Debunking Star Wars Versus Series - What is it?
"Debunking Star Wars Versus Series" is an idea that originates with @shroudofsorrow, where I'll be reviewing and criticising points of debate presented in youtube videos where the creators pit Star Wars characters against each other in a battle setting, and compare their strengths and weaknesses in order to come to a conclusion on who would win in a fight. Anyone who knows me well in the battles forum may have noticed how much I detest these videos. Not because I dislike the creators - any fan of Star Wars is inherently a friend of mine - but because of the sheer amount of misinformation that can be spread in their analysis. No, not everybody is an expert on these characters, and it's primarily a hobby intended to be fun and entertaining.. but there comes a point where someone needs to challenge some of the points being presented, because certain characters really aren't being done justice whilst others can be overrated, intentionally or otherwise. There's also the matter of certain youtubers looking at Star Wars battles very differently to how us on the battles board look at them. This isn't inherently a problem, but what is a problem is letting personal speculation, and in a lot of cases just simple ignorance, hinder ones ability to come to an accurate conclusion.
I've been pretty vocal about these videos in the past, but this series of blogs should serve as a much better platform for voicing my grievances. Note: This isn't a hate thread, and any offensive posting or trolling towards the youtubers in question won't be tolerated. I'm simply initiating a debate and discussion by reviewing their highly popular videos, the same way you would debate with someone on the battles board.
If anyone has any suggestions for videos I could review in the future, let me know. For now, let's start with...
Plo Koon & Shaak Ti vs Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku + Darth Maul
For your own reference, here is the video itself:
I'm going to be splitting my analysis up into categories, following the same order as the video. I'm not going to tackle every single point they make, because not everything they are saying is wrong or unfair - but I will be debunking arguments that in my mind are partially or completely false, whilst filling in gaps of information that should have been included in the video.
Character Introductions
Plo Koon
The first third or so of the video starts with detailed introductions for each character, assessing their overall capabilities and weaknesses. This won't be where the brunt of my arguments lie but there are some things to clear up.
Firstly, Reti4 brings up a several attributes Plo possesses that he believes translate over to this battle positively. Going to have to disagree on a few of them.
Plo Koon's Military Mind.
He regards Koon as a military genius both here and at the start of the video, due to Koon's active role as a general during the Clone Wars as well as his higher rank within the military that only he and nine other Jedi achieved.
What does this tell us? That Koon is intelligent, and that he knows warfare very well.
What does it not tell us? Anything about how Koon implements tactics into a lightsaber duel, for one.
Commanding an army is different from swordfighting - this should be a fairly simple concept to grasp. Does a good soldier make for a good war general? Does a good boxer make for a good boxing coach? The answer to both is no. It's a different ballpark altogether, in terms of strategic necessities (judging body language and fighting styles opposed to battlefield command and army placement), as well as psychology (predicting what an opponent may do based on their fighting mindset, habits and involuntary tells, opposed to predicting why an army attacked a specific location).
With that, it's safe to say that despite the intelligence of Plo and anyone else here, any feats of intelligence that don't actually pertain to lightsaber and physical combat are irrelevant to this battle scenario.
Plo Koon's Moral Outlook
This one is quite simple. Plo Koon see's most moral issues in black or white, where most others struggle with grey areas. As a result Koon can generally make simple decisions to solve even complex problems. Can this translate over to combat? Sort of.. if the scenario warrants it, but in a fight where the end goal is simply to kill or incapacitate your opponent, one's moral outlook is just irrelevant. This doesn't provide Koon any advantages in combat. It's worth including in the video, I suppose, but it didn't deserve as much dialogue as it received.
Plo Koon's Martial Arts Skill + Speculation
Reti claims that Plo Koon's martial arts skill is "a major factor to consider in this match up". This was in-part due to Koon's feats in a comic wherein he beats up no-name thugs, and partly due to his own speculation that through sparring with a former padawan who was an expert in Teras Kasi, that Koon would have developed skill in the use of this unarmed fighting style as well.
1. Beating up no-name thugs is something plenty of Force Users have accomplished. Koon hasn't done anything special here.
2. Koon simply sparring with his apprentice doesn't allow us to speculate that he has also picked up her fighting disciplines. He'll be aware of Teras Kasi and it's mechanics, but that doesn't mean he can use it - there is no source for him being proficient in this fighting style. If we used this logic then anyone who has trained under Count Dooku from Qui-Gon Jinn to Savage Opress will have developed proficiency in Makashi. Obviously, neither of them have.
Not only is Koon only what I would call above average at best as a Force sensitive martial artist, but he's below both Maul and Dooku, who are both noted as having mastered numerous unarmed fighting disciplines each, and both have exceptional martial arts feats pertaining to both lightsaber combat and purely physical combat. Dooku routinely landing on Obi-Wan Kenobi, even going as far as to kick him unconscious in the Revenge of the Sith Comic, as well as finding martial success against the likes of Ventress and Anakin on several occasions. Darth Maul found high amounts of kick accuracy against Jinn and Kenobi during TPM even whilst facing the duo simultaneously, and opened Jinn up for a killing strike by striking him with the pommel of his saberstaff. In fact, in the TPM comic Maul actually kicks Obi-Wan into the reactor shaft opposed to Force pushing him. He also has feats like knocking Aayla Secura off of her feet with a kick within moments of engaging her and Mace Windu at the same time, and showed technical skill when disarming Savage Opress of his blade by targeting his wrist. It's safe to say either Sith outstrip Plo in this category, in terms of power, skill and knowledge.
And if I wanted to be especially harsh, which I may very well be later on in my analysis, I would bring up Plo's noticeably poor defence to martial attacks, having sustained kicks from both Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress during both of his fights with them. Maul and Dooku will certainly find equal success.
The final point to bring up before moving onto the other intros is Reti's false interpretation of Plo Koon's duel against Asajj Ventress. He claimed that Koon "controlled and dominated" his fight with Ventress, even despite his broken arm. Let's take a look at the full fight. Credit to the recently departed @okayalright_44 for the scans.
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Asajj attacks Plo.
Plo exchanges with her.
Ventress lands a kick. This contradicts the notion of Plo dominating or controlling anything.
Koon throws Ventress with a Force push, an impressive power feat on his part.
Plo manages to disarm Ventress of one of her blades after they resume fighting for an unknown amount of time. While this is highly impressive given the circumstances, we need to be fair to Ventress here - dual bladed combatants are somewhat more vulnerable to being disarmed of a blade than single bladed combatants, simply due to the lack of control they have over each blade while only using one arm for each. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of an opponent being disarmed of their blade despite being of a similar skill tier. A good example of this being the time Asajj Ventress herself disarmed a regular equal of hers, Obi-Wan Kenobi, an opponent who usually has an impenetrable defence, and hasn't been disarmed by Ventress in any other exchange.
http://youtu.be/cNiB1tk0wvo?t=1m25s
Verdict? It happens. It is more than possible for duelists of a similar skill level to disarm each other, and there are many examples of this I could draw on to aid my case. This alone doesn't contribute to the idea that Koon dominated or controlled Ventress.
And here is the nail in the coffin. After losing her saber, Asajj places an arm behind her back and then forces Koon against a railing. This both nullifies the negative impact of having only one usable arm for Koon, and again proves that this fight was highly contested.
Final conclusion? There wasn't one. Koon threw Ventress' detonator away, forcing her to abandon the fight. This could be seen as a desperation tactic on Koon's part. In my opinion, however, I see it as a strategic move more than anything, since Koon was more worried about the damage the detonator could rather than winning his duel with Ventress.
All in all, it was an impressive showing on Koon's part that shows he can definitely compete with Ventress - but let's not overlook the fact that the fight was both inconclusive, and that Koon's broken arm wasn't a hindrance throughout the entirety of the fight.
Shaak Ti
Ti's intro isn't exactly bad, but I wouldn't call it complete. Her skills are praised extensively and her methods of combat are described meticulously. Which is all well and good, but there's a noticeable lack of evidence being presented to support the praise Ti is receiving. Luckily for Reti, there are sources out there which speak to Ti's skill level being amongst the best in the Order (Star Wars Clone Wars Adventure providing her best accolade), however due to how freely this particular accolade is given out to notable duelists, reputation alone will not grant Ti the ability to equal either of her Sith opponents.
What is mentioned as a major piece of evidence for Shaak Ti's fighting skill is her feat of defeating eight MagnaGuards when surrounded by dozens of them. Here is the scene, for reference:
(When the scene changes to Anakin's story arc, skip to 10:12 to get back to the MagnaGuard fight)
As you can see, she is at first quickly overwhelmed by the sheer number of opponents, and finds herself surrounded and disarmed of her lightsaber. What's more, she sustains several strikes to the wrists and arms from the MagnaGuard's electrostaffs. Good resiliency on Ti's part? Yes. But that wouldn't help her in the slightest if those MagnaGuards were wielding lightsabers, or even swords of some description.
Now, credit where credit is due, after Ti gets her hands on an electrostaff of her own she begins destroying the MagnaGuards rapidly through use of acrobatics and speed. Although you'll notice that once her lightsaber returns to her hand the kill rate of the MagnaGuards drops instantly. She displays good cunning (her most renowned trait) and physical prowess here, nonetheless..
..but not lightsaber skill, and there's a clear reason why.
MagnaGuards are slaves to form. Lightsaber form, that is. As noted in the novel Labyrinth of Evil, MagnaGuards are trained in all seven forms of lightsaber combat by Grievous personally. They specialize in Jedi lightsaber combat, and their main function is to fight lightsaber wielding Jedi who utilise any of the seven lightsaber forms.
When they are met with unorthodox methods, their lack of programming to deal with this new type of threat prevents them from properly defending themselves - which is exactly what happened when Ti picked up one of their own electrostaffs and began impaling them rapidly, with no regard for form or her usual elegant use of Makashi.
Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - in the Jedi arts - made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen. This was often the failing of trained duelists, and it would be the failing of the Jedi Order.
It's almost as if James Luceno based this excerpt entirely off of Ti's fight against the army of MagnaGuards, because "ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly" is exactly how I view Ti's method of going about her assault on the MagnaGuards. To further reinforce this, we can talk about how a single MagnaGuard was able to stalemate Ti for half a minute in a simple, lightsaber vs staff confrontation. One MagnaGuard.
And as I noted previously, in the tunnel, as soon as Ti picked her lightsaber back up the MagnaGuards stopped dropping. Why? Because Shaak Ti slaughtering them wholesale was almost entirely based on their own limitations as combatants opposed to Ti's own fighting skill. If Ti was as a good a lightsaber duelist as she is claimed to be, she would have far less trouble dispatching a single MagnaGuard with her lightsaber.
Now, to solidify the skill disparity between Shaak Ti and her fellow Force Users in this scenario, we can take a look at how Maul managed to engage and rapidly defeat four MagnaGuards in the same amount of time it took Ti to kill just one.
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With that, we can comfortably deduce that Darth Maul is a more capable lightsaber duelist than Shaak Ti by an extensive margin, based on their performances against common opponents. Dooku being the best swordsman here just outclasses Ti to a higher margin, but I'll speak more of this later. And don't worry, there's more to back up my case than who can win in a MagnaGuard killing contest.
Dooku's intro was serviceable. Lacking some specific detail on his exact capabilities, but with it being a general outline of his abilities opposed to a detailed analysis, this is nothing to get rustled over. So I'll move onto my grievances with Maul's introduction.
Darth Maul
Again, Maul's introduction was serviceable, but there was a distinct point made about his supposedly poor defence that needs to be addressed. In order to do this I'm going to quote Antoine word for word and respond to each point.
“Maul has demonstrated his lacking defence on multiple occasions”
I think it's important to point out that this is just subjective commentary with little basis. Simply pointing out moments where a character has had their defence penetrated is not enough to claim they have a weak defence in general. It would not be difficult for me in the slightest to point out defensive missteps on Plo and Shaak's parts, which weren'r ever pointed out in the video - in fact, I already have. Plo's lack of defence to martial arts (an area the Sith excel in), and Ti's lack of defence to.. groups of MagnaGuards, which as we know Maul slaughtered wholesale when surrounded by them in a similar manner.
If Maul's defence is lacking, the Jedi team's defence must be gaping.
“He failed to defend himself against the pirate hondo”
This is in reference to Maul being shot in the leg by a blaster bolt after his and Savage's duel on Florrum against Kenobi. It shouldn't be difficult to realize that this isn't even worth mentioning, especially in a fight between four opponents who aren't even using blasters, but nevertheless, I will address it.
Let's consider the circumstances behind Maul being shot. There were dozens of pirates shooting at Maul, for a kick off, and with Obi-Wan following behind closely engaging them wouldn't be the smartest option. In fact, Savage having just lost an arm and being a relatively open target is reason enough for Maul to pursue a retreat, rather than assuming an offence or a more agile approach to avoiding fire outside of deflecting the odd bolt.
Secondly, TCW animation is a medium which displays far lower levels of speed for Force Users when compared to their showings in comics, novels, games and other forms of media. Not to mention, Maul was restricted by his far less agile enchanted legs created by Mother Talzin, which certainly wouldn't allow him to pull this off:
And while we're on the point of Maul's feats against blaster bolts, we can talk about how he has ran through hails of blaster fire from mercenaries, and has even casually side-stepped blaster bolts at close range, both feats being accomplished as a teenager.
He was preparing to make a break for the nearest hatchway when Mother Talzin called to him.“Don’t leave us, Maul!”He turned to see that she was on her feet, supported by one of the Nightsisters while the other was covering them.“Maul!” Talzin repeated.Confliction paralyzed him. Would his Master expect him to show sympathy? Even if the test had gone awry, Talzin might still be one of Sidious’ agents, and thus deserving of his help. Did the dark side of the Force ever permit self-sacrifice?Cursing through his gritted teeth, he put his right arm through the bow and hooked it over his shoulder, then ran through a hail of blaster bolts to reach Talzin. Heaving her over his shoulder, he raced for the safety of the adjacent bay, the two Nightsisters steps behind.
Restraint
Short sword in hand and evading bolts from Weequay and Siniteen blasters, Maul sprinted for the control room bulkhead.
Restraint
Maul opened the door and stepped into the office. Trezza was seated behind his massive desk. Kilindi stood before him. And Meltch Krakko stood on the far side of the room, near an open fireplace.
Kilindi gasped at the sight of Maul's blood-soaked body. Maul fixed his gaze on Krakko and walked straight toward him. Even though Maul was not carrying any weapons, Krakko drew his blaster and fired at him. Maul jerked his body to the left, dodged the blaster bolt, and kept walking toward Krakko. Krakko fired two more shots. Maul dodged those too before he grabbed Krakko's gun arm with one hand, and his neck with the other.
The Wrath of Darth Maul
Overall, Maul is of a class of being who should have no issue with avoiding blaster bolts, and I'd expect the same from anyone here. There are many other sources I can cite for Maul's ability to deflect and dodge torrents of blaster fire with no strain, and when you look at both in and out of universe circumstances, it's clear that Maul's showing against the pirates is a combination of a low showing, and negative circumstances. It's also an irrelevant lowblow to even bring this up in a debate regarding four beings who aren't using blasters.
“He took a number of embarrassing hits during his duel with Pre Viszla”
My answer to this is very simple. Good for Pre Viszla.
Yes, by EU standards, a non-Force User has no business engaging in a fight, much less an extensive lightsaber duel, with a Force User of Maul's class. However, within TCW this is fair game, apparently, as seen when Anakin engaged in an extensive fight with Clovis, a non-Force sensitive politician IIRC, who even kicked Anakin several feet across the room at one point.
The point is, just because Pre Viszla can do something, doesn't mean someone else can necessarily replicate it. Are we not forgetting that Viszla found a similar amount of success against Obi-Wan Kenobi? The guy is obviously unique amongst non-Force users. Unless you can show me Shaak Ti or Plo Koon landing "embarrassing hits" on someone of Darth Maul's calibre (you can't), then this argument is irrelevant.
“And let us not forget how his first meeting with Kenobi ended”
In reference to Maul's famous bisection. Really? A moment where Maul wasn't even paying attention to Kenobi as per in-universe quotes, because he had won the fight, is what you're using against him? A moment where by all logic Maul should have been able to react to Kenobi brazenly leaping over him but didn't due to what is commonly referred to as Plot Induced Stupidity? A moment which regardless of anything else, has nothing to do with lightsaber or martial defence and everything to do with a combination out-of universe circumstance, or character "arrogance"?
Simply put, another horrific piece of evidence to use against Maul in an attempt at claiming he has a lacking defence. None of these examples apply to Ti or Koon in any capacity, and in some cases are just downright irrelevant altogether.
Antoine did manage to later admit that there were circumstances behind two of these occurrences, and that Maul being hit wasn't entirely based on his own lack of skill. Which is all well and good, but the fact alone that these points were even referenced necessitates their need to be addressed.
Now, I'm not saying Maul's defence is perfect. Nobody's is. But I wouldn't even consider his defence a weak point in general terms or in relation to this match. It's a common misconception that because Maul is an offensive fighter, he must inherently have a poor defence. This evidently isn't the case as his lapses in defence do not occur any more frequently than any other duelist around his level, and the most "embarrassing" defensive lapses that can be brought up are easily countered and filed away. Anyway, time to move onto the meat of the discussion...
Initial Summary
After the character introductions, the duo came to a conclusion on how they viewed each character in relation to each other, and how they stack up from strongest to weakest.
They had Dooku at the top, in terms of lightsaber skill and Force power. Sounds fair to me. However, they made two mistake simultaneously right after this. The first was-
1. Shaak Ti and Plo Koon being on-par as duelists.
This simply isn't true. Plo Koon is a nice tier above Ti as a duelist, and is closer to Maul than anyone else in this match. My reasoning for this is due to him having blatantly superior combat feats - in fact, Ti even has what I call "anti-feats", which is using a character's loss to justify how limited their ability is. I usually don't look at feats this way, as a "loss" for Ti could just be considered a "win" for whoever beat her, which would just bump up that opponent instead of bringing down Ti.
However, in a universe like Star Wars where there is a clearly set hierarchy of dueling skill, losing to a certain adversary can very well limit how one can view the character in question. And in this case, Plo Koon isn't the type of duelist who needs over 20 seconds to dispatch a single MagnaGuard. He's more along the lines of someone who can contend with Asajj Ventress with a broken arm, or fight evenly with the physical behemoth that is Savage Opress, who contrary to popular belief is a highly capable fighter in comparison to even the fighters in this scenario (save for perhaps Dooku).
Their second mistake was-
2. Darth Maul is the weakest fighter here by a slight margin. Their reasons for this are:
- Maul's use of mid-battle tactics are "basic"
- Maul has a disinclination to utilise offensive Force powers
- Maul has a lackluster defence
The latter reason I've already covered. Let's begin covering why Maul's battle tactics aren't basic.
It should be apparent from The Phantom Menace alone that Maul is a tactical thinker. A basic thinker doesn't lead Qui-Gon Jinn and his apprentice around a battlefield at his own discretion in order to separate and gain an advantage over their duo.
Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi.
- Star Wars Fact File 001
Qui-Gon was already up and he rushed toward Maul, but Obi-Wan reached him first. Maul spun his lightsaber, deflecting his opponents' strikes as he backed through the open doorway. He launched a high kick that connected with Obi-Wan's jaw. As Obi-Wan fell back and rolled across the floor, Maul backed up, luring Qui-Gon toward the power generator. Obi-Wan got up fast and sprinted to rejoin the fight.
That's it. Come to me.
Qui-Gon swung. Maul parried and swung back fast, clipping Qui-Gon's blade and then Obi-Wan's. The double-bladed lightsaber was a blur. Maul backed onto an inspection platform that was suspended high over the generator's deep shaft, and kicked off, backflipping to one of the many catwalks that spanned different levels in the shaft. Both Jedi leaped after him, and the fight proceeded along the catwalk.
Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you.
Maul sensed the laser doors opening behind him. Qui-Gon was unrelenting in his ongoing attack, but Maul parried every blow. Qui-Gon swung at Maul's legs, but the blade swept under his feet as Maul jumped backward. Maul continued moving back, leading Qui-Gon into the hallway. They passed the first four security barriers before the doors activated and shut.
- The Wrath of Darth Maul
A basic thinker doesn't throw away fighting strategies on a whim and replace them with brand new ones in seconds, just because he was unhappy with the way his first strike was parried.
The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.
If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.
- Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
A basic thinker may opt to meet an opponent like Savage Opress head-on in a contest of strength.. like a certain Kel Dor we all know and love.
What a basic thinker may not opt to do is disarm Savage Opress with a wrist-lock after deflecting a couple of his power strikes off to the side.
I think I've made my point abundantly clear - Maul is in no way basic in his use of battle-tactics. He remains unpredictable, and always seeks to match an opponent in their worst position instead of meeting them head-on.
The next point that has desperately needed to be debunked for possibly years, is the notion that Maul doesn't like using the Force offensively. This isn't true even when considering Maul's material from The Phantom Menace and prior, never mind what he was to offer after his return during the Clone Wars.
For starters I will say this - yes, Maul does "prefer" a physical victory, in that he generally seeks to begin and end fights physically. However, just because Maul is a physical machine with something of an inclination for dueling, does not necessarily mean it is his ultimate, primary focus, with everything else taking a back seat.
Maul has made use of projectiles extensively in duels, such as when he hurled debris at Darsha Assant during their duel.
The Sith apprentice launched a simultaneous attack, using the Force to throw a rusty power-wrench and a bucket of old fasteners from a worktable at her as he launched himself forward, lightsaber dancing a variant of a teras kasi Death Weave.
- Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Or when he and Kenobi traded projectiles during their first duel.
They fought their way back toward the laser-riddled service passage, past Qui-Gon's still form, and into a tangle of vent tubes and circuit housings. Steam burst from ruptured pipes, and the air was filled with the acrid smell of scorched wiring. Darth Maul began to use his command of the Force to fling heavy objects at Obi-Wan, trying to throw him off balance, to disable him, to disrupt the flow of his attack. Obi-Wan responded in kind, and the air was filled with deadly missiles. Lightsabers flicked right and left to ward off the objects, and the clash of errant metal careening off stone walls formed an eerie shriek in the gloom.
- The Phantom Menace
There's also the climax of the TPM duel where Maul opts to finish Kenobi by telekinetically launching him into the reactor core. Tactical ingenuity and use of the Force? Surely we can't be talking about the same Darth Maul as the one in this video!
Alas, we are. And there's more.
Maul has routinely asserted his telekinetic dominance over Obi-Wan. We've all seen him ragdoll Kenobi during the Florrum duel followed by blasting Kenobi through the cave, but there is also the showing below:
Referring back to his fight with the MagnaGuards, Maul actually opts to Force push one of them whilst destroying the others with his saber.
Maul even opted to cut his fight with Grievous short by removing the general from the battlefield entirely.
Overall, Maul has absolutely no qualms about integrating telekinesis into his lightsaber combat, whether he's using it to hurl projectiles or his opponent. There will be more analysis regarding Maul's use of the Force in comparison to Ti and Koon but for now, you at least know that he does use telekinesis in combat, and frequently at that.
To round off their initial assessment, Reti and Antoine detailed why they believe that Maul and Dooku would be at a "massive" disadvantage in terms of teamwork, whilst Koon and Ti would be perfectly in-sync, with their styles meshing together perfectly. While I can't say they aren't half-right, I can say they are half-wrong, in that they ran with the "teamwork" facet of this fight, strapped it to a starfighter and rocketed it way out into orbit. Everything they said regarding the impact teamwork would have on this fight was completely exaggerated, and they blatantly put little thought or research into how Maul and Dooku would cope with being near each other, or rather, how they plan to keep away from each other.
Firstly, they heavily praise Koon and Ti's teamwork due to them being highly familiar with each other. Cool. They obviously won't get in each other's way. Will this give them an inherent advantage over the Sith?... not really. I'm not sure about most of you guys, but from where I'm sitting, 90% of group fights end with teammates splitting up to do their own thing. A relevant example of this being when Plo Koon decides to fight Savage Opress by himself whilst leaving Bruu Jun-Fan and Ko Solok to fight Darth Maul. No attempt at teamwork whatsoever, just a simple "you get him, I'll get him" approach to combat.
Another relevant example being when Darth Maul and Count Dooku - the duo in question - were surrounded by not two, not three, but four Jedi masters, and managed to fight without hindering each other in the slightest. The presence of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu alone presents more of a physical challenge than Ti and Koon, due to them both being inferior to the former two. But Aayla Secura and Tipplee (bless her) were also accompanying these Jedi to make matters worse!
Not only is everyone's general approach in group duels to branch off and pull your own weight separately, but Maul and Dooku are experts at befuddling and separating duos, a facet of their combat skill I was amazed to find was just flat out ignored in the video. I already presented Maul's showing against Jinn and padawan Kenobi, and hopefully everyone reading this is well aware of Dooku's ability to combat the Skywalker/Kenobi duo on even ground for extensive periods of time. Other examples of this ability for Maul include:
- His focus on kicking the weaker member of any duo repeatedly in order to off-balance and separate the duo, such as when he kicked Ko Solok when fighting him and Bruu Jun-Fan, or when he kicked Aayla Secura off her feet whilst engaging Mace Windu.
Another example of this from Dooku includes:
- His ability to separate the duo of Tholme and Sora Bulq by utilising a combination of telekinesis, lightning, and the environment, taking the stronger duelist out of the equation in order to prey on the weaker one
And with that I think we can conclude that not only will Dooku and Maul have no issues keeping separate from each other, but will also be able to keep Koon and Ti separate. And if the fights I've presented are anything to go by, Ti and Koon will likely oblige.
Now, we move onto the category of physical capabilities.
Physical Capabilities
First off, when discussing Plo's physical stats and weaknesses his mask was brought up by the collaborators, which is an obvious weak point for anyone who either knows about it or has read the Sith Hunters comic, where Savage Opress rips it off, forcing Koon into incapacitation. Reti states the only reason Koon had his masked ripped off is because he was "distracted" by the fact he had to tell a clone "look out". I think this is just being far too generous to the Kel Dor. Firstly, if we want to talk about "distractions", it could have been mentioned somewhere in the video that Savage Opress was fighting a squad of clone troopers while contending with Koon, as shown when he dodges and deflects blaster bolts while fighting Plo at the same time and even takes a step out of combat to release a Force Wave.
In the last scan where Koon is supposedly distracted, he has enough awareness about him to even try and cut Savage's right leg. I'm sorry, but when you have a squad of clone troopers backing you, there is no excuse except from a lapse in defence for having your mask ripped off. Savage was visibly just slightly getting the edge over Koon in the end, although the fight was inconclusive, and without the mask we can't know how it would have ended (well, the other Jedi reinforcements would have arrived, so it'd of been inconclusive anyway).
Next, at this point in the video and throughout the rest of it, it's frequently highighted that Ti has a form of echolocation through her head-montrals, that allows her to survey the space around her like she had a "sphere of vision around her". This may amplify her Force sense to some degree but in terms of how it's actually helped her.. it's been nothing more than a passive buff at best. And the most likely reason for this is that the Force grants this ability anyway. Maul already has access to an identical sphere of vision through the Force, that can't be any worse than Ti's montrals.
Two of the droids— Rapier and Chain, he silently named them— were within his field of vision. The other two— Cudgel and Hachete— were not, being behind him. It did not matter; through his awareness of the Force he could sense their movements as plainly as if he had eyes in the back of his head.
- Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Although their mimetic suits rendered Krakko and the Roadians practically invisible, Maul had no difficulty sensing their exact positions behind him. He could have shot at each one of them with his eyes closed, but that would have been against the rules that Sidious and Trezza had established.
- The Wrath of Darth Maul
Therefore, her echolocation while cool for her species, is nothing special in comparison to the passive senses every other Force user pretty much already have access to.
Another problem that I found with this section was when they highlighted Dooku's potential for waning stamina during duels. However, I've always found this strange. Just because a character is shown to become tired at some point doesn't necessarily mean their stamina is poor in comparison to most others, and a character becoming fatigued in one fight doesn't necessarily translate over to every other bout.
What I mean with the first point is, Count Dooku doesn't have poor stamina. His stamina is what I would call either good, or above average. Yes, he's old physically. However, so are powerhouses like Yoda and Sidious - yet they are capable of superhuman feats that even a RotS Anakin Skywalker wouldn't be capable of on his best day. This is because 99% of their ability to carry out superhuman feats comes from their ability to draw on Force energies in order to bolster themselves, and the same holds true for Dooku. With younger combatants, sometimes their own physicality can set a good base for their physical ability on top of their augmentation, but it's mostly ambiguous as to how much this really affects combat. Judging by feats is indefinitely the best way to judge a character's physicality in Star Wars, not their age, because Force Augmentation is rooted in ones Force reserves.
Back on point - Dooku has been capable of sustaining himself through extensive duels with the Skywalker/Kenobi duo on multiple occasions. Not only is this duo renowned as being pretty much unstoppable together, but Anakin himself is a physical powerhouse in terms of strength and speed, especially in comparison to Plo Koon and Shaak Ti. There's no reason to suggest that Koon or Ti wouldn't also be flattened from the amount of fatigue dueling those two opponents would cause, and if anything Dooku taking as long as he does to get tired fighting them is more of an endurance feat for him than a demonstration of poor stamina.
The main point being - Dooku's stamina isn't an issue. His Force reserves are colossal, and his endurance feats speak for themselves.
It's finally mentioned that Maul's cybernetic legs are a weak point in this fight. My simple answer to this is.. no, not really. The only time they have ever short circuited is when Sidious, whose lightning is far better than Plo Koon's for reasons that are obvious, fried them. Outside of that, Maul took a sustained blast from Dooku's lightning and minutes later, his legs and self in general were functioning just fine. You may say Dooku was holding back - but consider this. When Dooku attacked Obi-Wan Kenobi and Tiplee with his lightning, both of them straining to hold him off, he was only using one arm and appeared quite casual about the display of power.
Compare this to how he approached torturing Maul, where he utilises both hands and shocks Maul long and hard enough for him to actually acknowledge pain and have smoke come off:
Dooku clearly wasn't hitting Maul with everything he has, with the intention of killing him, but he clearly let him have it, with a stream of lightning that was likely to be a lethal dose for less durable beings, like the numerous Nightbrothers Dooku kill later on in the series.
Point being - Plo Koon's electric judgement/lightning is irrelevant. Not only will it not have the desired effect on either Maul or his cybernetics, due to it's highest known power output being a blast knocking out a non-Force sensitive, but Plo has never used this against another capable Force sensitive such as Savage Opress (who, being distracted by clones, was quite open to such a blast), or Asajj Ventress (who Plo managed to hit with telekinesis). Chances are he won't even have the inclination to use it, but worst case scenario? It'll be an annoyance at best. In fact it may only prompt Maul to draw more heavily on his anger and therefore become more dangerous in the process.
Physical Capabilities Verdict
After some discussion the creators come to a conclusion on how they feel each character stacks up to one another. I believe they started off by pointing out that Maul clearly had an advantage in this area - which is true. Going by a comparison of feats, Maul is stronger, faster, more durable, and has higher levels of endurance than Plo and Shaak. But there were a few slip ups.
Shaak Ti's stamina and speed were supposedly on-par with Maul's own. Incorrect. Shaak Ti has never had to endure the physical hardships that Maul endured during his training under Sidious, and her speed feats aren't rivalling Maul's either. While I believe these aren't particularly important edges, if anyone is to have an edge, it should be Maul.
When Maul was between the ages of 7-10, he was one day knocked out by his training droid, Deenine. When Maul awoke, he was in the middle of nowhere on the inhospitable lava planet - Mustafar. He had been left with no provisions, no weapons.. nothing. His first instinct was to follow a group of Mustafarians, kill them, and take their food and supplies in order to survive. Maul, using these tactics, endured the harshness of Mustafar for 17 days. He only went to sleep twice. And he wasn't even 10 years old at the time.
It's also worth mentioning that he had two broken ribs and a snapped left arm prior to and during this time period.
[Click spoiler block to view quote]
Maul, near the end of his time training at the Orsis Academy (aged 15+, no more than 18 IIRC), took part in the "Gora", an infamous challenge in which a cadet is left in inhospitable jungle conditions with nothing more a vibroblade and the local predatory wildlife. He is to survive for seven days, while killing a variety of large predators constantly. Not only did Maul survive - he had the time of his life, going as far as to kill these predators for sport.
[Click spoiler block to view quote]
After Maul's training at the Orsis Academy, he returned to Mustafar with Sidious. He spent the next fourteen days enduring the hardest tests Sidious had ever set out for him. He didn't just pass them - he "destroyed" them.
[Click spoiler block to view quote]
However.. despite Maul's success, these tests were just preliminaries for a much harder test.. the actual test for Maul to become a Sith Lord. The fourteen hardest days of his entire life served as a warm up for what was to come, with no rest in between.
So Maul does survive a month, in inhospitable conditions and extreme temperatures, whilst fending off nigh-constant waves of attacks from Assassin droids.
After the point above, Maul takes refuge in the cave until Sidious comes for him and concludes his trial.
I think my point has been made clear. There are people out there who can rival Maul's levels of endurance and pain tolerance, and Shaak Ti is not one of them. If you need further proof, I suggest buying the novel Lockdown, where Maul practically runs a gauntlet of gladiatorial bouts that are rigged to have him killed. He gets little rest and recovery in between bouts, and to make matters worse was not allowed to sustain himself through the Force, as per Sidious' orders, so his ability to carry on fighting was based mostly on his own physical endurance.
For speed, moving faster than a droid can perceive, appearing to be striking everywhere simultaneously, forming a whirling vortex of energy out his lightsaber blade, and carrying out a 10,000 move lightsaber exercise, one hundred times per day during his training, which equates to one million separate moves being carried out in one day, are all speed feats superior to anything Shaak has carried out. I don't put too much stock into speed affecting fights between Force Users unless there really is a noteworthy gap, but again, if anyone is to take an edge here, it would be Maul.
Reti does admit that Maul is stronger than Shaak physically, but claims her echolocation balances this advantage out. But, as we know, Maul has the equivalent of this ability anyway, so Maul's strength advantage is in fact just that - an advantage.
Antoine acknowledges that while Plo Koon's mask is a vulnerability, "it has only been exploited once". Unfortunately this is a fallacious argument. Just because something has happened "once" doesn't mean that it can't happen again, and considering that Maul was standing over Plo himself as he slowly died out without his mask, I'd say there is a high chance that he could successfully target the mask in the same way Savage did.
And finally there was this quote:
“Neither Dooku or Maul are going to be ripping off his mask without losing an arm in the process. After all, Shaak Ti would have Plo’s back.”
All I really have to say to this is: Savage still had his arm afterwards.
And with that, physical capabilities are covered. As it stands, Maul and Dooku are faster than their opponents, Maul also being the best in every other physical trait. Dooku's stamina is more than serviceable. Plo Koon's mask is a considerable weak point for him in this fight which was an aspect of this fight the video blatantly overlooked or ignored, and, Shaak Ti's echolocation is nothing special.
With the natural order of things restored on that end, let's get to the truly fun part...
Force Abilities
When giving a run down of each combatants power, as usual, we got a general rundown of what they can do but nothing too specific. I only had one grievance with this section, which was in relation to Reti's interpretation of Shaak Ti's feat of taming the entirety of Felucia's population whilst dueling Galen Marek.
It's blatantly untrue that Ti was influencing the minds, or in any way influencing, the Felucians. This isn't mentioned in the novel, comic or game, to my knowledge, the only source I haven't got access to being the latter. What is mentioned is that Ti holds control over the Sarlacc, which she was able to hold her sway over even when dueling Galen Marek. An impressive power showing, to be sure, but diluted when you account for the fact that Shaak Ti was not only on a powerful nexus of Force energy on Felucia, which would amplify her ability to draw on the Force, but the planet was actually tilted towards the light-side because of her continued presence in the area - meaning Galen Marek's strength was actually being sapped during his fight with Shaak Ti, while her own was being bolstered. From The Force Unleashed novelization:
She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance.There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it, to remind it of its proper place in the universe. The light side had held sway for far too long. It was time to redress the issue. Killing Shaak Ti would do that quite nicely.
With this in mind, Ti directly Force pushing Galen is diluted by the fact he was in a weakened state, because of both the nexus alignment as well as the fact he fought a gauntlet of Force sensitive Felucians on his way to confront Ti.
Now.. onto the inevitable criticisms I have regarding how they chose to describe Maul's use of the Force.
I'm once again going to be quoting Antoine directly and countering his points individually.
“Darth Maul is not known for his command over the Force”
The misconception that someone needs to be renowned in some way or another for their command over the Force in order to have one, needs to die an immediate death, Versus viewers. Reputation and preconceived notions that surround characters like Maul leads to aspects of their combat - like the Force - being underrated. Fact is, Maul is both very powerful and very skilled in his use of the Force, and it's clear Antoine and Reti haven't done enough research to claim otherwise.
“As we have already discussed, he is a fighter focused on the physical”
Again, an outdated concept. Already covered above.
“Having no interest in developing his skills has led to an extremely low level of variety”
Their mistake here was overlooking the more subtle ways Maul has used the Force. He doesn't have overt power showings outside of his telekinesis, like lightning or alter environment, or immense command of sorcery or telepathy - but during his time as an assassin he developed a range of stealth-based Force powers which definitely speak to a high level of Force mastery and variety.
Force Concealment
Maul conceals his presence in the Force from Darsha Assant.
Maul quickly faded back into the shadows of the underground thorough fare and watched them pass. Both matched the descriptions he had been given by the Baragwin bartender. Excellent. With any luck, they would lead him to his prey. He followed them at a safe distance, making use of shadows and concealment when it was available and trusting to the cloaking power of the Force when it was not.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Maul appeared to have concealed his presence in the Force from Qui-Gon Jinn prior to their duel on Tattooine, as well as to Kenobi who only became aware his presence from a verbal warning, even despite Maul being in the middle of a duel.
Force Cloak / Invisibility
Maul cloaks himself and walks past a guard with ridiculous ease.
Maul kept his cowl up and his lightsaber clipped as he reentered the building. Fortunately there was a human officer at the checkpoint , asking those coming and going to state their business. It was ridiculously easy for Maul to cloak himself in the Force and thus slip by the dim-witted fellow.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Gravity Manipulation
DISCIPLINE. Discipline is all. It conquers pain. It conquers fear. Most important of all, it conquers failure. Discipline is what allowed Darth Maul to survive a thirty -meter fall into a pile of rubble and debris: the discipline of his teräs käsi fighting skills, which gave him complete control over his body, allowing him to utilize midair acrobatics to direct his fall and so avoid striking ornamental projections, ledges, and other potentially lethal obstructions; the discipline of the dark side, which let him manipulate gravity itself, slowing his descent enough to hit the ground without becoming a lifeless bag of broken bones and ruptured organs. Even half stunned by the unexpected explosion of his speeder bike, Maul was able to aim his falling body in such a way as to survive.
Darth Maul Shadow Hunter
Cloud Mind
Maul was telepathically clouding Obi-Wan Kenobi's mind during their fight on Naboo, making him harder to counter.
Obi-Wan had never been in such a lightsaber battle before. So this is a Sith Lord, he thought fleetingly as he dodged and leaped. It was taking every skill he knew just to stay alive. The Sith Lord seemed to cloud Obi-Wan's use of the Force, making it harder to sense his opponent's moves and counter them in time.
The Phantom Menace Junior Novelisation
(credit to ShootingNova for the quote)
Since Reti went into detail regarding Plo Koon's telepathic abilities, I found it strange that Maul's were for the most part left out of the video. His showings from The Phantom Menace and prior alone are already highly impressive.
[Click spoiler block to see material]
Telepathy
Now, I don't want to turn this thread into a respect thread worth of material, but the above material should be enough to convince anyone that Maul did indeed have an interest in developing new Force abilities, and he had a variety of them at his disposal.
“Compared to the likes of Dooku and Koon, who are both able to lift many objects at once and manipulate them with strength, speed and precision, Maul seems insignificant”
When watching the video, you'll notice that during this particular excerpt a clip of Count Dooku lifting over one hundred tons worth of obelisk stones is played... followed by Plo Koon throwing a table at an opponent.
Really? Dooku's obelisk feat is in the same ballpark as Koon throwing a table, and throwing a table is beyond Maul's capabilities?
I'm sure that isn't the literal impression they wished to give off, but the fact alone that they lacked enough material on Koon to include anything better than throwing a table, is indicative of the fact that Koon really isn't as advanced a telekinetic as they make him out to be. More than this, but Dooku himself outclasses Plo as a telekinetic fighter, and I'll cover this in some more detail later on. However, for now, we'll talk about why Maul's use of telekinesis is not insignificant in comparison to Koon's.
Koon can throw a table? Maul can levitate a large boulder over an eight meter distance without the need for effort, gesture or direct sight of the boulder.
Moves a large boulder eight or so meters, without gesturing or looking at it.
On Railtiir, at the site of what had only recently been the Bartokks' fortress, Darth Maul used the Force to lift a heavy boulder from a pile of rubble. Maul had used the Sith Infiltrator's sensors to scan the fortress ruins for any sign of C-3PX. The sensors penetrated deep below the collapsed floors and fallen walls, searching for any trace of metal that might belong to the golden assassin droid. Now, Maul found himself sifting through the area of what had been a chamber near the fortress's dungeon. Maul did not watch the boulder as it levitated away through the air, and he ignored the loud thud, eight meters away, that sounded as he released the boulder from his power.
Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul
That showing was well before Maul's telekinetic prime, to boot. Let's talk about his showings during that period of his life.
From dozens of feet away, no direct sight of his target, and evidently little effort, Maul chokes, levitates high in the air, and snaps the neck of a Falleen 180 degrees.
Without the need for effort, gesture or concentration of any kind, Maul chokes and suspends Duchess Satine in the air while monologuing to Kenobi.
Maul casually snaps a being's leg.
Maul engineers a fake heart attack in an elderly being in front of his family, friends and other members of his tribe, and when he is done convincing them of it's authenticity, he crushes the man's heart internally. (Definitely better than throwing a table)
Now, Maul isn't lifting a hundred ton's worth of obelisks like Dooku, but neither are Plo Koon or Shaak Ti. They also lack showings of telekinetic precision to even match Maul. Yes, potential youtube viewer or fellow Viner, the slave-to-physical-combat, Force-power-ignoring Darth Maul is in fact a more skilled and precise telekinetic than either Shaak Ti or Plo Koon. Their feats of collapsing an unstable cave entrance with one hand, or sneakily tying Grievous' cloak to a maglev train, are incomparable to the levels of precision Maul has demonstrated with Force choke and crush, and even his more rudimentary Force techniques such as lifting heavy objects were being done without need for sight, gesture or effort towards the target over a decade before his prime telekinetic prime in the The Clone Wars.
“But what he has that they lack is a more primal, animalistic approach”
Correct, to an extent. Maul is much better than Shaak Ti or Plo Koon at breaking things, although animalistic and primal isn't how I would describe it. He just demonstrates more power than them, is all. How can we demonstrate this disparity in power? Well, there's the fact that while Plo Koon required the aid of Tholme and Qui-Gon Jinn in order to collapse a cavern/large sections of a cave...
Maul is able to collapse a similarly sized tunnel, built with stronger foundations, all by himself.
Antoine stated that Kenobi "is notorious for having a weak Force shield", which is why Maul can so easily break Kenobi's shields. This is only true because Kenobi's Force shields are only weak in comparison to Maul and Dooku's power. He isn't weak in a general sense, and Ti or Koon would not be able to choke Kenobi through sheer power. The best they could hope for is a Force push against such an opponent. And let's not forget that Kenobi, in his own right, is a powerful being.
Years before his prime, Kenobi blasts Durge to pieces using Force Repulse. Durge is a being durable enough to no-sell hundreds of blaster bolts battering against his unarmored torso, as well as stand in lava without damage and survive blunt force impacts like being thrown across a gallery and into a skycar by General Grievous - so Kenobi not only breaking through his durable body, but blowing it apart, is an exceptional power feat, and it happened years before his prime in Revenge of the Sith.
So, not only is dominating Kenobi's Force shields in a choking or ragdolling manner a feat that only Maul and Tyranus so far have displayed, but it's a feat that Ti and Koon are plainly incapable of due to their own inferior power showings in the Force.
Force Verdict
So now we're at the conclusion drawing phase regarding Force powers. Naturally there were a few conclusions I disagreed with. Whether there is just a discrepancy in wording, or there really is a substantial disagreement in some areas, I'm not sure, but these conclusions shall be addressed regardless!
“Darth Tyranus is clearly the most powerful Force Wielder of the four, with Plo Koon and Shaak Ti falling just behind him”
This was a clear overstatement of Koon and Ti's Force abilities in my opinion. I mean, when you compare their raw power showings the only comparison to be made is the one where comparatively Dooku exceeds them by a couple of tiers.
As we know, Koon's best power feats include collapsing a cavern with aid of two other Jedi, collapsing a relatively small cave entrance by himself casually, and directly TKing Ventress. He's also noted as being one of the most powerful Jedi to ever live, but, come on, that isn't quantifiable in any way.
Ti's power showings include launching large pieces of debris at Grievous during the Battle of Hypori while fatigued, directly TKing an earlier iteration of Galen Marek in a light-sided Force rich environment (although she was controlling the Sarlacc at the same time, so it somewhat balances out), and utilising Kinetite.
Let's compare this to Dooku (credit to ShootingNova for all following material). Telekinetically, we can start with Dooku lifting at least one hundred tons worth of obelisk stones:
This alone exceeds anything Ti or Plo have done, and shows that he is their clear superior. He has also casually collapsed a large bridge:
And has completely ragdolled/handily Force choked relatively powerful Force sensitives such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, Quinlan Vos and at times, even Ventress, as well as an early Savage Opress.
Dooku's use of Force lightning also clearly outclasses Plo and Ti's respective uses of electric judgement/kinetite. He's knocked out Force sensitives such as Anakin Skywalker, Asajj Ventress and Sora Bulq with his lightning and telekinesis combined, and has killed entire groups of Kiffar/Nightbrothers. His lightning was even sufficient to subdue Savage Opress even in short bursts. In terms of energy resistance, Savage Opress treats blaster bolts like BB gun pellets, so Dooku being able to subdue him repeatedly is an exceptional display of power. I don't want to clog this thread too much so here is the link to a thread where all of these feats can be sourced.
“Even with his technical superiority, everything he can throw at the two can at least be defended against”
While I can agree that they can defend against Dooku's Force powers by virtue of their own decent power and ability to hold his lightning at bay with their lightsabers, it's absolutely worth noting that they will inevitably be tagged by something. Dooku is the pinnacle of Force-lightsaber combat fluidity. He makes astonishing use of the environment in order to off-balance opponents with projectiles effortlessly, launch opponents out of the arena while holding their partner at bay with a kick, frequently using pieces of the environment to trap opponents, thus incapacitating them, not to mention the way he manages to chain lightning into these sequences for added damage. Recently he's even shown a willingness to simply pull an opponent onto his lightsaber blade. Dooku should be more than capable of exploiting these two opponents.
Consider this - Plo Koon is notorious for performing poorly against martially-oriented opponents, right? So let's say Dooku can land a good amount of kicks on him. Shaak Ti's preferred fighting forms are Form II, Makashi (which Dooku is the greatest master of in dueling history, giving him an inherent advantage) and Ataru (which Dooku knows every weakness of and can exploit with utter ease via dueling Qui-Gon Jinn countless times, as per the Revenge of the Sith novelisation, which again, gives him a large advantage over her).
Can we not see something like this happening at some point in the match?
Now I'm not saying Dooku would go as far as to simply shatter Shaak Ti's Force shields. But, given the fact he has dismantled a far superior duo in the form of Anakin and Obi-Wan utilising such techniques, which Plo and Ti will both be inherently easier to exploit with given the disadvantages recognized above, I have no qualms about stating that Dooku can give them both hell in the Force-combat department alone.
“Maul is last in this category. He is powerful enough to throw some good hits at the Jedi, but he rarely relies on such methods, always preferring a physical victory. Even if he did fall back on his telekinetic power, he can’t stand up to either master in this area.”
Now I think we can safely conclude that this just isn't true given the assessment I gave above. Maul's technical proficiency with telekinesis, which has allowed him to levitate large boulders without the need for any effort, gesture or attention, Force choke targets with either minimal effort or none at all, ragdoll prominent Jedi such as Obi-Wan mid-combat, snap bones, orchestrate heart attacks, and form powerful waves of omnidirectional or direct energy, as well as his power showings like collapsing a large tunnel are enough to suggest he outweighs both Jedi in every telekinetic capacity.
However, if that wasn't enough there is more to be presented. Under extremely negative circumstances that allow for no decent amount of concentration (having to run, being shot at, and having just had his leg shot off), Maul pulled a large shuttle off of a cliff.
In the past Antoine has asserted that this feat was only accomplished because of Maul's "heightened state of mind" and that it isn't consistent with his usual power levels. However, given the fact Maul couldn't have possibly of been amping himself due to a lack of anger or augmentation being present in the feat, the fact he does have comparable showings, and the fact the circumstances in this feat would serve to balance out a Force rage amp anyway, it's safe to say it is irrefutable.
Next up, we have Maul's ability to blast dozens of soldiers (with Savage helping it would amount to roughly 50 soldiers each give or take) and droids through the air, another power feat that hasn't been replicated by either Jedi despite them having ample opportunity to do so throughout their appearances in clone wars era material.
And hell, just to put the nail in the coffin, we can talk about how at the age of fifteen, Maul nearly collapsed a barracks with a Force scream because he accidentally pricked himself, and was already in a bad mood from a sparring match.
Its circuitous innards exposed, the combat vibroblade rested on a low table, alongside a small tool kit. Electrodriver in hand, Maul was working feverishly on the knife’s ultrasonic vibration generator, intent on overriding the built-in arrestor to supply the blade with greater slashing power. If he wasn’t permitted to use the Force, then he would use everything short of it to satisfy the rage inside him; to gut every living thing he encountered during the coming Gora solo. Bathe in the blood he would shed, feast on warm flesh… Merely imagining it set his fingers trembling, and abruptly the tool slipped from its tenuous hold in the socket and stabbed deeply into the palm of his opposite hand, opening a small wound and bursting the dam of his pent-up emotion. Maul’s clenched right hand slammed down on the table, shattering its surface, and the vibroblade took flight, nearly impaling itself in his head. Straightening, he bared his filed teeth and tensed his body, close to loosing a scream that would have brought the barracks down around him.
- Restraint
This was during a period of time where Maul was stated as growing in power gradually as time passed. So while Force Screams are typically involuntary powers, the damage they cause represents raw potential damage output, so take the substantially more powerful version of Maul who appears 19 years after this feat, and you can begin to piece together just how much more powerful he is than either Shaak Ti or Plo Koon.
Ant and Reti finish off by stating that :
"It’s a case of a 9 [Dooku] and a 6 [Maul] not matching up with two 8s [Jedi]”
I'm not going to attempt to put something as wild and variable as Force power into a simple number, but if the two Jedi in this fight are to be considered "eights" in comparison to their opponents... well, let's just say that in order to accurately place either Sith we're going to need a scale that goes higher than ten.
Equipment
Now, this section of versus videos always irks me for one reason. Antoine and Reti managed to give me two this time around, regrettably.
The first reason being that lightsaber hilt designs don't matter in the slightest.Seriously.
There would be no point in even having this section because of how negligible it is, had it not been for the inclusion of Maul's saberstaff in this fight. Which brings me onto my next point.
Antoine and Reti chose to give current Darth Maul - who uses the single bladed Darksaber currently - his saberstaff. For what reason, I'm not entirely sure. If I wanted to be especially bitter, I would make the claim that they did this deliberately in order to detriment Maul's chance of success in their video. Because they didn't have a single good thing to say about Maul having a saberstaff. Not one thing. As if his insta-short-out-legs weren't enough.
"While not a weakness in standard duels, the movements of the double sided saber are also problematic for this 2v2 scenario, as Maul has to swing both blades around in wide, sweeping arcs to effectively use the weapon. This is not going to give much room for Dooku to maneuver, and as Dooku’s maneuverability is entirely necessary for his success, Maul is going to be restricted should the Count get too close. Maul can, of course, choose to only ignite one blade, but the length of the hilt it still far more difficult to manipulate with any degree of precision, and presents just as large a target to his opponents."
I cannot lie, there is some level of merit to this observation. However, claiming that Maul and Dooku are so incapable as duelists that they wouldn't be able to avoid getting in each other's way, especially given their fantastic history of being able to engage, outfight, and separate duos, is just ludicrous, and a complete over exaggeration of the potential issue of a saberstaff in a 2v2 scenario. I mean, are we throwing the extremely acute senses, clairvoyance and foresight of Force Users for the sake of this argument? As I've shown Maul is just as aware of his surroundings as Shaak Ti is thanks to her montrals, for crying out loud. What's worse is that there are clear examples of duelists being able to coordinate with their saberstaff wielding partner, namely Kao Cen Darach and Satele Shan, Malgus and Vindican, and not to mention, Maul and Savage Opress.
Also, the notion that Maul could have his saberstaff cut with one blade ignited is just beyond silly. Not only is this just false, because the vulnerability of a saberstaff doesn't originate with it's larger hilt but rather the limited positioning of the user when both blades are ignited, but this has never been an issue in the history of the mythos between both saberstaff users and users who choose to utilise abnormally large hilts out of preference.
Maul’s weapon provides the weakness of being a huge target at the best of times, especially against precision duelists on the level of Plo and Ti. But in this particular duel, it also has a high risk of getting in Dooku’s way, something neither Sith can afford.
This is also ludicrous. "A huge target at the best of times"? At the best of times Maul can go minutes on end dueling Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time without his saberstaff being cut in half, or duel Darth Vader for 15 comic pages without his hilt being cut. At the best of times Plo Koon, even with the aid of clone troopers shooting at his opponent, is unable to cut Savage Opress' saberstaff in half - and Savage is irrefutably less skilled than Maul with such a weapon. Don't even get me started on why Shaak Ti is incapable of such a feat.
And you know what the worst part of this section is? Not only have they gone out of their way to only highlight and over exaggerate potential weak areas of a saberstaff, but they neglected to mention (or research) the positive benefits of a saberstaff. These include:
- Are exceptional weapons to use against multiple opponents due to the wide area covered (Book of Sith)
- Are uncommon weapons which are initially challenging for duelists to adjust to upon their first time encountering one (Common sense)
- Is able to provide the user with twice as many striking options at the sacrifice of some maneuverability, as well as a much more complete defence (Book of Sith and other various sources)
The main detriment of a saberstaff is it's large hilt which can be a target. And I'm not saying Maul is immune to having it targeted - he's not. But the blatant disregard for the positive aspects of the saberstaff, the lack of critical thinking relevant to the duelists in this fight, and unheard of amount of exaggeration as to how much of a problem a saberstaff is with any number of blades ignited, is just nuts.
And the best part is if Maul does lose one blade it doesn't even matter. He'll either begin utilising Jar'kai or begin using a single saber, both forms of combat he is just as proficient in as when he uses a saberstaff. But it shouldn't even come to that because there is nothing to suggest that either Jedi can exploit this weakness, at least not for anything close to a majority of the time.
Final Verdict?
I had initially planned to quote and counter Reti and Antoine's commentated-scenario that is sometimes included at the end of a video, but I would just be addressing the same arguments. So instead I'll give you my verdict.
Maul and Dooku win. They are both superior duelists to either of their opponents. Dooku in particular can exploit Plo's weakness to martial arts and Shaak's use of Makashi and Ataru. Both Sith are more powerful and indisputably more combat-viable in their use of the Force. Physically speaking, Maul is superior to both Jedi in every way, and while Dooku lacks their raw physical strength, the power of his striking is more than enough to knock them off their feet as it has done many other notable opponents.
Teamwork goes to the Jedi. But you know what? That's their only edge. And it's not even that big of one, because when you realize that Maul and Dooku have far better feats relating to multiple-opponent combat, and duo countering tactics, it's obvious that the Jedi's synergy is the least of anyone's concern here.
The Sith are just better. There is no other way to put it.
If anyone disagrees, feel free to voice your opinions and arguments below. If I've been unfair or particularly harsh in some areas, let me know. I went into this with the best of intentions, and I give massive props to the video creators for the amount of work they put into their craft.
Thanks for reading.
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