CinemaSins Makes a Good Point About MCU Phase 2

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EyeDCyou

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#1  Edited By EyeDCyou

So I was really bored today, and watched a bunch of cinemasins. After watching some videos on phase 2 MCU films, I noticed something that was continuously brought up, and that is actually a good point. Every standalone Marvel film since The Avengers (excluding GotG) has featured a scenario where another Avenger DEFINITELY should've helped. I'll break it down.

Iron Man 3 - Killian orchestrates several large terrorist attacks around the world, and KIDNAPS THE F***ING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. You're gonna tell me no one, not even SHIELD or Captain AMERICA is going to call Tony and ask if he needs any help?

Thor: The Dark World - Towards the films climax, Malikith and the Aether are basically on the brink of destroying the entire world.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Nick Fury is 'killed', and ALL of SHIELD is compromised. Not to mention that the helicarriers are going to be used to kill millions worldwide. I know this film had Black Widow in it, but come on, none of the big boys are interested in helping the organization that presides over them?

Now I know that these are solo films, and are supposed to just feature the title character, but ever since Avengers, the conflicts of the movies have become a little too extreme for it to be believable that The Avengers wouldn't show up to help. Phase 1 did a great job at keeping the solo film conflicts pretty tame.

Iron Man- Stane wants to kill Stark and unlock the Iron Man tech so that he can take over the company and continue the sale of weapons. This is basically just a Tony problem.

Captain America: The First Avenger - The threat is extreme, but it takes place in WW2, so the Avengers didn't even exist.

Thor- The conflict is basically Loki wanting to take over Asgard and get rid of Thor. This doesn't really have anything to do with Earth.

So that's my point. Don't get me wrong, I love the MCU. I just wish that they would tone down the conflicts of the solo movies if I'm supposed to believe that the Avengers are out there just sitting on their asses while these things happen. Hopefully phase 3 and The DCCU will do a better job at this.

Since people are crying: I know this is being nitpicky. I'm not mad at Marvel for doing this, and I'm not really even complaining. I just thought it was funny, and that it seems kind of lazy.

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Jhaigo

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First off Tony is the only one who I feel would be able to get involved as Bruce is doing his not getting angry thing, Thor is in Asgard, Black WIdow and Hawkeye wouldn't really help that much and have their on missions and Steve has his own stuff to do with Shield. FOr Winter Soldier also none of the Avengers would have heard about it becuase Hydra wasn't really the type to tell a band of rogue superheroes that heir commander had been killed. Iron Man 3 it is wierd that Shield didn't care. Dark World THor seemed to want to settle this himself.

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Ultifan123

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Only the arguments for iron man 3 and cap winter soldier make sense. What do you mean the big boys tho? Cap has reflexes superior to anyone in the MCU except hulk. Cap is arguably the "biggest boy" on the team. He can handle ironman, thor, hulk, etc.

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EyeDCyou

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@jhaigo: But in TWS, Cap could've contacted Iron Man or someone else. And even though Thor wanted to do it himself, the world still almost ended. When the world is about to end, you ignore Thor's pride, and go help.

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#5  Edited By EyeDCyou

Only the arguments for iron man 3 and cap winter soldier make sense. What do you mean the big boys tho? Cap has reflexes superior to anyone in the MCU except hulk. Cap is arguably the "biggest boy" on the team. He can handle ironman, thor, hulk, etc.

Cap can not handle any of those guys haha. Are you kidding me? And by big boys, I mean Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk.

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kfabz-23

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Ironman 3 - the president was kidnapped, so Cap realistically would get the call to help.

Thor TDW - Ironman stopped being Ironman and what is Cap, Hawkeye & Widow really gonna do.

Cap 2 - the kooky quartet lite did a good job.

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MakkyD

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@eyedcyou: Had Tony not destroyed his suits by the Winter Soldier?

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EyeDCyou

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@kfabz-23: Well what were Cap, Hawkeye, & Widow really gonna do in Avengers? They were lucky they were fighting fodder. And yeah, they did fine in Cap 2, but after Fury was killed, SHIELD was taken over, and that bunker that Cap was in was blown up, you'd think he might talk to the other guys.

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SaintWildcard

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I try not to put too much thought into it. I doubt that DC won't suffer from the same sort of problem.

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AwesomePerson

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The only time SHIELD should have gotten involved was Iron Man 3...

Thor wanted to settle this himself or soemthing...

Tony stopped being Iron Man by the time a Winter Soldier came out. Hawkeye, was probably with his family...

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@maccyd said:

@eyedcyou: Had Tony not destroyed his suits by the Winter Soldier?

He destroyed them after IM3, but he had more suits by the beginning of AoU, without explanation. I think you could assume that he built more after IM3.

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EyeDCyou

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The only time SHIELD should have gotten involved was Iron Man 3...

Thor wanted to settle this himself or soemthing...

Tony stopped being Iron Man by the time a Winter Soldier came out. Hawkeye, was probably with his family...

Again, the WORLD almost ENDED. SHIELD would've said f*ck you Thor, I'm sending in the Avengers.

And I just said the same thing to someone else about TWS. Tony destroyed his suits at the end of IM3, but he had suits again by the beginning of AoU, without an explanation. I think you could assume that he built more suits during that time. And yes, Hawkeye was probably with his family, but SHIELD and his boss were completely taken over. He should've gone to help.

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@eyedcyou said:
@awesomeperson said:

The only time SHIELD should have gotten involved was Iron Man 3...

Thor wanted to settle this himself or soemthing...

Tony stopped being Iron Man by the time a Winter Soldier came out. Hawkeye, was probably with his family...

Again, the WORLD almost ENDED. SHIELD would've said f*ck you Thor, I'm sending in the Avengers.

And I just said the same thing to someone else about TWS. Tony destroyed his suits at the end of IM3, but he had suits again by the beginning of AoU, without an explanation. I think you could assume that he built more suits during that time. And yes, Hawkeye was probably with his family, but SHIELD and his boss were completely taken over. He should've gone to help.

Thor 2 was in London, the Avengers mightn't have gotten there in time, considering most of them were in different parts of the USA.

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kfabz-23

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@eyedcyou: Dark elves were more dangerous with Malekith in the battlefield.

Ironman stopped being Ironman, Bruce doesn't want to turn green, Hawkeye is with the family and if Thor comes te movie ends too quickly.

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GraniteSoldier

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You could make the same argument about half of superhero comics as well.

Just saying.

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EyeDCyou

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@kfabz-23 said:

@eyedcyou: Dark elves were more dangerous with Malekith in the battlefield.

Ironman stopped being Ironman, Bruce doesn't want to turn green, Hawkeye is with the family and if Thor comes te movie ends too quickly.

Plot convenience isn't a good explanation for a plot hole.

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Well, the same reason why Superheroes can continuosly face world threatening threats in their solo titles without every single superhero team on the planet getting involved. Heck, Batman teamed up with his villains instead of calling the Justice League.

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EyeDCyou

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You could make the same argument about half of superhero comics as well.

Just saying.

Well, the same reason why Superheroes can continuosly face world threatening threats in their solo titles without every single superhero team on the planet getting involved. Heck, Batman teamed up with his villains instead of calling the Justice League.

I know, but at least in comics the other heroes have running titles that explain what they're doing at that point in time, which is usually something important as well.

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EyeDCyou

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@kfabz-23 said:

@eyedcyou: elaborate

The logical thing, in these scenarios, would be for the Avengers (or at least some of them) to assist. But the explanations of 'Hawkeye was with his family', 'Iron Man quit', and 'Hulk doesn't want to get angry', are just pieces of plot convenience to explain the questions that I arose in the OP. Why weren't those things for each character still in effect for Age of Ultron? Plot convenience. The plot holes, are that the Avengers should've shown up, but the convenience is these weak explanations of why they couldn't have shown up.

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Stahlflamme

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#21  Edited By Stahlflamme

@eyedcyou: Not really few of the comics plotlines are actually happening at the exact same time, if you ignore the tie-ins to events. Take for example the current Hulk run, Doc Green and Rulk were basically causing world wide earthquakes with their battle, while steve rogers was fully aware of their location and nobody showed up to stop them, but later the Avengers are all assembled when Doc Green meets with She-Hulk.

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@eyedcyou: The chronology of the films are as open as the comics though.

Secret Wars has begun, all the Marvel multiverse doesn't currently exist...yet certain titles still continue on.

For all we know, Cap could have been dealing with the SHIELD collapse IMMEDIATELY following Tony destroying all his suits. There's no defined timeline or time-lapse.

It's no different than the comics: suspension of disbelief. To make the claim about the movies (and this isn't directed at you but at what cinemasins is saying) is simply nitpicking. We'll see the same thing happen when the DCCU gets off the ground more.

I say just enjoy the ride, be it team or individual movies haha. It's comics, if you think about it too much it all falls apart anyway.

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@eyedcyou: Yeah in the end this just comes down to the Avengers being idiots. After Avengers Assemble there was no real way to explain them all not calling eachother whenever.Suspension of disbelief I guess.

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EyeDCyou

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@eyedcyou: Not really few of the comics plotlines are actually happening at the exact same time, if you ignore the tie-ins to events. Take for example the current Hulk run, Doc Green and Rulk were basically causing world wide earthquakes with their battle, while steve rogers was fully aware of their location and nobody showed up to stop them, but later the Avengers are all assembled when Doc Green meets with She-Hulk.

Well I'm just here to discuss the movie issues haha. Those types of issues in comics have been around forever.

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@eyedcyou: The Avengers became an official team once Shield was gone and it was out there. After that it became their duty to protect the people of the world.

Which meant Hawkeye having to leave his family, Iron Legion and Ironman returning, Thor was already on earth bla bla bla. Think of all the times we actually see Hulk in AOU

First time was most likely because Banner let the Hulk out. 2nd time Wanda releases Hulk, 3rd time Black Widow released him.

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EyeDCyou

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@granitesoldier: I know it's being nitpicky, and I know cinemasins is a joke, but I'm surprised that almost everyone is arguing against me.

Suspension of disbelief is really tricky, because it works both ways. Another thing that could counter that point is that Tony STILL had suits by the time AoU started, so it's possible that IM3, CATWS, and TDW all happened around the same time, but if the argument that Tony still didn't have his suits is to be believed, then we have to assume that AoU happened a really long time after all three of those movies.

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@kfabz-23 said:

@eyedcyou: The Avengers became an official team once Shield was gone and it was out there. After that it became their duty to protect the people of the world.

Which meant Hawkeye having to leave his family, Iron Legion and Ironman returning, Thor was already on earth bla bla bla. Think of all the times we actually see Hulk in AOU

First time was most likely because Banner let the Hulk out. 2nd time Wanda releases Hulk, 3rd time Black Widow released him.

I'm pretty sure the Avengers were an official team in the first film, especially afterwards, and they saved the world.

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@eyedcyou said:
@kfabz-23 said:

@eyedcyou: The Avengers became an official team once Shield was gone and it was out there. After that it became their duty to protect the people of the world.

Which meant Hawkeye having to leave his family, Iron Legion and Ironman returning, Thor was already on earth bla bla bla. Think of all the times we actually see Hulk in AOU

First time was most likely because Banner let the Hulk out. 2nd time Wanda releases Hulk, 3rd time Black Widow released him.

I'm pretty sure the Avengers were an official team in the first film, especially afterwards, and they saved the world.

No, they pretty much all went their own ways, with Thor even leaving earth. Fury said they would probably come back together if there was again a threat that made it necessary, but they were not operating as a team like we see them in Age of Ultron.

I don't really see the arguments to justify why no other Avengers show up. They don't show up because its a movie for a specific character to shine. The threats are so big they should get involved, because the MCU had to raise the stakes compared to previous solo movies after Avengers.

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EyeDCyou

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@stahlflamme: I'm not going to argue anymore, because I didn't create this thread with the intent to argue, but your last comment is just plot convenience. I know the movies are meant for the solo characters, but they didn't have to raise the threat level in each movie. All of phase 1 had tame threat levels, and those movies were great.

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@eyedcyou: they teamed up, but they weren't really official. They even made it clear in AOU featurettes that they are a proper team in AV2. In AV the did their thing and disappeared, in AV2 they've been fighting against Hydra, have a tower etc.

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@eyedcyou: I'm not trying to argue against you, and I watch cinemasins (as well as Honest Trailers which if you haven't checked out I recommend) I'm just saying that their line of thought doesn't really mesh with comics in general.

As for Tony's suits, AoU could only be a month or a few later. We saw him built a bulletproof, flying war machine out of spare parts...in a cave...under surveillance. And that was the first one. You think it takes him that long to build something he already has blueprints to and has robotic helpers? Not to mention he also upgraded everyone's gear, in his own words, short of Thor and Hulk. So yeah I don't find it that impossible for Tony to have done that much in a short amount of time.

Hell, in the comics it would've been accomplished in a weekend in his own series, while simultaneously in the Avengers title he could be fighting Thanos...and palling around with the GotG in their title. The continuity in comics really makes no sense if you think about it to hard.

Like comics, the movies have no defined time lapse. It's how these things work lol.

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It's CinemaSins, all they do is nitpick.

HonestTrailers > CinemaSins

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lettsplay10

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#33  Edited By lettsplay10

Yeah

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AwesomePerson

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@eyedcyou: To be honest, these are SOLO films... Yes logic does not apply there but if the Avengers showed up then the film becomes The Avenegers...

Plus seperate missions, seperate fights, separate lives...

Plus if Tony wanted to help, Cap probably would have said, it's not your fight...

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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I don't remember IM3 clearly but unless the president being kidnapped was made public and he was gone for a long time, (i don't remember), there's no way cap could have come.

No one could have really helped Thor in TDW.

Someone should have helped in TWS but I'm not sure it was public knowledge what was going to happen. I know BW leaked shields files but did she teop everyone of the plan to kill millions?

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Yeah, but......... Captain America: Civil War!

I think that compensates. Doesn't it?

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#37  Edited By Avenging-X-Bolt

Wasn't Hydra keeping an eye out Cap in TWS? I don't think he could have found or called Tony or Bruce without Shield/hydra noticing. Thor doesn't seem like the type to be easy to contact.

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username12345

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I like The Marvel movies, mostly because they are revolutionary. But that's some good points.

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Iron Man 3 is the only one that really makes no sense yeah shield would have gotten involved

Thor 2 took place in London Avengers are in USA the final battle was supposedly a little over 8 mins.

Cap 2 he was being monitored by Hydra and had no way of getting to or contacting tony without giving away his position

Hawkeye could easily have been doing missions for shield maybe of equal importance or spending time with his family. He wouldn't have known the severity and even if he did he'd probably need someone to pick him up in a jet to get there in time.

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It would've been cool if in The Winter Soldier, Captain America and Black Widow had to fight the rest of the Avengers!