Death Nor Consequences: Taking the "Hero" Out of "Superhero"

To the shock and horror of many, in my last blog, I asked, "When Is It Time to Quit Collecting Comics?" That discussion pretty much led me to the conclusion that quitting isn't really my issue. It's more that I've lost interest... sort of. I don't have the burning need to read a story when it's new, like I used to, but I still want to read it in trade. I still get excited about the idea of finding a great new comic, I still enjoy reading reprints of older material, and I still love creating my own characters. So it's not like age has abated my love of comics. I love 'em. My issue seems to be that I don't enjoy many of them.

I haven't read a story that gripped me in quite some time, and I've been trying to figure out why for almost as long. Something has been missing from my comics. Something that made me remember them, think about them, and go back to them. I have wracked my brain over and over, and just the other day, realized that the answer has been staring me in the face for a long time. It's the lack of death or consequences. That seems really simple. It's talked about quite a bit nowadays, especially with DC'sBlackest Night putting the spotlight on the "revolving door of death." Until a couple of days ago though, I hadn't realized just how much the lack of those two things was really detracting from my enjoyment of the stories.

The circumstances of the "deaths" (in quotes, because some deaths only seemed to be death to other characters involved) and returns of recent years are common knowledge to most, so I won't go into them here. Look at the list of names though: Bucky Barnes, Steve Rogers, Superman, Nightcrawler, Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Ted Kord, Jason Todd, Stephanie Brown, Batman, Reed Richards, Jean Grey... I'm sure there are ones that I've missed. Series characters are tough, because if you kill them off, that's the end of the series. Yet, if they don't face challenges that may kill them, it starts to become a question of "are they heroes, or just adrenaline junkies in costumes?" We scoff at deaths in comics, because most characters are guaranteed to return. The only time it's really a question is if it's a "second tier" or lower character (like Ted Kord [as much as I love the guy, he's only second tier]), or if there's a legacy character with the same name (like Connor Hawke as Green Arrow). Even then though, this only creates a little doubt, because chances are, if they wear a costume, they'll come back eventually.

Then there's consequences. It used to be that superheroes showed us, the readers, the difference between right and wrong, and the consequences of wrong actions. Now, it seems that they merely show us that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is okay, as long as you can get away with it. The Punisher kills without remorse, but always manages to manipulate things so he doesn't take a fall for it. Wolverine's character used to be about a violent man of honor. Now, it seems that he kills as a means to an end, and "berserker rage" is a justification in itself. Jason Todd thinks killing is the way to take care of badguys, yet still thinks himslef a hero. Shadowland seems like a cool story, but c'mon, it's about Daredevilbecoming a badguy. And Spider-Man. Oh. my. gawd.

Spider-Man made an actual deal with the devil, and the result is a happy shiny retcon, removing problematic plot points? Yes, he gave up his wife and future child, but that's it? "Deal with the devil" stories are notorious for the devil taking far more than the dealer bargained for. Is that coming for Spider-Man, or was this just a convenient plot device to retcon Spidey with? I mean, with the fantastic results that Spider-Man got, a deal with the devil seems no more dicey than buying a used car.

These are not the actions of heroes.

To put it in a real world perspective, look at 9-11. We hailed our police, fire and rescue as heroes, because they ran into the World Trade Center towers when everyone else was running out, at the cost of their lives. We found them inspiring again, because these sacrifices were so graphically thrust into our lives. It's literally of Biblical proportions: "No greater love has any man than this: that he would lay down his life for his brother."

That's a hero.

A killer is not a hero (Punisher, Wolverine, Jason Todd). A man that turns from good to evil to enforce his ideas of how things should be is not a hero. He's a would-be-tyrant (Daredevil). A man who makes a deal with the devil is not a hero. He's a coward (Spider-Man). A man who walks across the country to find himself is not a hero. He's a hippie. When he leaves his wife and other responsibilities to do so, he's a man-child (Superman).

I have always prided myself on being able to take a story and enjoy it for what it is. Even if I don't agree with the direction a character is taken in, or with how a character was changed during a reboot, I feel I can still say if the story is good or not. I don't mind if a character has to make hard choices, or even if he has to choose between the lesser of two evils to get the job done. I do want heroes though - characters that go into battle knowing they might die, and do it anyway, because there are other people in need. Granted, most dead-and-returned heroes don't know they're going to be coming back. As readers, we do, but the characters don't. Still, I want more from my comics. I want to be inspired by them again. Heroes should be able to do that. Is that so much to ask?

*******

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I like your writing for the most part. Typically I wouldn't read something this long either. Maybe you should be a writer.... you do seem to enjoy it. 
 
Anyway like I said it was good except I disagree about "A killer is not a hero". Evil much of the time is a matter of perspective and it's really a matter of opinion so I won't argue it but I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers who've killed that are also heroes. 
 
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

  I was thinking of writing a blog like this... Thanks for cutting that idea off at the base =P.  More importantly I completely agree with all you've said, glad I'm not the only one with this opinion.  I used to be a big Marvel fan, specifically a big Wolverine fan, mostly because of all the movies.  But I moved on to DC, why?  Because I want to read about heroes.  I want to read about heroic characters doing what they do best, being heroes.  Granted, DC has it's share of anti-heroes, but they also have a distinct line between the hero and the anti-hero.  In Marvel it seems almost every character has no complication with killing, the majority of them kill and they mostly do it without even a second thought. 
 
  Superhero comics should focus more on the hero and not the super part.  I don't need to see Wolverine slicing open heads at every waking turn, I don't need it.  A hero in my book does not kill, which is a big reason why Captain Marvel is my favorite super powered hero.  He's a true blue hero... till Judd Winick started trying to ruin his character... Thats beside the point though, Captain Marvel is a hero and he's the epitome of heroes and what one should strive for morally.  As soon as a character I consider a hero does something unheroic, specifically kill someone, they're no longer a hero in my book.  Take Green Arrow, he kills Prometheous and boom, I can't even stand to look at him in the same heroic light that I did before.  Sure, shooting arrows at people was never the most heroic thing, but he put limits on what he would do but now he already crossed those limits.  I forgave him the first time because he understood the reprucusions of killing but now, really Ollie?  (Yes I still read Green Arrow, don't blame me I want solace.)
 
  Heroes are heroes because of their moral standard not because of what they do but how they do it.  All heroes face some defining moment in their life that determines what kind of hero they really are, real heroes move forward, face their challenges, take their punches, get knocked down and get back up, and they do it over, and over, and over again.  Some people are quick to say that a hero who kills to save lives is a hero, but not in my book.  The whole purpose of them being a real hero is that they are required to find another solution to a problem that doesn't end with someone visiting the morgue in a nice white bag.   
 
  Identity Crisis is one of the best stories to be created in this century because it brought up more than just heroes solving crimes, it brought to life the seriousness of the job's these heroes have.  "You don't wear the mask for yourself.  It's for your wife... your parents... even -- one day -- your children.  There are animals out there Wally.  And when it comes to family we can't always be there to defend them.  But the mask will." 
 
  Heck!  When Zoom attacked for the first time, what did Wally realize?  That villains would do anything to know their secret identities, and it took Wally getting his butt handed to him on a nice platter for him to realize revealing his identity was a mistake, a big mistake.  Heroes are heroes because they face the challenge, and they bare the double-edged sword that is infact the mask they wear.  When Ollie first died, you could say it was comendable.  He saved his friend a choice that would bare heavy on his heart and made the choice himself.  And when Ollie came back... okay, I admit that I was estatic.  But that doesn't change the fact that he died.  When Superboy died, he died a hero.  When a family member dies you don't go digging up their grave in insane attempts to reanimate them.  No.  You give them peace, and you give them solace, then, lastly, you honor their memory because that is what they truly deserve.  Your respect. 
 
  People may die but the symbol a hero stands for never dies.  When Barry Allen died, he died a hero.  No reason to bring him back.  To many writers now-a-days are focused on the fact that if they kill off a hero they can just bring him back later and make some bs story to compensate the outrageousness.   
 
  I read comics for heroes, I don't read comics for cry-baby grown ups who don't know how to grow up and play the hand that life gave them.  The Batman family is the best group of families in this respect (excluding Stephanie, I really hate her.)  The entire Bat-family gets dealt their tragedy, they get knocked down.  They have their scars and they have their own unique problems, but what do they do?  Give up?  NO, NEVERRRRR!!!  They play the hand they're dealt and they roll with it.  I find reading a lot of comics with super powered heroes hard to read because most of the time they don't know how to deal with their problems, and thankfully the Bat-Family comics are a comfort from that.  That's inspiring. 
 
  Comics need more heroes now, I'm tired of all the angst Marvel puts out because they think it's interesting.  I'm tired of all the crap DC likes to bring back to life because of some spur of the moment compulsion.   
 
  Superhero comics need more heroes.    
 
  Real heroes.

"I like your writing for the most part. Typically I wouldn't read something this long either. Maybe you should be a writer.... you do seem to enjoy it.  Anyway like I said it was good except I disagree about "A killer is not a hero". Evil much of the time is a matter of perspective and it's really a matter of opinion so I won't argue it but I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers who've killed that are also heroes.  "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view." - Obi-Wan Kenobi "

" @cbishop: That is the most epic thing I've read in months, and agrees with what I've been thinking entirely, especially with characters like Punisher and Wolverine. I've been adamantly against heroes, or rather people claiming to be heroes, using lethal methods and killing as a means to reach an end. Anti-heroes are taking over, and the line between heroes and villains are getting so blurred to the point that the only difference between them is who the writer says is the "hero" and villain. "

Good write-up, though I must protest the part about Spider-Man. Spider-Man is, without a single doubt in my mind, the best person and the greatest hero in comics. Spidey didn't make that deal, Joe Quesada did, I know that doesn't make a lot of sense, but the fact is, that "writer" went in with a purpose, and he slapped everything that Spider-Man is in the face, so I don't consider that true Spidey. 
 
Let's look at Peter Parker for a moment. He is, in many respects, the stereotypical loser/underachiever. He's a genius who works as a superhero's paparazzi, he constantly has money problems, and he often appears to mooch off of his friends. 
 
But then you look below the surface, Peter Parker has superpowers, but compared to people like Thor, the Hulk, Iron Man, the X-Men, Ms Marvel, Doctor Strange; Spider-Man is at best, a run of the mill low level mutant. And look at what he does! Peter Parker has stared Galactus in the face, fought for humanity's survival and won, and just helped out cats in trees. So, why does he do this? You could answer "with great power, comes great responsibility", but Peter really doesn't have great power. He has average-moderate power. He operates in a city filled with Daredevil, Iron Fist, Luke Cage and the Fantastic Four, and he is still more recognisable than any of them. He helps people because he knows he can, because he feels it's the right thing to do, and for Peter Parker, saving just one person, whether from gun point or just by brightening their day by seeing Spider-Man swing by, that's enough to put on a ridiculous suit and basically forsake any normalcy or consistency within your life.
That's why I think Spidey is a hero, and possibly the greatest hero in comics.
 
Also, the Superman walking thing; blame the writers. When in doubt, blame the writers.
 
And if you're looking for a comic to sink your teeth into again, Y: the Last Man; I cannot stress it enough. Brilliant series.

"

"A man who walks across the country to find himself is not a hero.  He's a hippie.  When he leaves his wife and other responsibilities to do so, he's a man-child (Superman)." 
 
That was just in that stupid film. Comic Superman would never do that. 

 

 

"

"That was just in that stupid film. Comic Superman would never do that."

"Which movie was that? I must have missed that one...  Also, a man who walks across the country to find himself is not a hero. He's Forrest Gump! "

"Good write-up, though I must protest the part about Spider-Man. Spider-Man is, without a single doubt in my mind, the best person and the greatest hero in comics. Spidey didn't make that deal, Joe Quesada did, I know that doesn't make a lot of sense, but the fact is, that "writer" went in with a purpose, and he slapped everything that Spider-Man is in the face, so I don't consider that true Spidey..."

"...Also, the Superman walking thing; blame the writers. When in doubt, blame the writers..."

"...And if you're looking for a comic to sink your teeth into again, Y: the Last Man; I cannot stress it enough. Brilliant series. "

" @humanfly26: Superman Returns  And you are trying to tell me that Forest Gump isnt hero? :-) "

"@Amegashita: So I cut that idea off at the base, huh? lol ;) "

"@humanfly26: I'm not a big fan of Green Arrow killing, but at least the consequences were shown.  Ollie was arrested, tried, and found not guilty by a jury.  Wonder Woman... I haven't really been clear on what happened after she killed Lord.  The charges were dropped, but I don't know under what circumstances that happened.  I think WW killing was a travesty to her character.  She's almost in a Catch 22, because of it.  If she's in another extreme battle, and doesn't kill, then the question is "then why did she kill Lord, if she doesn't kill this opponent?"  There were other ways to end that battle.  I think they've cheapened and dulled WW's character with that action. " 

  The story itself was pretty bad in itself.  Ollie already said he needed to be punished so why was there a trial?  Also, exile?  How is that even a real sentencing under U.S. law?  What is this?  The 1700's?

@Amegashita said:

"Hmm, nice one.  To you, touche.  =P "

LOL! Wondered how long it would take you to get back to me on that one. ;) 

@Amegashita said:

"The story itself was pretty bad in itself.  Ollie already said he needed to be punished so why was there a trial?  Also, exile?  How is that even a real sentencing under U.S. law?  What is this?  The 1700's? "

There was a trial because there needed to be.  I don't know about "exile" as a true ruling, but it might be on the books somewhere.  In North Las Vegas, NV, it's illegal to take the tomatoes off of your hamburger, so stranger things have definitely happened.

"And that's where you lost me. "

" @humanfly26: Wonder Woman... I haven't really been clear on what happened after she killed Lord.  The charges were dropped, but I don't know under what circumstances that happened.  I think WW killing was a travesty to her character.  She's almost in a Catch 22, because of it.  If she's in another extreme battle, and doesn't kill, then the question is "then why did she kill Lord, if she doesn't kill this opponent?"  There were other ways to end that battle.  I think they've cheapened and dulled WW's character with that action. "

More than anything, I'd say it's a general wariness of 9/11 being used as an example of/metaphor for anything. The previous (and even present) executive administration used 9/11 as a jumping point to justify just about anything they felt like doing. And using this fireman "hero" concept tie-in as their main lifeline. This kind of thinking is infectious and dangerous. A gross over-simplification of all the issues and events surrounding 9/11. 
Don't get me wrong, those guys did some impressive stuff. And somebody had to dive in and save those people. I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but perhaps there's more to the picture. Did you know that the reason why so many firemen died in those attacks was because nearly every fireman in NYC rushed to the WTC that morning? Despite protocol and actual need, a sense of machismo and (perhaps) misguided heroism overtook them and got a lot of good people killed. 
I worked with the Red Cross in NYC for a time a couple months after 9/11, sorting out where, to whom, and how much money was going to the families of the people killed in the attacks, many of them firemen. More common than you might think, there were as many as three claims made on one man's income: his wife, his ex-wife, and his mistress. I'm not implying that a lack of monogamy implies an inability to be a hero. But it certainly paints a different picture of these people than we're used to. 
Ernest Hemingway (the definition of machismo), defined courage as "grace under fire, nothing more." Perhaps heroism is just defined as a human being, flaws and all, just diving into the fire at the right moment, regardless of who they are, what they've done before, or what comes after. And why can't this apply to superheroes as well? 
One of my favorite examples of heroism and humanism is Hush, the old Batman story. It's about Batman needing all the people that fight in his city, either beside him or against his wishes. How they form a network and support each other. THAT is heroism in my eyes. 
And Superman attempting to reground himself by walking across the country: Yeah, it's a little loopy of an idea, but a bold move, I think. Superman has gotten a bit out of touch, both with mankind in the DCU and with us as readers. The whole New Krypton series was a mess, his role in Final Crisis was confusing and spectacular (to put it simply), and I believe he needed a chance to literally get back to earth. Put his feet back on the ground. Which is what Straczynski is going for. Maybe it isn't perfect, but it's brave. 
So there you go, my long winded response.

"

There was a trial because there needed to be.  I don't know about "exile" as a true ruling, but it might be on the books somewhere.  In North Las Vegas, NV, it's illegal to take the tomatoes off of your hamburger, so stranger things have definitely happened.

"

"Ollie wanted to be punished so there shouldn't have been a trial, only a sentence hearing."

I really don't wanna come off like those guys that say, "your problem is Microsoft, get a Mac" or "get Firefox" ect, but I will say that everything that's been said is really pretty standard for most Marvel/DC titles. Should it be? Absolutely not, but it is. I guess it's to be expected for them being around for so long, but still, there needs to be a change, but for the time being, I suggest--maybe taking a break from the tights and supes, an' lookin' into some indie stuff. Death still means something in the world of Top Cow, and their stories seem to still be goin' strong. Consequences are all around in other non-big 2 companies. Granted, every company's got its faults, but still. Just throwin' that out there for you.

" @cbishop:  ...Tears are for everyone.  Real men aren't afraid of tears!!  "

Il b hounest at 1st reading i was like"WHAT HERESY IS THIS" but as i went on u make some solid points n rele hav created a sublime blog. Alot of heroes have lost there heroic edge, in civilwar much as i love the arc ironman was close to xecuting captain america with his own sheild at one point. a image truely griping an compelling but its rele to dark a place for these heroes. At that moment Ironmans arc would be from playboy to profiteer to hero to murderer of an iconic hero an freind. Wolverine used to kill as a last resort an has been willing to drop the wicked now hes seen riping ninjas to threads now he is obviously an anti hero an i wil always love wolvie but ther isnt much heroism in the guy who slays 30 ninjas. Theres alot of dark twists that are unjust an never used acurately. Havent read the spoken of WW story but it dosent seem like she rele hesitated i believe a hero can kill but it should never b so simple as stab, its a bloody comic u can easyily get in the mindset of the character. Show us ther contemplation ther weighing odds an morals. SOme things are arcs an that is great we want this but the results have to be noble spoting the eror learning the lesson dealing with a tragedy they caused.  
 
Anti heros should even have a noble out look this is why i love moon night he gave into rage an was fighting the earge to repeat the brutality i havent got a hold of more recent isues but at that moment he was battleing himself and Kounsho this was great. It was the is it ok to slay an how much is going to far. The dark moments one has is good its what alows some heroic acts but its lately often not ending the way it should. The green arow killing an xile is good if its followed threw if the society is like man u went to far an he has to redeem himself this is great but that dosent seem the rout. As for the most infamous anti hero punisher u cant rele call him as hero. Im a P fan all the way but lets not go throwin that H word around him. Hes punisher, a slayer a xecutioner eliminateing the never ending garbage till he cant even beet them with his old man walking cane, hes a warior at heart but his mind is on a single track this is partialy me bing defensive an part just stateing the facts. While he wont go an kill a jwalker but show scum an he wil scrub end of his story 
 
Heroes these characters are some more then others but some of the peril has left it less captivating, lets not xclude them completely tho for xample look at the xmen particularly cyk hes in a bad spot has to balance the xmens responsibility an the mutant comunity as a hole. there are characters faceing the imposible still. THey do however need to be brought more to the foreground. Comic writers need to xcept the mortality of the bearer an imortality of the symbol mor responsibly. Give a story for some of course but many need to stay down. Superman was never 1 i liked but his fall that was epic. Love or hate him u saw him sacrifice himself for a world that in someways wasnt even his. To leave the world to rebuild was smart for him to be the inspiration of what to be for all heroes that was good to have various knock offs an his new found solar healing factor is to kill a tale that was spellbinding. 
 
Also dont xclude ppl related to darkness as non heroes right away, ghost rider still fights for good dose he not? Spawn a character i love was an antihero an a killer but in the comics he did releave humanity from the manipulative war hungry angels an demons. Satana sacrificed herself originaly for doctor strange. 
Ok im done lol ive ranted as much as u maybe mor evn lol

I can see what you're pointing out there!
Specially with Spidey's coward attitude (a deal with the devil? seriously? Real "old school" Peter Parker wouldn't have done that! why wouldn't he bring back Uncle Ben too as well? He should have learnt, accepted it and move forward never giving up, specially to SATAN!! that's...anti-heroic!)

  I want to be inspired by them again. 

THIS.

@cbishop said:

To put it in a real world perspective, look at 9-11. We hailed our police, fire and rescue as heroes, because they ran into the World Trade Center towers when everyone else was running out, at the cost of their lives. We found them inspiring again, because these sacrifices were so graphically thrust into our lives. It's literally of Biblical proportions: "No greater love has any man than this: that he would lay down his life for his brother."

That's a hero.

A killer is not a hero (Punisher, Wolverine, Jason Todd). A man that turns from good to evil to enforce his ideas of how things should be is not a hero. He's a would-be-tyrant (Daredevil). A man who makes a deal with the devil is not a hero. He's a coward (Spider-Man). A man who walks across the country to find himself is not a hero. He's a hippie. When he leaves his wife and other responsibilities to do so, he's a man-child (Superman).

I feel this is where you fall especially with your comparison to Superman and the fire fighters. Can you give me any stories that Superman actually risked his life to save someone? Cause I can give you a whole list of them. There are stories like Grounded however that are made to show the humanity of these characters as well. That they aren't perfect and they deal with thoughts just like everyone else.

Real life example, those firemen in 9/11 aren't always firemen. You took one story and called them a hero. You cannot cherry pick cause otherwise the same thing applies to all those characters. Yes I agree the firemen for that were heros, but just because they have normal lives and probably also have their faults, then are they not heros all of the sudden?

I hope that made sense lol

@cbishop: Honestly what you need is to look beyond the Big Two. The problemas you highlight do not exist in the smaller companies: Top Cow, Dark Horse, European Companies like Soleil, Dargaud and Glenat. There, I've never had any of problems you go on about. In fact it's those problems that prompted me to go elsewhere.

Instead of despairing use this disappointment as an opportunity to broaden your horizons. There GREAT comics out there that are barely ever mentioned on this site because the big two get all the spotlight. I once tried to get people interested in some of them by posting a few reviews. But barely anyone cared.

@LP said:

I want to be inspired by them again.

THIS.

Definitely.

@batshrine said:

I feel this is where you fall especially with your comparison to Superman and the fire fighters. Can you give me any stories that Superman actually risked his life to save someone? Cause I can give you a whole list of them. There are stories like Grounded however that are made to show the humanity of these characters as well. That they aren't perfect and they deal with thoughts just like everyone else.

Real life example, those firemen in 9/11 aren't always firemen. You took one story and called them a hero. You cannot cherry pick cause otherwise the same thing applies to all those characters. Yes I agree the firemen for that were heros, but just because they have normal lives and probably also have their faults, then are they not heros all of the sudden?

I hope that made sense lol

You made perfect sense. That was kind of my point though. Yeah, they used to have all kinds of stories that showed them risking their lives and being the heroes, and those were great. Human moments of self-doubt, weakness, and even making a tragic mistake are all fine. What I'm talking about in this blog though is what appeared at the time to be a trend of putting our heroes in stories that leave them lacking. It's like creators have become so focused on humanizing the heroes for characterization, that they've forgotten how to write an inspiring superhero.

@Crom-Cruach said:

@cbishop: Honestly what you need is to look beyond the Big Two. The problemas you highlight do not exist in the smaller companies: Top Cow, Dark Horse, European Companies like Soleil, Dargaud and Glenat. There, I've never had any of problems you go on about. In fact it's those problems that prompted me to go elsewhere.

Instead of despairing use this disappointment as an opportunity to broaden your horizons. There GREAT comics out there that are barely ever mentioned on this site because the big two get all the spotlight. I once tried to get people interested in some of them by posting a few reviews. But barely anyone cared.

What I need is for my comic book heroes to be heroes again. I grew up with DC & Marvel, and they have a special place in my entertainment heart, y'know? They used to be inspirational to a degree. I find them much less so now, and I don't think it's just because I'm older.

As for other companies, I like plenty of stuff from other companies: Hellboy, Invincible, Walking Dead, others that aren't on the tip of my typing fingers, and of course Savage Dragon, which has been my favorite comic since I picked up the first issue. This blog was just about a trend I was seeing at the Big Two, that I wanted to see change. I have seen change, but I wouldn't say improvement.