#1 Edited by JohnnyGat (1562 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by Delphic (1467 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

First of all let me point out that I have my views on the event but am willing to acknowledge if I'm wrong with my views and would greatly appreciate it if we can have a discussion in a non-confrontational way as most "discussions" on the internet end up in, unfortunately.

Okay so regarding the plot when I think about it I find myself agreeing with both points of views from Cap and Cyclops and completely dislike Logan's views.

I think Cap means well, but he's letting idealism get in the way. It's causing him to loose sight of the big picture, and keeping him from having to make the hard decisions. Cyclops is outright insane. He's turned the mutants into a military force and a good many of them are just kids. During the prologue, his consistent pushing on Hope really put me off the wrong way. He has this illogical belief that if the Phoenix can be controlled, mutant kind will be saved and enter into the next cycle of evolution. In the past all the Phoenix has done is destroy and take life. It can't be controlled, and you think Cyclops would realize that after what happened to Jean.

Logan on the other hand realizes what happened when he was last involved with the Phoenix. He remembers what it did to Jean and others he cared about. I honestly believe he does not want to kill Hope, but he will if he has too. He's not afraid to make the tough decision. Logan was the Avengers best chance at finding Hope, and possibly her best chance of being saved from the Phoenix, but because Cap was afraid of what Logan might do, he dropped him in the middle of Siberia.

#3 Edited by JohnnyGat (1562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delphic said:

@JohnnyGat said:

First of all let me point out that I have my views on the event but am willing to acknowledge if I'm wrong with my views and would greatly appreciate it if we can have a discussion in a non-confrontational way as most "discussions" on the internet end up in, unfortunately.

Okay so regarding the plot when I think about it I find myself agreeing with both points of views from Cap and Cyclops and completely dislike Logan's views.

I think Cap means well, but he's letting idealism get in the way. It's causing him to loose sight of the big picture, and keeping him from having to make the hard decisions. Cyclops is outright insane. He's turned the mutants into a military force and a good many of them are just kids. During the prologue, his consistent pushing on Hope really put me off the wrong way. He has this illogical belief that if the Phoenix can be controlled, mutant kind will be saved and enter into the next cycle of evolution. In the past all the Phoenix has done is destroy and take life. It can't be controlled, and you think Cyclops would realize that after what happened to Jean.

Logan on the other hand realizes what happened when he was last involved with the Phoenix. He remembers what it did to Jean and others he cared about. I honestly believe he does not want to kill Hope, but he will if he has too. He's not afraid to make the tough decision. Logan was the Avengers best chance at finding Hope, and possibly her best chance of being saved from the Phoenix, but because Cap was afraid of what Logan might do, he dropped him in the middle of Siberia.

Rachel was able to control it wasn't she. As far as I can see Cyclops acknowledges that, hence his main reason is to train Hope to control it. Logan I don't believe is doing this for the best of mutant kind he's doing this to prove to Scott that he's wrong and there is no such thing as a Messiah. I mean when the Avengers went to utopia and Logan saw Hope he directly went in for the kill. Now either he's in the belief that killing Hope would magically get rid of the PF than I admit I was wrong in believing he had an agenda but then again in his school alone there are two people who've already been affected by the Phoenix Force, one Rachel was able handle it and Quentin Quire has been shown in alternate timelines to have been a host to the Phoenix Force, why hasn't Logan put them on his watch if need to kill.

The end result is just that this entire fight is just a case of hurt pride from both A and X although I am more sympathetic of the hurt pride on the X side since they've been oppressed constantly I just can't see why they aren't working together. I think Cap made the wrong call going to Utopia unannounced and demand turning Hope over instead of talking to Cyclops and looking for a mutual way to handle things. That little mistake of not trusting Cyke was basically a clear indicator to Cyke that if A does not trust them then he couldn't trust them with Hope. I mean Scott's defense to the Phoenix only being destructive is that it never truly destroys the Earth on the many instances it has appeared.

All of this is theory on Scott's part and on the Avengers part and on Logan's part. Yet the one that has made the most sense is the one not being exploited and that Hope is to be trained by both Avengers and Xmen in a place where the Avengers can monitor the situation.

#4 Posted by Delphic (1467 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

@Delphic said:

@JohnnyGat said:

First of all let me point out that I have my views on the event but am willing to acknowledge if I'm wrong with my views and would greatly appreciate it if we can have a discussion in a non-confrontational way as most "discussions" on the internet end up in, unfortunately.

Okay so regarding the plot when I think about it I find myself agreeing with both points of views from Cap and Cyclops and completely dislike Logan's views.

I think Cap means well, but he's letting idealism get in the way. It's causing him to loose sight of the big picture, and keeping him from having to make the hard decisions. Cyclops is outright insane. He's turned the mutants into a military force and a good many of them are just kids. During the prologue, his consistent pushing on Hope really put me off the wrong way. He has this illogical belief that if the Phoenix can be controlled, mutant kind will be saved and enter into the next cycle of evolution. In the past all the Phoenix has done is destroy and take life. It can't be controlled, and you think Cyclops would realize that after what happened to Jean.

Logan on the other hand realizes what happened when he was last involved with the Phoenix. He remembers what it did to Jean and others he cared about. I honestly believe he does not want to kill Hope, but he will if he has too. He's not afraid to make the tough decision. Logan was the Avengers best chance at finding Hope, and possibly her best chance of being saved from the Phoenix, but because Cap was afraid of what Logan might do, he dropped him in the middle of Siberia.

Rachel was able to control it wasn't she. As far as I can see Cyclops acknowledges that, hence his main reason is to train Hope to control it. Logan I don't believe is doing this for the best of mutant kind he's doing this to prove to Scott that he's wrong and there is no such thing as a Messiah. I mean when the Avengers went to utopia and Logan saw Hope he directly went in for the kill. Now either he's in the belief that killing Hope would magically get rid of the PF than I admit I was wrong in believing he had an agenda but then again in his school alone there are two people who've already been affected by the Phoenix Force, one Rachel was able handle it and Quentin Quire has been shown in alternate timelines to have been a host to the Phoenix Force, why hasn't Logan put them on his watch if need to kill.

The end result is just that this entire fight is just a case of hurt pride from both A and X although I am more sympathetic of the hurt pride on the X side since they've been oppressed constantly I just can't see why they aren't working together. I think Cap made the wrong call going to Utopia unannounced and demand turning Hope over instead of talking to Cyclops and looking for a mutual way to handle things. That little mistake of not trusting Cyke was basically a clear indicator to Cyke that if A does not trust them then he couldn't trust them with Hope. I mean Scott's defense to the Phoenix only being destructive is that it never truly destroys the Earth on the many instances it has appeared.

All of this is theory on Scott's part and on the Avengers part and on Logan's part. Yet the one that has made the most sense is the one not being exploited and that Hope is to be trained by both Avengers and Xmen in a place where the Avengers can monitor the situation.

To an extent. Rachel was a host and able to tap into it's power, but she wasn't able to control the entity itself. I honestly don't think anyone can completely control the Phoenix Force, but only work together with it. The potential that Hope could transform into another Dark Phoenix is very great though. I think everyone wants to avoid that, but they don't agree on how to go about it: Scott trains, Cap locks away, and Logan kills. In saying that it would seem like Scott has the best mentality, but, like you said, Scott sees the Phoenix Force as a messiah to save all mutant kind. The Phoenix has proven itself time and again to be a destructive force. What does Scott believe that the Phoenix will do? Just how will the thing that took away the love of his life "save" mutant kind? What will it save them from?

Now as far as Logan goes you make a very good point, about him trying to prove Scott wrong. The two of them have never seen eye to eye, and I do believe part of this is Logan trying to stick it to Scott. As far as his reason for not locking up Rachel or Quentin Quire it is possible because they have not shown any current signs of influence by Phoenix. I'm not sure how he was aware that Hope was showing signs though. Another reason he has not locked them up or put them on his kill list is because he has no intention of doing so unless he has too. As seen in the most recent issue of A vs X Logan is getting a bit pushy himself, especially as I saw of how he demanded of Rachel to try harder to find Hope. I'm not saying by any means that Logan is without flaws, but I think he does realize the potential danger of the Phoenix better than anyone.

#5 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4523 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat: 100% agreed!

#6 Posted by rpgr (331 posts) - - Show Bio

Delphic Said:

As far as his reason for not locking up Rachel or Quentin Quire it is possible because they have not shown any current signs of influence by Phoenix. I'm not sure how he was aware that Hope was showing signs though.

Actually, gonna correct you on that, they have shown influence from the PF. All the usual peeps lighted up.

In any case, the Iron Fist connection is going to prove the X-men are right in their approach and he is obviously going to defect to the X-side of seeing things.