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#1 Edited by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

So, after starting Daredevil a a few months back I've become a fan of his writing. I've been getting caught up on his Daredevil run and started getting his Indestructible Hulk series in trade form.

Anyway, I've noticed that he has written people like Matt Murdock and Bruce Banner...out of character. Sort of re-inventing them. Personally I enjoy the new take on the characters, but I can see where a fan of the old Daredevil and Hulk would disagree.

So, what's your opinion?

#2 Edited by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

He isn't really writing them "out of character". I like the way he's been doing stuff

#3 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare: Maybe that was the wrong way to say it. They're not really out of character because he gives a reason. More like a character evolution?

#4 Edited by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare: Maybe that was the wrong way to say it. They're not really out of character because he gives a reason. More like a character evolution?

Yeah character evolution is a better term. I dunno about DD but I don't think many people are upset about the Hulk being changed

#5 Posted by TheFirstLantern (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie: One of my favorite writers, I see it as actual character development. He is awesome. Both those books are great. Have you read Age of Ultron Issue 10 A.I. that was amazing story focused on just Hank Pym.

#6 Posted by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's ultimately a good thing. It's good for characters to develop, learn, and change. They shouldn't stop being who they are, but no one is happy or angry or sad all the time. Circumstances change, moods change. Characters shouldn't be so locked in as "symbols" of a given thing or as filling a certain archetype that they cease to be people.

#7 Edited by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie said:

@peppeyhare: Maybe that was the wrong way to say it. They're not really out of character because he gives a reason. More like a character evolution?

Yeah character evolution is a better term. I dunno about DD but I don't think many people are upset about the Hulk being changed

I've seen quite a few people upset about Hulk...

#8 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21850 posts) - - Show Bio

i cant wait to read daredevil. im just starting to get into the character

#9 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Jake Fury (18617 posts) - - Show Bio

Waid is a great writer. I need to check out his Hulk and DD stuff.

#11 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7751 posts) - - Show Bio

Haven't read his Daredevil run, but I'm loving Indestructible Hulk. Best Hulk run in a long, long time in my opinion.

#12 Edited by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's ultimately a good thing. It's good for characters to develop, learn, and change. They shouldn't stop being who they are, but no one is happy or angry or sad all the time. Circumstances change, moods change. Characters shouldn't be so locked in as "symbols" of a given thing or as filling a certain archetype that they cease to be people.

Very good point...

#13 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21850 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie: wikipedia? lol. umm anything of daredevils off youtube, and im in the middle of shadowland. but when i comes to actually buying stuff ill get mark waids trades from amazon or ill buy a set of issues off ebay.

#14 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: Cool. Waid's DD is fantastic.

Anyway, back on topic... Sorry about that.

#15 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (11040 posts) - - Show Bio

He isn't really writing Bruce Banner out of character, Bruce's has been like that for a few years now, he's honestly just giving it a little more a development.

#16 Posted by blkson (785 posts) - - Show Bio

His daredevil is really good, I just started reading it as well. To be fair though, I've never read any other Daredevil stint. However, his Green Hornet has been a tad dull for my interest.

#17 Edited by chem86 (366 posts) - - Show Bio

He isn't really writing Bruce Banner out of character, Bruce's has been like that for a few years now, he's honestly just giving it a little more a development.

Right on. Really enjoying Waid's take on banner and hulk.

#18 Posted by JediXMan (30602 posts) - - Show Bio

Do I approve? No. I don't like reboots - at all. But it's not as if he cares about my approval... though he should.

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#19 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

If it works. Why not? It's their decision to call not ours.

#20 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

He didn't reinvent DD, he just gave DD a new character arc. After going through all this crap DD decided to stop worrying and just be happy for once.
If it works or not is a whole other story.

#21 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4799 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you feel about Lobo?

I rest my case. However, I like it. I think it's cool what they are doing with Lobo, Hulk, DD, and et cetera change is good. I always use this quote because I agree with it 100%.

"People want my old $!%^ buy my Old Albums."

There are already stories of a Dark Daredevil and a Green Scar Hulk so why not make a new character? If you prefer the old stories then read the old stories. That is just me though.

( +)

#22 Posted by HillbillyMorangie (927 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he gets Bruce Banner spot on and I also like his daredevil, as for the Hulk, I ink he needs to change, or evolve again if you would rather... But changes to the Hulk are plot based so who knows how he will end up? I'm not sure if it is a reboot or just a self contained story. TIME will tell ;)

#23 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you feel about Lobo?

I rest my case. However, I like it. I think it's cool what they are doing with Lobo, Hulk, DD, and et cetera change is good. I always use this quote because I agree with it 100%.

"People want my old $!%^ buy my Old Albums."

There are already stories of a Dark Daredevil and a Green Scar Hulk so why not make a new character? If you prefer the old stories then read the old stories. That is just me though.

( +)

Counter argument: If you have a new idea then why not just make a new character in the first place? What's the point of massively changing what fans like about a character when you can just have a new one?

#24 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4799 posts) - - Show Bio

I. I don't know squat this is just my imagination working for me.

II. New characters are harder to promote because it is a gamble on whether or not they will be highly popular. It is much safer to make a old character with a new persona than to make a brand new character.

Yes some of the loyal fans might hate it but all the loyal fans will give it a try, so for me at least it is a safer to reinvent a character than to spawn a new one. Plus, the common idea on why a character is unpopular is because he/she is a "ripoff' of another character, which is a added reason why reinventing a character is safer.

What should they promote DangerMan, a man who has no fear because he is blind and has radar who happens to be quite a optimistic character. Or should they promote Daredevil, like you've never seen before?

I can already imagine people thinking Dangerman is a terrible name, I can already see that people would be calling Dangerman a "ripoff"/clone of Daredevil.

III. I think it is fairly easy solution for people who dislike something, stop buying/supporting/caring. Lets say for example lil WAYNE, I can love his music from Tha Carter I to III but hate his music from Tha Carter IV, all I have to do is not buy it.

That's just me though.

( +)

#25 Edited by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@yung_ancient_one: Ah, but if the character is different enough from the original to annoy most fans then there's not likely an argument for ripping off, for instance the new Lobo. That's where it just becomes a sales thing, which while it makes sense from a business perspective doesn't mean it's good from a creative perspective.

#26 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

@decoyelite: Agreed but it Happens. One can argue HypotHeticals all nigHt but in tHe end it really can't be quickly proven. STILL, Here comes a simple argument of wHat if tHe creators Had no idea tHe fans would Hate tHe new Lobo.

II. WHat if, tHe creators decided to make a H'el decision. WHat if tHe creators made "Oblix" a space bounty hunter with the new Lobo design.

Do you tHink no one would call "Oblix" a wannabe Lobo? Do you tHink no one would question wHy "Oblix" even exist wHen tHere's already a loveable space bounty hunter?

Do you tHink comicbook fans would give "Oblix" a chance?

-Abstract 4$$#073-

#27 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: I think if the Oblix character were given a good push, yes they would be successful. And based off the Lobo issue the character would be sufficiently different from Lobo to keep from wannabe comments. The only thing they have in common is being bounty hunter aliens and their skin tone.

#28 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

@decoyelite: It's a HypotHetical situation tHougH, no one can quickly prove wHat would Have Happened if tHey took tHe H'el route.

II. THere is an argument tHat Lobo got a small cHange to His story wHicH is tHat He stole tHe name Lobo from tHis new cHaracter. He didn't get redesigned or reinvented, tHey just added a new story tHat He stole tHe name Lobo.

It has been said before but MetH will post it again. How funny would it be if Lobo's "birtH name" is THe Main Man.

-M3th.O.D.-

#29 Posted by Lvenger (19886 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie: I fail to see how he's reinvented Hulk and Bruce Banner. All he's done is given Banner a slight confidence boost and a different attitude on life along with removing the Hulk's more intelligent versions for a while. Both of these are completely justified because they both work in the context of the story, particularly when Hulk's changing personalities is skillfully explained by Waid. Sometimes he does get characters wrong like Spider-Man and arguably Daredevil for taking him out of a darker pulp noir setting. But Hulk is being written really well for my money of which I'm continuing to spend on it even though I've cut down to 4 series for university.

/rant over

#30 Edited by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Okay, so maybe he's not exactly reinventing Hulk, but he's given Daredevil a whole new personality. Granted he's given a reason, but it's still a drastic change in his character. What I'm asking is do you like what he's done with the characters. I'm asuming that's a yes since you praised his writing skill.

#31 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, especially Hyperion who needs re-invented.

#32 Posted by HillbillyMorangie (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Characters need reinventing from time to time, otherwise superman would still be a super human skinhead nazi fascist ;), but daredevil and hulk have barely changed from the comics I've read all my life, I fact daredevil is more like he used to be when I was a kid then he has been for ages... Bruce banner hasn't changed, he has just stopped running... Well unless you mean why his he now a eye-bot from fallout 3? Lol

#33 Edited by Vance Astro (91230 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil isn't being written out of character in the sense that Mark Waid doesn't know how he's supposed to be, his being written to ACT out of character. He's just not being written the way fans have been used to since the Frank Miller era. He didn't "get Daredevil wrong" by taking him out of "pulp noir". I would assume that after spending the last half of volume 2 inhabited by a demon that if he was going to put on the DD costume again, he'd HAVE TO be a bit more lively and actually start having fun as his alter ego so that he doesn't lose his mind.

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#34 Posted by Lvenger (19886 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie: For Hulk, it's a definite yes. Waid's Marvel work isn't as good as his DC work though overall. But his Fantastic Four and Captain America runs are really good as is his current Hulk run. And I wouldn't mind Waid taking over The Avengers once Hickman's done with the title.

#35 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'd definitely like to see him take on the Avenger title.

#36 Edited by Lvenger (19886 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie: Have you read JLA: Year One? It's a really great origin tale and shows what Waid can do with a good team title.

#37 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: No, I haven't even heard of it until now. I might have to check that out. Thanks.

#38 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie: I don't know about Daredevil, but he didn't re-invent Banner, this is banner, the way he should be. This has been developing for a long time and it makes total sense, unlike Jason Aaron, waid didn't change banner at all. He ins't out of character/

#39 Edited by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: You see, I always thought that Banner stayed the way he was in the old comics. I should have taken into account that he would have changed since the 60s before making this thread. :P

I must confess I haven't read much current hulk stuff until Waid's run.

#40 Posted by Lvenger (19886 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by daredevil21134 (11793 posts) - - Show Bio

He did not reinvent this silly ass Daredevil persona but it's damn annoying.

Daredevil isn't being written out of character in the sense that Mark Waid doesn't know how he's supposed to be, his being written to ACT out of character. He's just not being written the way fans have been used to since the Frank Miller era. He didn't "get Daredevil wrong" by taking him out of "pulp noir". I would assume that after spending the last half of volume 2 inhabited by a demon that if he was going to put on the DD costume again, he'd HAVE TO be a bit more lively and actually start having fun as his alter ego so that he doesn't lose his mind.

Agreed

#42 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: That's not a bad thing, is it? I've heard they're pretty good writers.

#43 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: You see I always thought that Banner stayed the way he was in the old comics. I should have taken into account that he would have changed since the 60s before making this thread. :P

I must confess I haven't read much current hulk stuff until Waid's run.

Well to easily sum it up. Banner has always had a strong personality despite being weak strength wise, thats the irony of the fact that Banner is put in charge of the strongest there is.

During Mantlos run banner was still a bit in the "woes me!" department, he still kept his cool but at a certain point he kind of gave up and gave into the hulk. After that During davids run, Banner had a chance to die and he overpowered this force, thus showing development. and from then on banner has become more and more confident over time and now here we are.

#44 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: Alright, cool. Thanks for getting me all caught up. :)

#45 Posted by Lvenger (19886 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: That's not a bad thing, is it? I've heard they're pretty good writers.

Not at all, Pak's run is my favourite Hulk run myself. But TAS is a big fan of those two ;)

#46 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull: Alright, cool. Thanks for getting me all caught up. :)

@lvenger said:

@battle_forum_junkie said:

@lvenger: That's not a bad thing, is it? I've heard they're pretty good writers.

Not at all, Pak's run is my favourite Hulk run myself. But TAS is a big fan of those two ;)

Bad Thing? NUUUUU! :D not at all, While i like waids run, it still hasn't measured up to the likes of David and PAK, it's still very good though :P

#47 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil isn't being written out of character in the sense that Mark Waid doesn't know how he's supposed to be, his being written to ACT out of character. He's just not being written the way fans have been used to since the Frank Miller era. He didn't "get Daredevil wrong" by taking him out of "pulp noir". I would assume that after spending the last half of volume 2 inhabited by a demon that if he was going to put on the DD costume again, he'd HAVE TO be a bit more lively and actually start having fun as his alter ego so that he doesn't lose his mind.

"Out of character" was the wrong term to use. I should probably edit that. What my question was do you like how he's writing Daredevil (and Hulk, but I was mistaken about him) now as apposed to Miller era. I know he had a reason for it, but it's still how he is being written whether it's an act or not.

#48 Posted by Battle_Forum_Junkie (7984 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio
#50 Posted by Vance Astro (91230 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle_forum_junkie said:

"Out of character" was the wrong term to use. I should probably edit that. What my question was do you like how he's writing Daredevil (and Hulk, but I was mistaken about him) now as apposed to Miller era. I know he had a reason for it, but it's still how he is being written whether it's an act or not.

Waid's Daredevil isn't at the top of my list for my favorite runs on the series because Brubaker,Miller,& Bendis were ALOT better but Waid's run is a good transition from their style of writing and it's just what I needed after Diggle's awful run and the travesty that was Shadowland.

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