You need to calculate the obvious ? :P
Goku vs Naruto Calculations and Comparison
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OK, I'm going to go through this step by step. First of all, Sage Mode:
Sage Mode takes Nature Energy that the user absorbs into their bodies and mixes with their chakra. Let's look at Fukakasaku (Pa). He is a centuries year old toad that stands at 9.9 inches. He isn't even a foot tall. He lifted Gamabunta, who stands at 55 feet tall, with a toad being twice as long a s they are tall, he is around about 110 feet long. Gamabunta personally is as wide as he is tall, 55 feet.
A mature rhino is about 4foot 3 inches high, 7 foot 10 inches in length and is around 3 feet from side to side. It will generally weigh 1500 pounds.
Rhino: 51 inches x 154 inches x 36 inches = 282, 744 inches cubed.
Gamabunta: 660 inches x 1,320 inches x 660 inches = 574,992,000 inches cubed.
574,992,000 divided by 282,744 = 2033.61
Gamabunta is around 2033.61 times the weight of a mature rhino.
1500 x 2033.61 = 3,050,415
Gamabunta weighs around 3,050,415 pounds, aka 1,525.2 tons.
Fukusaku: 9.9 inches x 4 inches (shaped differently) x 4 inches= 158.4 inches cubed.
574,992,000 divided by 158.4 = 3,630,000
Sage mode allows the user to lift objects that weigh over 3,630,000 times their own weight when mastered. The people to have mastered it are Naruto Uzumaki, Minato Namikaze, Fukasaku, Shima and Hashirama Senju. Naruto's recorded weight is 50.9 kg, about 112 pounds.
112 x 3630,000 = 406,560,000
Naruto in sage mode can lift and throw , with ease, around 406,560,000 pounds, aka 203,280 tons.
Next is Six Paths Sage Mode:
This is the heightened version. This lets the user fly, gives the ability of truth seeking balls and immunity to them. FYI, the TSBs are HAX!!!
The person's stats are increased by a dramatic amount when using this. Naruto was able to blitz people who can teleport and shift dimensions.
The SPSM has no known time limit and is only described as a dramatic increase from the previous sage mode. It only takes a single second for a person to enter as well. There are also no harmful effects or exhaustion to deal with, unlike the original sage mode.
Goku:
These are the real proven stats. All taken form the manga or the creator of said manga. Can't handle it? I don't particularly care.
Goku's base form is 10 tons, admitted by HIMSELF! That is still pretty impressive, as his weight is shown to be 137 pounds. 10 tons is 20,000 pounds, which is 145.9 times his own body weight. Goku had to turn Super Saiyan to handle 10 tons per limb, meaning 40 tons over his entire body.
Note: Grand Kai's planet didn't have enhanced gravity, just to stop that argument in its tracks.
Super Saiyan makes the user 50 times stronger. That makes his Super Saiyan limit 500 tones per limb, so 2000 tones on his entire body.
Super Saiyan 2 is 100 times base, making that 1000 per limb, meaning 4000 on his entire body.
Super Saiyan 3 isn't confirmed but is said to have oincreased stats by 400, so 4000 per limb, so 16000 on his entire body.
Super Saiyan 4 is FILLER!!! Super Saiyan God is canon, but requires 6 good hearted Saiyans giving power to be infused into one for this to be achieved and isn't even permanent.
Naruto: Regular sage mode: 203,280 tons minimum
Goku:: Super Saiyan 3: 16,000 tons max
Super Saiyan God MIGHT be more powerful than regular sage mode but noone knows the real limits of that or SPSM.
Either way, Naruto is a badass, Goku is a badass, the maths simply show that Naruto out punches Goku.
Majority of calculations taken from fairy tail dragon slayer on FF.net, check it out, only found one thing wrong on the first chapter and that was Goku's weight limit.
Were comparing two different powers here the ki/Chi and chakra and also a saiyan and human so people are saying that Naruto wouldnt be a ninja without the nine tailed fox but have you thought that goku wouldnt be strong if he didn't achieved the super saiyan form. Not saying that Goku can't beat Naruto because he can. Just saying and my opinion here. #dealwithit I also think that Goku vs Naruto fight would be more exciting than A battle with Superman. Like I saied my opinion here.
@lieren: I wish people would stop using the 40 tons argument unless they actually know the context behind that scene
A) his base form is far above 10 tons (his fight with piccolo at the WMAT proves that)
B) he was trying to use bukijutsu with the weight (flying and being able to move in the air with it at the same time)
Sorry, it's just starting to become a bit of a peeve when I see people use that scene
Anyways, nice naruto calculation
Well, I guess I have to go a bit more... Drastic. Let's start with chakra. According to the Sage of Six Paths, chakra is used to connect a person's spiritual and physical energies. Spiritual and Physical energies. This means that the physical energy Ki, and the Spiritual one, reiatsu (?) are both available to Naruto. Don't believe me? Look it up. When the sage talks about Ninshu, he explains that it was originally going to be people who connect their spiritual energies together to understand one another. Obviously, that didn't happen. Chakra also amplifies the energies, making a chakra user's Ki stronger than a normal person's Ki. Same with reiatsu.
Next, let's look at gravity. Gravity tends to play a part in the DBZ series, and it is actually fairly amazing in the Naruto series.
To find the gravity of Naruto's planet, we need to find the size of the planet.
A ninja can run three days and nights straight if they take soldier pills. Finding the speed of a ninja, that was hard.
The speed of the average Genin would be around 80mph.
Fairy tail dragon slayer found this out by driving along a highway until the area passing him by was similar to the background in Naruto's running. Not very scientific but it's the best we have.
To get to Suna, a Genin can use the above method and reach there in three days time.
1 day = 24 hrs
24 x 3 = 72 hrs
72 x 80 = 5760
The distance between Konoha and Suna is about 5760 miles.
The USA is about 2680 miles wide horizontally. A Genin can run across the USA in under 2 days.
Taking a map of the elemental nations, horizontally it takes up 6 of these little sections. So...
2680 x 5 = 28,800
From top to bottom, it takes 6, so...
2680 x 6 = 34,560
Don't believe me? The elemental nations touches the North Pole and the equator at the same time. The Land of Lightning is high up along the map and is covered in snow a lot, the land of Wind is a desert, likely where the Equator of the planet is because it's just so damn hot, an in between is the land of fire, which is basically the oak version of a rainforest.
OK, next is the USA with a surface area of 3,806,000 square miles.
The using the diagonal 5760 mile line between Konoha and Suna, I was able to make several squares and then fill in the Elemental Nations with them.
These squares would be 4072.94 miles horizontally and vertically. Square that an you get...
16,588,840.2
Each square has a surface area of 16,588,840.2 square miles. After taking apart the EN, and measuring each part, looooong time btw, I found how many of those squares would fit into the EN...
27.5
Or, 16,588,840.2 x 27.5 = 456,193,106.699 square miles.
The real Earth has a surface area of 196,900,000 square miles.
Which means that the elemental nations alone are 2.3 times bigger than our earth.
Next, the elemental nations are about 1/7 of the Naruto world, so we multiply that by 7 and...
We get 3,191,151,746.89. Naruto Earth is 16.2 times larger than real earth.
Seeing as the Naruto earth is made of the same stuff, it has 16.2 times gravity of out earth, so the average Genin, runs at about 1296 mph.
A ninja running at the speed of sound (Rock Lee) which is 768 mph, would run at 12,441.6 mph. Naruto, who runs at nearly the speed of light, which is 670,000,000mph runs at 10,854,000,000 mph.
If naruto used sage mode in normal gravity, he would be lifting 16.2 times normal!!!
203,280 x 16.2 = 3,293,136 tons. Again, like it or not, but if Naruto fought Goku, he is going to win. Sorry guys.
Took all the calcs from fairy tail dragon slayer, after testing them myself of course.
@tonking; Really? Even after all of that, you still think that someone like Nappa can step to Madara? Someone that Naruto has trouble with, even despite the fact that he moves faster than the speed of light, has lived on a planet that has 16.2x gravity than the earth, can create an attack that can destroy a f*cking solar system, will be explained in this one, is able to use natural energy in the form of Sage Mode to allow him to lift something that is over 3,630,000 times his own weight and has the f*cking kyuubi on top of that? Where the f*ck did you get the idea that Nappa is as strong as Madara? That is literally, without a doubt, impossible! I'm doing power levels this time. Along with Truth Seeking Balls, coz they are hax as f*ck.
Power Levels in the Dragon Ball series are extremely useful, allowing you to have a close estimate of your enemies' strength. This allows you to fight with a better chance to win. If their power level is close enough to your own. Remember what happened with Raditz and Goku the first time they met in DBZ? That's what'll happen if your power level is that much stronger than anyone else.
Now, just to make this simple, we're going to be using power levels in conjunction with chakra levels. Meaning that even if they are rather high, they usually don't mean sh*t if you aren't a trained ninja or warrior.
Here is the average power level of the average human. 5.
This is the power level of the average Naruto human. 80.
This is due to living under 16 times gravity for their whole life.
An above average human is double that.
DBZ human: 10
Naruto Human: 160
A high end human is...
DBZ human: 30
Naruto human: 480
...three times as strong as an above average human. See where I'm going here?
A genin is able to take on a group of humans with ease, and is around 5 times stronger than a high level human.
Avg Genin: 2400
There is no such thing as an average chunin, however, after extensive reading of manga and watching of anime, I can safely say that a chunin should be about 4 times stronger than a genin.
Chunin: 9,600. Take that Saiyan elites.
The average jounin will have around about 5 times the strength of a chunin. Therefore...
Average Jounin: 48,000. Still having problems?
Let's look at the 3rd Raikage. He had enough chakra and skill to outlast 10,000 jounin level ninja.
3rd Raikage: 480,000,000. Ther's still more.
Naruto made 1000 shadow clones at the start of the war. One of them was able to defeat the Raikage. Make note that a shadow clone would usually disperse after a single hit unless the punch is weak enough, so he did this without taking any damage. 1/1000 of Naruto equals more than 480,000,000.
Naruto base power level (start of war): 480,000,000,000. And it is actually more than that. This is without his power ups, no Sage mode, no Kyuubi chakra, nothing.
Naruto's base power continued to grow during the war, add in the 9 biju, half of the Sage of Six Paths chakra and sgae mode. Naruto is a f*ck mothering beast.
Just think about that and watch their be some idiot that says Naruto has power level of 1000. Prove me wrong.
Just to show you how OP a ninja is, if a ninja had a power level of 1. The third Raikage would have a power level of 10,000 and Naruto would have a power level of 10,000,000. Keep thinking.
Naruto destryed a dimension with a fraction of his chakra, whilst holding onto Hinata, and the blast was powerful enough to throw them out of the dimension and high into the sky. Naruto can destroy planets, he has the power to do it.In Shikamaru Hiden, a canon novel, Shikamaru notes that Madara and Obito, along with the Juubi could have destroyed the world. He doesn't even consider Naruto human anymore.
Finally, Truth Seeking Balls.
Literally, the most HAX ability to ever exist. They have the ability to destroy all matter when properly formed, can negate healing factors, can heal their user, can't even be touched by anything that isn't a sage technique, which means only a sage from the Naruto world could harm them.They negate immortality, so screw you Freiza, your wish won't do sh*t, are durable to take a Sage Art: Tailed Beast Ball directly and survive a full powered Night Elephant attack from Maito Gai. They grant immunity to the TSB power and can even be reformed by using the Creation of All Things. They can even form the legendary sword of Nunoboku, which is a strong as the user's will and easily destroys and creates worlds.They can create dimensions and can shield the user from techniques that are extremely OP, and can actually negate them if they aren't Sage Mode techniques. Basically, Naruto has them and nobody from DBZ can touch him. At all. The only limit they seem to have is a distance limit of up to 70 metres, which is still pretty far. And you know what else?
Naruto never goes all out, he only uses enough power to defeat the enemy, no more, no less. Beat that.
@lieren: Ok, dude! You don't have to drop the F-bomb so much! I just said that because Kishimoto (Is that his name by the way?) told that in a inteview or so I heard.... and another thing: you didn't count the SSGSS (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan) which is Goku new transformation as shown in the last movie "Resurrection of F".
Ps. Two more things: First of all, that 70 meters limit means that if an attack is thrown at 80 meters of distance, would the attack hit home or does that simply means that it won't negate all those things you said if you are 80 meters away from the user? Second: Who told you Goku doesn't only use the power he needs to defeat them? The problem with the enemies in DBZ is that they are so incredibly OP that Goku and the others usually have to use all (if not more) the energy they have to beat the bad guys.
Another thing(Yeah, there are three) you said that they can negate inmortality so the wish wouldn't work but what about a wish to negate that ability?
@tonking; Okay, sorry. I'm just so tired of people saying that someone like Madara would be taken down so easily. I mean, really? Nappa? But here's what I have managed to figure out so far.
First of all, I haven't seen that movie yet, so I can't work out the multiplier for that. Next, the 70 metres limit means that, yes, an attack used outside of that limit would work, however, once it enters the sphere of infuelnce, it will be negated.
Third, as far as I know, Goku always waits for his enemies to power up, so that they are at full power when he fights. Therefore, if he thinks that he needs to fight an enemy at full power, would it not make sense that Goku would fight with his full power against the enemy? Just think about that for a while.
Next, I have a question for you. Does the wish use a form of energy? I so, then the wish wouldn't work, as the TSB negate all energy aside from Sage Mode attacks, which is chakra mixed with Natural Energy.
So, yeah. The TSB are hax and there isn't really a way to beat them, if the wish uses a form of energy. The only possible way would be seen when Gai, Lee and Minato used all of their speed combined to dodge the things, which isn't even beating them, just "prolonging the inevitable."
@lieren: power levels? Really? You do realise that power levels mean less than nothing right? It was stated as much
@lieren: can't take your calcs seriously if you think base goku can only lift 10 tons
@midnightdragon18; First of all, that was a misunderstanding on my part and I admit to that. My understanding of the DBZ series isn't AS extensive as the Naruto series.
@dbzk1999 said:
@lieren: I wish people would stop using the 40 tons argument unless they actually know the context behind that scene
A) his base form is far above 10 tons (his fight with piccolo at the WMAT proves that)
B) he was trying to use bukijutsu with the weight (flying and being able to move in the air with it at the same time)
Sorry, it's just starting to become a bit of a peeve when I see people use that scene
Anyways, nice naruto calculation
However, surely after seeing what I have posted, you can see how badly Goku is outmatched. Naruto moves at the speed of light, above that in fact, as he is able to blitz people who can move at the speed of light and instantly teleport! If you are going to crisize my calculations, at least try to prove them wrong, instead of just saying that they are wrong outright. If you don't bring proof to the argument, then don't bother joining in.
@serpinethegreen; Yet they still say alot about a person's strength, do they not? They may eventually become completely worthless, but seeing a power level of that hieght must surely say something, right? Look, in the Baby Saga, Goku's power level is 1.5 billion. That is impressive. However, look at the calculated power level of Naruto. It is 480 billion at least. Goku's power level is at LEAST 0.003125 times less than Naruto's. No matter what you say, there is very little that can argue with that.
Another thing. Saiyans get a substantial boost of power when they are beaten close to death but survive. That boost obviously doesn't happen when they die. So, if Naruto kills Goku, but he is wished back with a dragon ball and immediately returns to fight, he will still be at the same power level. The thing is, even if Goku trained for his entire life, Naruto is also training. Theyare both advancing in strength, meaning that no matter how much Goku trains, he just can't win. Here is a quick look at Naruto's growth rate. And this is not going to be the final time I post. Whenever I find something that I find to wrong, then I am going to try and show what I believe to be right. It is a simple matter of what you choose to believe.
Let's start out with the Shadow Clone Jutsu. An A-rank forbidden technique. Naruto was able to learn it in a day and be able to create an army of the things.
Next, Tree Walking. Naruto has enourmous Chakra levels, giving him terrible control. Sasuke has reserves manyu times smaller than Naruto. They both finished the tree walking exercise at the same time. Naruto's growth rate is greater than that of Sasuke's, an apparent prodigy.
Water walking. Naruto's huge reserves and crappy control should have lead to him taking forever to learn such a thing. He mastered it in less than a day.
Summoning. It took Jiraiya decades to be able to summon toads like Gambunta. Naruto did it in less than a month.
It took Minato Namikaze 3 years to create the Rasengan. It took Jiraiya 3 months to learn from the creator of the jutsu. It took Naruto a week.
Wind chakra. It takes years for a jounin to learn and master an element, even if it is their own. Naruto mastered it in 2 days. 1 for the first step, 1 for the second.
Wind Style: Rasengan. Jiraiya, Minato and Kakashi couldn't add their element to the rasengan. Naruto did it in 2 days, creating the Rasenshuriken.
One more. Sage Mode. iraiya never mastered sage mode and he tried for more tha 40 years. Even Minato couldn't use it in combat. Naruto did it in 2 days at the age of 16, taking 1 day to learn how to feel natural energy with toad oil and without in that first day. The next day he managed to learn how to go into sage mode.
Do you see where this is going? And remember all of those things Naruto couldn't do because his chakra control wasn't good enough? He has perfect chakra control by the end of the manga, which allows him to use genjustu and Medical jutsu. Also, genjutsu does work on those without chakra.
Want proof?
Kaguya, the Rabbit Godess, remember her? She used a genjutsu on the entire population of the planet to stop war. This was before the Sage of Six Paths gave everyone chakra.
Also, remember the fact that she was faster than the speed of light and could teleport instantaneosly? Did you realise that Naruto was able to blitz her, meaning he went faster than her instantaneous teleportation? You know what that means people? It means that Naruto is faster than Goku's Instant Transmision. Come at me.
@lieren: I could care less about goku vs naruto
It's just a pet peeve when people use that 40 ton feat out of context
@lieren: actually that's a misconception instant transmission is just that instant
So he can go a billion miles in zero seconds
When he uses instant transmission he moves as fast as is possible like zoom
@serpinethegreen; That is my point. Naruto is actually faster than that. It is proved in the manga when Naruto out-speeds Kaguya, another person who can teleport instantaneously. Naruto has actually become that fast. Do you now see how outmatched Goku is?
@lieren: dude you can't be faster than instant transmission, he'd have to reverse time itself? And goku doesn't go at the speed of light, light takes time, something that is instant doesn't ergo he can't be faster? He can be as fast but not faster.
Thought it was old news Goku wins?
@serpinethegreen This is my point! I don't understand the mechanics behind it, but somehow, Naruto is able to move faster than someone teleporting instantaneously. Here:
"With her third eye, Kaguya is also able to instantaneously teleport herself and others around her."
This was taken from the official Naruto wiki, and is shown in the manga. Naruto is able to outspeed instantaneous travel. There is literally no way to beat that speed. If I had to guess on the mechanics, it would have to be some sort of superman-esque time travel speed, if you have read the superman comics. As in, Naruto runs so fast that he actually moves time back slightly when he moves. That is what I have managed to figure out.
Also @granitesoldier; That is literally ignorance of the highest form, if you cannot be bothered to go through the calculations yourself to prove that, then don't bother trying to argue. What I have done is read through how another person did this, tried the calculations myself, and, after making sure that I have conclusive proof, post these comments that have been thought out and carefully calculated. If you want proof that Naruto will win, look at all of the calculations that I have done. At least one of them would be enough to show how badly Goku is outmatched in this situation.
@ben836 This should be enough to prove that Naruto wins, simply look at my calculations.
@lieren: huh if thats the case narutos a broken charactwr
@serpinethegreen; Of that there is no doubt. You combine that with the TSB and you have a god in human form really. That isn't even taking into account his Uzumaki longevity, which means that he will likely age slower than almost anyone he knows. With that he is likely to survive for centuries. Just think of all the things he can do in those centuries. He can learn all of the things which were previously blocked to him because of poor chakra control. Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Iryojutsu and even chakra based forms of Taijutsu like the Jyuuken. He is pretty much unstoppable, and I haven't found an anime character yet that could beat him.
@lieren: what about that alucard guy je seems kind of ridiculously op, but your probably better asking the masses
@serpinethegreen; While Alucard is pretty hax, his abilities are negated by the TSB, therfore, no regen, no vampiric abilities, nothing. Literally screwed beyond all possible imagination.
@sinntek1; How about this for ridiculous damage, has Goku destroyed an entire dimension? If so, inform me because to my knowledge he hasn't and Naruto has. Basically, Superman is closer to beating Naruto, and Superman would only beat Goku because Goku only fights his opponents at full strength.
@lieren said:
@sinntek1; How about this for ridiculous damage, has Goku destroyed an entire dimension? If so, inform me because to my knowledge he hasn't and Naruto has. Basically, Superman is closer to beating Naruto, and Superman would only beat Goku because Goku only fights his opponents at full strength.
1. Goku will most likely do that in the new movie. (If people are stating correctly.)
2. Naruto is nowhere near beating Superman lol. Superman won that fight because of sun-light. That is it. Everyone mad about that battle needs to get over it. It was like a 6/10 Superman.
3. The problem I have with what is being said here is this : If Naruto was sooooooo strong he could blast a hole in a dimension, why didn't he hit Itachi, Madara, Akatsuki, you know any bad guys with that type of damage? Kishi the Troll fails you fans again :). (Btw, I personally love Naruto. It's just if he is so strong, then why wasn't he doing it in fights.)
@sinntek1 said:
@lieren said:
@sinntek1; How about this for ridiculous damage, has Goku destroyed an entire dimension? If so, inform me because to my knowledge he hasn't and Naruto has. Basically, Superman is closer to beating Naruto, and Superman would only beat Goku because Goku only fights his opponents at full strength.
1. Goku will most likely do that in the new movie. (If people are stating correctly.)
2. Naruto is nowhere near beating Superman lol. Superman won that fight because of sun-light. That is it. Everyone mad about that battle needs to get over it. It was like a 6/10 Superman.
3. The problem I have with what is being said here is this : If Naruto was sooooooo strong he could blast a hole in a dimension, why didn't he hit Itachi, Madara, Akatsuki, you know any bad guys with that type of damage? Kishi the Troll fails you fans again :). (Btw, I personally love Naruto. It's just if he is so strong, then why wasn't he doing it in fights.)
Okay, I've stated it once on this page before and I'm about to do it again. NARUTO HOLDS BACK IN EVERY FIGHT HE IS IN! He only fights with enough force to defeat his current opponent(s). That has been the case throughout all of the Naruto manga and anime. That is why he hasn't just blasted a hole in the universe, because he is powerful and he knows it, so he holds back! Do you want the stats on some of his attacks? Because I'll do that too.
@lieren said:
@sinntek1 Also, just to clarify. Naruto didn't just blast a hole into a dimension, He completely destroyed it. Gone. Dead. No more dimension for Kaguya. That kind of destruction. Also, can Goku breathe in space? Just want to know that one. Can't really remember.
Yes he can, well at least his dad could, so I'll just assume yes. He probably just didnt want to be floating in space due to vacuums, lack of gravity, no gravity, or worse.
@sinntek1 said:
@lieren said:
@sinntek1 Also, just to clarify. Naruto didn't just blast a hole into a dimension, He completely destroyed it. Gone. Dead. No more dimension for Kaguya. That kind of destruction. Also, can Goku breathe in space? Just want to know that one. Can't really remember.
Yes he can, well at least his dad could, so I'll just assume yes. He probably just didnt want to be floating in space due to vacuums, lack of gravity, no gravity, or worse.
Okay, sorry about that, but I found the answer right after I posted that and no they can't. Here's the quote.
"Saiyans can't breathe in space, and thats a fact. It has nothing to do with training, their lungs, or anything like that (well, it could be, but I doubt it). The "secret" is a saiyan, like Bardock for example since he was shown facing Frieza out in space, is only within the planet's upper atmosphere."
So yeah, no. Saiyans can't breath in space.
Just to add to the list though, Naruto can, apparently, as shown in Naruto: The Last.
Saiyans only fight in the high atmosphere of a planet, not in a vacuum.
@lieren: even more reason more me not to take your calcs seriously
Also scans of the manga or databook that says sage mode makes the user lift 3630,000 times their body
@lieren: I read them. I'm not convinced. For a few reasons. You said a few times that certain things are "hard to quantify" which means the raw data should be taken with a grain of salt. Also real world science and calculations rarely translate over well to fictional characters, especially higher tier characters who tend to be more inconsistent than lower tier ones. Mostly because writers do not write with the intent of the work being 'fact checked' for battle boards.
Next you operate under the assumption that all universes are created equal, which they are not. So saying a power level in one universe is higher than the power level in another and is therefore stronger is fallacious. For example: Shredder and Batman may very well be the most skilled fighters of their respective universes, that does not make them equal. Storm Shadow is not the most skilled fighter of his universe, but that does not mean he is less skilled than either Shredder or Batman.
Not to mention power levels are useless to prove anything as stated and proved in DBZ several times over.
I saw several statements that Goku can only lift 10 tons base, so I had to stop taking the rest seriously. Your strength and striking calls for Goku are wildly off.
Anyway believe what you like, I have friends very into Naruto and we've had the debates and Naruto is more powerful by far than I used to give him credit for, but I've never seen feats to convince me of a different out come.
Are you sure that the authors wrote the mangas expecting people to do these calculations? Do you think that all of the information you're using are carefully planted clues for you to discover something that a normal reader will never know unless they read the manga with a ruler and a calculator?
Honestly, your calculations are just extremely nerdy fanfiction that the authors would have a good laugh over.
@lieren: Nope! A fight between Allucard and Naruto can't be calculated. At the end of the Hellsing Manga Allucard powers let him control everything and anyone. If he were to fight Naruto he would be something like: "Your Truth Seeking Balls don't work" and poof! Naruto wouldn't be able to use them. Basically Allucard is so ridicuosly OP that he just needs to think something and it would happen... yes that OP.
And regarding the transformation..... how to explain it..... well, check this: it is the God transformation without any help and a SSJ4 transformation combined so it would be: 2 SSJ3, a SSJ2 and 2 SSJ1 (Only counting the God powers) and the SSJ4 which is 12 times a SSJ3. (You don't realy have to count the SSJ4, just count all the others powers twice)
And the dragon balls don't use energy, the dragon balls are just there.... there's no explanation of how they work.. the only place where they do use energy is in GT which isn't canon.
Also.... saiyans can breath in space only problem is that they need to use ki to do so. BTW Naruto ended, right? No more manga and all that Mumbo-jumbo?
Okay, once again I have to explain things that should be easily seen.
First of all, @granitesoldier; You are operating under the thought that I don't know that and am using our world standards to determine who would win in a fight. If what you said is true and we had to account for it, then there would be no point as there would be no true way to find out unless they decide to do a crossover novel or something along those lines, making everything everyone has said on this page pointless. I also admitted to the fact that I got the 10 tons thing wrong, please read all of the thread before you try to pick on someone for a mistake they admitted to.
@tonking; Does thinking use energy? Yes, it does, therefore it can be negated like all the other crap that would be chucked at Naruto. Also, regarding the transformation, your own comment usurps this, as you state that GT isn't canon, therefore, neither is SS4. Another thing. If there is no explanation to how they work, how do you know that they don't use energy? Think before you type.
One last thing, Saiyans can breathe in space using Ki, so not naturally, just by enhancing their body with energy. Please tell me you are noticing the problem with that.
@lieren: Ok then, I was just trying to give an example of how much it increases the user strength since it is "hard to quantify" BUT if we're taking into account what is canon and what isn't then we should erase that Naruto can breath in space since the movies are not canon.
And about the dragon balls.... I actually found the answer after looking for a while: there is an explanation to how they work but it isn't stated that they use energy so I think it is safe to say that they don't.
Also... you state that even if Goku trained he wouldn't be able to beat Naruto but you didn't took into account the Hiperbolic Time Chamber (Before People come saying that the door was destroyed remember that there are dragon balls) basically the only wish they would need is eternal youth (it isn't the same as inmortality so it can't be negated) and a week to train with at least Gohan and it would be the same as seven years and before anyone says that if you stay over 2 days there the door will disappear remember that Goku has instant transmission... the point is: give Goku 1 month max and he will have trained for 30 years which I suppose is enough time for some improvement, don't you think?
@tonking; Again, I'm sorry to say that is incorrect. Naruto: The Last was confirmed as canon by Masashi Kishimoto, therefore, any abilities Naruto has in the movie, they are also canon. Another thing that you are forgetting is shadow clones. No matter how many days Goku spends in the hyperbolic time chamber, Naruto can match that training with shadow clones, due to their ability to pass their memories back to the original.
"Another concept introduced was the existence of negative energy in Dragon Balls. This problem was first mentioned by Old Kai in Dragon Ball Z. According to the series, whenever a wish is made on the Dragon Balls, an equal amount of negative energy is created alongside the beneficial, wish granting energy."
This quote from the wiki states that there is energy in the dragon balls. This means that it is possible to negate these wishes.
@lieren said:
@tonking; "Another concept introduced was the existence of negative energy in Dragon Balls. This problem was first mentioned by Old Kai in Dragon Ball Z. According to the series, whenever a wish is made on the Dragon Balls, an equal amount of negative energy is created alongside the beneficial, wish granting energy."
This quote from the wiki states that there is energy in the dragon balls. This means that it is possible to negate these wishes.
Very good but remember that wikis usually have mistakes and this one is an example.... I just rewatched the episode (In the original version not Kai since it usually cuts stuff) and while he states that they shouldn' overuse the dragon balls he doesn't mentions that they use energy so that's not accurate.
About the shadow clones.... I really don't understand what you are saying.... would you care to explain at little better?
@tonking; Shadow clones are pretty much the ultimate infiltration jutsu. When the jutsu is used, it creates a clone that is easy to disperse, usually in a hit or two. However, their true use comes from the ability to pass their memories back to the jutsu user, allowing for information to be retained. This can be used as a training method, though not for anything physical.
By using the clones, you can learn jutsu, chakra control and anything that can be mentally learned. There is also the possibility of Taijutsu being learnable through the clones as we are not completely sure of muscle memory. Shadow clones also transfer their chakra, nature energy and fatigue back to the user of the jutsu, meaning it can either tire out the user, or rejuvinate them.
As for the wiki being wrong, this is something I am more than sure is true. "Shenron can bestow any wish as long as it does not exceed the power of his creator."
This must surely imply that he uses his creator's energy, or at least a form of energy equal to his creator's.
@lieren: Very good. I don't think we can reach an agreement about the dragon balls... but I do have one question though: When most people here tell you that your calculations here about Goku's limit are wrong you admit that you were but I haven't seen you trying to fix it.... if you want I can give you help you start.
Take for an example the katchin steel which is supposed to be the hardest metal in the world, Base Goku lifted a piece that is stated to weight at least 1000 tons and didn't even flinch. Also I have been checking older posts (Since I didn't had anything to do) and you state that Naruto has lived under 16 times the gravity of earth but I just saw an interview made to Kishimoto and when asked about the world of Naruto there isn't anything stated about its gravity, would you care to explain me how are you sure of that fact?
You also stated that no one in the story of DBZ could ever think about beating Naruto..... Will you hold onto that statement?
@tonking; I'll be honest here, I can't find a conclusive limit for Goku's strength. I have found many different numbers ranging from 40 tons to 400 tons to 1000 tons, however, if you wish, I will calculate the 400 and 1000 tons, as I have already done 40.
400 Tons base Goku:
SS1: Multiplier - 50 = 20,000 tons
SS2: Multiplier - 100 = 40,000 tons
SS3: Multiplier - 400 (rumor) = 160,000 tons
1000 Tons base Goku:
SS1: 50,000 tons
SS2: 100,000 tons
SS3: 400,000 tons
There you go, this is the same basic calculations that I did before.
Do you remember what Naruto can do when he is in Sage Mode?
3,293,136 tons.
I'm sorry, but unless you can direct me to a site with conclusive proof of Goku's base strength, which says that his base is around 500,000 tons or something like that, he can't beat Naruto.
Next, the interview with Kishimoto and how I am so sure that the Narutoverse's gravity is 16.2 times the gravity of Earth's. The answer is simple calculation. Gravity works on the size and density of a planet, the denser or bigger (or both) the planet is, the higher the level of gravity. There is nothing so far proving that the Naruto world is denser than ours, however I have conclusively proven that it is bigger. Therefore, unless the Naruto world is actually less dense than Earth, then I can say that, without any exceptions, that the Naruto world has stronger gravity than ours.
No one in DBZ being able to defeat Naruto? It is pretty much an indisputable fact. There are, however, other characters in Naruto that Goku can definitely defeat, such as all of the civilians(just wanted to put that one out there), Ino, Shikamaru and several other ninja. In fact, I would say that anyone lower than Jounin rank would have a fair amount of trouble with Goku, but that is just speculation.
@lieren said:
@tonking; No one in DBZ being able to defeat Naruto? It is pretty much an indisputable fact. There are, however, other characters in Naruto that Goku can definitely defeat, such as all of the civilians(just wanted to put that one out there), Ino, Shikamaru and several other ninja. In fact, I would say that anyone lower than Jounin rank would have a fair amount of trouble with Goku, but that is just speculation.
Oh, I beg to differ.... Whis is stated to be the strongest person in the whole series (Regardless of what Toriyama might say, that guy could even forget his own name) an has the ability to travel through time. Exactly! He can go wherever he wants whenever he wants.... All it would take would be for him to travel.... (How old is Naruto, by the way?) let's say 15 years, at that time Naruto was a child. All it would take would be a well-suited punch and BOOM! Game Over for Naruto.
About the limit for Goku.... I'll have to agree with you, my eyes hurt after reading through so much shit that isn't even right!
@tonking; I just did some major research, and when it comes to Whis' time travel, it's kind of a dead end. From what I could find, going through several different sites, I found that Whis' range on time travel is only about 3-15 mins, based on what I found on numerous sites. Another thing is that, by the end of the series, Naruto could be anywhere from 22 to 34 depending on the calculations you use.
I'll be honest, yes Whis' is possible the strongest character, IS actually, no exceptions from what I could find. However, is he canon? I couldn't find a definitive answer. Due to its status as a movie, no matter whether a large amount of it was made from input by Toriyama, I am not going to consider it cano0n unless you can point me toward evidence that it is canon. The thing is, you actually can't use Toriyama as a reference pint anymore, as you have actually stated, while slightly exaggerating, that he could forget his own name, leading me to the conclusion that any information from him is unreliable at best. Therefore, please find something that is conclusively proven by somebody else.
And yes, the whole base Goku strength thing just doesn't want to be found, so it could be any of the previous posts. Either way, I believe we can conclude that Naruto WILL, without a doubt, defeat Goku in a fight.
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