#1 Edited by Hedatary (3768 posts) - - Show Bio

 Arite, while it's true that dbz facts are hard to come by, debating with it is even harder especially when one is going against a DC/Marvel debaters, who have facts of such as this or that. See, when dbz fans debate about certain thing, they lack actual evidance and can't really come up with real feats to prove that a certain dbz character is stronger than a certain marvel or dc character. And allot of fans say that Supes could life hundreds of thousands of tonnes while dbz characters can't, which gives supes an automatic win.

Now, i'm all for it really seeing as i really don't care much for dbz, instead, i would rather see Marvel/DC fans squirm because once a feat was brought up, they automatically say, "Prove it" i unquote. Here is a couple of feat i managed to uncover.

Now, when the first appearance of Gotenks, he was still having trouble controlling his powers stated by Piccolo. However, as a super saiyan Gotenks, they not only managed to fly around the world 9 or 10 times but in cross axes in circular motion. Here is the proof that Gotenks could do such a feat and carefully count how many times he could fly around the world. See, at his stage of Gotenks SS level 1, Goku is so much stronger than them it's not even funny so this leads me to believe that SS 3 Goku can go around the world three times as fast as Gotenks.
                                                     

  

Now, see how lax he is. not only is he not tired but  he is completely relaxed. However, there is more. Goku taught them saying that even though he could have killed Fat Buu, which he said so himself, he wanted Goten and Trunks to do it with the fusion technique. now, when they did transform, Gotenks wasn't strong enough to fight again Buu. Not even close. So, they made a deal with  Buu to give them one day. And Gotenks went to the hyper bolic time chamber to get stronger. Not only did the year training. It was constant training for them and for a year they grew strong enough to make it to level 3. See, at this stage, Gotenks level 3 is stronger than Goku at level 3 because of the fusion and the year training. But thats not all, they were strong enough to fight against Majin Buu who is the strongest incarnation of any buu, even stronger than Kid Buu and especially stronger than Fat buu.

Many of you over estimate Kid Buu when in fact he is stronger than Fat Buu and is able to fight against Goku level 3 in an equal match, though Kid Buu is still stronger.

Now, before i move on i have to bring up other parts of DBZ. Take Frieza for example. The first part of there fight was so intense that Goku demanded Frieza to leave the planet out of it and Frieza took it in stride. At that level, they could easily destroy the planet. However during that fight, Frieza remembered past saiyans who he fought against. One of them was Bardock. And seeing as Bardoc was part of the dragon ball universe, this makes the Bardock special Canon. This same thing applies to Coola. Frieza's brother. The fact that they were talking about Frieza warrants the movie as a canon. To say otherwise as non canon is plain stupid because Coola specifically stated that Frieza was his brother. Thus, it makes the movie canon. Not non-canon.

Anyway moving on, Frieza has powers other than just energy manipulation and energy educed punches. He is able to make "Death Ball that could incinerate the world with just the tip of his finger. He also has other powers such as telekineses and telepathy. He also lifted a small mountain with his mind, not at all straining, rather relaxing. Thus, no one could really tell how strong his telekineses powers really are. The same thing applies to the dbz characters...rather, the Saiyans. Vegeta was able to speak to Napa telepathically during the saiyan saga. And the dbz characters could do so as well. As for the telepathy, Goku used his telepathy powers on Frieza, hitting him so hard he pushed Frieza all the way to the sea which was quite a feet below. You want proof? Watch the fight at 4:00 Thats not all, Frieza was also able to make an explosion with his mind alone, i really don't know how he was able to do that but if someone could tell me that would be nice.  That could also be watched in 4:00. Goku also has mind reading abilities aka telepathy which he was able to garner all the information from Krillen when he first met Krillen.

  

The mountain could be seen lifted by Frieza from this video. You can freeze frame it at 1:52 and marvel at the sheer size of it. It is truly remarkable that Frieza  was able to lift it and throw at Goku without even straining at all. And that surpass Anything that norma Jean Grey could ever do. 

  

And what is truly remarkable is that Cell also learned of this power when he got his DNA. And Cell is hundreds of times more powerful then Frieza, which would make his telepathic powers even more frightening then anything i've could ever imagine. Just think of the possibility.

Now, moving on, Kid Buu is not the strongest Buu incarnation. It was Majin Buu. Now, i'll talk about Gohan in Buu saga. Gohan at buu saga was strong however he was weaker than Gohan SS 2 fighting against Cell. Vegeta specifically stated this when Gohan transformed during the tournament against Kobito. The second he changed to level 2, the Suprime Kai, the ruler of the North (I think) universe managed to bind him of sorts with his magic while Obowhich was extracting energy from Gohan. As i told you, Gohan in Buu saga is slightly lower than the younger Gohan while fighting Cell. Now, the point i'm trying to prove is coming up next.

This is when the mystic training came. What the Elder Kai said about his special training is something quite interesting. What he calls it is "Menacing Capacities...." I can't exactly remember the exactly what he said but i'll try quoting. "I am able to transform a kitten into a lion. A bird into a falcon. I am able to unleash the hidden powers of anything." Or something like that. So, just imagine, a slightly under the younger SS 2 Gohan was a kitten who had his power unleashed into that of a lion. A level 2 gohan into a what? A Super Saiyan 4?! What they called it a mystic Gohan. Why? i have no idea but we know that he can't go super in that state. And it is permanent.

Now, as for strength wise, many people believe these guys arn't that strong, bench pressing compared to Supes. I disagree completely. Why? Take Broly for example. Before i go on, listen to this. See, Broly movie is Canon as well. Why? Because as Goku and Broly was shown in the Bardock movie, and Frieza was able to remember Bardock as a key character from the canon universe. And Bardock special was directly related to the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Broly was directly involved with King Vegeta, making him a major canon player and not non-canon.

So...thats right, the movie 8 and 10 is canon. And it doesn't matter if Akira didn't make the video because Goku was right next to Broly in that baby tube, thus making it canon. Now, moving on. As for Broly, during the movies we watched, Broly was a terror that ran across the galaxies. A true terror and a powerful force to be reckoned with. He could destroy planets with ease.

  

Now, we know that dbz character need very little energy to destroy planets and especially Broly. That little energy ball is nothing to Broly and it has the power to turn a planet to dust as show. Now, Broly throws those attacks all the time, especially against Goku and all Goku did was block it with his arms, not even killing him. So what does that make these dbz characters? They may not be invulnerable like supes but they are able to survive planet buster energy balls head on. As shown here...

  

Dbz characters could block, deflect, absorb and smash through energy attacks, depending on the power. Vance once said that Broly wasn't as strong as Hulk. I disagree completely. Here is my real point. At the end of the movie 8, everyone was gathering energy aka all of there energy and gave it to Goku to absorb. And Goku absorbed all of it to the point where all of the dbz characters who fought against Broly couldn't even get up from the lack of energy. See, the difference is that Goku managed to get all the energy and used it as an energy induced punch. And compare this punch to the energy ball Broly threw at the ball. All the energy vs the energy Broly used to destroy the world. And you have a punch that could consume a planet to dust particles. And Goku punched Broly in the solar plexus , so hard that Broly completely lost. Something that could turn a planet to dust and Broly survived. And what is more astonishing is that even though Broly was defeated, he managed to survive and use his energy to make a force field around him to survive in space while the planet exploded.  How much destructive energy do you suppose an exploding planet makes? A partly alive Broly in a forcefield survived that. A truly surviving race they are and Broly is living up to it. Can you imagine Broly surviving in space, traveling through space that usually takes thousands of years depending on the space ship and Broly was able to do it in a couple of years. Here is my proof, Broly made it to earth, weak and powerless from the last fight, which was in Movie 8. And he was frozen in ice at the ice mountains. And thats Movie10, where Gohan is older and Goten and trunks are there. This i believe is flawed but i merely say what i bring up. This makes Broly completely above Superman in every way, physically and energy wise.



END PART 1


Thank you folks but i have to make a part 2 after this. Tell me what you think and give m e a constructive criticism.
#2 Posted by Rdeegvainl (775 posts) - - Show Bio
See, at his stage of Gotenks SS level 1, Goku is so much stronger than them it's not even funny so this leads me to believe that SS 3 Goku can go around the world three times as fast as Gotenks.

Flawed reasoning. First, strength does not equal speed. Even if you are talking about ki energy being the strength that moves them, Goku is much larger than gotenks, so it would take more energy to move as fast, also, you don't know how much stronger goku is, and to say that would make him do it 3 times faster is not supportable by facts.

However during that fight, Frieza remembered past saiyans who he fought against. One of them was Bardock. And seeing as Bardoc was part of the dragon ball universe, this makes the Bardock special Canon.

Flawed reasoning here too. Just because there was a character known as bardoc, does not make the bardoc special and more canon than if they hadn't said the name bardoc.

The fact that they were talking about Frieza warrants the movie as a canon. To say otherwise as non canon is plain stupid because Coola specifically stated that Frieza was his brother. Thus, it makes the movie canon. Not non-canon.

Same problem as before. If someone made a non canon spiderman comic where spiderman stated that he had a cousin frieza, would not make it canon. Your reasoning is flawed.

And what is truly remarkable is that Cell also learned of this power when he got his DNA. And Cell is hundreds of times more powerful then Frieza, which would make his telepathic powers even more frightening then anything i've could ever imagine. Just think of the possibility.

Now you are throwing in rhetoric for dramatic flair. Show proof that cell is Hundreds of times more powerful than frieza. Show proof that he would be able to use frieza's telepathic power stronger than frieza could.

I can't exactly remember the exactly what he said but i'll try quoting. "I am able to transform a kitten into a lion. A bird into a falcon. I am able to unleash the hidden powers of anything." Or something like that. So, just imagine, a slightly under the younger SS 2 Gohan was a kitten who had his power unleashed into that of a lion


again more rhetoric

Because as Goku and Broly was shown in the Bardock movie, and Frieza was able to remember Bardock as a key character from the canon universe. And Bardock special was directly related to the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Broly was directly involved with King Vegeta, making him a major canon player and not non-canon.

Again the horrible attempt at reasoning.

I hoped you would actually bring facts to this, all you have going is rhetoric and hyperbole.
#3 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
Rdeegvainl said:
"See, at his stage of Gotenks SS level 1, Goku is so much stronger than them it's not even funny so this leads me to believe that SS 3 Goku can go around the world three times as fast as Gotenks.

Flawed reasoning. First, strength does not equal speed. Even if you are talking about ki energy being the strength that moves them, Goku is much larger than gotenks, so it would take more energy to move as fast, also, you don't know how much stronger goku is, and to say that would make him do it 3 times faster is not supportable by facts.

However during that fight, Frieza remembered past saiyans who he fought against. One of them was Bardock. And seeing as Bardoc was part of the dragon ball universe, this makes the Bardock special Canon.

Flawed reasoning here too. Just because there was a character known as bardoc, does not make the bardoc special and more canon than if they hadn't said the name bardoc.

The fact that they were talking about Frieza warrants the movie as a canon. To say otherwise as non canon is plain stupid because Coola specifically stated that Frieza was his brother. Thus, it makes the movie canon. Not non-canon.

Same problem as before. If someone made a non canon spiderman comic where spiderman stated that he had a cousin frieza, would not make it canon. Your reasoning is flawed.

And what is truly remarkable is that Cell also learned of this power when he got his DNA. And Cell is hundreds of times more powerful then Frieza, which would make his telepathic powers even more frightening then anything i've could ever imagine. Just think of the possibility.

Now you are throwing in rhetoric for dramatic flair. Show proof that cell is Hundreds of times more powerful than frieza. Show proof that he would be able to use frieza's telepathic power stronger than frieza could.

I can't exactly remember the exactly what he said but i'll try quoting. "I am able to transform a kitten into a lion. A bird into a falcon. I am able to unleash the hidden powers of anything." Or something like that. So, just imagine, a slightly under the younger SS 2 Gohan was a kitten who had his power unleashed into that of a lion


again more rhetoric

Because as Goku and Broly was shown in the Bardock movie, and Frieza was able to remember Bardock as a key character from the canon universe. And Bardock special was directly related to the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Broly was directly involved with King Vegeta, making him a major canon player and not non-canon.

Again the horrible attempt at reasoning.

I hoped you would actually bring facts to this, all you have going is rhetoric and hyperbole.
"
Agreed.
#4 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio

Actuallly, I think he did a pretty fine job at lowering the mechanics down to cv level fights

#5 Posted by Lantern Prime (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate it when they say use the "canon" stuff from DBZ when debating battles with Superman.  Then why don't u use the Superman info from the guy that originally created him.  Thats the "real Superman.

#6 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
Lantern Prime said:
"I hate it when they say use the "canon" stuff from DBZ when debating battles with Superman.  Then why don't u use the Superman info from the guy that originally created him.  Thats the "real Superman."
Cus they usually use current superman in specific battles. And they do have limits as well, they can't use curretn superman and prove a point with a silve age feat.

" I hate it when they say use the "canon" stuff from DBZ when debating battles with Superman"

No one was talking about superman, obviously you want to start a war against superman and dbz. 
#7 Posted by vegeta (4902 posts) - - Show Bio
Rdeegvainl said:
"See, at his stage of Gotenks SS level 1, Goku is so much stronger than them it's not even funny so this leads me to believe that SS 3 Goku can go around the world three times as fast as Gotenks.

Flawed reasoning. First, strength does not equal speed. Even if you are talking about ki energy being the strength that moves them, Goku is much larger than gotenks, so it would take more energy to move as fast, also, you don't know how much stronger goku is, and to say that would make him do it 3 times faster is not supportable by facts.

However during that fight, Frieza remembered past saiyans who he fought against. One of them was Bardock. And seeing as Bardoc was part of the dragon ball universe, this makes the Bardock special Canon.

Flawed reasoning here too. Just because there was a character known as bardoc, does not make the bardoc special and more canon than if they hadn't said the name bardoc.

The fact that they were talking about Frieza warrants the movie as a canon. To say otherwise as non canon is plain stupid because Coola specifically stated that Frieza was his brother. Thus, it makes the movie canon. Not non-canon.

Same problem as before. If someone made a non canon spiderman comic where spiderman stated that he had a cousin frieza, would not make it canon. Your reasoning is flawed.

And what is truly remarkable is that Cell also learned of this power when he got his DNA. And Cell is hundreds of times more powerful then Frieza, which would make his telepathic powers even more frightening then anything i've could ever imagine. Just think of the possibility.

Now you are throwing in rhetoric for dramatic flair. Show proof that cell is Hundreds of times more powerful than frieza. Show proof that he would be able to use frieza's telepathic power stronger than frieza could.

I can't exactly remember the exactly what he said but i'll try quoting. "I am able to transform a kitten into a lion. A bird into a falcon. I am able to unleash the hidden powers of anything." Or something like that. So, just imagine, a slightly under the younger SS 2 Gohan was a kitten who had his power unleashed into that of a lion


again more rhetoric

Because as Goku and Broly was shown in the Bardock movie, and Frieza was able to remember Bardock as a key character from the canon universe. And Bardock special was directly related to the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Broly was directly involved with King Vegeta, making him a major canon player and not non-canon.

Again the horrible attempt at reasoning.

I hoped you would actually bring facts to this, all you have going is rhetoric and hyperbole.
"
what ever he showed proof and people still dont believe
#8 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
vegeta said:
"Rdeegvainl said:
"See, at his stage of Gotenks SS level 1, Goku is so much stronger than them it's not even funny so this leads me to believe that SS 3 Goku can go around the world three times as fast as Gotenks.

Flawed reasoning. First, strength does not equal speed. Even if you are talking about ki energy being the strength that moves them, Goku is much larger than gotenks, so it would take more energy to move as fast, also, you don't know how much stronger goku is, and to say that would make him do it 3 times faster is not supportable by facts.

However during that fight, Frieza remembered past saiyans who he fought against. One of them was Bardock. And seeing as Bardoc was part of the dragon ball universe, this makes the Bardock special Canon.

Flawed reasoning here too. Just because there was a character known as bardoc, does not make the bardoc special and more canon than if they hadn't said the name bardoc.

The fact that they were talking about Frieza warrants the movie as a canon. To say otherwise as non canon is plain stupid because Coola specifically stated that Frieza was his brother. Thus, it makes the movie canon. Not non-canon.

Same problem as before. If someone made a non canon spiderman comic where spiderman stated that he had a cousin frieza, would not make it canon. Your reasoning is flawed.

And what is truly remarkable is that Cell also learned of this power when he got his DNA. And Cell is hundreds of times more powerful then Frieza, which would make his telepathic powers even more frightening then anything i've could ever imagine. Just think of the possibility.

Now you are throwing in rhetoric for dramatic flair. Show proof that cell is Hundreds of times more powerful than frieza. Show proof that he would be able to use frieza's telepathic power stronger than frieza could.

I can't exactly remember the exactly what he said but i'll try quoting. "I am able to transform a kitten into a lion. A bird into a falcon. I am able to unleash the hidden powers of anything." Or something like that. So, just imagine, a slightly under the younger SS 2 Gohan was a kitten who had his power unleashed into that of a lion


again more rhetoric

Because as Goku and Broly was shown in the Bardock movie, and Frieza was able to remember Bardock as a key character from the canon universe. And Bardock special was directly related to the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Broly was directly involved with King Vegeta, making him a major canon player and not non-canon.

Again the horrible attempt at reasoning.

I hoped you would actually bring facts to this, all you have going is rhetoric and hyperbole.
"
what ever he showed proof and people still dont believe
"
Not proof. Questionable reasoning.
#9 Posted by nkyzack (53 posts) - - Show Bio

If you watch the first saga of DBZ it's pretty much a big rip off of the Superman story. The (DBZ) characters were created at Superman level strength and increase exponentally as the series progresses. So Goku/Vegeta could beat Supes with little effort in my oppinion; the trouble is, Superman is an icon that means a whole lot more to a whole lot more people that any DBZ character ever could, so the Superman fans throw a fit when there's mention on some anime guy handing him his arse. The bottom line is they are all FICTIONAL characters and who would win is solely determined by whomever writes the fight. Plain and simple. There is no 'proof' because none of it is real. Just enjoy the fantasy folks.

#10 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
nkyzack said:
"If you watch the first saga of DBZ it's pretty much a big rip off of the Superman story. The (DBZ) characters were created at Superman level strength and increase exponentally as the series progresses. So Goku/Vegeta could beat Supes with little effort in my oppinion; the trouble is, Superman is an icon that means a whole lot more to a whole lot more people that any DBZ character ever could, so the Superman fans throw a fit when there's mention on some anime guy handing him his arse. The bottom line is they are all FICTIONAL characters and who would win is solely determined by whomever writes the fight. Plain and simple. There is no 'proof' because none of it is real. Just enjoy the fantasy folks."
Yeah. That's a nice opinion about Goku being stronger but unless it's compared to actual facts, it's just speculation.  You have to understand, Superman is stronger in the comics than in any other peices of his fiction works. 

Last part is true.
#11 Posted by nkyzack (53 posts) - - Show Bio

My point is that it's all fiction. There are no 'actual facts' to consider.

#12 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
nkyzack said:
"My point is that it's all fiction. There are no 'actual facts' to consider."
Based on characters who have a set strength, there should be, and should be used to compare characters.
#13 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
nkyzack said:
"My point is that it's all fiction. There are no 'actual facts' to consider."
Based on characters who have a set strength, there should be, and should be used to compare characters.
#14 Posted by nkyzack (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright then, going by that statement, Supes looses because the DBZ characters do NOT have set strengths. They constantly train to advance their fighting skill and in the case of the Sayains increase strength with every battle. Ergo if Superman wins the first go round then Goku returns stonger and wins.

#15 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
nkyzack said:
"Alright then, going by that statement, Supes looses because the DBZ characters do NOT have set strengths. They constantly train to advance their fighting skill and in the case of the Sayains increase strength with every battle. Ergo if Superman wins the first go round then Goku returns stonger and wins."
They do in battles. The battles rules, in a usual forums, are using characters strengths currently.  Currently, there is only end of DBZ goku, going by canon things.  Not true. He would have to train his life off, and learn a new level of super saiyan, which he can't because the series is over. :)
#16 Posted by Wisppeons (3726 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman >Goku

#17 Posted by MotorSteel (1757 posts) - - Show Bio
Wisppeons said:
"

Superman >Goku

"
Agreed :D


Seriously, I agree.
#18 Posted by brainiac 1.0 (4150 posts) - - Show Bio
Wisppeons said:
"

Superman >Goku

"

#19 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

Wisppeons said:

"

Superman >Goku

"

Well that depends on what Superman.

#20 Posted by xXi0RIXx (1736 posts) - - Show Bio

This........has to be..The most i ever read........EVER


Willpower>All the supermans combined

#21 Posted by Wisppeons (3726 posts) - - Show Bio
erik said:
"

Wisppeons said:

"

Superman >Goku

"

Well that depends on what Superman.

"

Any Superman.. Gokus a light weight.
#22 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku would get wiped against SA Superman. Already been settled.

#23 Posted by brainiac 1.0 (4150 posts) - - Show Bio
erik said:
"Goku would get wiped against SA Superman. Already been settled."

More than that superman beats goku in a EXTREME CURBSTOMP.
#24 Posted by Erik (33329 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku = overrated. Lol.

#25 Posted by nkyzack (53 posts) - - Show Bio

it all boils down to "which one do you like more" and thats who will win. DBZ kids say Goku, DC kids say Superman. And no, they don't have set powers, it fluctuates constantly. And when pussed to a certain point they either run out or tap into a deeper level of power they didn't know about. Gohan being the perfect example of this, he gets the snot knocked out of him left and right untill one of his friends gets hurt or killed, then he explodes with rage and kicks ass. And the essence of the Sayians is that they get stonger with every strugle. Sort of a constant evolution. Now... Superman is definatly a more important character in the grand sceme of things, he's an icon. But I think pretty much and Z fighter could give him a run for his money. The first season of DBZ give an origin story that's a pretty basic rip of Superman, I belive Goku and his ilk were conceived at a superman level of strength and power and grow from there.

#26 Posted by Lantern Prime (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I see why Marvel banned DBZ AND ANIME because everytime you tery to debate people jump all over you and say DC wins all the time.