Emma and Scott.... You crazy kids! I love you! You tell 'em!

@lykopis: Bravo lyko for actually bringing something new to this thread. I could not agree more with those points and there are some fascinating new insights in there too. This post of yours is far from a rehash of the old arguments as you put earlier. So much approval could be given that wouldn't describe how much I agree with you.

@FadeToBlackBolt: Sorry Fade but I could not disagree more

1. Well I agree with this actually

2. How exactly? Tony's made reparations since Civil War and Cap was partially in the right mind for the stupid AvX debacle.

3. Such as? Explain this to me because Cyclops' kill squad, superiority complex and acting like a douchebag are at the forfront of bad things that Scott has done.

4. I'm sure he's killed a few other people but it's his new Magneto personality which I'm not liking. I won't be surprised if he kills someone soon non possessed.

5. When was he not trialled? Just because they didn't show it doesn't mean he wasn't. This defence for Scott is getting weak because he's done plenty, plenty of terrible things.

6. I can't think of anything to say to this so moving on...

7. Possessed, went power crazy as lyko said. But at least she's shown in subsequent appearances she's sorry for what she did, even if she was controlled.

8. Cyclops is Satan because he went drunk on power and decided the P5 should rule the world and sling the Avengers into limbo. Yeah he's kind of Satan.

9. Don't know about this uni so..

10. Well being on the battle forums and knowing much about Superman's feats is pretty telling enough for me.

So in conclusion, I think there are substantial reasons for not liking Cyclops and strong grounds for disputing his actions. It may be poor writing but in the end, that has ruined the character and made him my all time least favourite comic character. There's nothing I like about him and everything I vehemently dislike. I knew this thread would turn into a "Was Cyclops right?" one.

@Lvenger:

1. Because it's correct :P
2. Reparations for embezzling the US government for financing his own personal arsenal, letting his good friend's aunt get shot because he changed his political views, raping your friend's genetic code to create a mind-controlled clone, spreading misinformation that your other friend is actually alive in order to capture his compatriots, placed people who disagreed with him in an extra-dimensional prison without trial. What reparations did he pay? Oh, he felt bad for an arc and then got a power-upgrade. Classy. Captain America decides to invade foreign soil and demand a citizen without even requesting an extradiction treaty. Instead, he shows up with an army of super-powered guns and says "we're taking her". But HE'S THE GOOD GUY, DUR, SO IT'S OK.
3. See Above
4. So we should judge someone based on the possibility that maybe they'll kill someone? Sounds about right. It's not like Iron Man, Wolverine, the Punisher, Rulk, Hawkeye, Cap have killed anyone. Oh wait...
5. Most trials don't last ten minutes. Sliding timescale or not, it makes no sense. He either wasn't tried, or he was completely rail-roaded.
6. Again, it's correct
7. Oh OK, so it's fine to murder billions if you're power crazy, but you feel bad about it later, but if you kill a guy who let children die and erased their histories, while possessed, you're evil?
8. God forbid someone try to cure world hunger instead of just punching each other.
9. Charles Whitman shot the Uni up and killed himself. He knew there was something wrong with him and asked that scientists investigate his brain to search for abnormalities so it could be avoided in the future. Unlike Jean Grey, he didn't have a school named after him and wasn't treated like a saint.

Don't blame the character, blame the fact Marvel has as much respect for your intelligence as they have for the mentally ill community (that is to say, none). If you say that Cyclops is your least favourite character, you're just lending credence to this ridiculous writing and disgraceful plot-line. Cyclops (and Hank Pym) are the only characters who get deimonised when they're victims of poor writing. It's just pathetic that people can't be aware enough to say "this is crap, and I'm not buying into it"

Was Cyclops right? Of course f*cking not. He was lucky that it turned out the Cosmic Demon Firebird just happened to have a weakness to Plot Devices named Hope and Wanda. The issue isn't about his actions, it's the fact that he's not written in character, and yet, he's the only one who gets blamed for things. Maybe if he was played by Robert Downey Jr he might get more leeway. But nah, he's psychotic. He has to be, he's not a "badass".

@FadeToBlackBolt:

2. In the whole context of the situation, with a cosmic entity heading for Earth with the potential to easily destroy it, there's little time to think about foreign soil since if the PF blew up the planet, there wouldn't be any foreign soil to argue over.

3. Yes I know, terrible actions to be sure. But cheating on 2 wives, creating a death squad to illegally take out targets, encouraging mutant children to kill and other crimes does much to balance things out.

4. Cyclops' position is becoming too much of an extremist. Before you know it, he'll have mutants strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up targers for the mutant cause. He's becoming as bad as terrorism is today.

5. Perhaps he was held in prison to be tried later? It's not exactly uncommon. And his crimes are highly public so it's not like too much evidence digging is required to convict him.

7. I feel the same way about Scarlet Witch Fade so I don't fall prey to that fallacy. She has tried to make amends for her crimes at least but she's being let off too easy.

8.God forbid someone invade Wakanda with an army and cosmic phoenix powers causing much destruction and suffering. Or throw superheroes in limbo without trial. The P5 really went off their rocker being possessed by the PF which isn't uncommon in Phoenix hosts.

9. Yeesh what a terrible story.

Look it may be the writing but I can't avoid the fact that Marvel has ruined Scott Summers and written him sorely out of character for many, many years. Sorry Fade but the ridiculous writing and disgraceful plot lines has ruined Cyclops plenty for me. I can't support the character anymore, I can't justify his decisions in my eyes and I can't get over his behaviour. I don't buy into what Marvel are doing to him but for now it's enough for me to dislike the character immensely. He exhibits traits and decisions I don't approve of in a character let alone a real human being.

@Lvenger:

2. Ah, but we do have time to devote resources to attacking the X-Men rather than try to work with them in open-communication.

3. He didn't cheat on either wife. He had a "psychic affair", which is akin to thinking about sleeping with someone while they think about sleeping with you, and left his other wife in order to visit (not reconcile with, visit) his now returned from the dead, formerly psychotic ex. And creating a death squad is so much worse than having Hawkeye off people how? Not to mention the "death squad" only killed vampires, zombies and robots. Oh the humanity!

4. Again, this is just sh*t writing. And don't fret anyway, he'll be dead soon.

5. Held in prison to be tried later is fine, but why aren't Wolverine, Punisher, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, Iron Man, Cap, etc.. being imprisoned to await trial too? Oh, because they're popular.

7. Scarlet Witch committed genocide and didn't feel bad about it, and got a happy ending. The reason she got off is because she's female. Welcome to the MU, where being a woman means you lack the cognitive function to be responsible for your own actions.

8. Oh yeah, that was all Cyclops. Wait, no... That was Namor. Who didn't get arrested and is now on New Avengers. I'm waiting for Marvel to correct this hypocrisy, nope, will never happen.

9. Apt analogy though.

I'm the first person to stand up and say that the guy wearing a Judge Dredd costume and calling himself Cyclops is not Scott Summers, but I refuse to blame the character, because it's not him. Tony Stark has always been a fascist prick, so his actions in Civil War made sense. Cyclops has been shown to be utterly psychotic despite it flying in the face of everything the character stands for. It is a f*cking insult to Cyclops, it is an insult to his true fans who have sat by for decades while he was pushed to the side, and bagged out for being "boring", but who would stay with him nonetheless. Marvel have pissed all over Scott Summers, they've pissed all over his fans, and the f*cking readership is too chicken sh*t to stop buying this crap and acknowledge the fact that Marvel have done something wrong by employing these utterly incompetent, egotistical philistines to write characters with more depth than the writers could ever f*cking hope to grasp.

Good God I'm pissed off. Not at you, mate. At the whole f*cking thing. .

*grabs popcorn* am I too late for the show?

*grabs popcorn* am I too late for the show?

@Timandm said:

1: Cap, we're in Australia. You, the Avenges, and SHIELD have no legal authority here. What you're doing is illegal... Like when you illegally invaded Utopia...

2: Do you have a warrant? Charles Xavier died on Utopia... Did you get a warrant from the courts of Utopia to have me arrested?

Just a couple nitpicky things on my part:

1. The Avengers are not just an American team, they're authorized to operate in any nation affiliated with the United Nations. Same with SHIELD, for some reason in recent years there has been a shift towards SHIELD being an American agency instead of an international peacekeeping agency again authorized by the United Nations.

2. I don't think Utopia ever really was recognized as a sovereign nation.

@Timandm said:

1: Cap, we're in Australia. You, the Avenges, and SHIELD have no legal authority here. What you're doing is illegal... Like when you illegally invaded Utopia...

2: Do you have a warrant? Charles Xavier died on Utopia... Did you get a warrant from the courts of Utopia to have me arrested?

Just a couple nitpicky things on my part:

1. The Avengers are not just an American team, they're authorized to operate in any nation affiliated with the United Nations. Same with SHIELD, for some reason in recent years there has been a shift towards SHIELD being an American agency instead of an international peacekeeping agency again authorized by the United Nations.

2. I don't think Utopia ever really was recognized as a sovereign nation.

@FadeToBlackBolt:

2. Yeah bringing the team to the front door was stupid I won't deny that. It was an instigator for the creative team to needlessly start the war. But having said that it can be argued it was a last resort tactic in case the X-Men didn't cooperate. Which of course had to happen instead of a reasonable discussion between Cap and Cyclops.

3. He left one wife and her child in a bad state to be with Jean practically the moment she was resurrected. And whilst that's not too shabby an argument for the psychic affair, it's not helped by the fact that said wife is also telepathic and could have peeked in on the affair sooner. So it doesn't really work when the wife can find about it much like real life cheating can be discovered. It wasn't dreaming either, there were mental processes involved with the whole mind linking thing. I'm sure X-Force killed a few people. There were countless covers of Wolverine and Domino passionately kissing with lots of blood around them. Surely there were mutant threats that needed to be offed? I'm sure these guys weren't the Justice League Elite!

4. Yeah that's the danger of what Marvel plan to do. You hear the rumour that Wolverine might be killed in 2014?

5. Punisher hasn't been properly caught yet, Mockingbird I don't know what she's done wrong, Cap I don't see why he needs to be trialled and the rest are complicated. At least within the context of the 616 universe.

7. Paha it's sad that you're right about this. But unfortunately it's the blunt truth of female heroines in the MU.

8. He still let the Avengers get put in limbo without trial. I don't see why he gets to complain about not getting trialled when he threw that out the window when he was possessed be the PF. I'm gonna be reading New Avengers soon but I'm not sure how I'll feel about this. Pretty sure the sovreign card can be played. It's why Doom gets away with everything he does wrong. Anyway it was Emma who egged Namor on and snogged him too so that's fitting with what this blog is about ie Scott and Emma.

I know but still I guess I should apologise for getting you so mad. I agree it's not the character's fault but what the Marvel writers, editors and executives have done to him means liking the character is very hard to do. It probably is because people thought he was boring that they did this to him. A shame, it'd be like making Superman take over the world and establish a totalitarian regime (cough Injustice: Gods Among Us cough) Thankfully that's an Elseworlds story and the same can't be said for Cyclops. I'm not an X-Men fan nowadays and Bendis on the series means that a combination of 2 things I don't like makes for an easy option to stay away from.

@Timandm said:

Your responses are anything but boring! Wrong, stupid, ignorant, and trite CERTAINLY, but not boring.... LOLOL!!! I'm just playing! Put down the keyboard. No one has to get hurt here...

The line... it's behind you...

@Lvenger:

2. Exactly right. But you see the difference in how you view it. It's not your fault, it's the way the event was structured, but we say that the Avengers showing up on the front door was stupid and out of character, but Cyclops going off his nut is A-OK.

3. Those Domino and Wolverine issues were a spin-off that was only the two of them on a personal vendetta, so you proved my point even more there about why other X-Men aren't being arrested and demonised lol. As for the Jean thing, she was a terrible wife anyway. She would read his mind and chastise him on reflex actions. He was being mentally affected by Psylocke, and Jean was too pre-disposed on reading his mind in the middle of shopping centres to check him for psychic manipulation. Charming lass, that Jean. No excuse for the Maddie thing though. That was just a dick move amongst dick moves.

4. Heard it. Would love it. Doubt it will happen as promised. They'll just rip off Return of Bruce Wayne like they did with Cap: Reborn.

5. Mockingbird killed the man who mind-controlled her into sleeping with him and almost-marrying him. Totally justified murder, but she was just chastised by her husband (leading to a divorce), she wasn't arrested or anything.

8. The Avengers do the same thing, but it's forgotten virtually instantly. The fact is there is a TREMENDOUS double-standard in Marvel for characters that are liked by the writers and characters that aren't. It's clear that Cyclops is not liked or understood by anyone working at Marvel.

No reason at all to apologise, mate. I was concerned you would take my (admittedly abrasive as always with me) comments personally, so I just wanted to let you know that I don't have anything against you when I get worked up like this, tis all aimed at the writers and editors. Cyclops is my second favourite character (after Bats), so that's why I get so damn frustrated. The fact that people can't read between the lines and are just jumping into two equally ludicrous camps of "Cyclops was right" and "Cyclops is a terrorist" is just endlessly maddening. IT'S NOT CYCLOPS!!

Alright, I have read this entire thread, and I've concluded a great deal of the arguing is completely pointless. I'm not saying that @Timandm and @lykopis agree on everything, but you agree on enough and are arguing semantics in a way which can't possibly go anywhere.

Tony Stark is absolutely responsible -- in that, had he not been involved, it would not have happened -- for the breaking up of the PF and thus, indirectly, the possession of the five and their actions.

However had Tony done nothing, it is quite likely that the result would have been even more catastrophic. So damned if you do, damned if you don't: we must see the fallout from Stark's actions as the lesser of two very undesirable options, and at least we can understand why he did it, because he didn't know it would backfire and result in the repercussions. This is the difference between, say, 1st Degree murder and 3rd Degree. Tony is responsible for the crime -- he holds the smoking gun -- but he didn't mean to hurt anyone; the fallout was not his intention.

So like someone who just happens to kill someone, Stark is responsible but not wholly responsible. And the PF acts of its own accord -- so again, he may have averted a much greater disaster. His actions, even if we call them wrong, can still be justified in that they precluded a vaster evil from occurring.

And so we come to the five, and I think a very strong case has been made that regardless of the role agency plays no one under the influence of PF is truly acting as themselves. At best they are in the same shoes as Stark: indirectly responsible insomuch that no one else can be called responsible, but still lacking the autonomy to do otherwise than what they did. The PF is euphoric, it makes its hosts revel in the power. Some more than others, but still: even the enthusiasm must be seen as a side effect of the "drug."

So we have Stark, and we have the five, and we can say that all of them are both responsible (insomuch as their actions led to atrocity) and not responsible (insomuch as their actions weren't premeditated, intentional, or even within their control). Even if we could find a jurisdiction to place their actions under, what good would it achieve? What can Tony do to pay penance for his role, especially given the very real likelihood that his inaction would have made things even worse? And what will arresting Scott or Emma achieve, aside from taking away the one force standing between new mutants and a dystopian iron fist that has emerged to keep them from becoming a possible threat, worldwide?

I loved Emma's speech not because it proved that she and Scott were completely innocent, but because it established that for every accusation the Avengers have against the X-Men, there's an equal charge to be levied against the Avengers. Neither is right -- both are equally wrong. Both did things, or caused things, they regret. But punishing them for it solves nothing whatsoever and allows greater evils to flourish. As "the legal thing" is clearly not on anyone's radar, let's look at the morally "right thing" to do: given the options, can anyone really say that Scott and Emma's arrest and subsequent imprisonment (which, quite honestly, would not involve a fair trial -- and again, even if there were jurisdiction to operate that trial under) would be the best possible route? Or even a good one? In a jury-driven trial you look for unbiased jurors: where are you going to find them? The world hates mutants, and mutants look out for their own. So unless your jurors are disinterested aliens, you're not going to get a sentence driven by anything other than preconceived notions of who was right or wrong. Can you say hung jury?

So again: I don't even know what's being debated. Both sides are arguing for all the reasons why the other side is wrong, but no one can actually exculpate the side they support. If everyone's guilty, why are we even trying to find "justice?" Isn't it inevitably going to be one-sided, and therefore unjust?

@Timandm:

Tsk, tsk! So stubborn! LOL I understand you see this in terms as the United States and their jurisdiction in within those constructs, then there isn't anyone with the right to take any of the the Phoenix Five into custody (although, what did Magneto do outside of breaking them free of jail?)

Also, the UN can't be expected to be a valid entity here -- the world revealed many of its countries had secret sentinel programs. To claim an international court would be unbiased is ridiculous.

And Utopia is recognized as a sovereign nation.

No one has the right to take Scott or anyone else into custody. All actions done while under the influence of the Phoenix can't be condemned to the person who was possessed by it. However, there is an expectation to place effort in not being in a situation where the Phoenix can do harm. Using the drug analogy -- it's not quite as though someone went to the club and was slipped a narcotic in their drink. I would say it's more attending a drug party. A party specifically for doing drugs. The odds of getting a drug slipped into your drink is more likely -- and it's an illegal event as it is. So don't go. Do not go to the party. In attending said party, you inherently accept responsibility for whatever happens to you. You don't know what exactly, but you have some idea and it's plenty screwed up.

Oh yes, the Avengers attended the wedding. They even attempted to have Cap and Tony reconcile -- even for the sake of the party. No can do -- they both sucked out (and for the record, I was pure Cap on the whole Civil War thing).

Nah -- the whole build up from Schism and AvX isn't all on Bendis' shoulders, but he sure knew what was going on. I have no idea why anyone would read what came out of Scott and Emma's mouths and not be flabbergasted. They really went on a stretch there and the only way I can carry myself past it is to think it was all bravado for the sake of the cameras.

(Scott did take underage, Australian citizens out of their country without obtaining permission from their guardians...does that constitue kidnapping? ;p)

Hey, people are saying they are enjoying the book and that's great. If they can get past all the inconsistencies and OOC shpeels from various, well established characters, then whoop-de-do. I don't like it. I am hoping to? Seriously, I really am. I lowered my expectations substantially so I could and that bar still hasn't been reached. When I see Eva, I see Kiden. So much was riding on restoring powers to mutants for years in the Marvel Universe, and so far, it's been about new ones? Where are all the others? Why aren't we seeing some more Wanda action in restoring people's mutant powers --- you would think there would be a line-up outside the Avengers Mansion.

This is what I mean by not quite getting what Bendis is attempting to accomplish here. So much build up, so many story arcs that rested on this whole M-Day thing and now we are supposed to ignore there are mutants out there who should be repowered because Bendis wants us to look through the window he's created? Nah -- he should be giving some attention to at least a couple of strings left hanging for years -- there are numerous of them dangling.

Cool discussion

@FadeToBlackBolt: That's odd as several of your lists put Spider-Man and Superman above Scott. Not to mention other characters but that's besides the point. Your word>the lists and I am sorry Marvel butchered Cyclops as they have. It's a shame he's not as big as Spider-Man, Thor, Captain America or other Marvel characters as their changes/bad moments get ironed out for the most part and they carry on as if the event didn't happen back to their usual selves. Shame the same can't be done for Cyclops.

Conclusion to this topic :

DC is better than Marvel. These days at least.

The hell is going on here. Cyclops is clearly a greatest hero and in the morally right. Avengers are way out of line, they are dancing monkeys for a government that hates their own people. They're charging Cyclops with murder because of his actions against the government not for actually murder. Everyone should be blaming the Phoenix and not each other. It was clearly the problem.

@Lvenger: I consider Spider-Man and Superman to be better characters than Scott, but I like Scott more. =)

And yeah, seems I have a habit of liking characters that get screwed over and/or demonised lol

(Sentry, Cyclops, Stingray, Hank Pym, Wally West, etc...) Oh well, sh*t happens.

@Lvenger: I'm starting to think that its Scott who's possessed by Ock and not Spider-man given how he's been speaking lol!

Somehow Bendis wants us to hate Cyclops more and more with every day since AvX.I became a fan of Cyclops during Morrison's run because he finally started developing a character that I like and since Fraction and after him Gillen and now Benids,I can simply annoy myself that they are ruining a character that I once hated but then started loving him.

@Lvenger That's why I miss the old Cyclops. And I also miss the Old Jean(hence my interest in All-New X-Men)

@Strider92: It wouldn't surprise me if they pull out the possession card in the future.

@BlueLantern1995: Old fans of Scott like you don't seem to like what's been done and I agree that it's ruined what the character stands for.

@Timandm: I'm sure it's been mentioned a few times already in Marvel history. I heard it on Ultimate Alliance first. In Indestructible Hulk 4, Banner is sent to help the Chinese devision of Shield stop Attuman. They even have an underwater version of the Helicarrier called the Dreadnought.

The X Men Should had defeated The Phoenix THemselves. As For THe Avengers, Since when did they started getting involved with the situation. They know nothing.

@timandm: This is so accurate its scary!

Remember, Shadowland? My boy Matt was manipulated by the Hand to carry a Karate Demon, did some stuff, then Cap confronts him.

But, oh Bucky should be exempt from all crimes because he was brainwashed by the Soviet's.

@guardiandevil83: Thats a bit different. Matt allied himself wit the hand intentionally which was a risky move, he basically put himself in the position to get screwed over whereas Bucky didn't

you got good points