#1 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

TL;DR

Many people claim DBZ characters are featless.

This is false. They merely lack knowledge of the characters.

Many people mistake planet-busting for Frieza's limit even though he did it effortlessly without powering up in his first form.

Also clearly false.

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(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feat?s=t)

(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/feat)

Feat

noun

1. A noteworthy or extraordinary act or achievement, usually displaying boldness, skill, etc.

2. an act or product of skill, endurance, or ingenuity

3. A notable act or deed, especially an act of courage; an exploit

4. An act of skill, endurance, imagination, or strength; an achievement.

5. A specialized skill; a knack.

6. a deed notable especially for courage

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The general assumption is that "DBZ characters are weak by feats but not by logic."

We hear this assumption because there are few distinct feats of DB characters indiscriminately destroying planets and mass amounts of area and such. Planets which were, by the power level of the Ginyu Force, extremely fragile.

Now, with that said, let's start with 1st form Frieza and his feats:

Physically and mentally abusing Nail, one of the mightiest and proudest Namekian warriors (fighting begins 4:45):

Obliterating Planet Vegeta (10x the gravity of Earth) in seconds:

Vegeta is the one with the feat of matching 1st form Frieza (casual planet-buster) in power:

2nd form Frieza has the feat of easily speedblitzing and one-shotting Vegeta after transforming, quantifying his claim that his power increases exponentially (by an unknown degree) when he transforms.

Yet Piccolo arrives, having fused with Nail, and performs the mighty feat of matching 2nd-form Frieza:

As well, Gohan shows his rage and performs the feat of overpowering 2nd form Frieza for a moment, as he did to Raditz:

3rd form Frieza has the feat of stomping Piccolo just as 2nd form Frieza did to Vegeta:

And Gohan has a second feat of rage, almost overpowering third form Frieza, but failing:

Gohan's feat against 3rd form Frieza prompts two things:

Frieza's final, ultimate transformation; and Vegeta convincing Krillin to blast him so he can power up through Zenkai:

After Dende heals Vegeta, by the other Z-Fighters' reckoning (they have feats to back the fact that they can detect how powerful opponents really are), he is the most powerful of them all by far excluding Goku. Yet,

They are no match...

Having been beaten to a pulp by his friends after Captain Ginyu took over his body, Goku arrives at long last to the battlefield - far more powerful than when he first arrived on Namek. But he, too, is no match whatsoever for Frieza in his ultimate form..

Goku's Kamehameha busted mountains as a kid. Picture the difference in power between seven year old Goku and x20 Kaioken Goku. Frieza tanks his full power Kamehameha without a scratch, sealing the deal.

Luckily for Goku, he is allowed to prepare a Spirit Bomb for an abhorrently long time.

A Spirit Bomb made on a planet like Earth (with lots of life) and access to the Sun's power is planet-busting or more, and would be about the size of Krillin or Gohan. Goku's stretched as far as he could from Namek - to many other planets filled with life, and many stars - to gather energy for his Spirit Bomb.

It is obviously massive, do the math. Frieza fully tanks the multi-planet busting Spirit Bomb:

Then Goku goes Super Saiyan, and it goes on, and on, and on.

Super Saiyan Goku feat of speedblitzing/overpowering final form Frieza (unpowered):

And that's about as far as I feel I can go.

Evidently ABC logic and feats are one in the same in regards to DBZ simply because the characters' powersets are almost entirely identical and they all fight in the exact same manners. For example, defeating Guldo has no relevance to defeating Recoome, and vice versa; whereas every single Z-Fighter has almost exactly identical abilities as their opponents.

Here's the rest of Goku and Frieza's fight for those interested. Guess I should highlight a feat, so;

Goku deflects Frieza's full powered Supernova (obliterated Namek while unpowered in first form) with ease at 0:45:

And last but not least... this has little to do with the thesis of the thread, but...

Many people claim DBZ characters' energy projection, durability, combat speed, striking power, etc. improve at rapidly varying levels, usually that they energy projection is far above their striking power and durability.

In fact, it is far more difficult to use and learn ki blast techniques than it is to learn to use ki to enhance physical stats. This unfounded theory is also factually inaccurate, as all ki stats are derived from one source.

Different blast techniques manipulate ki differently for different effects. For example, Roshi's Kamehameha and Goku's Super Kamehameha are very destructive, Krillin's Destructo Disc slices through matter, Raditz' Saturday Crush directly inflicts damage/pain, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon is designed for penetration, etc. All of these characters' blasts have proven comparable in power to their physical attacks, no more no less to any extreme degree, as some do suggest.

There are no logic or feats suggesting this theory is true. Rest assured, if a Super Saiyan can blast you away with ease, they can pummel you into a pulp as well.

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And so, where do I think this puts Frieza and Super Saiyan Goku during their final fight?

For energy, somewhere between multi-planet busting and starbusting, but not above; for combat speed, anywhere between half to a few times the speed of light; for durability, many times planetary.

Defining it in those terms is merely a compensation so that anyone can understand the scaling, because everyone understands our universe. Debating requires knowledge on both sides however, so being forced to define DBZ characters in such a way only indicates it is no debate at all, but an argument.

G'day.

#2 Posted by trebean (653 posts) - - Show Bio

These are actually pretty good.

The only mistake I saw was that the Spirit Bomb was actually a variation called the Large Spirit Bomb (Which seems pretty pointless but yeah....), and that I really don't know if it was proven that a normal Spirit Bomb can bust planets.

Also the reason that Frieza can't deflect the Spirit Bomb was because of him being evil, and Goku being good. Seeing how a Spirit Bomb made by a Pure Good Person (Goku) can't be deflected by a Pure Evil Person (Frieza) the two opposite energies cancel each other out and one engulfs the other (Frieza)

But still, the Spirit Bomb was not strong enough to incapacitate Frieza. Some people think that is either that:

A. Goku underestimated Frieza (since he was only at about 50%)

or

B. Not much life was left Namekian planetary system

. Despite the fact that it failed (Seeing how it only took down Frieza for a while), Frieza was still unable to reflect it, and caused him some damage.

Still pretty good though.

#3 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@trebean said:

These are actually pretty good.

The only mistake I saw was that the Spirit Bomb was actually a variation called the Large Spirit Bomb (Which seems pretty pointless but yeah....), and that I really don't know if it was proven that a normal Spirit Bomb can bust planets.

Also the reason that Frieza can't deflect the Spirit Bomb was because of him being evil, and Goku being good. Seeing how a Spirit Bomb made by a Pure Good Person (Goku) can't be deflected by a Pure Evil Person (Frieza) the two opposite energies cancel each other out and one engulfs the other (Frieza)

But still, the Spirit Bomb was not strong enough to incapacitate Frieza. Some people think that is either that:

A. Goku underestimated Frieza (since he was only at about 50%)

or

B. Not much life was left Namekian planetary system

. Despite the fact that it failed (Seeing how it only took down Frieza for a while), Frieza was still unable to reflect it, and caused him some damage.

Still pretty good though.

That's a good point and I had no idea it was a technical variation. It seems the difference in the Large Spirit Bomb was instead of channeling the energy through his body into a ball he collected it all directly into the air above him.

Still, he visibly took energy from many times more areas than the one on Earth. Namek suffered a huge planetary storm hundreds of years ago and the Nameks suffered greatly in numbers, but other life appeared abundant. I doubt the LSS was thousands of times as strong as the one on Earth as the size suggests, but maybe 50-100 times more powerful, since Goku stretched it to further suns and moons and planets full of life as well, which makes quite a lot more sense.

I don't believe it's ever stated to have anything to do with them being good or evil except when Gohan bounces it back, and that has more to do with it being aimed at Vegeta than Gohan being good. Frieza didn't dodge the Large Spirit Bomb because as he clearly said he accepted the challenge of tanking it and prevailed. Part of the reason why he couldn't push it back was yes, that he was not fully powered, and partly because presumably it was accelerating towards him.

And this is a little speculative (since for all we know Frieza regenerates when he changes forms) but, the theory goes that since Frieza was fighting so long for the whole day (as well as tanking that Spirit Bomb at 1% power) and Goku was pretty much fresh when he started fighting, that Frieza may have normally been able to overpower Goku in that setting even if he went SSJ, perhaps with ease. And that just attributes to how much more powerful SSJ Future Trunks is than SSJ Goku when he fought Frieza on Namek.

#4 Posted by TheReptile (190 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with mostly everything that you said but the FTL and star busting....I think they are a little stronger then that at the end of Z but just my opinion. Good stuff

#5 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio

Personal request to all DBZ fans here.

Shut up about power levels, they're just random numbers that went up, there's a reason they stopped being important very quickly and everyone dumped their dumb scouters.

Please, just don't bring them up. Ever.

Thank you.