Finished Code Geass

Finished Code Geass and was curious what everyone else thought of Lelouch. Would you class him more as a hero or a villain?

Also what did you think of the anime as a whole?

Lelouch is in the same camp as Deathstroke as far as morality goes.

My favorite anime.

I never thought of him as a villain. And CG is third in my top five anime.

He dwells in a gray area an Its good all around but its no cowboy bebop

Anti hero

Bad deeds

Good intentions

Legend of the Galactic Heroes >

He is always been on the gray area. It was a great run for a series, I'm still waiting for Boku no Akito ep 3

@killerravens: Watched Cowboy Bebop wasn't too impressed. Didn't really have many stories that carried on more one off stories.

Did find him very heroic until his villainous deeds actually started at the end of the second season.

So it's basically Anime version of V for Vendetta. As much as Britannia is a warmongering empire, the villain are still people too (at least decent ones).

Well when I watched V for Vendetta there was more clear lines of good and bad. V was the hero saving the people form the evil government.

i'd put him as an anti-hero

He was ultimately painted as more of a hero, but that was because the world was simply ruled by even worse people at the time.

Well when I was watching it a lot of characters was moaning at Zero's strategies about how he got things done and I was really just looking like whats wrong with out maneuvering your enemies when your at war?

cries of the losers.

@kyrees: Yea people died but it was war.

I loved Code Geass, finished it late last year. Would recommend to everyone. Am re-watching with a friend now and then, because its fun seeing another person experience it for the first time.

As for Lelouch, I never saw him as a hero or villain. Then again I don't tend to view things in terms of heroes or villains, personally I think its better to classify actions, behavior or intent as villainous or heroic, with individuals capable of either. That and the protagonist and antagonist arrangement. Like Lelouch was clearly the protagonist of Code Geass, the Emperor/Empire as the overriding antagonist (and some other minor antagonists along the way too.

Lelouch had noble, sympathetic and honorable intentions and ideology, the world state he existed in though had a set of ideologies and rules that invariably meant conflict was due, and this is common, in fiction and even reality. There is often conflict and competition between people, ideas, ideologies and between what is and what could be, according to individuals, groups, entities. The thing that made Code Geass exciting, is that Lelouch was quite gifted intellectually and mentally, as well as just generally competent. That and he was given a very powerful ability, as well as timing giving him access to followers and advanced technology. As an individual he had the rare means to force change, in a very potent, violent and forceful way, against society and its people. As opposed to say a slow and peaceful way, which is another way societies can change. Both approaches have different positives/negatives, or advantages and disadvantages.

The general world state in Code Geass was a fractured one, many individuals were unhappy with there current state and position, others were content, pacified, placated, some would be in the middle somewhere, some would go back and forth… its a set up that means that for every action Lelouch made against the Empire, some would see his actions as revolutionary, and heroic, where as others would potentially see them as evil, villainous and the act of a terrorist. So its a perspective thing. Its not necessary that there is a right or wrong way… more so many individuals and groups ideas of what the best way really is, and what actually constitutes the best… so you have characters like Suzaku Kururugi whose idea about what the best way forward were quite different to Lelouch's, you also have many of the students who seemed unsure, maybe apathetic. Things also get blurry when you take into account character behaviors and personalities in every day living, interactions, in a more mundane sense away from the ideologies or concepts they hold when they are at their best or most devoted or single minded… peoples personalities and idiosyncrasies can color and warp individuals perceptions, self awareness and ultimately how they go about accomplishing their goals. Suzaku Kururugi whilst sympathetic, strong willed, and having other heroic traits and qualities, was also wracked with guilt and doubt which he often fought through sometimes making him stubborn, not a good combination with naiveness or well… he was a bit simple-minded, well, compared to Lelouch. I found him a tad emotional as well. Even though their motives and desired outcomes were similar, their approaches, ideologies, and reasons, and personalities made them clash.

Lelouch himself was naive in his own way as well, and also guilty of being a bit selfish, lazy, and apathetic, but in the self defense mechanism sort of way. Probably as the result of his intelligence and pride. A way to hide his emotions from friends and the world. When he got the power to actually influence change, he started to get a bit overwhelmed and swept up, make mistakes, and whilst he was incredibly intelligent, he was and is still young. He also fell into the trap of forgetting that other people aren't as logical or calculating as he is, so often his good intentions and plans, resulted in bad consequences, for itself and loved ones, and he also took failure hard as well. So we could say he lacked a certain wisdom in his youth. His character arc though, basically was him becoming more wise, and guile, and so his final victory, I find/found, very heroic, intelligent, and well executed. Completing his character arc, and bringing his role as a protagonist to a close.

@jedixman: Might enjoy this topic too, and give a great answer. He is quite deep and interesting with his understanding and analysis of Code Geass.

@sc: You raise a couple of great points until the very end of the anime I didn't consider any action of his villainous at all, but even those had an end game for the "greater good". Certainly my second favorite anime after Death Note.

@guru_crack said:

Yeah neither did I. He definitely made some mistakes, and some of his actions were risky and they came with loss, and was it worth it? We'll that where things get debatable and more complex. Like - important big spoiler - like if Princess Euphemia lived? If Suzaku joined Lelouch earlier? Could things have resolved faster with less overall death? Plus its been ages since I watched the show, but doesn't the Empire basically exterminate a whole entire era of Area 11 for a relatively trivial reason, and Lelouch witnesses that first hand? In many ways Lelouch is like if Punisher was really intelligent and capable of manipulating and employing strategy on bigger scales. He has witnessed horrifying acts, and understands he must make certain sacrifices, not just of a personal nature, but sacrificing well pawns basically to win the game. Actually I could have just made a more concise point by bringing up the games use of Chess. Yes in real life its a bit sad looking at actual people as pawns, but when your pawns are already being wiped out, it might be better to try and win the game. So as you say, the greater good.

Heh heh funnily enough Death Note is my favorite anime with Code Geass as my second. They are also what I recommend to people trying to get into anime for the first time.

@sc: I never recommend Death note or Code Geass as a lot of people when they get into anime just want action packed stuff with little to no plot as seen online by the massive fan bases or Naruto, one Piece, Bleach & DBZ ect...

After finishing it yesterday (took me 3 days) I was surprised about the amount of people complained about him sacrificing lives of others except at every turn he was always trying to save as many lives as possible even going into places by himself to rescue large numbers of his own black knights and also making himself look like a villain to save someone life. Did love Lelouch as a character.

Glad Punisher isn't like Lelouch as a lot of my favorite Marvel Villains would end up being killed.

@guru_crack: I think a lot of people may misinterpret Lelouch because of how cold, distant and confident he is, calculating so on. I think its a mistake to conclude he doesn't care or doesn't have nobility, fairness or kindness though, so I am surprised to see similar sentiment that you were surprised to see. I like comparing Lelouch to Light for Death Note, because with that comparison, Lelouch can be seen as a lot more… adjusted perhaps. I am trying to think of the right word. Both Light and Lelouch have a lot of similarities to me, but where as Lelouch seems to hold freedom as an ideal, people who choose their own path, Light seems obsessives with power and imposing authority over others as a means to control, and also vengeance on others. Both are extremely intelligent and tactical, burt lacking a certain amount of wisdom that comes from age.

@sc: yea I find the 2 characters comparable and in fact both are 2 of my favorite characters although Light in the anime went to far and crossed over to the villain imo whereas Lelouch doesn't do that until the end of the anime where he gives up his own life so everyone else can have paradise.

@guru_crack: that's the point there are some interconnected stories tho like the confrontation between spike an vicious an fais memory and Edward an her father

@killerravens: There are a few, personally I didn't hate the anime it was ok. But episodes really did vary from being good, boring and damn right stupid some times. That fridge goo episode was just what the hell am i watching here?

@guru_crack: hey that's a life lesson never leave stuff in the fridge for to long

@killerravens: Haha or skip stupid episodes of anime.

@guru_crack: true but I would say they got more hits then misses

@killerravens: Thats the only terrible episode I can remember having from bebop pretty sure the last 2 episodes were great and can't remember the rest which makes me believe it was average and forgettable 2bh.

Lelouch goes through some changes. R1 Lelouch, however, had a very singular goal.

First of all, with or without Geass, he was going to attack Britannia. He says at one point that he intended to wait until he was a bit older, but the powers allowed him to go ahead of schedule. His reasons? He had 3:

1. Find out who killed his mother
2. Vengeance on his father for leaving his sister and him for dead in Japan / attacking Japan in the first place with them there.
3. Give his sister a better life, where she wouldn't be fearing for her life and she could be comfortable.

Lelouch never, not once, cared about Japan. It was a lie; they were a means to an end. He used the Black Knights as tools.

Now, a turning point was when Nunnally "turned on him," when she chose Suzaku over Zero. This devastated Lelouch, who lost one of his motivations. But he still remained and continued on his goals, rather than give up. He was still intent on saving Nunnally, and beating his father. After destroying the Geass Order - and V.V. who was his mother's killer - and gaining Jeremiah as an ally, his army had finally reached a level where he could challenge his father effectively. He was even betrayed by his people, but still didn't stop. He became Emperor because, while in C's World, he could see the bigger picture. He had the opportunity to bring peace to the world... and penance for his actions, after accomplishing his goals. He wasn't a hypocrite: he lived by his own code - the only people who should kill are those who aren't afraid to die. Lelouch was the wartime Zero, and Suzaku was the peacetime Zero. Lelouch died for his penance, and Suzaku was forced to live for his penance.

The question is, was Lelouch selfless or selfish? This isn't the same as good or evil. He was selfless the entire time, because his motivations were always for Nunnally. He died to give Nunnally a world where she would be safe - and, as Empress of Britannia during a golden age of peace, he did it. Lelouch wasn't meant to reign in peace time. His ends justified the means, and his means were arguably evil. Kill a million, save a billion, I suppose (and I would say that millions died as a result of his actions). Lelouch mirrors Ozymandias.

I loved it, but it got real dumb from the Chinese arc all the way till Rolo's death. Afterwards it was good again

@guru_crack: Pierrot Le Fou,Cowboy Funk,Black Dog Serenade,Jupiter Jazz, Ganymede Elegy,Jamming WithEdward, Heavy Metal Queen,Ballad of Fallen Angels,Gateway Shuffle,Honky Tonk Women,StrayDogStrut, AsteroidBlues, Waltz for Venus, all tremendous episodes

I partially agree. I didn't like the Chinese arc, but I love the Geass Hunt arc. It starts with the end of Episode 12 to episode 15. It's when Shirley dies, Jeremiah changes sides, and Lelouch slaughters the people at the Geass order.

@jedixman: I do agree that he didn't care about Japan at all but he did set them on a course that ultimately benefited the rebel group of the Black Knights and he did his best to save their lives whenever possible so I would say used is a bit harsh.

It benefited the group because making the group more powerful gave Lelouch a better army. Saving the lives of assets is part of the job. When the Black Knights betrayed him, it was the loss of assets that hurt him, not the loss of friends. He was in a bad state because he thought Nunnally was dead and he lost his army - everything he had built up. Not long after Rolo's death, Lelouch picked himself back up and single handedly gathered up and brainwashed some forces to aid him against Charles. Once they betrayed him, their usefulness had ended. The Black Knights joined Schneizel in the end; he and his forces killed Black Knights and Schneizel's Britannian alike.

If any of them, including Kallen, died in the final battle, it wouldn't have changed anything. Lelouch didn't do anything for them that didn't aid him in some way. He didn't personally care about any of the Black Knights. They were a means to an end.

@guru_crack: I mean the comic. In the comic, V was ambiguous and a madman while the fascist government (shown as people rather than political caricature) is the last vestige of civilization in post-apocalyptic world and the ending implied that the destruction of government made things worse (criminal warlords rising up, looting, and possible end of humanity). On the other hand, they are still bad people (chancellor jerked off to a computer--as in computer itself rather than its content-- and worshipped it as god, genocide, death camp that created V into who he is, rapist police, food shortages, infighting that would slowly destroy the government, etc) and V look sympathetic by comparison (he wanted vengeance ONLY).

@t209: Well not going to lie I did start reading the Graphic Novel but it was so similar to the film in every way i dropped it, sold it and watched the film again isntead so can't compare comic V to the Film V. @jedixman: Would disagree when Kallen was protecting him when the Knights turned on him he saved her life but what he assumed would be the death of himself.

Shame, then, because the graphic novel has many differences. The film did not show Evey become V. The graphic novel is far superior to the film.

Because he was suicidal. He was willing to die then because he had already lost what mattered most to him - Nunnally. He wanted to die, he didn't want Kallen or Rolo or anybody to save him. It was an excuse. When Rolo saved him, he told Rolo not to. After Rolo's sacrifice, Lelouch returned to his own mindset, and was willing to continue his work.

During the final battle, Kallen would have died if Gino did not save her. Kallen and Suzaku effectively had a stalemate. If Kallen had died, that wouldn't have changed anything - just another body on the pile.

The V for Vendetta comparison works.

Lelouch is the Zero / V of vengeance and destruction; Suzaku is the V / Zero of reconstruction and hope.

Code Geass reminded me a lot of how I liked Gundam Seed. Both shows had an overly feminized theme with emotional characters meant to grab viewer's attention and a lot of hooks which were tied up poorly. I was addicted to the show while I was watching it but have no intrest in seeing it again.

The series is ok, I like parts and others I didn't. And Lelouch is the typical revolutionary, like Zorro or Count of Monte Cristo or V. A morally ambiguous dude who does whatever it takes to win his cause.

@the_stegman: I like V & Lelouch not a massive fan of Zorro @ninjawarrior268:It was probably the second best anime I have watched.

I watched the whole series completely, read virtually every blog I managed to find online and even read the founders interviews and their quotations from the media. Its been over 7 years as this anime ended but the end is still a fairly much popular topic among lovers.

Primarily I shall mention that I did read the author Ichiro Okouchi's interview in Continue magazine, and continued to discuss the matter at the most renowned Code Geass fan forum, http://codegeassforum.com/. They said that Lelouch's narrative has finished with a complete stop while other character's tales will nonetheless continue. In addition, he mentioned that, he understood that people believed the end to be awful, because - Schneizel who murdered countless people in the britannian funding utilizing the weapon damocles lived while Lelouch's life has been proven to finish. In addition, he said "I believe everyone felt exactly the same as it arrived at the close of the personality that's Lelouch". The magazine also included an inventory of all of the deceased folks in the anime show that also had the title Lelouch vi Britannia. The conclusion may be that a new season is not completely out of the question.

I loved CG . . .the entity of Season 1 and parts of season 2. To be specific, shit gets real stupid after episode 6 and stays pretty stupid until like episode 19. In this drought of quality there snippets here in there reminding me why I liked the show, but man, like a stripper with a charliehorse, it fell off.