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#1 Edited by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Superman always win? Superman VS Thor

DC's Man Of Steel or Marvel's God Of Thunder?

Here is a link to the previous battle between Superman & Silver Surfer.

Does Superman always win? Superman VS Silver Surfer Blog

Superman has been said to be the strongest superhero in all comics. But is that true? Can the Man Of Steel be taken down? Or is it true The Man Of Steel is without match. I believe there are beings who can take him down, so let's put it to the test, shall we? Find out on these weekly segments who can challenge The Man Of Steel.

As you can see, this weeks matchup, and very first segment is between Superman, and Thor. This battle will take place on neutral ground, and be a random encounter, so no intended advantages here! Morals off. No prep will be included, and they will have standard equipment. So Thor will have have Mjolnir for this battle. Currently I don't believe Thor uses the belt of strength anymore, because i don't see him with it. Superman will be allowed Pre-Flashpoint & New 52 feats. Thor is allowed Classic & Current feats. Despite the picture Thor does not have the Odin Force. Enough of this talk we want to see who wins don't you?

I will split this into categories, and than have a verdict at the end. Categories will be speed, strength, durability, intelligence, ect.

BEGIN !

RAUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Strength

This is a category that always gets used when trying to find out which one of these two win. They are both incredibly strong, and one of the physically strongest heroes from there respective universes. Superman was shown to move 1/3 of the planet along side Martian Manhunter & Wonder Woman. Destroy moons,lifted a book with Captain Marvel that weighed infinite, and planetoids. Superman has currently held the weight of the planet for 5 days with barely any struggle. I don't know how to take of that, because he was later shown in other comics in his series that he has struggled with a lot less. Thor has shown the strength to move an island casually, lift the Odinsword, struck down the Phoenix Force, and put holes in Celestials. Although it seems Thor is out classed. Not by a lot, but still outclassed. I would say that Superman will obviously have more lifting feats because Thor is casually shown to have Mjolnir in his hand, and well how do you lift stuff with a hammer in your hand? Although I would give the strength advantage to Superman he just has better feats. Although...Thor has better striking force than the man of steel. You have to take into consideration that Thor has a magical hammer that was used by Odin in the olden days, and was made from a star. Something a lot of people don't know is that Thor is not only the god of thunder, and lightning, but he is also the Norse god of strength too. Keep that in mind. Thor has struck down Cosmic beings, and Skyfather level beings with it's strikes. So I believe although Superman has more raw phyiscal strength, Thor has the better striking power. ( To clear things up, I meant striking power with Mjolnir not Thor's actual fists. Sorry for the confusion. )

Thor:Thou seems to have match me in strength

Superman:Seems we are equal..for now

Durability

This is a factor that will be a big thing in this match. Can they take what they dish out? Let's see. Superman has been shown to hold black holes in his hand, have to planets crash into him, survived a supernova, and even tanked many hits from Doomsday. Who I might add was wrecking the other Justice League members in 1-2 hits. Yes, Superman's durability is good, but so is Thor's. Thor has tanked a point blank planet explosions, supernova's, the weight of planets on him, and tanked blasts from Celestials. Although they have been taken down from far less, so these showings don't hold much value. I don't know about you, but this one is extremely close. Maybe even more than the strength category. I will leave this at a draw since they seem fairly even.

Speed

Hmm...this one is quite obvious, but let's go on shall we? Let's start with Thor this time. Thor has microseconds reaction speed, shown to have FTL travel speed in space, and can swing Mjolnir twice the speed of light. Now for Superman. His speed feats over shadows Thor's by a large margin. I mean the guy has the speed to stalemate Flash for a while on earth. ( I know he let him win, and tied him, but it's still a feat, and I doubt Thor could do it ) Reacted at nanosecond speed, and has flown from earth to far reach planets in minutes. There are 3 types of speed to consider. Flying speed, ground speed (speed on earth), and reaction speed. Thor also has to spin his hammer to fly, and take off. I believe Superman has Thor beat in every single one. Yeah, this one is obvious. Superman beats Thor in this category by a large margin, and it will be a huge factor in the overall fight.

Bet you can't do this Thunder God

Versatility

This category is going to show which character brings more to the battle. They both have lots of powers, but only ones that are actually combat usable will probably get used. Superman has powers like heat vision, frost breath, super breath, X ray vision, phasing, healing, super hearing, super ventriloquism microscopic vision, absorption, and invulnerability. These would probably make you sway to Superman's side already without hearing Thor's wouldn't it? But Thor also has a lot of powers combat usable. Like super hearing, weather control, control over the earth, teleportation, absorption & redirection, energy projection, transmution, invulnerability, amping, godblast, anti-blast, magic, ocean control. It seems that Thor not only has more powers, but his are more useful. I would say that in this fight Thor's powers would do more than Superman's. I would give this one too Thor.

Power

This is a category where Thor finally gets to show off what he's got. The rest of the categories were in Superman's favor, or stalemates. Thor has a lot of power at his disposal, because his dad is Odin king of the Skyfather's, and arguably the strongest Skyfather in Marvel. His mom is Gaea the mother Elder Goddess, and goddess of the earth. So it would make sense if he was really powerful wouldn't it? Well he is. Thor has been shown to summon winds from 1000 worlds to hurt beings as powerful as Odin, made storms that have raged from Asgard to earth, and were ripping everything up, can control the earth partially (Doesn't really know how to use this power) thanks to his mother, anti-blast as powerful as a star, and a godblast that is his own life force into an attack that devastates most thing it hits. Like Exitar's dome, Galactus, Durok, and even managed to push the unmovable classic Juggernaut back. Superman is no slouch though. He has frost breath colder than the arctic, heat vision hotter than the sun, and capable of range as big as the planet. Not to forget Superman can move so fast he can phase throw solid objects like Doomsday's punches for example. Although I said Superman is no slouch, he is still beat in this category by a margin almost as big as the speed category.

Thy is a puny mortal, and puny mortals shall fall to the Odinson

Intelligence

This one is actually an interesting category. I know who everybody thinks is going to get this category Your all probably like "Superman got this in the bag" or "really? This is a no contest". Well guess what your wrong. Yes Superman maybe more book smart, or have a higher IQ. It is shown that Superman can use his super speed plus large brain capacity to read all the hospital books to do a procedure on a women he only could do. He did this all in a couple of minutes, while it takes humans years to this. Superman is more smarter in those areas, but when it comes to a fight in combat Thor is more better. Yes Thor does love to charge into battle Mjolnir first due to how Asgardians are, and his constant thought that no one can match him. (Which they can, and have) Thor has been shown to be quite smart in fights. Like when he realizes he might not win wit brute force alone he goes to other tactics. Thor has done stuff like send opponents away, drain there energy, used weather attacks for advantage, showed people alternate futures so they wouldn't kill civilians upon realizing what they are doing. Thor has thousands of years of combat skill, and battles. He has led the Asgardians into battles much times, and even the Avengers. He led the Secret Avengers against the Phoenix Force too. Heck when Thor first came to earth he learned the English language in 1 week, and would have been faster, but he had trouble with nouns, and such. I'm not saying Thor takes this, but that it's closer than more would say,

Thy think Thor fights Frost Giants, and Trolls all thy time?! I say they NAY !

Verdict

As much as it pains me to say. I'm sorry my fellow Thor fans, and you''ll be happy Superman fans. Superman wins. I would say he takes 6/10 battles. Close, but Thor didn't have as much luck as the Silver Surfer. Yes Thor has the strength to go rounds with Superman. Yes he has the durability to take hits from Superman, and yes he has the overwhelming power to hurt Superman. But there is one thing Thor lacks a lot of...and that is speed. Yes Thor has reacted to Silver Surfer, and such. But it does not mean Surfer was going as fast as he could, or was trying too. For every one blow Thor lands the Silver Surfer will land about 10+. We have seem what Superman can do with his speed, and knowledge on pressure points on Ultraman. He used his speed to hit every pressure point in Ultraman's body. Even if this doesn't work, Superman can just punch Thor with his insanley powerful strength at high speeds, coupled with heat vision that can probably harm Thor a little. Thor can win if gets off his more powerful attacks, or gets in some of those hard striking Mjolnir hits. Not to mention Superman has a weakness to magic.

So the first segment of "Does Superman always win" is over, and the winner is Surfer. Stay tuned in for next week, I hope you enjoyed this.

#2 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

Was this not good? :/

#3 Posted by tensor (4342 posts) - - Show Bio

What you are saying in the strength department is just so wrong.Thor strikes harder how so? When thor engage cosmic beings of skyfather level, he is hitting them with his hammer not his fist. Most of thor feats with striking power have to do with the hammer than his fist.Give hulk the hammer he would do the same thing.

#4 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

It's fine. It is a topic beaten to death though. If you are a Thor fan like myself, you may find yourself frustrated in the last 10 years. Kurt Busiek, a known Superman fan, wrote the JLA/Avengers crossover. The fight between Thor and Superman was wrong on so many levels....but perhaps the most important, from a business standpoint, Busiek could have written that fight a draw and set the stage for JLA/Avengers crossovers for YEARS to come, making profit for both companies. Instead, he allowed his fanboy to dominate and he gave what every Superman fan believes they're entitled to, another win for Superman.

It was a major DISLOYALTY to all Thor fans. When the idea was presented to Jim Shooter when he was EIC at Marvel, he was essentially like, "I don't think so". Where the f*&^ is the loyalty from Marvel to their own characters?

At any rate, I no longer read Thor. I glance at it in my comic shop from time to time, but I never buy it. Why give Marvel the impression that I'm okay with how they write the character? Superman fans bitch about him to DC and things get DONE over there. They are absolutely committed to the character. You won't find the same at Marvel. If you are posting, writing letters...save your time and energy. Best way to get your point across? Stop buying that crap.

Stan Lee was on AMC's Comic Book Men recently, and was asked who is stronger, Thor or Hulk. His response is that when two characters like these two meet, you have to somehow find a way to make it a draw. And he's right. Until recently, the Hulk Thor fight has been one of the most hotly debated topics at Marvel for literally decades.

Long story short...I hate to tell you this...but you are wasting your breath. Hey, stop buying he comic.

#5 Edited by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@tensor: You can't be serious. I meant with his hammer obviously. Jeez.

#6 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1: I agree with this actually.

#7 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

People on CBR accosted Busiek with the claims that he somehow engineered Superman's dials-go-up-to-11 win against Thor because he loves Superman oh-so-much and hates Thor, and he outright dismissed the claims and stated categorically that most of the whining was coming from bitter Thor fanboys who needed some way to discredit what happened ---- and the quickest way to do that is claiming the writer was biased.

Quote, "This is something angry Thor extremists just made up as their imaginary explanation for why I didn't write the way they felt any right-thinking person would."

Moderator
#8 Posted by SoA (4836 posts) - - Show Bio

for durability on Thor's part he was picked apart by the U-foes , moonstone and iron patriot , simultaneously , i do not believe they have supernova-like power. I'm not the biggest Thor supporter but i just wanted to point that out .

#9 Posted by Squalleon (4610 posts) - - Show Bio

I am actually looking forward to your articles!Good Job

I have only one complain.

Take your time when it comes to choose Supes opponents.

Try something more original :-)

#10 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

This really doesn't matter..

Your logic can't beat my fanboyism.

#11 Posted by Lvenger (19905 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1: You should give this a read and see if it doesn't set the record straight

Anyway excellent analysis @ThunderGodsWrath: I liked how deeply you analysed the categories and the logic you followed in reaching your conclusion.

#12 Posted by Fallen_Crippled (6455 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice post.

#13 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA: That was a low showing. How about I show Batman kicking Superman in the face, and spilling blood?@Squalleon said:

I am actually looking forward to your articles!Good Job

I have only one complain.

Take your time when it comes to choose Supes opponents.

Try something more original :-)

Thanks ! & Yes I will.

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

This really doesn't matter..

Your logic can't beat my fanboyism.

So your a Thor fanboy? I said Thor loses.

#14 Posted by SoA (4836 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: go ahead? its your thread lol

#15 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: Hence the "Your logic can't beat my fanboyism" :P

#16 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: @Fallen_Crippled: Thanks ! Next week will be something no one will suspect.

#17 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by SHAZAM117 (3013 posts) - - Show Bio

They both have extreme advantages imo. Thor brings the magic which Supes is vulnerable to. Superman brings the speed + strength combo that Thor has a disadvantage in. An argument can be made for either character to win in my eyes....But a fight between the two is more than likely always going to be a slugfest and it's pretty much up to the writer at that point.

#19 Posted by Lvenger (19905 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: It's not Superman vs Goku is it? :P

#20 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHAZAM117: True

@Lvenger said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: It's not Superman vs Goku is it? :P

Nope, lol :p

#21 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Hence the "Your logic can't beat my fanboyism" :P

Oh lol

#22 Posted by Z3RO180 (6547 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath I would say superman and thors strength is equal but other than that I agree

#23 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180 said:

@ThunderGodsWrath I would say superman and thors strength is equal but other than that I agree

Hhmm, maybe. And thanks !

#24 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#25 Posted by tensor (4342 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: Well if you meant it that way edit it then.An what do you mean by you hate people like me?

#26 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@tensor said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Well if you meant it that way edit it then.An what do you mean by you hate people like me?

Nevermind, that was needed, so I changed it. Sorry. Also i edited it.

#27 Edited by mettlekm (417 posts) - - Show Bio

As the OP said, if they can level out the speed of Supes, then would be a fair fight. Maybe edge to Thor because of mjolnir.

Just because Thor would lose, doesn't mean he isn't a great character. In fact, his imperfections are what, in many people's opinion, makes him a better & more relatable character than Supes.

#28 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@mettlekm: I see

#29 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#30 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

People on CBR accosted Busiek with the claims that he somehow engineered Superman's dials-go-up-to-11 win against Thor because he loves Superman oh-so-much and hates Thor, and he outright dismissed the claims and stated categorically that most of the whining was coming from bitter Thor fanboys who needed some way to discredit what happened ---- and the quickest way to do that is claiming the writer was biased.

Quote, "This is something angry Thor extremists just made up as their imaginary explanation for why I didn't write the way they felt any right-thinking person would."

Ah, Bane. Nice to know I have such a loyal following. Following me on other web sites now, eh? Funny, I never see you posting your comments on the rumbles forums over there? Pray tell, why might that be, hmmm? Pretty, creepy. Dude now follows me around on other web sites.

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. I still stand by mine.

Ironically, an honest appraisal of a Superman/Thor fight indicates Superman as the clear winner because of his speed. Regardless, Busiek erred, allowing his love of the character to determine the outcome of that fight...I mean, it wasn't exactly super speed that won that fight now was it?

#31 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Malevolent1: You should give this a read and see if it doesn't set the record straight

Anyway excellent analysis @ThunderGodsWrath: I liked how deeply you analysed the categories and the logic you followed in reaching your conclusion.

Lvenger. One of Bane's greatest fans.

You two are amazing. You and Bane's emotional reaction to me is a little...unsettling. Why not post the link for the whole conversation?

I really don't care what Busiek says...bottom line, from a business stand point, he blew a MAJOR opportunity to do something lasting. We would still be reading JLA/Avengers crossovers if Busiek hand't pulled that kind of crap. The man has no class.

#32 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

@CitizenBane said:

People on CBR accosted Busiek with the claims that he somehow engineered Superman's dials-go-up-to-11 win against Thor because he loves Superman oh-so-much and hates Thor, and he outright dismissed the claims and stated categorically that most of the whining was coming from bitter Thor fanboys who needed some way to discredit what happened ---- and the quickest way to do that is claiming the writer was biased.

Quote, "This is something angry Thor extremists just made up as their imaginary explanation for why I didn't write the way they felt any right-thinking person would."

Ah, Bane. Nice to know I have such a loyal following. Following me on other web sites now, eh? Funny, I never see you posting your comments on the rumbles forums over there? Pray tell, why might that be, hmmm? Pretty, creepy. Dude now follows me around on other web sites.

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. I still stand by mine.

Ironically, an honest appraisal of a Superman/Thor fight indicates Superman as the clear winner because of his speed. Regardless, Busiek erred, allowing his love of the character to determine the outcome of that fight...I mean, it wasn't exactly super speed that won that fight now was it?

That doesn't even resemble a nice try. I was directed to Busiek's post by a user named abhilegend on KMC --- he posted it on a page of the Character Ownage Thread, and since I wanted verification, I googled it to find out where it came from. The fact that it was you Busiek was shutting down just made it funnier. I've never had an account on CBR, mainly because I'm not fond of the forum layout and design.

"Following" implies that there is something of worth to follow. You know as well as I do that there is nothing about you that is worth following. Why even try with the half-baked wah bane is stalking me routine?

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. You are also welcome to yours. The only difference is that your opinion isn't worth the paper it's figuratively printed on vis-a-vis the events of JLA/AVENGERS ---- and it's based on a set of assumptions that Busiek has stated are categorically false and impossible for you to prove in the slightest. He basically called you a lunatic conspiracy theorist, and pointed out that all the other editors involved ---- Perez, Brevoort and Quesada --- were all amenable to what happened in JLA/AVENGERS. You know as well as I do that you have no way of proving otherwise.

But hey, it is the right of all sentient lifeforms to stand by their opinions. However baseless and/or deluded said opinions might be. I can't really say it any better than Busiek did himself, can I?

Moderator
#33 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Malevolent1 said:

@CitizenBane said:

People on CBR accosted Busiek with the claims that he somehow engineered Superman's dials-go-up-to-11 win against Thor because he loves Superman oh-so-much and hates Thor, and he outright dismissed the claims and stated categorically that most of the whining was coming from bitter Thor fanboys who needed some way to discredit what happened ---- and the quickest way to do that is claiming the writer was biased.

Quote, "This is something angry Thor extremists just made up as their imaginary explanation for why I didn't write the way they felt any right-thinking person would."

Ah, Bane. Nice to know I have such a loyal following. Following me on other web sites now, eh? Funny, I never see you posting your comments on the rumbles forums over there? Pray tell, why might that be, hmmm? Pretty, creepy. Dude now follows me around on other web sites.

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. I still stand by mine.

Ironically, an honest appraisal of a Superman/Thor fight indicates Superman as the clear winner because of his speed. Regardless, Busiek erred, allowing his love of the character to determine the outcome of that fight...I mean, it wasn't exactly super speed that won that fight now was it?

That doesn't even resemble a nice try. I was directed to Busiek's post by a user named abhilegend on KMC --- he posted it on a page of the Character Ownage Thread, and since I wanted verification, I googled it to find out where it came from. The fact that it was you Busiek was shutting down just made it funnier. I've never had an account on CBR, mainly because I'm not fond of the forum layout and design.

"Following" implies that there is something of worth to follow. You know as well as I do that there is nothing about you that is worth following. Why even try with the half-baked wah bane is stalking me routine?

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. You are also welcome to yours. The only difference is that your opinion isn't worth the paper it's figuratively printed on vis-a-vis the events of JLA/AVENGERS ---- and it's based on a set of assumptions that Busiek has stated are categorically false and impossible for you to prove in the slightest. He basically called you a lunatic conspiracy theorist, and pointed out that all the other editors involved ---- Perez, Brevoort and Quesada --- were all amenable to what happened in JLA/AVENGERS. You know as well as I do that you have no way of proving otherwise.

But hey, it is the right of all sentient lifeforms to stand by their opinions. However baseless and/or deluded said opinions might be. I can't really say it any better than Busiek did himself, can I?

*chuckles*

Easy. No need to stop being a lady. The fact that you pasted a screen shot of this to share it with comic vine is all the proof in the world that I need that you are absolutely obsessed with me. You say you aren't, yet here you and your little buddy Lvenger are posting screen shots of my comments over at CBR. You guys seriously need to get a life. The reason you don't post on CBR battle forums is because you and your little "fan base" that run around here making outrageous claims about characters and their abilities would Get SHUT DOWN. Fast. If you are such a good debater of comic feats, PROVE IT. Go to CBR. Let's see just how long you last over there. If you're a real comic guru that knows his crap, show it to me on the most prestigious place on the internet to debate comic book rumbles. And no disrespect to Comic Vine. Love the site. Comic Vine has stuff I love over here way better than CBR.

I go over there with my arms folded, waiting to be impressed.

#34 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Malevolent1 said:

@CitizenBane said:

People on CBR accosted Busiek with the claims that he somehow engineered Superman's dials-go-up-to-11 win against Thor because he loves Superman oh-so-much and hates Thor, and he outright dismissed the claims and stated categorically that most of the whining was coming from bitter Thor fanboys who needed some way to discredit what happened ---- and the quickest way to do that is claiming the writer was biased.

Quote, "This is something angry Thor extremists just made up as their imaginary explanation for why I didn't write the way they felt any right-thinking person would."

Ah, Bane. Nice to know I have such a loyal following. Following me on other web sites now, eh? Funny, I never see you posting your comments on the rumbles forums over there? Pray tell, why might that be, hmmm? Pretty, creepy. Dude now follows me around on other web sites.

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. I still stand by mine.

Ironically, an honest appraisal of a Superman/Thor fight indicates Superman as the clear winner because of his speed. Regardless, Busiek erred, allowing his love of the character to determine the outcome of that fight...I mean, it wasn't exactly super speed that won that fight now was it?

That doesn't even resemble a nice try. I was directed to Busiek's post by a user named abhilegend on KMC --- he posted it on a page of the Character Ownage Thread, and since I wanted verification, I googled it to find out where it came from. The fact that it was you Busiek was shutting down just made it funnier. I've never had an account on CBR, mainly because I'm not fond of the forum layout and design.

"Following" implies that there is something of worth to follow. You know as well as I do that there is nothing about you that is worth following. Why even try with the half-baked wah bane is stalking me routine?

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. You are also welcome to yours. The only difference is that your opinion isn't worth the paper it's figuratively printed on vis-a-vis the events of JLA/AVENGERS ---- and it's based on a set of assumptions that Busiek has stated are categorically false and impossible for you to prove in the slightest. He basically called you a lunatic conspiracy theorist, and pointed out that all the other editors involved ---- Perez, Brevoort and Quesada --- were all amenable to what happened in JLA/AVENGERS. You know as well as I do that you have no way of proving otherwise.

But hey, it is the right of all sentient lifeforms to stand by their opinions. However baseless and/or deluded said opinions might be. I can't really say it any better than Busiek did himself, can I?

*chuckles*

Easy. No need to stop being a lady. The fact that you pasted a screen shot of this to share it with comic vine is all the proof in the world that I need that you are absolutely obsessed with me. You say you aren't, yet here you and your little buddy Lvenger are posting screen shots of my comments over at CBR. You guys seriously need to get a life. The reason you don't post on CBR battle forums is because you and your little "fan base" that run around here making outrageous claims about characters and their abilities would Get SHUT DOWN. Fast. If you are such a good debater of comic feats, PROVE IT. Go to CBR. Let's see just how long you last over there. If you're a real comic guru that knows his crap, show it to me on the most prestigious place on the internet to debate comic book rumbles. And no disrespect to Comic Vine. Love the site. Comic Vine has stuff I love over here way better than CBR.

I go over there with my arms folded, waiting to be impressed.

So --- wait. I tell you the reason I don't post on CBR is that I don't like the forum layout ---- and people on CV who know me will tell you that this is true; when beatboks asked me why I wasn't on the Ledger, I told him it was because I didn't like that site's layout either --- and your reply is that you know my feelings regarding web design better than I do? Seriously, there's a time when anyone with pretentions to adulthood like yourself needs to let go of all the bitterness and resentment. I don't even know what the CBR battle forums look like. I don't care what anyone thinks about my debating abilities. I never have, and I've never seen the need to prove it. While you were typing up that paragraph, did you really think I'd pay attention to some lunatic on the internet daring me to drop my pants for a figurative dick measuring contest? Come on. Grow up. You're embarrassing yourself.

And ----- wait. I talk about Busiek and his rebuttal, and your reply is to try and draw attention away from him mocking your conspiracy theory by daring me to start debating over there? Not only are those two things not even connected even a little bit, it is literally the worst attempt at deflection I've ever seen.

Jesus, man. I didn't type up the Iliad. There is nothing to read between the lines here. I made a simple statement regarding the veracity of Busiek's claims and the absolute illegitimacy of yours. There was no possible way for you to get confused and start talking about something completely unrelated. I realize you must be aware on some level that you have a grand total of zip to offer as a counter to Busiek's rebuttal, but that's no reason to go completely batsh!t insane on me.

Again, all the proof in the world that I am obsessed with you is really just wishful thinking. And I don't know about Lvenger being my little buddy or whatever, but I'm pretty sure he just reposted what I posted, so I doubt he's as obsessed with you as you might like to believe. Nor do I know why you're determined to hurl feces at bystanders, but whatever ----- some people do seriously need to get a life.

Moderator
#35 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice post. Great job staying unbiased, especially since we all know you're a Thor fan. It wouldn't hurt to have a proofreader, though. But on the whole, I enjoyed reading it, and I think it's a pretty fair and comprehensive assessment. Well done!

#36 Edited by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Malevolent1 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Malevolent1 said:

@CitizenBane said:

People on CBR accosted Busiek with the claims that he somehow engineered Superman's dials-go-up-to-11 win against Thor because he loves Superman oh-so-much and hates Thor, and he outright dismissed the claims and stated categorically that most of the whining was coming from bitter Thor fanboys who needed some way to discredit what happened ---- and the quickest way to do that is claiming the writer was biased.

Quote, "This is something angry Thor extremists just made up as their imaginary explanation for why I didn't write the way they felt any right-thinking person would."

Ah, Bane. Nice to know I have such a loyal following. Following me on other web sites now, eh? Funny, I never see you posting your comments on the rumbles forums over there? Pray tell, why might that be, hmmm? Pretty, creepy. Dude now follows me around on other web sites.

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. I still stand by mine.

Ironically, an honest appraisal of a Superman/Thor fight indicates Superman as the clear winner because of his speed. Regardless, Busiek erred, allowing his love of the character to determine the outcome of that fight...I mean, it wasn't exactly super speed that won that fight now was it?

That doesn't even resemble a nice try. I was directed to Busiek's post by a user named abhilegend on KMC --- he posted it on a page of the Character Ownage Thread, and since I wanted verification, I googled it to find out where it came from. The fact that it was you Busiek was shutting down just made it funnier. I've never had an account on CBR, mainly because I'm not fond of the forum layout and design.

"Following" implies that there is something of worth to follow. You know as well as I do that there is nothing about you that is worth following. Why even try with the half-baked wah bane is stalking me routine?

Kurt is welcome to his opinions. You are also welcome to yours. The only difference is that your opinion isn't worth the paper it's figuratively printed on vis-a-vis the events of JLA/AVENGERS ---- and it's based on a set of assumptions that Busiek has stated are categorically false and impossible for you to prove in the slightest. He basically called you a lunatic conspiracy theorist, and pointed out that all the other editors involved ---- Perez, Brevoort and Quesada --- were all amenable to what happened in JLA/AVENGERS. You know as well as I do that you have no way of proving otherwise.

But hey, it is the right of all sentient lifeforms to stand by their opinions. However baseless and/or deluded said opinions might be. I can't really say it any better than Busiek did himself, can I?

*chuckles*

Easy. No need to stop being a lady. The fact that you pasted a screen shot of this to share it with comic vine is all the proof in the world that I need that you are absolutely obsessed with me. You say you aren't, yet here you and your little buddy Lvenger are posting screen shots of my comments over at CBR. You guys seriously need to get a life. The reason you don't post on CBR battle forums is because you and your little "fan base" that run around here making outrageous claims about characters and their abilities would Get SHUT DOWN. Fast. If you are such a good debater of comic feats, PROVE IT. Go to CBR. Let's see just how long you last over there. If you're a real comic guru that knows his crap, show it to me on the most prestigious place on the internet to debate comic book rumbles. And no disrespect to Comic Vine. Love the site. Comic Vine has stuff I love over here way better than CBR.

I go over there with my arms folded, waiting to be impressed.

So --- wait. I tell you the reason I don't post on CBR is that I don't like the forum layout ---- and people on CV who know me will tell you that this is true; when beatboks asked me why I wasn't on the Ledger, I told him it was because I didn't like that site's layout either --- and your reply is that you know my feelings regarding web design better than I do? Seriously, there's a time when anyone with pretentions to adulthood like yourself needs to let go of all the bitterness and resentment. I don't even know what the CBR battle forums look like. I don't care what anyone thinks about my debating abilities. I never have, and I've never seen the need to prove it. While you were typing up that paragraph, did you really think I'd pay attention to some lunatic on the internet daring me to drop my pants for a figurative dick measuring contest? Come on. Grow up. You're embarrassing yourself.

And ----- wait. I talk about Busiek and his rebuttal, and your reply is to try and draw attention away from him mocking your conspiracy theory by daring me to start debating over there? Not only are those two things not even connected even a little bit, it is literally the worst attempt at deflection I've ever seen.

Jesus, man. I didn't type up the Iliad. There is nothing to read between the lines here. I made a simple statement regarding the veracity of Busiek's claims and the absolute illegitimacy of yours. There was no possible way for you to get confused and start talking about something completely unrelated. I realize you must be aware on some level that you have a grand total of zip to offer as a counter to Busiek's rebuttal, but that's no reason to go completely batsh!t insane on me.

Again, all the proof in the world that I am obsessed with you is really just wishful thinking. And I don't know about Lvenger being my little buddy or whatever, but I'm pretty sure he just reposted what I posted, so I doubt he's as obsessed with you as you might like to believe. Nor do I know why you're determined to hurl feces at bystanders, but whatever ----- some people do seriously need to get a life.

Bane, Bane. Stinkin' up the place with your baloney again.

*chuckles*

So...what you are saying is you have first hand knowledge that there is information to the contrary? Oh, dear...

In the end, all any of us has is conjecture based on circumstantial evidence. And in the end, based on what I've read or discussed with others on other comic book web sites, I've formulated an opinion. And you come at me with a single post from Busiek and me on CBR? Like I said, why not post the whole thing? I'll do it for you. Here is the link to me and Mr Busiek's conversation. I have absolutely nothing to hide:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?318265-Has-Thor-really-been-depowered/page27

Oh, and for anyone else that is interested, the final product we see of the JLA/Avengers crossover is not the first time the idea was fielded, but rather the culmination of years of events leading up to that point:

http://marvel1980s.blogspot.com/2011/06/1983-jlaavengers-crossover-also-known.html

http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/07/secret-origin-and-gooey-death-of_21.html

I used to think you were a fairly intelligent guy. But it seems every dreary conversation we've had from beginning to end...

just keeps getting silier.

I'll say it again: I think Busiek allowed the fan boy in him to get the best of him. That is my opinion. And I'm sticking to it. Why not let others around here formulate their own opinions without you and Lvenger spamming crap. You and your little click need to seriously grow up.

Good night Bane.

---oh, and lest I forget...my previous challenge stands. How good is Bane OUTSIDE of the little fantasy world he has been allowed to carve for himself here on Comic Vine. If you are so great at debating comic battles, meet me on CBR.

Flash vs Silver Surfer.

Otherwise, shush. And a word to the wise: board raids are strictly forbidden. For sake of disclosure, this is private challenge extended from me to Bane. Man up, son!

#37 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

Bane, Bane. Stinkin' up the place with your baloney again.

*chuckles*

So...what you are saying is you have first hand knowledge that there is information to the contrary? Oh, dear...

What? Honest question ---- is there any point of time when your brain is aware of what your fingers are typing?

In the end, all any of us has is conjecture based on circumstantial evidence. And in the end, based on what I've read or discussed with others on other comic book web sites, I've formulated an opinion. And you come at me with a single post from Busiek and me on CBR? Like I said, why not post the whole thing? I'll do it for you. Here is the link to me and Mr Busiek's conversation. I have absolutely nothing to hide:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?318265-Has-Thor-really-been-depowered/page27

"Why not post the whole thing?". You posted a different thread. And where exactly is the conversation? There's nothing on Page 27, which you linked to. Nothing that I saw on pages 28-32 either. Which of the remaining 26 pages am I supposed to pretend to look at?

Oh, and for anyone else that is interested, the final product we see of the JLA/Avengers crossover is not the first time the idea was fielded, but rather the culmination of years of events leading up to that point:

http://marvel1980s.blogspot.com/2011/06/1983-jlaavengers-crossover-also-known.html

http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/07/secret-origin-and-gooey-death-of_21.html

Wow. You mean a giant collaborative project between two major competitors took years to put together? Will wonders never cease?

I used to think you were a fairly intelligent guy.

Cool. I've personally never entertained that notion about you, but alrighty then.

I'll say it again: I think Busiek allowed the fan boy in him to get the best of him. That is my opinion. And I'm sticking to it. Why not let others around here formulate their own opinions without you and Lvenger spamming crap.

Sure. They can form their opinions with your conspiracy theories, or they can form their opinions with the testimony of the writer in charge.

You and your little click need to seriously grow up.

It's called a "clique". I know this because I attended high school, which is something you do when you grow up.

Good night Bane.

Since I have no attention of derailing ThunderGodsWrath's thread any further, as well as no intention of wasting brain cells on the whining of children, this will be my last post on this thread.

Good night, sweet prince.

Moderator
#38 Posted by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

---oh, and lest I forget...my previous challenge stands. How good is Bane OUTSIDE of the little fantasy world he has been allowed to carve for himself here on Comic Vine. If you are so great at debating comic battles, meet me on CBR.

Flash vs Silver Surfer.

Otherwise, shush. And a word to the wise: board raids are strictly forbidden. For sake of disclosure, this is private challenge extended from me to Bane. Man up, son!

Man, I can't begin to imagine how a human being can harbor this much bitterness after so long. Are you still mad about the dressing-down Static gave you for trolling so long ago? Or about the other times I've mocked you in various threads? Get a grip.

Come on. Grow up. This was never about my debating skills. And if you think it was, you have the priorities of a 12 year old.

"You think you're so tough? Come at me!!!!!1"? Seriously, how old are you?

Moderator
#39 Posted by SC (13110 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree about speed. Thor and Superman both have deus ex machina level speed. To put it at its most simple, if you swapped Thor into DC and Superman into Marvel, both's speed portrayals would reflect their new scenarios. This is why Silver Surfer, and all the Marvel Superman clones (Gladiator and Hyperion) don't exercise superior speed to Thor against him. The argument applied to Silver Surfer "not necessarily going as fast as he could" applies to all characters - like did you know that Aunt May isn't necessarily applying all her power and its possible that she could actually five trillion times more powerful than Galactus? Thats what that word could (and likewise words) does, so its a tricky word to use as far as exclusive arguments. This is reflected in every encounter the two characters have ever had, and by the writers who have written both characters and the guy who created the two characters. Just my 2 cents overall, and just like the last blog, this is a very well written, and fun write up on these two cool characters!

Moderator
#40 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

So the first segment of "Does Superman always win" is over, and the winner is Surfer. Stay tuned in for next week, I hope you enjoyed this.

Minor typos. Just trying to help. :P

Nice blog. :]

#41 Edited by termiteone4ever (7354 posts) - - Show Bio

YEs he always win . No matter what all the Thor fan comes with and excuses. HIs strength is way over thors . HIs speed combat wise is surpasses Thor by a large margin again i have preached this for years . I know it hurt the Thor and silver surfer fans but combat speed thor and surfer is useless Flying speeds in a straight line they are fast basically travel speeds with assistance from their weapons. Recently ocean master lighten happen to knock out superman and wonder woman i knew dc needed a away to take down the heavy hitters but lightening from ocean master must have been packing some serious power to take down those two. In all fact every moment the writers does mess up the character giving them some low end feats . I could easily remind you of how a wolverine almost killed thor plenty damage also some surfer low end feats . Surfer has done some impressive things but what most people think or cross their finger on is the surfer awareness which is random. Superman is no stranger to cosmic beings on higher level than surfer.

#42 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

Very nice post. Great job staying unbiased, especially since we all know you're a Thor fan. It wouldn't hurt to have a proofreader, though. But on the whole, I enjoyed reading it, and I think it's a pretty fair and comprehensive assessment. Well done!

Thanks ! Also you can be my proofreader? Your good on debating.

#43 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@Esquire said:

Very nice post. Great job staying unbiased, especially since we all know you're a Thor fan. It wouldn't hurt to have a proofreader, though. But on the whole, I enjoyed reading it, and I think it's a pretty fair and comprehensive assessment. Well done!

Thanks ! Also you can be my proofreader? Your good on debating.

I'd be happy to do it. Just PM me the article before you post it, and I'll clean up the grammar for you. Sound okay?

#44 Posted by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@Esquire said:

Very nice post. Great job staying unbiased, especially since we all know you're a Thor fan. It wouldn't hurt to have a proofreader, though. But on the whole, I enjoyed reading it, and I think it's a pretty fair and comprehensive assessment. Well done!

Thanks ! Also you can be my proofreader? Your good on debating.

I'd be happy to do it. Just PM me the article before you post it, and I'll clean up the grammar for you. Sound okay?

Good :)

#45 Posted by dondave (37410 posts) - - Show Bio

AVery Well Done Unbiased Assesment

#46 Edited by boostergold321 (301 posts) - - Show Bio

How does Superman have a speed advantage? Can someone answer that honestly? Besides magic, what advantage or disadvantages are there really???

Both characters have been shown with microsecond and nanosecond reaction time!!

Both characters can move at supersonic speeds.

Both characters, on rare occassion, move at the speed of light and beyond!

Both characters have shown arstronomical feats of power!

Anyone who tries to puts one over the other when it comes to personal abilities is just bein biased, wanting to favor one characters over another despite that the facts tell them the opposite!

Both characters depend on the circumstance of story. These guys have people from the real world pulling their strings. They're called WRITERS!!

Both have missed the mark against things that have been shown within their ability to handle!

Superman looks like Stupid-man every so often against the lame villains of DC!

Thor gets made to look like the god of blunder instead of thunder from time to time as well!

It's called jobbing. The Job is doing less than what your expected to do when it comes to your superpowers. Thor and Superman's power have to take a dive sometimes for the sake of the story!

Does that make them chumps all of sudden? Should we ignore the level of Super-ness that they are known for? No! We should simply realize that writers don't let the characters perform to the best of their abilities 100 percent of the time because if they did, then there would be no story interesting enough to read.

#47 Edited by New_World_Order (13189 posts) - - Show Bio

@termiteone4ever said:

YEs he always win . No matter what all the Thor fan comes with and excuses. HIs strength is way over thors . HIs speed combat wise is surpasses Thor by a large margin again i have preached this for years . I know it hurt the Thor and silver surfer fans but combat speed thor and surfer is useless Flying speeds in a straight line they are fast basically travel speeds with assistance from their weapons. Recently ocean master lighten happen to knock out superman and wonder woman i knew dc needed a away to take down the heavy hitters but lightening from ocean master must have been packing some serious power to take down those two. In all fact every moment the writers does mess up the character giving them some low end feats . I could easily remind you of how a wolverine almost killed thor plenty damage also some surfer low end feats . Surfer has done some impressive things but what most people think or cross their finger on is the surfer awareness which is random. Superman is no stranger to cosmic beings on higher level than surfer.

Although I agree Superman beats Thor due to speed. I believe your underestimating Thor, and especially Silver Surfer greatly.

@dondave said:

AVery Well Done Unbiased Assesment

Thank you !

@boostergold321 said:

How does Superman have a speed advantage? Can someone answer that honestly? Besides magic, what advantage or disadvantages are there really???

Both characters have been shown with microsecond and nanosecond reaction time!!

Both characters can move at supersonic speeds.

Both characters, on rare occassion, move at the speed of light and beyond!

Both characters have shown arstronomical feats of power!

Anyone who tries to puts one over the other when it comes to personal abilities is just bein biased, wanting to favor one characters over another despite that the facts tell them the opposite!

Both characters depend on the circumstance of story. These guys have people from the real world pulling their strings. They're called WRITERS!!

Both have missed the mark against things that have been shown within their ability to handle!

Superman looks like Stupid-man every so often against the lame villains of DC!

Thor gets made to look like the god of blunder instead of thunder from time to time as well!

It's called jobbing. The Job is doing less than what your expected to do when it comes to your superpowers. Thor and Superman's power have to take a dive sometimes for the sake of the story!

Does that make them chumps all of sudden? Should we ignore the level of Super-ness that they are known for? No! We should simply realize that writers don't let the characters perform to the best of their abilities 1000 percent of the time because if they did, then there would be no story interesting enough to read.

Superman has nano second, Thor had microsecond(s). That's really what I thought was the problem though.

#48 Posted by boostergold321 (301 posts) - - Show Bio

While character talk can be cheap, Thor's speed has always been astonishing to his opponents. The original Black Knight shoots bolas from his lance that are literally surrounding Thor, but because of his speed, Thor knocks the lance away and evades capture. Black Knight exclaims, "I've never seen such speed... such power!!" From Avengers #6:


Here, Hela only has to touch Thor in order to ensnare his soul in 1v1 combat, but is unable to do so because of his speed, "His speed, his anger, are beyond comprehension!" From Thor #354:




Here, while fending off two Herald-level foes, Adam Warlock likens his ability to catch his staff mid-swing and his combat speed to that of lightning, "He moves like the lightning he commands, much quicker than I remember." From Infinity Watch #23:

But he has more than just subjectations (no matter how reliable the speaker). What everyone really cares about are the more objective and reliable speed feats. One reliable type of speed feat is where the character moves so fast that they become a blur of motion or move too fast to be seen. Here, Thor fights Heimdall and swings his hammer down on him at speeds "moving too swiftly for the eye to follow," even too fast for Heimdall in Journey Into Mystery #125:

Likewise here, Thor digs a trench in a blur of motion that is "almost too fast for the human eye to follow." From Marvel Team-Up #26:


And here, while helping rebuild Asgard, Thor hammers down repeatedly on a pillar and "becomes a blur of motion" in Thor #267:


Thor's combat reflex speed feats are impressive in their own right. Here, Thor reacts to a knife being swung down only inches from his face with a mighty heave inThor #218:

Thor reacts and swats away arrows that are only a few feet away from hitting him from behind in Thor vol. 2 #27:


Here, Thor is about to have his face smashed by a cursed Mjolnir which is zooming back to him, but he moves swiftly enough on reaction to dodge it in Thor vol. 2 #27:


Thor reacts to Wrecker swinging his mystic crowbar onto Thor's head from behind. Literally only inches away, Thor moves so swiftly once again, he snatches the crowbar with his hand in Thor vol. 2 #29:


And it looks like current Thor hasn't lost that bare-handed touch as he catches Bor's axe inches from his face in Thor #600:


He's also fended off an ambush by Wolverine who was right on top of him in Wolverine vs Thor #2:

Another common way to measure those is to see how well Thor does against speedsters. Here, Thor builds a trench around crazed citizens and Avengers, including a zooming Quicksilver in Avengers #98:


Here, Thor punks the Newman speedster, Juvan, who was created by the High Evolutionary, using nothing but his bare hands in Thor #447:


Here, Thor catches another High Evolutionary creation who possesses superspeed, the godling, Zefra in Thor #475:

And Thor has punked the superspeedster, Hermes, the literal Greek God of Speed, not just once, but twice in Avengers #281 and Thor vol. 2 #27:



But even superspeedsters can job and it's difficult to quantify exactly how fast they are going in each instance. But Thor does have directly measurable superspeed feats. Here, he literally snatches a fired tank shell out of mid-air with his bare hand in Journey Into Mystery #93:

And similarly snatches a fired missile with his bare hand in Marvel Team-Up #148:


Here, we see Thor flying outside a window and when Jane Foster gets his attention, Thor manages to intercept Cobra's poison dart within a split-second. The dart is fired before he even is inside the room, just to give you the proper frame of reference to understand the speed and reflexes necessary in Journey Into Mystery #98:


Here, in the space of one and one-fifth seconds, Thor dives out of the sky, smashes Mjolnir down and causes a shockwave to divert a runaway truck from killing a young boy ACROSS the city in Journey Into Mystery #108:


Here, Thor's able to swat away a torrent of flying bricks t to be half a building, not allowing any of them to pass through in the space ofmilliseconds. To give you a reference as to how fast he's swinging his arms back and forth, check out panels three and four. Notice how far a speedblitzing Gladiator advances between Thor's swings! From Thor vol. 2 #34:

Here, in the space of micro-seconds before a zooming cursed Mjolnir will strike Thor from behind, Thor lays a haymaker onto an Enchanter and spins around in time to snatch Mjolnir in mid-air, from Thor#144:


Now we all know Thor has stopped bullets and energy beams by spinning Mjolnir around. And it's been argued that he has to do that because he's not fast enough to block them traditionally with Mjolnir or bat them away. After all, he'd require faster than bullet ("FTB") and faster than light ("FTL") combat speed reflexes to do so. However, these next scans should dispel ANY doubt whether he does possess FTB or FTL combat speed reflexes since he deflects bullets and energy blasts bymoving or swinging Mjolnir once rather than by spinning Mjolnir. Here, with FTB speed, he deflects two bullets with a single swing way back in Journey Into Mystery#100:


Here, he blocks a single bullet with the head of Mjolnir before whirling it to create a field in Thor #246:


As for FTL reactions that can be measured in nanoseconds (light travels one foot per nanosecond), he's swung and swatted away Blastaar's energy blasts in Thor#270:

Far from a one-off FTL feat, he does the same to Mole Man's energy blaster shot in Marvel Two-In-One #96:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...wo-In-One96.jpg

Here, Enchantress shoots a blast at Captain America and Thor reacts with FTL speed to cut off the energy blast in mid-flight, from Marvel Comics Presents #44:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...eed17bMCP44.jpg

Phoenix shoots a telepathic blast at a groggy Thor at the moment Thor's arms are at his side. AFTER the shot is fired and already traveling at him, Thor raises his arms and reflects it back with Mjolnir. Telepathy being instantaneous traditionally (as noted in the narration), we can assume for the sake of argument that it was only traveling at light-speed, making this another FTL feat, from Excalibur#428:



In terms of flight speed, he's flown at least three times the speed of light, from Thor #185:


He bats away a possessed Iron Man's repulsor rays in Avengers vol. 3 #3:

And again bats away ray blasts in a training session in Avengers vol. 3 #23:


Punking Quicksilver again In Mighty avengers vol #34:





#49 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

Dan Jurgens, who wrote both characters, said that Thor is more powerful than Superman. That being said, I think most fans and creatives would disagree.

#50 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Lunact_And_Manic said:

This really doesn't matter..

Your logic can't beat my fanboyism.

This is so true on a number of topics. Both within and outside comics.