DBZ destructive power FINAL DEBATE

Yeah, you're being way too reasonable for this kind of thread.

@matteopg: toriyama never stated this

@goldenoozaru22: he did it in panel at least once. I read it like years ago and I still remember it.

@matteopg: once again, I've read all of his interviews and do not recall him ever stating that. What makes your word fact? you stating this without any proof means nothing except for you spreading lies. Please show a scan, cause if he did say it, you will find it on kazenshuu.com

@goldenoozaru22: I was talking about when, in the comic book, Vegeta states that calculating power levels is useless because they can't be measured numerically. Sorry, don't have a scan now. I don't care if you "believe" me, I don't need you to agree with me. If you had read the comic book you'd know this.

@matteopg: hahaha vegeta never states that! Your being delusional, I'm sorry. The closest thing he says about power levels is when he smashes the last scouter on Namek.

http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c257/3

and yes they can be measured numerically... that's why they had scouters! And then again in the early buu series when Babidi had his own type of energy measurer.

So please stop getting ahead of yourself by making false statements.

@goldenoozaru22: wow, you really feel strongly about this. Sorry, didn't know it is so important to you. I now understand that power levels in a dated manga are at the very core of your self-worth, so I will leave you to pontificate about it.

I will go now. Peace.

@goldenoozaru22: I just read that it was 12.7 times denser. The sun is waay bigger.

I was talking to squares... not you. Your argument IS valid.

@matteopg: @generator2000:

Ohhhhhh, ok generator! My bad!

matt.... power levels are actually important to know for debates. I'm just trying to stop your lying lol.

@goldenoozaru22: maybe you should look up "important" :)

This thread is less final then the Final Getsuga Tenshou.

@goldenoozaru22: I HIGHLY doubt u have read ALL of toriyamas interviews LMFAO. It was on kazenshuu (or whatever it's called). The manga guide says that power levels become immeasurable in the 'daizenshuu'(not sure how to spell it)?? Read all of his interviews LMFAO that is a good one.

@ultron345: yes your are correct, they are all on kanzenshuu*. And guess what?? They only take a few hours to read......why do you highly doubt that? Lol. It's not like reading a Harry potter book...

@goldenoozaru22: I strongly doubt that every single interview done by a man over the course of what......30+ years are documented in its entirety let alone cataloged in one place. Just doesn't seem plausible

@ultron345: first your telling me that all of his interviews are on kanzenshuu and now your saying you doubt that they have every interview he has done.....your confusing...this is a pointless argument anyways, I've read all of the AVAILABLE ONES.

@ultron345: Interviews are in the manga.People record the interviews on website.

Seems plausible to me. there aren't thousands of interviews done lol

@goldenoozaru22: I never said all of his interviews are on kanzenshuu. When did I say that? I said I saw on kanzenshuu an article that detailed why power levels are meaningless, they ripped it from the manga guide. You confused yourself.

@sondeatheater: So you believe that Akira Toriyama never gave an interview outside of the ones recorded in his manga???????? hmmmmmm kk. That's simply absurd. That's like someone claiming they have read every interview Geoff Johns has ever given.

This was amazing...

@ultron345:

"I HIGHLY doubt u have read ALL of toriyamas interviews LMFAO. It was on kazenshuu (or whatever it's called)."

That sounds like you said all his interviews are on kanzenshuu. ..

If not, you should write a little clearer.

And no you did not say they were meaningless........

You said they were immeasurable...... you don't even know what you are saying (confusing).

And kanzenshuu translates all of his recorded interviews... they get them from the Shonen jump magazines and guide books.

So yes I have read all of his available translated interviews. And why does it matter so much to you that I've read them or not?

@goldenoozaru22: If u read one sentence out of context and not read everything in it's entirety you're bound to misinterpret.

My life does not revolve around DB and the power levels of it's characters. I was trying to remember something I read YEARS ago. And the power levels mean nothing anyway. Like trunks hulking up to the point his power level was higher than cell but he couldn't do crap to cell. Gauging a character strength off of a raw number is stupid. This is what the manga guide was referring to that I read YEARS ago. That the levels don't mean anything.

Lastly u approached me by saying u read ALL of toriyamas interviews, as if your knowledge was complete on everything toriyama has ever said thus I must be incorrect. That's why it matters.

@ultron345: lol, you approached me, I did not approach you, I was talking to someone else and you jumped in.

And re-read your first post, I did not misinterpret. Your just writing incorrectly if you tried to mean something else.

And power levels are not meaningless. If they were, roshi could beat cell. And you trying to remember something you read years ago shows that you don't know what you are talking about, because your knowledge about power levels is skewed. They consistently say throughout the series /I've never felt a power like this before". Meaning their power level is extreme and they get worried.

And your still wrong about your trunks explanation. Trunks power level was strong enough to hurt cell, however he was just to slow. We are talking about how power levels and destructive power relate, not power levels and speed. The higher the power level the higher the destructive power he can cause, Hence the higher the power level, the more one can destroy planets.

@goldenoozaru22: Firstly. My first post on this thread was directed at nobody. Post #45 u address me, not the other way around.

Secondly power levels are meaningless in the way people like you look at them as a black and white gauge to tell who is stronger. Instant transmit someone into space. If they need air let's see how much power levels mean then.

Lastly I never said trunks could not harm cell if he managed to land a blow I said he couldn't do crap to him. By all means though, continue the meaningless debate. If u want proof of them being meaningless check the official manga guide where they say so 'Mr. I know everything Toriyama has ever said'.

@ultron345:

And hahaha, once again power levels are not useless cause WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DESTRUCTIVE POWER. Get on track. Toriyama never stated that they were useless. I never said I know everything toriyama has said. But I have read his interviews and never recall him stating your lie. (Which you have failed multiple times to prove). You have turned this into a pointless argument cause you don't understand that when you state something you should be able to back it up, which you have failed to do sense post 38 where you claimed toriyama stated power levels are un accurate and unreliable. And then you later state that they are immeasurable and meaningless. You are just wrong all around. You sound like one of the guys who says ABC logic does not work in dbz...lol

This would not have gone this far if you could have done what all good debaters do is by backing up their statements with proof , instead your proof is : I read years ago that....

If power levels are meaningless, immeasurable, inaccurate, and unreliable like you state they are, prove this. But you cant, and you should probably stay away from dbz threads because you don't know what you are talking about if you think power levels are meaningless.

@goldenoozaru22: I don't care enough about the meaningless power levels in DB to bother trying to post scans of this. I don't know where to find it online, nor do I find it necessary to go searching for it. I have told you at LEAST 3 times that it is in the DB manga guide the daizenshuu or w/e it's called. How many more times do I have to tell u?!?!? Enjoy debating numbers that are irrelevant

power level olny say one guy is stronger than the next

cell>frieza

so power levels would tell you this

goku>cell so goku a solar buster ect

and debating numbers that are irrelevant

unless at said the number thay come form non canon surces

The never-ending debate keeps going

Destructive Power

-Power level of 139 obliterates the moon.

-Earth is 86x as massive as the Moon, a power level of 11,954 can destroy an Earth Sized planet in theory.

-The Sun is 330,000x as massive as the earth, a power level of 3,944,820,000 is required to blow up a planet with the same mass as the Sun. Since the sun probably doesn't have much of a solid core if any at all and is mostly a giant ball of nuclear blasts continuously exploding, it should be relatively easy to wink out with an energy wave IMO.

-Goku's official power level during the freeza fight as an SSJ1 was only 150,000,000 ( 150 million )

-Perfect Cell stated he could destroy the entire solar system, but the solar system is about 10 million times the diameter of our sun. While mostly empty space, if Cell could make good on his false claim, his power level would need to be 300 million x 10 million or around 3,000,000,000,000,000 or 3 quadrillion.

-Super Saiyan 2 is officially only 2x the power of SSJ1, so at bare minimum Goku, Perfect Cell and anyone SSJ2 in general would have a minimum power level of 300 million. In other worlds, Cell is a liar and chronic exaggerator.

-At Bare minimum, SSJ3 is only 4x SSJ2, or 1.2 billion in power level, which means he can destroy the moon 863,309 times over. It can destory the Earth 10,038 times over.

- SSJ4 is officially not canon, but official ratings were released. SSJ4 is 10x SSJ3, At minimum, SSJ4s power level is roughly 12 billion and can destroy our sun 4 times over, can destroy our moon 8.6 million times, and can destroy the earth 100,000x over. Which is still nowhere near the size of the solar system itself. Still, SSJ4 Goku can destroy a moon 8.6 MILLION TIMES THE MASS OF OUR MOON. Thats nuts. But, still nowhere near Super Nova level, which Superman can withstand and output with his laser vision. Superman has been known to tank multiple super nova level events and come away with minor injury. Not even SSJ4 Gogeta or SSG and Bill fused together going super saiyan 10 can even remotely come close to Supermans power right now. Doesn't even come within 0.01 percent of what Superman can do in the Silver Age.

-Superman winks stars much larger than ours out on a whim

-Galactus, Thanos and Odin can withstand Galaxy busting attacks...real galaxy busters and not exaggerated claims

Speed:

-Roshi with a power level of 139 was able to dodge bullets, Goku with a power level of 12 was injured by a high powered pistol from Bulma, DBZ power levels are not linear and do not scale, ie, double the power level does not mean double the ability. Someone with a power level of 1000 isn't twice as fast as someone with a power level of 500. Goku took 28 hours to get back from King Kais planet to the edge of Snake Way, thats 1 million miles in 28 hours or a speed of 35,000 miles an hour running speed. Combat Speed is definitely faster but we cant begin to calculate that. Goku's power level around this time was only 15,000-30,000 depending on the kioken and attack used.

SSJ1 is officially 150 million in power level ratings, which is 4,285x the power they were in the saiyan saga, or can run at a speed of 150,000,000 million miles an hour. The speed of light is roughly 670 million miles per hour. SSJ1 Goku can run at 25% light speed, probably combat speed at light speed.

SSJ2 double that, can run at 50% light speed, well over light speed in combat

SSJ3 is 4x that, or 2x light speed, well over that in combat

SSJ4 is 10x that, or 12x light speed, well over that in combat speed

Despite these numbers being so high and seeming like Goku can race the Flash and win, he can't. Because I don't believe in scaling and as mentioned earlier, double the power level does not mean double the speed or power. Its a lesser factor than that in my view. Pick your poison. I definitely think they are all at light speed by SSJ3 on foot and SSJ2 might be able to achieve light speed combat.

#the more you know

Ah ah ah ah! It's good that power levels are meaningless. Can you imagine the implications of somebody able to destroy the Earth 10.000 times over in one simple blow? If this is how it really worked, each punch they throw should cause explosions and move tectonic plates!

Also, if you have to resort to silver age superman to find something more absurd than the thing you like, it's really embarassing ....

Yes, thats my point. I said in there that power level scaling isn't how it is. They smack each other into the ground often and create small craters, their shock waves don't devastate the entire earth, goku and vegeta weren't able to fly fast enough to pick up hercule and dende in the buu saga after and during their conversation with each other trying to outrun Buu's deathball attack, if they could fly at even 1x light speed, they could circle the earth 7 times every second, yet were flying for their lives and four others and during conversation were unable to pick everyone up. My point was with benefit of the doubt and assuming incorrectly that double the power level equates to double the "whatever ability", the dbz warriors are extremely powerful indeed, but nowhere near the likes of a lot of DC and Marvel characters.

SSJ4 Goku could barely lift a small city block, Superman lifts the entire earth for days without feeling it, Thanos indirectly blew a planet up through sheer physical force while wrestling with another villain. DBZ characters are very strong, multi-planet busters by the time of SSJ level, but they are nowhere near as fast or as physically powerful as people make them out to be.

@michaeljulius: agreed, that manga has a particular logic about power levels, and it's not really relevant that they stay consistent: it's just a very basic story about guys slamming each other. Why can't people just enjoy that?

There will never not be a final debate.

With plot holes and bad writing on that level, I guess after a decade or two of watching the series most fans get upset by it. In one scene, just as an example, Broly blows up a moon casually with a small energy bomb the size of his hand, later he punches Vegeta full force into a solid rock-type wall from a building or something and makes a generalized crater, SSJ2 Vegeta ties Goku to a rock in the buu saga with energy rings and pummels him, the rocks behind him dont really break. When it comes to physical strength the DBZ fighters are outclassed by Thor and Hulk, similar beings by a factor so large that its not even fair to compare, but their energy output is very high and capable of destroying Earth casually after the Saiyan Saga. However, they can withstand those energy blasts, and their physical strikes are not capable of destroying huge areas of the ground. It's a giant plot hole and lazy writing, trying to make sense of what doesnt make sense in the first place.

SSJ4 Goku cant hardly lift a city block, Thor and Beta Ray lift up Asgard ( roughly the size of the USA ), Superman holds up planets. Goku and Vegeta in SSJ2 can't circle the earth anywhere near 7 times a second ( light speed ) yet people claim their combat speed is 1000x light speed. Master Roshi ran the 100 meter dash in 5.8 seconds, but later was dodging and catching bullets. While I enjoy DBZ so much, it is just a giant mess of writing and plot holes, things that dont make sense and contradict itself in just a few moments.

DBZ is a show based on physics, with the gravity chamber effects as a main plot device and used to show how powerful they are, shock waves from impact, ect ect. Most laws of physics apply to the show except light speed and sonic booms from moving so fast. I mean, if Goku could move at light speed during the tournament against Tien or Roshi, they were moving so fast nobody could see or HEAR them, no sonic booms, no blasts from moving beyond the speed of sound, imagine what light speed movement would do to the earth. Some physics apply, some dont. So, you cant really judge anything because none of it really makes a lick of sense ;) All you can do is give the power scaling the benefit of the doubt and assume double the power level equals double the abilities, even with that, SSJ4 Goku isn't even 1% of Superman, Thanos or a huge number of other DC and Marvel Mid Tier characters.

Truth is nobody is a galaxy buster, nobody is a solar system buster, and NOBODY even through GT is a light speed player. Notta one. SSJ4 times a 1000 isn't even close to Thor. IF SSJ4 Goku met up with Thor, he would laugh at Goku's strikes and his physical capabilities, but probably be impressed with his energy output. IF people wanted a basic outlook on where the DB fighters rank, its between street level and mid tier characters from DC and Marvel. Superman isn't even in the higher tier, I consider him mid level. Thanos might be on the upper end of mid tier or the lower end of high tier with Skyfathers and Galactus. The upper end of High tier goes to cosmic abstracts. DBZ warriors would crap themselves if they had to 1v1 Thor.