#1 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Please stop trying to justify the decisions and actions Cyclops, Cap, etc. in some kind of misguided attempt to protect a favorite character. It will be much easier on your psyche to just accept the writers hate all of you and wants to see you lose you minds online by making your favorites look like mongoloids. the Architects all sit around a computer and drink heavily while reading out loud the cries of fanboys/girls as they try to redeem the honor of their favs.

The Lowdown

The premise had promise (that was promptly wasted)

The execution was deeply flawed to the point of hilarity

Nearly everyone was written out of character to fit the storyline because they were to lazy to explain it all

The end results were not because of any grand master plan of any of the participants no matter how much you want to believe it

Everyone was wrong or just part of the back ground

#2 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

great post

I never liked cyclops but after the event. I kinda became a fan of him

and it made me hate Captain America even more.

#3 Posted by TheCheeseStabber (8102 posts) - - Show Bio

Omg Thnk you so true

#4 Posted by Dark_Magician (205 posts) - - Show Bio

Love this post

#5 Posted by whydama (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

I am still going with," Thor was impersonated by a Skrull"

#6 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect said:

Please stop trying to justify the decisions and actions Cyclops, Cap, etc. in some kind of misguided attempt to protect a favorite character. It will be much easier on your psyche to just accept the writers hate all of you and wants to see you lose you minds online by making your favorites look like mongoloids. the Architects all sit around a computer and drink heavily while reading out loud the cries of fanboys/girls as they try to redeem the honor of their favs.

The Lowdown

The premise had promise (that was promptly wasted)

The execution was deeply flawed to the point of hilarity

Nearly everyone was written out of character to fit the storyline because they were to lazy to explain it all

The end results were not because of any grand master plan of any of the participants no matter how much you want to believe it

Everyone was wrong or just part of the back ground

/agree

#7 Posted by Mutant God (3022 posts) - - Show Bio

no the Fantastic Four was right for staying out of the event

#8 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5893 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with all this!!

Online
#9 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

another new guy explains it all for us dumbs people. thank you. pfff color me unimpressed and annoyed.

#10 Posted by daviegourevitch (56 posts) - - Show Bio

To me it seems as though they did it in a desperate attempt to boost sales.

#11 Posted by SoA (4836 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect: i didnt like AvX when it was previewed and everyone was saying how good it will be. to me it was going to be meh.

i stopped (and wisely so) after the debut of the phoenix 5. everything that followed assured me i wasnt missing out on anything good. great post .

#12 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

All these things sound correct, especially the part about Thor being a skrull. Personally I think the writers are skrulls as well!

#13 Posted by SC (13110 posts) - - Show Bio

I could agree if you changed AVX Reality to Struggling Comics Industry Reality Check - No One Is Really Wrong Or Right It Depends.  
 
For lots of different fans, Captain America is in character by virtue of wearing red white and blue and not eating the heads off of babies. AVX isn't the first example of Marvel and writers putting together a story that premise is designed to hook in more readers as a priority than provide a showcase of artistic and literary excellence to affirm why fans of characters should love those characters, or fans of the medium should love that medium, or fans of a team should love that team. Those two concepts aren't mutually exclusive so you could probably still sincerely say that some components of Marvel and or its writers still try for the later. The problem for say a person like me is when the former cuts into the later. For me the cuts have always been there, but started to get deeper around House of M (as far as events, since Avengers Disassembled featured several open wounds) that as well as some fans out of characterization character are some other fans favorite version of that character. 

Moderator
#14 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

@theTimeStreamer said:

another new guy explains it all for us dumbs people. thank you. pfff color me unimpressed and annoyed.

I have actually been on here for 2 years, this is an alt

Color me unimpressed that you bothered to post and this is all you had to offer

#15 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

I could agree if you changed AVX Reality to Struggling Comics Industry Reality Check - No One Is Really Wrong Or Right It Depends. For lots of different fans, Captain America is in character by virtue of wearing red white and blue and not eating the heads off of babies. AVX isn't the first example of Marvel and writers putting together a story that premise is designed to hook in more readers as a priority than provide a showcase of artistic and literary excellence to affirm why fans of characters should love those characters, or fans of the medium should love that medium, or fans of a team should love that team. Those two concepts aren't mutually exclusive so you could probably still sincerely say that some components of Marvel and or its writers still try for the later. The problem for say a person like me is when the former cuts into the later. For me the cuts have always been there, but started to get deeper around House of M (as far as events, since Avengers Disassembled featured several open wounds) that as well as some fans out of characterization character are some other fans favorite version of that character.

I know where your going and tend to agree. Marvel is more interested in creating buzz by making their characters and storylines controversial as to get people talking about it (good, bad, or anywhere in between). All part of the desperate efforts to reel in the "new readers" they seem to covet so much, even at the cost of potentially alienating their longtime readers.

Characters throughout comics history have been shown to make dubious choices and decision, but for the most part the writers set the circumstances to justify it to a point to make it somewhat defendable. In AvX, the writers did nowhere near the amount of work to show why such excessive actions were necessary, or why obvious and easier methods were not tried first.

Writers always want to show their take on the characters they write, but the more you want to alter them from the status quo, the more time and effort they need to put into selling the changes to the readers. It's the lack of detail as to why these changes were made that leaves fans wondering and making these events come out so disappointing.

#16 Posted by SC (13110 posts) - - Show Bio
@Brazen_Intellect said:

I know where your going and tend to agree. Marvel is more interested in creating buzz by making their characters and storylines controversial as to get people talking about it (good, bad, or anywhere in between). All part of the desperate efforts to reel in the "new readers" they seem to covet so much, even at the cost of potentially alienating their longtime readers.

Characters throughout comics history have been shown to make dubious choices and decision, but for the most part the writers set the circumstances to justify it to a point to make it somewhat defendable. In AvX, the writers did nowhere near the amount of work to show why such excessive actions were necessary, or why obvious and easier methods were not tried first.

Writers always want to show their take on the characters they write, but the more you want to alter them from the status quo, the more time and effort they need to put into selling the changes to the readers. It's the lack of detail as to why these changes were made that leaves fans wondering and making these events come out so disappointing.

They are abusing the fact that they know that many types of fans are loyal to the fictional characters they own and use and they capitalize on that fact by as you say putting new fans first even at the cost of alienating older readers. Its a type of bizarre risk that has always existed in comics, because it is true, no matter what Marvel does, there will be fans who will just naturally drop off and there will be new fans jumping in. So when fans take their parting shots and criticisms? It could be easy for Marvel just to say that fans leave no matter what. Though true its dubious approach to defend against all criticism that way.  
 
For me when Marvel Editorial decided that the X-Men franchise worked best in the same conditions that existed when Stan Lee wrote the book ignoring the success the franchise had under Chris Claremont? So that was the justification for M-Day? People supposedly enjoyed the X-Men more... when it was all about Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast and Angel living in a world with a handful of other mutants (Blob. Toad and Magneto) right? Uh... yeah... thats just... Okay no sarcasm this time, thats just a bad approach to the X-Men title/franchise. I can see why people have conspiracy theories about Marvel consciously attempting to prioritize Marvel to be an Avengers first business by virtue of having to sell off X-Men movie rights to Fox instead of naturally trying to have all its franchises succeed naturally as well as fostering them all equally to succeed. So for me breaking down the Avengers to rebuild them with more poplar characters was the first time I personally felt unnecessarily pulled away from the story (well that and Planet X with Morrison and his Magneto dance) but then ignoring that Scarlet Witch already came to terms with losing her children just so she could snap and use newly inherited plot powers to eliminate all the mutant characters that weren't X-Men in this reality and supposed all alternate realities, all infinity of them even though the whole point of having alternate realities is to have realities where somethings are different and somethings are the same **gasp** **breaths in** Yeah cause that doesn't paint the Avenger or X-Men characters as total failures for not addressing the whole person they knew losing children because they were actually fragments of the devil. I mean the thing with comics that makes it a subjective medium is that people can assume so much with the characters. I mean hey yeah, Scarlet Witch the character had this bad thing that happened to her, but she is surrounded by characters who claim they aren't just heroes but superheroes, I am sure some of them were there as emotional support.  
 
I am sure the destruction of Genosha was on the Avengers radar because I know when I read X-Men its to see the X-Men and not Avengers but surely off panel if Captain America is a decent enough guy he used a phone to call Xavier and Cyclops and ask if they need help with anything and insist on helping out but hey. Then we couldn't have that as a plot point 10 years later when we need both Captain America and Cyclops characters to bicker like politicians.  
 
For some reason I think Marvel are taking their inspiration from tabloid magazines and reality TV and trying to give us bigger, better, more shocking moments, instead of going the route that if you treat your fan base intelligently, you will get more intelligent fans and intelligent fans are loyal fans when your product is good. True, some intelligent fans will buy a inferior product because out of loyalty and an inferior product that sounds good might pick up a lot of casual fans but casual fans hardly stick around, especially with niche products and with so many alternatives to comics these days increasing the quality instead of the markability is really the best way to stop comics decline. (and you neatly outline how they can increase the quality with your last two paragraphs)    
Moderator
#17 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

Too F ing true.

#18 Posted by SHAZAM117 (3013 posts) - - Show Bio

Looking back, it seems like AvX was MARVEL's "Flashpoint" event and "MARVEL NOW" will be the New New52 event for MARVEL, reseting things....So I have no doubts the event was a response to what DC is doing and to boost sales. For me, the event has it's moments but all in all it was too long and ended very poorly. Marvel REALLY needs to cut down on these major events and just focues on providing great stories for their solo books, but as long as these super-mega events keep selling, they'll just keep on comin'. Personally I'm done with "universe changing/whose side you on" stories from MARVEL for a while

#19 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

They are abusing the fact that they know that many types of fans are loyal to the fictional characters they own and use and they capitalize on that fact by as you say putting new fans first even at the cost of alienating older readers. Its a type of bizarre risk that has always existed in comics, because it is true, no matter what Marvel does, there will be fans who will just naturally drop off and there will be new fans jumping in. So when fans take their parting shots and criticisms? It could be easy for Marvel just to say that fans leave no matter what. Though true its dubious approach to defend against all criticism that way. For me when Marvel Editorial decided that the X-Men franchise worked best in the same conditions that existed when Stan Lee wrote the book ignoring the success the franchise had under Chris Claremont? So that was the justification for M-Day? People supposedly enjoyed the X-Men more... when it was all about Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast and Angel living in a world with a handful of other mutants (Blob. Toad and Magneto) right? Uh... yeah... thats just... Okay no sarcasm this time, thats just a bad approach to the X-Men title/franchise. I can see why people have conspiracy theories about Marvel consciously attempting to prioritize Marvel to be an Avengers first business by virtue of having to sell off X-Men movie rights to Fox instead of naturally trying to have all its franchises succeed naturally as well as fostering them all equally to succeed. So for me breaking down the Avengers to rebuild them with more poplar characters was the first time I personally felt unnecessarily pulled away from the story (well that and Planet X with Morrison and his Magneto dance) but then ignoring that Scarlet Witch already came to terms with losing her children just so she could snap and use newly inherited plot powers to eliminate all the mutant characters that weren't X-Men in this reality and supposed all alternate realities, all infinity of them even though the whole point of having alternate realities is to have realities where somethings are different and somethings are the same **gasp** **breaths in** Yeah cause that doesn't paint the Avenger or X-Men characters as total failures for not addressing the whole person they knew losing children because they were actually fragments of the devil. I mean the thing with comics that makes it a subjective medium is that people can assume so much with the characters. I mean hey yeah, Scarlet Witch the character had this bad thing that happened to her, but she is surrounded by characters who claim they aren't just heroes but superheroes, I am sure some of them were there as emotional support. I am sure the destruction of Genosha was on the Avengers radar because I know when I read X-Men its to see the X-Men and not Avengers but surely off panel if Captain America is a decent enough guy he used a phone to call Xavier and Cyclops and ask if they need help with anything and insist on helping out but hey. Then we couldn't have that as a plot point 10 years later when we need both Captain America and Cyclops characters to bicker like politicians. For some reason I think Marvel are taking their inspiration from tabloid magazines and reality TV and trying to give us bigger, better, more shocking moments, instead of going the route that if you treat your fan base intelligently, you will get more intelligent fans and intelligent fans are loyal fans when your product is good. True, some intelligent fans will buy a inferior product because out of loyalty and an inferior product that sounds good might pick up a lot of casual fans but casual fans hardly stick around, especially with niche products and with so many alternatives to comics these days increasing the quality instead of the markability is really the best way to stop comics decline. (and you neatly outline how they can increase the quality with your last two paragraphs)

I really hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist too, but it is pretty convenient that once Marvel sold the rights to the X-Men movies to Fox and they saw the potential of doing movies themselves (Marvel Studios) that the Avengers became the main franchise to receive all the top talent and press instead of the X-Men? I am not blind and know very well that the film side of the business now has tremendous influence on the comic side (now that it generates billions to their millions) but one would hope it is not an executive mandate to give preference to characters and titles where the rights have not been farmed out to other studios. Do not feel you are crazy, I have thought the same thing myself more than once.

I think Marvel is taking cues not from tabloids and magazines, but from Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis, widescreen comics where everything is always bigger and edgier. Both are very talented and successful writers, but their best work is on creator owned projects where they have their own sandbox universe to blow up at will and not affect anyone else's work. This style does not work very well in shared universes as the vast and constant change creates ripple effects of chaos that are hard to put back together coherently.

There is a sinking feeling in my belly that the events will continue to overshadow the original books as they are prime candidates to be made into animated, or less likely live action films (as WB has done so well). I remember years ago when the X-books dominated the Top 10 and even the worst selling title still made the top 30, but look at today where the top book can barely crack the TOP 20. Yes Marvel can point at the sales improvement of Avengers related titles (and the $1.4 billion take on the movie) but are they really going to tell me they had to tank the premier franchise in all of comics (X-Men) to do it?

I would really like to hear an honest conversation about the comics side from Quesada and/or Alonso and not just the BS press releases they use to pimp product. Even they cannot really still believe the books are not suffering, and if they do then they need to use that Disney health plan to get some psych therapy stat.

#20 Posted by RedOwl_1 (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

@SHAZAM117 said:

Looking back, it seems like AvX was MARVEL's "Flashpoint" event and "MARVEL NOW" will be the New New52 event for MARVEL, reseting things....So I have no doubts the event was a response to what DC is doing and to boost sales. For me, the event has it's moments but all in all it was too long and ended very poorly. Marvel REALLY needs to cut down on these major events and just focues on providing great stories for their solo books, but as long as these super-mega events keep selling, they'll just keep on comin'. Personally I'm done with "universe changing/whose side you on" stories from MARVEL for a while
  1. So true
  2. Hell yeah, It's curious how little DC crossovers are better than HUGE EVENTS of Marvel, maybe because I enjoy more (I enjoyed more Night of Owls than this AvX thing)
  3. It's becoming annoying, I'm sure Trinity War will be one of those D:
#21 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5893 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
I could agree if you changed AVX Reality to Struggling Comics Industry Reality Check - No One Is Really Wrong Or Right It Depends.   For lots of different fans, Captain America is in character by virtue of wearing red white and blue and not eating the heads off of babies. AVX isn't the first example of Marvel and writers putting together a story that premise is designed to hook in more readers as a priority than provide a showcase of artistic and literary excellence to affirm why fans of characters should love those characters, or fans of the medium should love that medium, or fans of a team should love that team. Those two concepts aren't mutually exclusive so you could probably still sincerely say that some components of Marvel and or its writers still try for the later. The problem for say a person like me is when the former cuts into the later. For me the cuts have always been there, but started to get deeper around House of M (as far as events, since Avengers Disassembled featured several open wounds) that as well as some fans out of characterization character are some other fans favorite version of that character. 
I agree with all of this!! I think that Marvel has lost sight of what made the stories so important in the first place.  One of the reasons why Chris Claremont's earlier run on X-Men was so memorable to many fans was the fact that he developed the characters into whatever huge event occurs.  It seems like nowadays, the stories are much shorter and there is less focus on the character development.
Online
#22 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

I Agree and this applies to more than Marvel 616 Verse and Sales.

Now that Marvel are trying rebuild the Ultimate Comics after destroyin Ultimate F4, to a point Ultimates, and Ultimate X-Men thanks to Ultimantum (Loeb you hack writer). Then they kill Ultimate Spiderman for no good reason to add in a Black Character to pick up the role and for what reason? What was wrong with having a younger Peter that new readers can follow? It seem funny the Ultimate Comics were some of the best Comics ever and then Marvel tried to ruin the franchise all together with Death of Spider Man and Ultimatum.

I simply dont get Marvel anymore either.