DC Comics' F**ked Up Power Scale System [Repost]

I'd like to preface this rant by stating that I'm unfamiliar with much of the DCU after around 2010; I’m a little behind at the moment. If, at that time or sometime after, DC has at least started to pull its head out of its ass somehow and fixed its universe, feel free to just tell me to shut up and familiarize myself with The New 52.

That being said: there exist certain DC comics entities that are entirely too powerful (i.e. Superman, Flash, Darkseid) to regularly coexist with lesser entities (i.e. Batman, Green Arrow, Lex Luthor). Now I know that statement may cause some controversy, as many might argue that, for instance, Batman is on par with (or even surpasses) Superman in power, since his intellect makes up for his relative lack of physical ability. To me, that’s completely ridiculous. Consider this: Batman is often seriously challenged by the likes of foes such as Two-Face, the Joker, or Killer Croc, and the danger present during these encounters feels credible. How then can Batman face enemies even a tenth of Superman’s power with only his utility belt and Batmobile? This is utterly absurd! A villain with such power, with intellect matching Black Mask’s (for example) would have the sense and power enough to kill Batman during their first encounter (assuming they are aware of his threat level). I think it’s actually insulting to the very existence of many DC characters that Batman is allowed to feel so safe in that universe. Or maybe I should say HIS universe; he seems to be portrayed as not only capable of easily taking care of himself against most villains or heroes, but one of the top 10 most dangerous beings in the DCU! If it’s his intellect and physical ability that enables him to defeat Gotham’s villains, that’s perfectly reasonable. However, what good is all that stuff in a crunch, against Sinestro or Metallo? How many people are still comfortable having Batman run around with the JLA facing Superman-level threats without at least a battle suit like Lex’s, and not visibly fearing for his life every second of every day? My problem here lies not with characters such as Batman or Green Arrow, but rather with the great Injustice of placing Gods like Superman, Flash, and Black Adam Among mere mortals (like Us?). Alright – Maybe that was kinda corny, but I just couldn't resist. But no one try and pretend you would not have attempted that joke, because I know 9 out of 10 of you geeks are far cornier (and more boldly so) than I could ever hope to be. It’s just in your nature.

Anyway, I’d love to see DC reboot the universe and set the new Superman strength standard to, say, 10 times that of World War Hulk. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d say that’s still pretty damn strong. If not, that seriously affects DC’s credibility (even in the realm of comics), and makes movies and video games difficult without DRASTICALLY diminishing or skewing the characters’ capabilities (which really shouldn’t even be necessary). A lesson could be learned from Marvel’s Squadron Supreme (at least starting from Vol. 2). That’s a much more credible depiction of a Justice League. I think it’s a mistake for DC to arrogantly stick to the same Superman/Batman-equality model they've had for decades while: (1.) comics as a whole are becoming more realistic, (2.) readers now expect and deserve more from the genre, and (3) Marvel (their main competitor) is far superior in this department. There’s more that could be said about this, but I think I’ll stop right here.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on the issue?

How many posts till a flame?

Place your bets here.

Batman is often seriously challenged by the likes of foes such as Two-Face, the Joker, or Killer Croc, and the danger present during these encounters feels credible. How then can Batman face enemies even a tenth of Superman’s power with only his utility belt and Batmobile? This is utterly absurd! A villain with such power, with intellect matching Black Mask’s (for example) would have the sense and power enough to kill Batman during their first encounter (assuming they are aware of his threat level).

Batman normal enemies challenge him by making him use his detective skills to find out things that happen and solve the problem, they don't usually make him have to depend on strength really like Superman's foes do. Batman can tangle with guys in Superman tier when he creates these suits/equipment and a Kryptonite for the enemy characters.

How many people are still comfortable having Batman run around with the JLA facing Superman-level threats without at least a battle suit like Lex’s, and not visibly fearing for his life every second of every day? My problem here lies not with characters such as Batman or Green Arrow, but rather with the great Injustice of placing Gods like Superman, Flash, and Black Adam Among mere mortals (like Us?).

I'm fine with Batman being with the Justice League and him hanging around Demi-gods like Superman, Aquaman and guys like them. Flash is not even close to god level.

Anyway, I’d love to see DC reboot the universe and set the new Superman strength standard to, say, 10 times that of World War Hulk. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d say that’s still pretty damn strong.

So his strength can get even more inconsistent than it already is? Plus a reboot right now is not even needed.

F*cked up power scaling? DBZ says hi.

@leo-343:

Okay, seriously do you dislike the Flash so much that you low ball him constantly?

Haha it's so funny everyone on here will swear you don't like a character just because you put him at a certain rank they think he is at.

New-52 Flash will most likely in time near the power of his pre-52 levels, of course he can be seen as 'god' level among the JL, the speed force is one of the biggest hax's out there, have you read his pre-52 stories? Wally West? Are you aware of his high end feats like cracking Anti monitors armour, being seen as the biggest threat by Amazo

That's the thing people are so stuck on Pre 52 Wally West when that guy is over he is not here anymore. New 52 Wally West is nothing like that and nobody cares about him or his bad attitude. Every character has high end feats, have you seen his low end feats lmao? Like getting beat by Slade Wilson? New 52 Flash & Wally West are neither anything close to gods.

@leo-343: don't bother. I've called him out too many times, he falls back on that one time Slade beat the JL

@leo-343:

Yep, just ignore PIS.

Yeah yeah yeah here we go with the whole "PIS" thing as a excuse because your character lost.

@leo-343:

By that logic, every single time a character has beaten someone they shouldn't it has been wholly legitimate and 100% accurate.

Only person who is to say who should win and who should not is the writer.

Calling "PIS" gets old, your character got hit by someone slower than them, then they got hit. There is nothing wrong with a speedster getting hit like they do all the time in the Comics.

well that escalated quite quickly

So you legitimize this?

@nickthedevil: @leo-343:

Pretty much.

Also Btw Stan Lee wants you guys to stop applying logic to these characters everything about them defies logic and real world properties.

Bolded part=not true, imho. Personally, I've never liked Batman with the JL or JLA, and is part of the reason i don't buy the JL comics. Not because I think "he has no business in it" but because I think Batman works best alone.

@leo-343: "PIS" as in "Plot Induced Stupidity?" Interesting. I really need to get with it.

@manwhohaseverything: I think that if you agree with #1 (which I'm not sure how you couldn't), then #2 seems to follow comfortably. I would think that's one of the central ways the comics of today differ from those published decades ago.

@killrayne_44: dude, realism in n52 was thrown out of bounds when superman "sang" darkseid away.

@kyrees: Please post scans of it.

@ultragreenboy:

Yawn.

@ariesxmasters: Batman normal enemies challenge him by making him use his detective skills to find out things that happen and solve the problem, they don't usually make him have to depend on strength really like Superman's foes do. Batman can tangle with guys in Superman tier when he creates these suits/equipment and a Kryptonite for the enemy characters.

Does he always use proper suits and equipment? There are so many times this guy could and should have died.

I'm fine with Batman being with the Justice League and him hanging around Demi-gods like Superman, Aquaman and guys like them. Flash is not even close to god level.

Which Flash are we talking about here? The one I know most definitely seems to be.

So his strength can get even more inconsistent than it already is? Plus a reboot right now is not even needed.

A reboot would be the only thing I could think of to address the issues I outlined. Also, I don't understand your "[inconsistency]" comment.

@kyrees: Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Hmm. So its bout that time again.

i posted something on this before and now its lost

@killrayne_44:

Does he always use proper suits and equipment? There are so many times this guy could and should have died.

That could be said for pretty much any character though, in fact pretty much all of them should have died but then managed to survive or comeback. Does Batman always have the proper equipment? For the most part, yes he does depending on the writer. He is depicted differently from writer to writer just like every other character.

Which Flash are we talking about here? The one I know most definitely seems to be

I'm talking all New 52 ongoing everything. I don't care about Pre 52 stuff.

A reboot would be the only thing I could think of to address the issues I outlined. Also, I don't understand your "[inconsistency]" comment.

Reboot won't help and If you have read any of the New 52 you'd know what my inconsistency comment meant.

inconsistency will always exist so long as they're different writer for the same character. Plus inconsistency seems to reoccur for most character that tend to be to powerful in some shape or form.

Example: Superman, Okay so in New 52 Superman he was able to lift the weight of the earth pretty easily without any sunlight but yet he was struggle lifting a helicarrier that is a few tons that Aquaman or Wonder Woman could lift. Weaker character don't seem to suffer nearly as much as more powerful characters.

Another Example okay 2014 Quicksilver goes pretty much undefined speeds, like he goes as fast as needed for the plot they never show or say specifically how fast he is going to avoid inconsistency, and so he is pretty easily accessible to different writers without having to worry about much. Flash on the other hand they try to throw out numbers and say he is moving as fast as light or in attosecond or however fast they try to say he is moving which easily can make for inconsistency if he goes to another writer.

Realism depends on many things.

Realism as in ditching superheroic traditions and costume designs for more practical ones ?

f*** no, not when you have powers to take care of that

the word you are looking for is 'consistency'

Morrison did a great thing with 'hypertime' a while ago , but other writers keep mucking it up

Solution is simple, they should have a database of these 'showings' that is accessible to all writers in their company that is update realtime for all to share. Could be in a program or even written on a whiteboard.

Add another one for story and 'characterisation', it is tolerable to butcher strength but not so when doing it to their 'personalities'

Writers must read this before going on with their versions, adding twists are fine but deviating off the rails is not.

@enormity:

Solution is simple, they should have a database of these 'showings' that is accessible to all writers in their company that is update realtime for all to share. Could be in a program or even written on a whiteboard.

Add another one for story and 'characterisation', it is tolerable to butcher strength but not so when doing it to their 'personalities'

Writers must read this before going on with their versions, adding twists are fine but deviating off the rails is not.

Good point, but if they did that then they would probably feel like they're hindering the writer and not letting the get free rain to portray the character how they feel. Like I don't think there is really a way to 100% stop inconsistency because every writer has a different idea of a character inside their head and they act upon it. Your idea is great I'm not saying it is not, but they probably feel like if they do that they would be holding back the writer and making them conform to what another writer has already done which would kind of defeat the purpose of getting a new writer to begin with.

@ariesxmasters:

Hardly hindering everything, but keeping internal consistency so that writers don't step on each other's toes. They have been trying to do that but something that important should be made into company policy, unlike manga and some indies BC/Marble is written by many people but they should not stray from the core values of the character. N52 for example receive and still does get backlash for butchering the characteristics of characters, their personalities and how they interact with the world. 100% is hard, but at this point even 70% is good enough.

They are allowed to have ideas but they must at least study character history and everything beforehand, so they know the basics to heart. I do not blame comic writers mostly as other media is to blame the TV/Movie people and the new fans that come with expectations that felt 'off' when they read the books. These people would then complain and some writers (bad ones) would cave under pressure and make changes.

Fans need an open heart to read more than one or two books about their characters if they want to enter a name. Don't just read marvel only for spiderman or DC only for batman, it's a big world in there and they are barely skimming the surface. Dive in, anyone can snorkel.

If by decades ago you mean say the last thirty-forty years, I don't see how you can think comics today are more realistic. In what ways are comics more realistic now then they were in the 80's? Remember this is a fantasy genre, realism isn't even part of the make-up. Now, if you mean compared to the 1950's, yes the characterizations are more realistic, (even if the stories aren't)

Power scale dont work, because you cant apply any number to power, its like intelligence, emotions and other things.

Also, comic books are getting worst with time, they forget what Suspension of Disbelief actually means, they believe is an a$$ pull to justify anything that happens in a work of fiction, even when the truth its that its there to set the internal logic of a work of fiction, there must be an element of truth and reality so it works, modern fiction forget this in the lame excuse its fiction, an excuse only bad writers use.

I have seen you say you have not read any "pre 52" comics, it is clear PIS that flash was tagged by Deathstroke, just because you do not understand the flash and his power level does not make it any less of PIS.

@thenaughtytitan:

I have seen you say you have not read any "pre 52" comics, it is clear PIS that flash was tagged by Deathstroke, just because you do not understand the flash and his power level does not make it any less of PIS.

Whether I read Pre 52 stuff or not or what you think is "PIS" and not is not what this thread is about.

But I don't read Pre 52, I read New 52 issues.

Call Slade hitting Wally "PIS" if you want the fact of the matter is it happen and it is not going away. DC Comics saw that and approved of it.

You are not informed on this matter and the characters involved, you do not know the power levels of either wally or slade, yet you continue to try and argue about a showing you have not read. You are not knowledgeable enough to argue about this matter considering you have not read any pre 52.

This is a scan from the fight where he tags the flash, as shown kyle rayner has his shields up.

Somehow his shield gets taken off or DS can squeeze through it, this fight is complete PIS and terrible writing. Are you seriously saying that bad writing and pis do not matter and that we should not care if the writing is horrible? With all of the other showing from all of the other characters that fought deathstroke, somehow they lost, this is complete pis. All of them have showings that show they should be able to easily beat deathstroke but they did not, because the plot called for it and the writer is asinine.

@thenaughtytitan:

You are not informed on this matter and the characters involved, you do not know the power levels of either wally or slade, yet you continue to try and argue about a showing you have not read. You are not knowledgeable enough to argue about this matter considering you have not read any pre 52.

That "Leo" guy is the one who brought all this up my first comment had nothing to do with any of this. My first comment was speaking to the OP and addressing something he felt.

Somehow his shield gets taken off or DS can squeeze through it, this fight is complete PIS and terrible writing. Are you seriously saying that bad writing and pis do not matter and that we should not care if the writing is horrible?With all of the other showing from all of the other characters that fought deathstroke, somehow they lost, this is complete pis. All of them have showings that show they should be able to easily beat deathstroke but they did not, because the plot called for it and the writer is asinine.

The writer can do whatever they want, man. If it sells they accomplished their mission.

What you feel is bad writing someone else might not.

Different writers and creative teams depict certain characters differently.

Like every character has a lot of factors that depend on the plot.

So in DC/Marvel when a character gets beat, tagged or hurt by a inferior being its called "Plot Induced Stupidity" and is to be ignored, but if something similar happens to a character that isn't DC/Marvel, it's legitimate low end feat showing how weak that character really is.

Lol pretty interesting

Every single showing from every single character who fought deathstroke points to them wrecking him. It was terrible writing and that is why nobody takes it seriously, you need to learn to tell the difference, not all writers are going to do a great job so you learn to tell good from bad. This is a clear case of pis and bad writing, which is why nobody agrees with it, deathstroke cannot tag the flash, the scan is riddled with flaws.

@thenaughtytitan:

Every single showing from every single character who fought deathstroke points to them wrecking him. It was terrible writing and that is why nobody takes it seriously, you need to learn to tell the difference, not all writers are going to do a great job so you learn to tell good from bad. This is a clear case of pis and bad writing, which is why nobody agrees with it, deathstroke cannot tag the flash, the scan is riddled with flaws.

Whether people on here agree with it or not means nothing, the fact is it happen. Slade can tag Flash, DC says he can and these are DC's characters who they have created and determine what can and cannot happen. Nobody on this site has any type of place to tell DC Comic what their characters can and cannot do. Just because you feel it shouldn't have happened means 0 to them. DC would be like "These are our character we do whatever we want with them, you don't like it? Tough, man". Just because you feel something is bad writing doesn't mean it is, Comics are made for entertainment and story not so you can compare characters to one another. You probably only feel that it is bad writing because your character is not doing what you want, not because the story/plot is actually bad. Just because you couldn't get a high end feat out of it doesn't mean it is bad writing.

@enormity: Let's say Superman (and all his kind) was consistently god-level. Do you think that would solve the problem? Smart and/or tech don't quite do the trick for me.

Add another one for story and 'characterisation', it is tolerable to butcher strength but not so when doing it to their 'personalities'

Up to what degree of "[butchering]" is tolerable? And why?

Would love all heros everywhere to have this, but depending on writers this will be impossible to implement.

Sigh. Here we go again smh.

You should post this more often :) These are fiction characters, what they can/cannot do is up to the writers and editors that work on them. It's why no Marvel or DC (and probably other companies) has 100% consistent powers. It's why I no long jump on "Batman can't beat Superman" threads. (I used to) I don't think, given what I know about the characters, that Batman should ever be able to do squat to Superman, unless he has kryptonite. (Battle suit or not.) But if Frank Miller and Scott Snyder disagree with me, then I lose the argument, because they've gotten to write what happens in a Batman comic and I haven't.

@manwhohaseverything: If by decades ago you mean say the last thirty-forty years, I don't see how you can think comics today are more realistic. In what ways are comics more realistic now then they were in the 80's? Remember this is a fantasy genre, realism isn't even part of the make-up. Now, if you mean compared to the 1950's, yes the characterizations are more realistic, (even if the stories aren't)

Things like the psychological and political elements in comic book stories have become more realistic. Power level portrayals may not have changed very much. However, I believe it should be the obvious next step. "Fantasy" does not imply a complete abandonment of the laws and rules of our universe. An attempt is clearly made, at some level, by writers to be realistic in almost all realms (that come to mind).