Count Dooku VS Mace Windu- who's the more skilled duelist?

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WollfMyth209

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Edited By WollfMyth209

Before I start, I'd like to thank @shootingnova for inspiring me to do this with his Count Dooku VS Mace Windu blog, link here.

In his blog, Nova provided his thoughts on who'd win in an all out battle. Nova, after addressing their dueling feats, placed them as on par, and considered that Dooku could be slightly more skilled. I decided to make a detailed analysis on who is the more skilled duelist overall. So I highly recommend all of you to check out Nova's blog first(if you haven't already) and now for my analysis to begin:

Who's more skilled, Windu or Dooku?

No Caption Provided

Before I start, I'll address the elephant in the room, Windu's duel with Sidious.

First of all, there is a theory that Sidious held back. I myself do not actually agree with that, but there is a heavy amount of evidence that suggests that this is true. However, Mace did have a massive amp in his battle with Sidious. His Vaapad style kept increasing his power and skill due to it's ability to channel darkness from aggressive fighters.

The other thing that needs to be addressed is Vaapad itself. This form granted Windu an amp only once when he kept using it to it's highest degree against Sidious, who was considered the purest incarnation of the Dark Side. So Windu getting an amp from Dooku is highly unlikely. Dooku is even a calm fighter, using Makashi and remaining elegent and calm. So Vaapad's effectiveness isn't an edge. Plus Dooku countered Bulq's Vaapad usage and defeated Bulq handily. Now then, to continue:




Duel against Asajj Ventress

I'll firstly address how both of these two have faced Ventress in combat.

Here is Windu versus Asajj:

Windu firstly attacks Asajj Ventress. She seems to defend against his attack well enough and smiled, commenting on Windu's power.

No Caption Provided

Asajj then lands a blow on the Jedi Master, and we can see Windu injured by this attack.

No Caption Provided

Then the two continue their duel, blade locking and Asajj realizing she is facing a superior combatant. She then decides to flee, though we never see how long she could've lasted had she stayed.

It was later stated that it took Windu all of his skill to defeat Ventress.

Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress.

Source: The Official Star Wars FactFile 108

Now to compare how Dooku handled Ventress:

In the video above, Dooku didn't even want to kill Ventress(holding back for the most part to test her skill) and he still outclassed her.

In the video above, Dooku was winning against Asajj Ventress and two Nightsisters while poisoned. He was disarmed only at the end when he grew tired, and still defeated the Nightsisters afterwords.

In the video above, Dooku holds an advantage over both Savage Opress and Asajj Ventress.

So we see Dooku handling Ventress better than Windu did, however only slightly.




Duel against Sora Bulq

Here we see Mace Windu and Sora Bulq fighting each other, the battle was as stalemate for the most part and Windu had to use the Force to dispatch Bulq.

And now here we see Dooku deal with Bulq in a few seconds. They lock blades a few times, Dooku throws Bulq's partner Tholme, and then handily disarms Bulq.

No Caption Provided

One thing to note, however, was that Bulq has expirience with Windu and his fighting style/tactic and he likely knew how to combat it. This edge is not something he had against Dooku. But, Bulq still managed to challenge Windu and his expirience of Windu could've only aided him to a point. Dooku, on the other hand, still absolutely stomped Sora Bulq.

Again, he see Dooku having a superior showing than Windu against a common foe.




Duel against General Grievous

To start off, here's Windu and General Grievous stalemating each other for most of the battle, with Windu only being marginally superior, but General Grievous had his manuverability shortend:

Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos. Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed. Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

And here we see Dooku holding a distinct edge over General Grievous:

Now Dooku holds the advantage over Grievous that he knew his style/tactic, but this edge can only go so far. And Dooku's showing against the droid General is still superior by a fair amount.




Other duels

This isn't as relevant as their duels against common foes, but it's worth mentioning.

Mace Windu has been shown stalemating the highly renowned and skilled Saesee Tiin in a sparring match, outfought Quinlan Vos in a sparring match, held off Depa Billaba whilst under major negative circumstances, easily bested Jango Fett, one of the best Bounty Hunters ever.

Dooku has been shown stomping Tholme, defeating AoTC Anakin Skywalker easily, stomping AoTC Kenobi and handily defeating TCW/RoTS Obi-Wan Kenobi, handily defeating Savage Opress, stalemating RoTS Anakin(who had the Djem So advantage), holding off Grandmaster Yoda(twice).

Judging by their seperate matches against different foes, they appear to be equals.




Verdict

As we see from their overall dueling feats, and duels against common foes, Dooku appears to have the advantage.

Dooku is also somewhat of a more tactical fighter. Mace Windu is a highly aggressive fighter, unleashing himself in a duel and rarely ever going on the defensive. Dooku is the exact opposite. He's mostly defensive and uses back and forth offensive manuvers to move around one's defense and slash them.

An example of Dooku's tactic:

So on par with having slightly better feats, Dooku is a more tactical duelist.

So I personally feel Dooku is a superior duelist to Mace Windu. To further my point, there's this quote:

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

-Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

We see Dooku was always considered an equal or downright superior duelist to Mace Windu. And in a Lightsaber duel, I see Dooku taking 6-6.5/10, but no more than that. It will in any case be an excellent fight.

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deactivated-5c80832cdb7ee

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I'd also Came up with that blog 2 man

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WollfMyth209

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@b_tank: You did? Well make it if you'd like. Maybe we have different opinions and you can explain yours through your blog as well.

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Nice, nice.

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No Caption Provided

Count Dooku of course. :-D

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DarthManhunter

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Nice blog man, just one question if I may? Didnt the fight with Windu and Ventress come after Dooku's fight with Ventress? When she would have been more skilled dueling against Windu? Although I could certainly be remembering that incorrectly, lol hard for me to remember all the battles.

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#7  Edited By WollfMyth209

@darthmanhunter: The duel of Mace and Asajj happened in 22 BBY, the duels where Asajj had back against Dooku happened around 20 BBY, so two years after Mace's fight, so Asajj's skill likely improved. And thanks for the compliment

@comicbookhoarder Never underestimate Dooku.

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@wollfmyth209: Ahhh thank you sir. And your welcome.

Off-topic here, but did you see the feat of Yoda quickly disarming Ventress and casually carrying on a conversation with someone, while Dooku watched via hologram? TCW cant remember the episode Ill try to find it. Loved it though, always like when Yoda shows up to quickly school someone, and make them look like a padawan. Anyway sorry to go off-topic here.

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@darthmanhunter: It's OK and it was the first episode of the first season, and it's one of my personal favs. Yoda these days doesn't get much respect because of people like Jensaarai, EvanNova and Reti4 place him lower than he is because of their biased opinion.
Just look at how cool Yoda is:

My Yoda Respect Thread

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@wollfmyth209: Lol you beat me too it! Haha. Just found it myself, cant believe I couldnt remember its The First Episode. Haha. Ill check out the Yoda thread thanks!

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#11  Edited By WollfMyth209
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#12  Edited By Comicbookhoarder
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Penderor

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Counter Dooku.

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@wollfmyth209: For sure. Good thing they chose Christopher Lee. He is one of the oldest people with swag. hahaha

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freesid_stf123

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#16  Edited By freesid_stf123

Nice blog, and i agree dooku is the more skilled duelist. It's almost hilarious to see so much controversy when windu is pitted against anyone.

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Hyperlight

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I could see dooku being a more skilled duelist seeing as his style is used in the majority against other lightsaber wielders but I believe mace is still an all around more knowledgeable and skilled lightsaber weilder

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WollfMyth209

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Nice blog, and i agree dooku is the more skilled duelist. It's almost hilarious to see so much controversy when windu is pitted against anyone.

Thanks for the compliment, and yes it is weird. It's either them wanking or overexaggerating his feats against Dooku and Ventress, overlooking other feats like Grievous stalemating him, and not looking at circumstances when he dueled Sidious. They're mostly just like: "He has Vaapad, he beat Sidious. That's enough, he wins!"

mace is still an all around more knowledgeable and skilled lightsaber weilder

One could argue Mace equals Dooku in skill, but I doubt he's more knowledgeable. Knowledge is usually irrelevant in a duel, and Dooku is quite a bit older than Mace and has been training all his life to perfect his dueling skill and study of the Force.

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@wollfmyth209: agreed, or they just see his dismantling of droids on dantooine and assume he is god, when people like yoda, sidious etc could do that on their worst day.

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I think dooku takes this in a hard fought battle. Being a Form II user, dooku was a freak in his form. The biggest listed weakness that Form II holds is against physically superior opponents who use more aggressive strikes through force (as windu does). However, dooku has demonstrated over the years that this didn't necessarily equal a weakness to his style. That long with being a severe tactician, outweighs windus sheer strength and brash fighting (though very skilled).

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TheRedHeadedYeti

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Dooku should take it, it would however, be a close contest.

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deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28

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I pretty much agree with your assesment. Theyre have been quotes that proclaim they are equal while other say they are close. I personally would put Dooku above Windu but not by much.

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IIRC Dooku was stated to be the best Duelist on the council in Plagueis

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@darthduelist9: Thanks. And yeah, this is pretty close.

IIRC Dooku was stated to be the best Duelist on the council in Plagueis

He was never stated that, but Yoda was. And Dooku wasn't even on the Council, IIRC. He was a maverick similar to Jinn, that's why he couldn't be elevated.

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How would Windu of against episode 3 Anakin and Obi Wan, in your opinion?

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@ultrastarkiller: Quite honestly, one of the major factors Dooku even had any level of combating the duo was because he exploited Kenobi's weak defenses of attacks of Dooku's caliber and because he knew how to work his way around two combatants. Windu doesn't have either of the following edges, therefore he can't exploit it so he'd lose.

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Missing some context here

The art style of the dark horse comics often takes one movement through to the next, In the Mace vs Ventress fight, she doesn't land a blow. Mace overheads her mid-air (note the grips on her sabers) she then immediately locks them into a saber staff and swings at him while he's in mid-air and he has to re-orient himself to avoid it hence the strain. Additionally, as an owner of all the fact files they're ridiculously inaccurate and further down in the same file it says he drove her off easily

To address Dooku's performances against Ventress

1. Dooku's fight was against untrained fresh off Ratatak Ventress, while Windu's engagement came after her training with Dooku. Meaning he fought the superior combatant

2. As far the dueling portion of that fight went Dooku was exhausted and defeated by a nerfed (duel blades are her preference and she has consistently been shown to be weaker with one) Ventress and two featless nightsister's and was only saved by his force abilities. To address the poison, in multiple sources it has been stated that standard toxins don't effect one's connection to the force. Additionally, Talzin stated that it would dull his senses and the effects made him blind, hardly a factor for a trained force user. From it's effects and Talzin's statements we can infer that it was only a standard toxin and thus played no role in the battle .

Furthermore Dooku trained Ventress and thus would be far more familiar against her style than Windu adding a further circumstances to his performances

To address Bulq

The fight started off panel and could have continued for some time before our introduction to it so Dooku could have taken longer to disarm Bulq especially when you time the dialogue

Also, Bulq and Windu developed Vaapad together and sparred countless times meaning that Bulq was infinitely more familiar with Windu than with Dooku adding further extraneous circumstances to this "stalemate". Additionally if one looks at the panels. Windu is defensive the whole time and his expression is the same one he had against Vos while Bulq is wild and constantly attacking if Bulq was truly on equal terms with Windu he would have been strained. Additionally once Windu realises that the other Jedi are in danger he causally dismisses Bulq in one strike indicating that he could have done so from the beginning and much like with Ventress was attempting to take him alive. I fail to see how this is a stalemate

As for Grievous

IMO Grievous never really fights himself, much like Kenobi giving himself to the force I believe Grievous's computer fights more than him. From my point of view Grievous could never really be beaten offensively (like Windu tried) as his computer would simply adapt and match whatever is thrown at him.

"Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough"

I also do not believe Grievous truly controlled his actions in combat. Simple commands like "Faster" against Kenobi or "Stronger" were about the level control he had, while his combat algorithms handled the rest. This is why Kenobi was the only Jedi who could defeat him, as his purely defensive stance gave Grievous nothing to adapt too. As for Dooku, during their training session Dooku was always on the defensive similar Kenobi. The fact that Grievous was beginning to counter Dooku can also be explained this way. Makashi encouraged the development of unusual and personalized maneuvers, Dooku personified this, rarely if ever responding the same way to tactical circumstances. By the end of the Clone Wars, despite Dooku's large repertoire of moves Grievous's combat computer had simply documented the majority allowing him to predict and counter his moves thus explaining the Counts increased difficulty. Therefore though his physical enhancements place him on and around the level of Jedi Masters, in direct combat I believe we should more accredit Grievous feats to his droid brain than his own.

I fail to see how this is a stalemate either. In fact it is a nigh perfect parallel to Dooku's sparring match specifically 0:12 to 0:20

That's my opinion anyway, you have a right to your own

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So mace can beat Sidious but not Dooku?

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MasterKungFu

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different styles

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jumpstart55

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They would probably end up stalemating each other, But i give the edge to Mace because of his slightly superior skills as a duelist.

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#31  Edited By silentbat

@jumpstart55: What superior skill? Dooku is a more technical fighter than Windu. If Mace were to win I would say it was more due to his ability to sustain a long-form fight, unlike Dooku who has grown tired on several occasion.

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@SilentBat: This is an ancient blog of mine, Antoine, I honestly don't see any need to respond to it, especially now when my opinion changed and I consider them equals :P

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Dooku should be the better duelist due to his form being better suited for dueling. We also know that Dooku has more experience dueling than Mace.

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Interesting