#1 Edited by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

*OP updated as of 8/23/12*

As you likely know, Marvel's handbook entries provide ranks for attributes in various categories (strength, fighting skill, intellect, etc). DC, however, does not have a similar system in place. So, I thought it would be fun for us to create our own "Vinefficial" rankings for the characters.

Seems cool, but how does this work?

We're going to address ranking characters two at a time. Otherwise, the discussion would be a total mess and horribly unorganized. Then after much debate, we'll agree (for the most part) on what our rankings will be for said characters in each category. The OP will be updated with the information, and then the same question will be posed for 2 more characters. I plan on leaving discussion open for two days per pair.

I love this idea, but DC has so many alternate universes. Which version do I use?

We're using the current New 52 universe. If a character's older issues are still considered canon for the most part (for example: Batman, Green Lantern, Nightwing), then feats from Pre-52 are applicable to justify rankings.

Let's get this party started. Wait, what are the rankings...?

The power grid for each character will have 6 categories, each with a scale of 1-7. 1 is the lowest, 7 is the highest.

And in case you're wondering: yes, rankings will take standard gear into account. Please keep Batman's standard cowl in mind when discussing durability.

Intelligence:
  1. Slow/Impaired
  2. Normal
  3. Learned
  4. Gifted
  5. Genius
  6. Super-Genius
  7. Omniscient
Strength:
  1. Weak: cannot lift own body weight
  2. Normal: able to lift own body weight
  3. Peak human: able to lift twice own body weight
  4. Enhanced-Superhuman: 800 lbs-25 ton range
  5. Superhuman: 25-75 ton range
  6. Superhuman: 75-100 ton range
  7. Incalculable: in excess of 100 tons
Speed:
  1. Below normal
  2. Normal-Peak Human
  3. Enhanced-Superhuman: peak range: 700 MPH
  4. Speed of sound: Mach-1
  5. Supersonic: Mach-2 through Orbital Velocity
  6. Speed of light: 186,000 miles per second
  7. Warp speed: transcending light speed
Durability:
  1. Weak
  2. Normal
  3. Enhanced
  4. Regenerative
  5. Bulletproof
  6. Superhuman
  7. Virtually indestructible
Energy Projection:
  1. None
  2. Ability to discharge energy on contact
  3. Short range, short duration, single energy type
  4. Medium range, duration, single energy type
  5. Long range, long duration, single energy type
  6. Able to discharge multiple forms of energy
  7. Virtually unlimited command of all forms of energy
Fighting Ability:
  1. Poor
  2. Normal
  3. Some training
  4. Experienced fighter
  5. Master of a single form of combat
  6. Master of several forms of combat
  7. Master of all forms of combat

Let's Begin!

Discussion is now open for the following two characters:

Catwoman & The Flash

How would you rank them for each category and why? If you disagree or agree with another post, please explain why!

Discussion on these two will end 9/04/12.

But what if...

If we already made rankings for a character but they later on have feats which could show an improved ranking (for example, a superior strength feat),then speak up! Copy/paste the following image so the post stands out from the crowd and we can review if the feat does indeed justify modifying the rank.

The handbook so far...

Batman

Intellect: 5

Strength: 4

Speed: 2

Durability: 3

Energy Projection: 1

Fighting Ability: 7

Aquaman

Intellect: 3

Strength: 5

Speed: 3

Durability: 5

Energy Projection: 3

Fighting Ability: 4

Wonder Woman

Intellect: 4

Strength: 6

Speed: 4

Durability: 6

Energy Projection: 1

Fighting Ability: 6

Nightwing

Intellect: 4

Strength: 3

Speed: 2

Durability: 3

Energy Projection: 1

Fighting Ability: 6

Staff
#2 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

And in case you're wondering: yes, rankings will take standard gear into account. Please keep Batman's standard cowl in mind when discussing durability.

Staff
#3 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
Batman 
Intellect-5 
Strength-3 
Speed-3 
Durability-3 
Energy Projection-1 
Fighting Ability-6 
 
Aquaman 
Intellect-3 
Strength-5 
Speed-3 
Durability-5 
Energy Projection-1 
Fighting Ability-3
Moderator
#4 Posted by Lvenger (16002 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

Batman
Intellect-5
Strength-3
Speed-3
Durability-3
Energy Projection-1
Fighting Ability-6

Aquaman
Intellect-3
Strength-5
Speed-3
Durability-5
Energy Projection-1
Fighting Ability-3

Most accurate rankings for these two characters that I can think of.

#5 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

I think there will be a big debate on Batman being a 6 or 7 for Fighting Ability.

Staff
#6 Posted by Twentyfive (2405 posts) - - Show Bio

Those rankings are actually very accurate lol.

#7 Posted by YoungJustice (6366 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

  • Intellect: 5
  • Strength: 3
  • Speed: 3
  • Durability: With suit 4. Without suit 3.
  • Energy Projection: 1
  • Fighting Skill: 6

Aquaman

Intellect: 2

Strength: 6

Speed: 3

Durability: 3

Energy Projection: 1

Fighting Skills: 3

#8 Posted by Lvenger (16002 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

I think there will be a big debate on Batman being a 6 or 7 for Fighting Ability.

He's learnt 127 major styles hasn't he? There are plenty more though and he does combine most of them into one style he regularly uses. I could be talking out my butt here but I think that's the case. Anyway he's definitely a 6 but 7s should be saved for Richard Dragon or uh someone else good.

#9 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman Intellect: 5 Strength: 7 Speed: 7 Durability: 6 Energy Projection: 6 Fighting Skill: 4

#10 Edited by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enosisik: We're ranking Batman & Aquaman. Please read the full OP.

Staff
#11 Posted by Wolfrazer (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, wait something isn't right for Batman...your saying he can run 700 MPH?

#12 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

I did..

#13 Posted by Strafe Prower (11573 posts) - - Show Bio

New DCnU :(

#14 Edited by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman.

Intelligence 6

Strength 4

Speed 2

Durability 2.5

Energy Projection 1

Fighting Ability 6.5

Aquaman

Intellect-3

Strength-5

Speed-3

Durability-5

Energy Projection-2 (Telepathic marine life Specific)

Fighting Ability-4

#15 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

New DCnU :(

Pre-DCnU feats are applicable for Batman. Not sure if they are for Aquman - I'll leave that to the experts.

Staff
#16 Posted by AtPhantom (14461 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@k4tzm4n said:

I think there will be a big debate on Batman being a 6 or 7 for Fighting Ability.

He's learnt 127 major styles hasn't he? There are plenty more though and he does combine most of them into one style he regularly uses. I could be talking out my butt here but I think that's the case. Anyway he's definitely a 6 but 7s should be saved for Richard Dragon or uh someone else good.

No, there ARE 127 major styles of combat (at least according to Batman). He's learned them all.

Online
#17 Edited by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, at this speed I'll edit the time per two characters. I'll lower it to two days.

Staff
#18 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

Well, at this speed I'll edit the time per two characters. I'll lower it to two days.

Are you going to average the rankings?

#19 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@k4tzm4n said:

Well, at this speed I'll edit the time per two characters. I'll lower it to two days.

Are you going to average the rankings?

No, I have no plan on even acknowledging posts that give transparently flawed rankings (for example, saying Batman has 7 strength and speed). It'll be based the quality of conversation and which rankings seem the most logical based on the intellectual conversations.

Also, they will be exact numbers, no .5s ;)

Staff
#20 Edited by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@k4tzm4n said:

Well, at this speed I'll edit the time per two characters. I'll lower it to two days.

Are you going to average the rankings?

No, I have no plan on even acknowledging posts that give transparently flawed rankings (for example, saying Batman has 7 strength and speed). It'll be based the quality of conversation and which rankings seem the most logical based on the intellectual conversations.

Also, they will be exact numbers, no .5s ;)

That makes sense.

And sorry about the .5's. I modified my rankings:

Batman.

Intelligence 6

Strength 4

Speed 2

Durability 3

Energy Projection 1

Fighting Ability 6

Aquaman

Intellect-3

Strength-5

Speed-3

Durability-5

Energy Projection-2 (Telepathic marine life Specific)

Fighting Ability-4

__________

But I am curious, for Durability, 5 is Bulletproof, and Batman's standard suit is bulletproof, so how does that work?

I made his durability 3 because I guess it is more than normal, but not regenerative.

Edit:

Are you going to average the reasonable rankings?

#21 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
Batman  
Intellect-5 
Strength-3 
Speed-3 
Durability-3 
Energy Projection-1 
Fighting Ability-6  
 
Aquaman 
Intellect-2 
Strength-4
Speed-3 
Durability-3
Energy Projection-1 
Fighting Ability-4
#22 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

Just a note for everyone, Batman can clearly lift over 800 lbs, so he is not Strength level 3. It is 4.

#23 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio

ummm alrighty then but just a note for everyone, I'm entitled to a little thing called opinion. 

#24 Posted by Billy Batson (56876 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyberninja said:

ummm alrighty then but just a note for everyone, I'm entitled to a little thing called opinion.

BB

#25 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio

Sh*t just real. 

#26 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyberninja said:

Sh*t just real.

I knew you were going to take it personally. I apologize, it wasnt a comment directed at you.

#27 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@cyberninja said:

Sh*t just real.

I knew you were going to take it personally. I apologize, it wasnt a comment directed at you.

Me? taking things seriously on the internet? I doubt that, and you don't have to apologize for anything but I respect and thank you for your concern. 
#28 Posted by Joygirl (15330 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman: 6, 4, 2, 3, 1, 6. Aquaman: 3, 5, 3, 5, 1, 3

#29 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

@/moon_bat_87/.. Pretty sure that level 4 is wrong. 800lbs to 25 tons is a huge gap. As far as I recall Cap is only a 3 while advanced guys like USAgent and Beast are listed as 4's and 5's.

#30 Edited by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

But I am curious, for Durability, 5 is Bulletproof, and Batman's standard suit is bulletproof, so how does that work?

I made his durability 3 because I guess it is more than normal, but not regenerative.

Edit:

Are you going to average the reasonable rankings?

His suit tends to fluctuate when it comes to handling bullets. We've seen them bounce off his gauntlets like they're rubber and another time he' feels the pain, but it protects him from critical damage. Personally, I view bullet proof as someone at least like Brick.

And yes, I will.

Staff
#31 Edited by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enosisik said:

@/moon_bat_87/.. Pretty sure that level 4 is wrong. 800lbs to 25 tons is a huge gap. As far as I recall Cap is only a 3 while advanced guys like USAgent and Beast are listed as 4's and 5's.

True.

Then perhaps Level 4 should be modified to include less of a gap, perhaps 800 lbs to Two tons or something like that.

Also remember that equipment is included, and Batman's current suit for example is powered (even without the new armor suits).

@cyberninja said:

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

@cyberninja said:

Sh*t just real.

I knew you were going to take it personally. I apologize, it wasnt a comment directed at you.

Me? taking things seriously on the internet? I doubt that, and you don't have to apologize for anything but I respect and thank you for your concern.

Okay, thanks. Cheers!

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

But I am curious, for Durability, 5 is Bulletproof, and Batman's standard suit is bulletproof, so how does that work?

I made his durability 3 because I guess it is more than normal, but not regenerative.

Edit:

Are you going to average the reasonable rankings?

His suit tends to fluctuate when it comes to handling bullets. We've seen them bounce off his gauntlets like they're rubber and another time he' feels the pain, but it protects him from critical damage. Personally, I view bullet proof as someone at least like Brick.

And yes, I will.

Groovy, thats what I thought. So I would stick with Durability 3.

#32 Posted by Backflip (2251 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

Intelligence: 5

Strength: 3

Speed: 3

Durability: 3

Energy: 1

Fighting: 6

Aquaman

Intelligence: 3

Strength: 5 (On Land) 7 (In Water)

Speed: 3

Durability: 5

Energy: 1

Fighting: 4

#33 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

@cyberninja said:

ummm alrighty then but just a note for everyone, I'm entitled to a little thing called opinion.

BB

I lol'd.

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

Just a note for everyone, Batman can clearly lift over 800 lbs, so he is not Strength level 3. It is 4.

@cyberninja said:

ummm alrighty then but just a note for everyone, I'm entitled to a little thing called opinion.

Well, the topic is open for 2 days to discuss the matter and present evidence if you want ;)

Staff
#34 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Moon_Bat_87 said:

Just a note for everyone, Batman can clearly lift over 800 lbs, so he is not Strength level 3. It is 4.

@cyberninja said:

ummm alrighty then but just a note for everyone, I'm entitled to a little thing called opinion.

Well, the topic is open for 2 days to discuss the matter and present evidence if you want ;)

Okay, I wasnt sure if we could present evidence with scans.

I will do....

#35 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Moon_Bat_87: Yup!

Per the OP

Let's Begin!
Discussion is now open for the following two characters:
Batman & Aquaman
How would you rank them for each category and why? If you disagree or agree with another post, please explain why!
Discussion on these two will end 8/22/12.
Staff
#36 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Do you honestly think batman can lift 800 lbs? 
#37 Posted by The_Thunderer (2890 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

  • Intellect - 6
  • Strength - 3
  • Speed - 2
  • Durability - 3
  • Energy Projection - 1
  • Fighting Ability - 7

Aquaman

  • Intellect - 4
  • Strength - 5
  • Speed - 3
  • Durability - 5
  • Energy Projection - 4
  • Fighting Ability - 4
#38 Edited by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyberninja said:

@k4tzm4n: Do you honestly think batman can lift 800 lbs?

I think he can do whatever he wants to.

Know why?

He's Batman!

But really, I'm not playing a part in the debates here. I'm just going to manage the thread and judge when the time is up :D

Staff
#39 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Well played sir, well played indeed. 
#40 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman:

Okay, some Strength feats from Batman, which I have already used multiple times.

The first image shows Bruce benching weights that are larger than anything we have seen in real life. 6 on each side. Likely weighing 150 lbs based on size and width. That is 900 a side. 1800 total. That is his regular bench press weight. So his maximum would be between 100-300 lbs higher.

Even at 100 lbs each plate, that is 600 lbs total for each side, 1200 total, then add 100-300 lbs for maximum.

The second image shows Bruce benching weight, 4 on each side. The second largest is labeled 500 lbs. That makes the largest 550 lbs. The other two are 100 and 50 lbs in all likely hood. That is 2400 lbs total. Add 100-330 lbs for maximum.

Even if it is 500 each side, that is 1000 lbs total, add 100-330 lbs for maximum.

Other than Strength, I think the only other thing I disagree with the rankings is intelligence. I think Batman is a 6 not a 5, but I will produce those scans later.

Aquaman:

I think we need to increase Aquaman's stats (the averages from the current ranks) up a bit. Here are some feats to suggest why:

His stats should be:

Intelligence 3. Strength 6. Speed 4. Durability 5. Energy Projection 3. Fighting Ability 4.

Also see this thread for more feats: http://www.comicvine.com/aquaman/29-2357/the-aquaman-respect-thread/92-557547/?page=2

#41 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

What's written > What's drawn! He's not supossed to be superhuman no matter what the picture shows or a writer needs him to do for plot. I just think that the rankings are wrong because they are so outdated . Athletes often lift multipal times their weight these days and no one is 'peak human'. 800lbs curl would be superhuman . 800lbs bench you're one of very few. 800lbs dead lift, one of many .

#42 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enosisik said:

What's written > What's drawn! He's not supossed to be superhuman no matter what the picture shows or a writer needs him to do for plot. I just think that the rankings are wrong because they are so outdated . Athletes often lift multipal times their weight these days and no one is 'peak human'. 800lbs curl would be superhuman . 800lbs bench you're one of very few. 800lbs dead lift, one of many .

Actually none of those pictures were done just for plot. And it is widely accepted that he benches at least 1000 lbs, I just argue it is much more.

But I do agree rankings are outdated. I would suggest modifying Level 4 to something else.

#43 Posted by Saren (24306 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

Batman
Intellect-5
Strength-3
Speed-3
Durability-3
Energy Projection-1
Fighting Ability-6

Aquaman Intellect-3 Strength-5 Speed-3 Durability-5 Energy Projection-1 Fighting Ability-3
Moderator
#44 Posted by RazzaTazz (9348 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is considered a olympic level athletic ability or above. Take into consideration that even if he is faster than Usain, that his top speed that he could maintain for twenty seconds would be about 50 km/h. That is about 30 mph. It is not fair to put him in class 3 for speed in that case. As for fighting ability, if he isn't a 7 then no one is.

As for Aquaman getting a 2 for energy, should there maybe be another category for special abilities? because that doesn't really apply to energy.

Moderator
#45 Posted by pellicanpower (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't it say several times that Bruce mastered every fighting style? I'd rank him a 7 in fighting ability in that case

#46 Posted by k4tzm4n (35195 posts) - - Show Bio

At the moment, these are what the rankings look like.

Batman
Intellect-5
Strength-3
Speed-3
Durability-3
Energy Projection-1
Fighting Ability-6
Aquaman
Intellect-3
Strength-5
Speed-3
Durability-5
Energy Projection-1
Fighting Ability-4

It seems as though the biggest disputes are currently:

Batman's intellect, speed, strength and fighting ability.

Aquaman's strength and speed.

If you wish to alter these, there's still a day to get your debate on, make a case and convince others. Have at it, Vine.

Staff
#47 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

@/moon_bat_87/ .. I said what the writer writes for plot not what the artist draws. Yeah the world record for bench is like 1068 lbs but only this one person has ever lifted over 1000lbs realistically the human limit probably isn't much more than a few hundred pounds more.

#48 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19489 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooooohh neat. I have a DC handbook I could use to help out on this.

#49 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

I think one of the problems is that the ranks are a bit to far in scale. Especially Speed and Strength Level 3's.

@Enosisik said:

@/moon_bat_87/ .. I said what the writer writes for plot not what the artist draws. Yeah the world record for bench is like 1068 lbs but only this one person has ever lifted over 1000lbs realistically the human limit probably isn't much more than a few hundred pounds more.

Not its 1075 lbs, as I mentioned, by Ryan Kennelly, but that is semantics. Either way Batman has lifted more and clearly does it on a regular basis.

And I dont think someone has not made a case for why Batman is Strength level 3 instead of the level 4 as I proposed.

Especially when you consider that his normal suit, which is included, increases his strength.

I also see how Batman's speed fits into superhuman levels. But to be honest the range is so dramatic from peak human to 700 mph maximum.

As for a level 7 rate for Fighting ability, it is said in some scans that he has mastered all martial arts, but not every one. But then are scans that say he has mastered nearly every martial art. I think Karate Kid is the only one that would get a 7.

@RazzaTazz said:

Batman is considered a olympic level athletic ability or above. Take into consideration that even if he is faster than Usain, that his top speed that he could maintain for twenty seconds would be about 50 km/h. That is about 30 mph. It is not fair to put him in class 3 for speed in that case. As for fighting ability, if he isn't a 7 then no one is.

As for Aquaman getting a 2 for energy, should there maybe be another category for special abilities? because that doesn't really apply to energy.

I do think there should be a special category for special abilities, because Aquaman has them and they are powerful. But if we have to fit it into anything it would be energy projection, and a 2 or 3 better reflects his abilities than a 1.

Aquaman can also swim at speeds nearing Mach 1 I believe, and I think that is addressed in the scans.

Aquaman is kinda hard to rate because his powers are not reflective on land as much as they are in sea.

Aquaman has strength feats such as lifting buildings and holding up fallen towers, and these things weigh much more than 75 tons.

#50 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@norrotmops said:

@Moon_Bat_87: the scan i showed above states he mastered all fighting styles.

I trust you. But I cant magnify it enough to read it.