Ironman had a drinking problem. Man I remember watching that and thinking wow. And if you think about it today is just like back then. Wonder Woman still doesn't have a definate boyfriend and is is drawn very sexy (that doctor woulda had a field day if power-girl or even Supergirl, with her mini skirt, were around back then) Batman and Robin are once again flying solo (kind of) and Superman, well he and the other kryptonians just fought a war on earth without answering to the authorities at all. "

Yup, I love that documentary. Stan recieved a letter from the government that told him to print a story with one of the Marvel characters about the dangers of drug addiction. He sent it to the Comic's Code and they kept sending it back. Stan said to hell with it and published the book without going thru the process. The book sold extremely well, and it was a great success. I believe that was the first time that smething was published without the approval. Then Green Lantern and Green Arrow came up with an even more detailed story like that. It was very well written, but unfortunately that book stopped selling, so it was canceled a few issues later.
#25 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
@byzantine:

Wertham, that was his name. Thank you for posting all that info. He was seriously a messed up individual to even consider the idea of Superman being a facsist. I mean in one story he basically ended WWII in a few panels! And the CCA soft? Please. You know that when the artist who drew the Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD books (I forgot his name, my appologies) drew cleavage on a woman they actually erased the line? There was also a scene in a particular where Fury was with his lady friend and they were about to "get romantic" and the CCA totally switched the panels around, making the scene even MORE suggestive. Some people just have way too much time on their hands to over analyze these great pieces of literature. I learned more about issues like drug abuse and profiling by reading Spider-Man and X-Men than I ever have by sitting in a social studies class.
#26 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, thats kind of interesting too. I mean its the same way for me. I always knew how bad HIV/AIDS was but never knew anyone w/ it so I didn't see the day to day issues they had to deal with until I started reading teen titans and green arrow and saw how and what Mia had to deal with. Green Arrow certainly knows how to pick sidekicks lol
#27 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes he does, lol. I think he should stay outta that game from now on
#28 Posted by Phantim555 (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, his partners may have problems but they're good heroes. Just look at Roy he keeps fighting even tho he lost an arm. I know a lot of major heroes that would've packed it in. And Mia's a great archer in her own right