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Doesn't really matter.. but not Dynamite.
that would be me...with all apologies I was trying to hit other (can we change are votes? or is it permenant) i have always hated marvels treatment of women...and lately DC is specifically trying to win a prize for the worst lately (with the downfall of two of its greatest heroines)
Could you elaborate on which "two greatest heroines" you're referring to? Because the Wonder Woman series is absolutely amazing right now and has literally elevated Wonder Woman to God-status. I'd say that's treating her pretty fantastic.
I saw this (pasted below) posted on the other thread (the article version) she says it very eloquently... and in a better way than I ever can (and with more weight since I am male) the other is Batwoman...its not really a downfall..its just a bad descision but Its nice too see another strong female title. and Wonder Woman is/ was good, until they made the awful choice that Husk explains below.
i love the way wonderwoman is portrayed but do you guys know what this thread needs? a female perspective
am I not female enough?
and Wonder Woman was great... until they insulted us with that superman/wonder woman... garbage
i didnt know lol. and i dont understand the hate for that pairing. why is it "garbage" because i for one love it
theres a sordid history with Wonder Woman, and its a step in the wrong direction after a good recent track record.
Id like to compare it to when they depowered her way back in the days post WW2... but it isn't nearly as bad.
in Elseworlds the Superman Wonder Woman has been done several times before... and everytime its been a jumping on point for her submitting to his might. It almost writes itself , why does the most powerful female hero have to pair up with a more powerful male counterpart, intended or not its a message of control. he is there to control and passivate her. and in Frank Millers abominations...tame her. you can't remove the tainted past of this relationship. you can't remove the stigma that the most powerful woman in the world, Must fall in love with the one man that can overpower her.
written well or not, its insulting....
And beyond that, Wonder Woman, of all super heroes should remain a complete an utter role model, through and through. she should never falter. there are plenty of male superheroes, who lack weakness... Wonder Woman should be the shining example of the same strength of will.
@bierschneeman: Ah, okay well see I'm not a huge fan (I try to remain neutral on the issue so as to not be too annoyed about it) of the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing. My reaction was the same as Booster Gold's in the JLI Annual: "What the hell?"
I am going purely by her in the Wonder Woman and Justice League books. I think that while yes the relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman isn't all that fantastic, that it hasn't brought her character down in any way. It doesn't somehow make her lesser or anything. I haven't felt that way at least. I think that there are better people she could be with, story-wise (or hell, why does she need to be with anyone at all?), but I think that in Wonder Woman and Justice League it hasn't brought her down in any way. And Superman/Wonder Woman is a title that my sister wants to get (she's 12, and absolutely loves both of them) so I'm going to buy it for her and since I'm shelling out the cash for it, I might as well give it a chance myself so I'm gonna be reading it too. I just hope that it doesn't do what you guys have said that her being paired with Superman always does.
Overall point: I don't think that Wonder Woman is at all lesser in the New 52, and I really really enjoy just about everything about her solo series. It just keeps pumping her up with more power and she's definitely the strongest of that entire cast (even Orion, Hera, etc.).
Which reminds me, Wonder Woman's New 52 supporting cast is mostly female and has been very, very good thusfar.
@extremis: I'm sure that's partly because people are using this, as always, to air out their opinions on DC vs Marvel rather than the question at hand. But I also think that in this case there's some reason to do so - DC and Marvel control the content they publish and the treatment of the characters within that content far more than Image which is set up to facilitate creator-owned content. Not to diminish their work in making good choices about whose work to publish, but while I appreciate Image's good sense in choosing people such as Rucka and Vaughan, they probably didn't go, "Hey, we need a space opera and a sci-fi thriller featuring a woman, let's go see who we can rustle up!" and their editorial department isn't ultimately responsible for the direction of these characters.
It's certainly a good sign that the largest original-content focused publisher is doing well in this regard - it suggests good things about the stuff people want to write and read about. But I think the added separation between the content and the publisher is something that may make it less instinctive to compare it to companies that work with licenses or shared universes.
I'll say this and I know it's politically incorrect: as long as you have an industry with a overwhelming majority of white/jew creators it is going to be hard for them to consistently write/create diverse characters, not because they are racist, but they do what comes matural to them, in their viewpoint. It does not reflect the diversity some fans want, but that comes comes with thw territory.
As far as who treatz women better I'll go with Marvel. I always felt Wonder Woman should have gotten with Batman or the Flash, it sends an overall better message.
Marvel makes really interesting females I gravitate to mmore. I LOVED the marriage of Black Panther amd Storm.
I'm not saying any company is getting it 100% right at the moment... but who the heck voted for DC? You are aware that just because they have many female characters doesn't mean they treat them or depict them well right?
DC has the biggest female characters. Maybe they aren't doing it right, but their female characters are making the most noise. Buffy is probably the only female character that they don't own that's really popular.
In terms of PORTRAYAL, I'd have to say Marvel is better. While I prefer DC's female characters overall (I'll throw in Dynamite's Red Sonja for good measure), I think Marvel does a better job at depicting women.
Mind you, I'm not a female, so I don't want to be presumptuous. I'd actually like to hear the opinions of some female viners.
Maybe I'm missing something because I'm a guy, but I really don't see the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship as being insulting to her. In my mind, they are both of equal power and he couldn't "tame" or "overpower" her if he wanted to. Ever see that episode of the Justice League cartoon where she was hallucinating and beat the snot out of Superman because she thought he was a demon? Yeah, they're equal in my mind. Plus, their relationship makes sense the way Johns introduced it this time; They're both demigods who feel alone in the world of mortals, so why wouldn't they hook up if they had that in common? Like a man and woman shipwrecked on an island (a comparable situation) wouldn't eventually fall in love out of sheer loneliness? Azzarello's Wonder Woman stories have been AMAZING and have really elevated her character in my mind. Plus, she can hang with the "Big Boys" just as much as any other super powered hero/heroine (just ask Orion's nuts...that scene still makes me cringe).
Female characters can be just as respected and strong either naked or clothed it just depends how are they treated and use of dialogue. I have no problem with nude or skimpy characters because I believe its of a way of expressing heroic nudity and that's a difference between over sexualized or slutty which is mainly when characters are badly written.
I voted for DC because of Wonder Woman, Mera (From Aquaman), Batgirl, and Batwoman. All Fantastic women in their own rights. I can't think of anyone from Marvel besides maybe Kitty Pride from what little I read from The All-New X-men. I know there is probably more, I just don't have any that stick out.
As for the other companies...I'm sorry, but I haven't read anything but DC or Marvel :(
Top Cow and Aspen both of their flagship characters are women. Top Cow's Sarah Pezini, the hero of witchblade, has been a strong female presence in comics coming on 18 years as well as their most popular character. Aspen comics was founded with a female character as their flagship from creation.
This is a really tough one. If we are talking historically, the clear answer is Marvel. When I started reading comics, DC easily had the strongest female characters around. And right now Image is just killing it with female characters. I ended up going with Image.
I can't really give it to anyone but Marvel or DC. These other publishers aren't making enough noise to even be considered. It's easier to have a female character in the forefront like Buffy or Aspen Matthews or Red Sonja when you're not publishing 100% of the most popular books on the market. I have to make room for a Vampirella or a Dejah Thoris if i'm publishing Superman, Batman, Justice League, Avengers, Thor, Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-Man, etc. I have to commend DC for even having popular female characters despite the structure of their roster and they always consider their female characters despite the fact they sometimes lag far behind in sales.
"You know DC bias exists on here when we're talking about positive female representation and it somehow gets more votes than Image.
HAHAHAHABA MetH is not alone. THe Vine is filled witH DC fanboys. It is TRUE! Don't be fooled by tHe lies.
I feel like people are putting more stock in whether or not the title character is female and less on the characters' portrayals. While Marvel doesn't have many title featuring women as leads they have a lot of team books which is where you get to see how the characters interact with each other. I'm not well versed enough in Image to speak on the subject but Marvel has a wide range or female characters all of who have unique personalities whether you have Mary-Jane Watson or Lady Sif. They all get their own characterizations and writers don't fall back on 'oh she's a woman so this is how she acts' but write more along the lines of 'oh well XY and Z have happened in the past which would create a moment like this'.
More dynamic characters who have come to the forefront lately would be Jubilee, Storm and Sif. Jubilee not all that long ago went through a pretty rough transition into being a vampire and dealing with the affects of it.
Storms recent divorce has done absolutely nothing to slow down her general badassery and has added more layer to a character people were already quite familiar with without going through the usual process of breaking them to pieces in the process.
As for Sif, well for starters I bring that up to the argument that Ms. Marvel is the only book with a female lead. Journey Into Mystery shifted its protagonist from Kid Loke (awesome run) to Lady Sif. The ongoing has done a great job showing her relationship with the other Asgradians, her half-brother in particular, while solidly proving why she stands out among them. The book was very tightly tied to the Thor title in the past but with Sif you see more of a break away towards the chance of defining her character and exactly why she is so exceptional.
The treatment of women shouldn't be based solely on which company has the most titles, but also on how the characters are actually shown in all the books.
It's more than just the number of women and wether or not they're sexualized. First, that's part of any person, especially anyone as ridiculously good looking as the majority of comic book heroes. Second, just because they have female badass was doesn't mean they are fleshed out. Take Atom Eve over at Image. One of my favorite characters, but she is still used as Mark'd girlfriend first and foremost. Then look at Chew where Tony literally took pieces of two women out of his freezer. None of these companies is perfect. It comes down to what characters aren't actively negative. I, for one, love some of what they've been doing with Storm and Psylocke lately. Plus Mera has always been a badass, along with Wonder Woman and all the other standbys. It still comes down to some of the classic representations of women in literature being "off" because of things like the Madonna/whore complex and whatnot.
I'd say marvel over everyone else because while image does it very well (Lets not even mention DC, or dynamite), Marvel's women stay strong and respectable while maintaining their femininity they aren't type-casted as "the strong independent black woman who don't need no man!". While image, in several of its books, choose to make a female character strong by writing them as if they were a man. At least that has been my experience with them. Take a look at lazarus, true forever is a great character, but I don't think the book would change very much if she was a guy. However, the women of saga are very well written.
I still feel inclined to give my vote to DC. Yes some aspects of the New 52 aren't the best to women but DC still does the best job of putting their female characters front and centre by giving them plenty of attention and their own series. Plus aside from Catwoman, DC heroines aren't as sexualised for rowdy male readers as Marvel heroines are IMO
I can honestly say that while no one is perfect at women in comic books I have to cast my vote for Marvel, with titles like Captain Marvel, Fearless Defenders, X-men, and most of the members of Uncanny X-force and FF. Although I do admit marvel has its faults but then again so do a lot of publishers.