Do you believe that morals hinder superheroes?

Basically do you believe that superheroes morals actually hinder there ability to accomplish there mission is stoping crime or does it make stronger and more effective. I will give you some food for thought; doc oc did a much better job at protecting people then Peter ever did but he was much more ruthless. Another example is injustice superman who protected his world through oppression; are these examples the exception or do you think that the morals are really holding back as heroes?

No it makes their struggles more entertaining to read and how much harder they have to fight much more exciting and above all their stubble to whether to take the easy way or maintain their belief to be better. Plus Its variety if people didn't enjoy those types of stores they should piss off and read an anti hero book like Punisher,Wolverine, Deadpool, Suicide Squad, Vigilante, X-Force, Secret Avengers, New Avengers and any other books with amoral teams and heroes who have no consciousness or any moral fiber.

yeah but then the people stopped trusting spiderman entirely and started smashing his robots, they basically think he went from being a menace to a nutcase. And the superman thing well that's basically self explanatory. the smallest crime he went all over kill on them. i like seeing them battle, i mean if they just went around snapping necks they would run out of rouges quickly. On that note in elseworlds or what if's it's pretty cool to see them act "out of character" Like I hope and cannot wait for ock to fight norman, if it is actually norman.

No, Morals make heroes. Doc Ock may be more efficient than Peter but he'll never be half the hero Peter is because he isn't doing what he does to be good, he's just trying to prove he's better.

"Only the weak succumb to brutality"-Superman

I think that morals make heroes who they are, but that they hinder a hero's goal of eliminating crime. How many lives could be saved if batman killed the joker? Or superman led luthor?

It really depends. I think chaotic good is the most efficient moral code as it means that you're willing to break the law for morals, but are also willing to have a moral code that is lenient for the greater good.

I blame that on courts and the citizens of Gotham. Nine times out of 10 a gotham citizen as soon as he's threatened would have killed Joker much like Batman could have been killed by a random sniper. Hell the courts long ago could have placed Joker on execution row he practically states out in the open how much he loves to kill. That and a random anti hero like Magog could have easily killed Joker. Batman is an enforcer not a executioner if he was he'd be just another Judge Dredd. Still executing enemies yet making no difference in the world just killing.

The whole Batman killing the Joker thing doesn't mean it'll save lives..What's to say Batman won't stop at killing just the Joker if he were to cross that line. The Punisher kills the bad guys all the time but that doesn't mean it solves any problems or that it's the right thing to do. The ones with morals have the harder fought victories because the ones with twisted or nonexistent ones take the easy way out with their actions. I love the Punisher but is he truly accomplishing any goals by killing the villains? Both ways cause problems

Furthermore, you don't blame the cop for not killing the criminal, you blame the prison for not keeping him locked up.

@the_stegman: But Batman's not a cop. The prison can't hold joker so it would sense for him to act outside of the law (like he already does anyway) and rid the world of the joker. And logically it wouldn't be that bad for batman to continue killing his other villians too. No more silly deaths from two faces coin, or bane raging, and anything like that. Kill a few villians, save thousands of lives. I do prefer heroes with morals, but i think it can get in the way sometimes. Just my thinking.

@jayc1324: But forcing a non killing hero to kill is forced and if you don't like it you should read the established anti heroes like Punisher.

Why open a door when you can bust through a wall?

@tigerkaya: I wasn't saying that I think batman should start killing in his stories, I don't want him to be like the punisher. I was just saying that his morals hinder his war on crime IMO.

Batman functions as a cop, he works with cops, Gordon even said that Batman does good for Gotham, but if he kills, he'd be forced to hunt him down. Batman does his job, he catches the crazies and puts them in jail, blame the prisons for being so incompetent, they can't hold one clown, or blame the courts for not giving Joker the death penalty. Plus, what makes you think that Batman killing will stop all crime? Take down one crime lord, another will take his place. Crime has existed since mankind, it's not as simply remedied as 'let's kill all the bad guys".

No.

Morals a large part of what makes them heroes.

Yes but if they didn't have morals they would be villains so technically no but its hard to say so i don't know but it's yes and no possibly yes but maybe not and iin reality its not computable.

@the_stegman: Batman is works similar to how cops do but most of the time he does stuff outside of the law that Gordon let's him get away with like breaking and entering, interrogating criminals, and assaulting people. Its simply illegal to take the law into your own hands but Gordon allows it (not that Gordon could stop him if he tried). Its stuff like that that makes him different from a cop. True, killing joker won't stop all crime, but it would do more good than leaving him alive right?

A killer operating outside of the law, passing justice on those he deems worthy to die..sounds like a villain to me :P

Anyway, I've said it before, and I've said it again, if the Joker is such a threat, give him the gas chamber, but noooo, they keep throwing him into an easily escapable looney bin.

Yes it makes it harder for them to win but makes them challenge themselves to become better

Morals define heroes. And lacking morals shouldn't be perceived as an advantage, it's a character flaw. You don't think "damn that thief really has one up on me!" you think "what is wrong with that person? he deserves to get his ass beaten into the ground by Spider-Man—morally."

morals makes things interesting. a lack of it would mean the final realization of the justice lords or similar concepts of such groups.

Bump

I feel they need some morals.

Damn where's this quote from? Some Superman expert I am if I don't know where this is from.

Oh and morals basically define what a hero is and by what standards (s)he is measured. It makes their struggle against those without ethical inhibitions all the more enthralling and the clash of ideologies both physically and mentally is a great concept to play out in a comic book. Morals are what make a hero and how they deal with the villains and problems they face.

No, because many superhero stories are not just about the superhero beating the supervillian or fighting crime (at least the good ones), it's about the hero being the best possible archetype for humanity and giving the readers a sense of escapism. Having morals and sticking to them despite what the world throws at them is what helps create this, even if it might hurt their end goals of eradicating crime.

@lvenger: it's from Kingdom Come, oddly enough, lol.

Well I haven't read that in a while but still bugger it.

From Batman: under the red hood.

Jason Todd: What? What, your moral code just won't allow for that? It's too hard to cross that line?

Batman: No. God Almighty, no. It'd be too damned easy. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. A day doesn't go by I don't think about subjecting him to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others and them end him.

Joker: Aw. So you do think about me.

Batman: But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place, I'll never come back.

Jason Todd: Why? I'm not talking about killing Penguin or Scarecrow or Dent. I'm talking about him. Just him. And doing it because... Because he took me away from you.

Batman: I can't. I'm sorry.

Morals makes heroes struggle but prohibits them from turning bad.

Boom.

@youknowwhattodo: That's more common in Dc though. Cap America, Spiderman and Captain Marvel are the only major heroes in MU who act like that.

Nope

Morals is what makes a hero

@lvenger: @experio: @thatguywithheadphones: What these guys said. If you honestly think that Spock or Injustice Supes were better heroes then their counterparts then you are seriously

Mistaken

I mean, if that were the case people like superman would simply destroy the planet. Because what's the point? Hard to have crime when a species and it's biosphere are nonexistent

The only reason prisons can't hold Joker is because it's storyline..Obviously there would be nothing left to do with the Joker if he was locked up and never got out. Wouldn't be that bad? Like I said already I love guys like the Punisher but who gives them the right to judge whether these guys should live or die? The only characters I give the pass on killing is the mystical characters like Ghost Rider,The Spectre,and such because their abilities let them actually know who's truly innocent/guilty/whatever. The Punisher's willingness to kill villains was shown to be faulty in that christmas issue once where he was sitting on top of that building with that sniper rifle aimed at those guys in the store playing around with the stiltman costume. He killed the one guy that came out who bragged about killing cops so he had it coming I guess but as for the others..Well Rhino stood in front of the scope telling him that Frank punishes the guilty, not the stupid.

Innocents are always going to die in comics..Stopping guys like the Joker isn't going to stop such things from occuring.

Even villains have morals, The Flash's rogues won't kill anyone unless its necessary and even Catwoman (whose was once villain) had the same non gun policy as Batman. Sometimes villains having morals is just as interesting as the heroes.

@gambit474: Well everything happens because of the storyline. And Joker probably kills the most out of all of Batman's villians. Like you said, Killing villians won't stop death or crime completely, but killing the bigger villians, like Joker, who kills tons of people all the time, would help his war or crime. Without joker the amount of deaths would be significantly less. That's all I was saying. I know it won't solve all his problems but it WOULD help.

@lyrafay: That's what I said. :P

Its not their place

The thing is you have no proof that it'd help end his "war on crime." All you have is your take on it whereas for all you know someone just as chaotic or bad could take Joker's place and poof..the pattern repeats. The deaths would never be significantly less..There's more lives lost when bigger baddies come in like Darkseid than there is by the Joker. The day Batman decides to kill the Joker will be the day he loses his war on crime

Someone quoted from the Red Hood however I wish I could remember what it was Batman said to the Joker at the end of Arkham City where he said he'd save him all over again after Joker broke that antidote

"

Batman: You want to know something funny? Even after everything you've done, I would have saved you.

The Joker: [laughs, coughs] Actually that is pretty funny."

Something along those lines..Even with the option to kill Joker right in his face Bruce still decides not to do it

wouldn't it necessarily make batman selfish.. part of why hes not killing joker just to feel better about himself. its not just about batman and what he wants, but if he can save lives, wouldn't that be a win?

but guys and girls we have had this argument for years haha

Why would someone choose to risk their health and life to protect people if they didn't possess morality? Being a superhero requires a fair bit of empathy.

If heroes didn't have empathy, we would end up with a world like the beginning of Kingdom Come where 'heroes' cause massive collateral damage in their battles and feel no remorse for the innocents that get caught in the crossfire.

@gambit474: You also have no proof that someone would replace joker. But if joker dies, its guaranteed less people die already. Guys like Jason Todd who kill their villians agree :p But we obviously feel different about this so agree to disagree

I am in agreement with everyone saying their morals is what makes them interesting and heroes. That being said he asked do morals hinder them? I'm of the opinion that it most certainly does. Supes should be able to stop street level crime practically by himself. Setup a camera broadcast it worldwide in all languages. Listen for someone committing murder, blitz to them bring them back and kill them, then warn everyone that this will happen to them if they don't stop. Do this for a hours or days and make sure to say where you got them from so they now how easy it is for you(supes) to get to them. After awhile I'm pretty sure crimes going down. Now I'm not saying kill everybody like petty crime or something maybe just take a hand for robbery. Now I'm not saying there won't still be crime, but it will most certainly drop. As for the bigger/cosmic threats/villains when possible throw them into the sun or find a way to kill them or permanently incapacitate them. The people saying killing Joker wouldn't save lives baffles me. It's all but guaranteed if Joker is free which is going to be the case he's going to kill possibly and most likely on a large scale. Will someone rise and replace him? Yes but I seriously doubt they would be as bad as the Joker that's why he's the Joker. In short yes I think the morals hinder them, but that's also why I love them. That's what makes them heroes.

Sure I do..They've done such things before in comics where a villain is gone and gets replaced by another. No it's not guaranteed..If anything it'll make Gotham even more chaotic because everyone will be in fear now that they saw Batman kill someone when he was always known for not doing such a thing. Rofl Jason Todd..Jason was off the looney bin and was attacking heroes and villains(Battle for the Cowl for ex). Sure we could agree to disagree..However there's more proof to say that your logic is wrong moreso than it is right

Then again you had no counter arguments anyways. All you had was that "less people would die" if the Joker was killed. Tons of lives would be saved if they killed Galactus but you don't see them doing that.

Who would see him kill joker? People don't just see batman walking around on the street. And the joker, like most good villians, is one of a kind. Not exactly easy to replace. No joker=Jason Todd would've never died, Barbara Gordon would've never been paralyzed... Just some examples of things that could've been prevented. Just putting that out there because you said I had no counter arguments. But we both stated our opinions and agreed to disagree so I'm done with this now. :) And I would say it is pretty hard to kill galactus by the way :p