Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio
I know they are for both but as a parent I wonder about who individual characters are geared for.  I know that most things have ratings but it is difficult to be vigilant in this when my kids ask for certain comic or movies Take Batman for one example of many.  Batman has action figures geared for very little kids and they have very violent comics and movie geared for adults.  Both would be fine except for it is the same character.   In other words you can't trust the brand.  A parent can;t buy something with Batman in it and know that it's safe without examining it.  Look at the last Batman Movie Dark Knight.  The movie was not made for kids and yet kids products were made from the movie.  It is insidious and DC and Batman are not the only ones who do this.  To be clear I'm not for censorship and I'm perfectly happy and even like comics geared for adults. i just wish the charters were a little more consistent.  Choose a side of the road and stay there.  I don't feel it is any different than the cigarette companies gearing their adult product for kids.  Well this will make me as popular as a three dollar bill so let me have it.
#1 Posted by danhimself (21225 posts) - - Show Bio

the Marvel Adventure line is some really good quality writing and it's geared for kids

#2 Posted by Edamame (29211 posts) - - Show Bio


#3 Posted by defaultdefaultdefault (16426 posts) - - Show Bio
@Edamame said:
" Subjective. "
pretty much this, in more ways than one.
#4 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio

This is more a general discussion, doesn't really belong in the Batman forum.

#5 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

Subjective how?  Are you saying that all comics and the movies based on them are acceptable to some parents while others are not?  I understand that there are degrees to what is considered violent or appropriate but there are defiantly two extremes here.  The only problem is when the same character is in both extremes.  I know there are great books and movies geared for children and that is great, but the same characters are in much more violent books and movies.  Should they make Freddy Kruger dolls for five year olds?  I know that is not likely but isn't that what you are saying by "subjective"?

#6 Edited by Man of Lengend (1019 posts) - - Show Bio

honestly  im 21 and when i was younger a learned about the characters throught the cartoon series. i would start there.

then when i wanted more i went to the comic store and wanted all the comics of BATMAN  and realized things were way way darker then i previously thought.


so i guess i would go with older comics maybe like old Justice leauge , old Batman, old superman, old spiderman ? thats what my parent did ..... and it helped me learn why the character like Bats became so dark later on in the comic. I understood it way better and did not currupt me on any level to my knoledge. haha


honestly i would stay away from new comics of characters like wolverine, deadpool, even Cap America has become more for adults  
anyway thats my best idea for you


#7 Edited by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio
@Man of Lengend:   Thank you that is my point.  My kids love Batman and I always liked him as well but the Batman: Brave and Bold character is not the same as Batman: Dark Knight.  I'll give you another example Marvel makes a child-like version of the Punisher.  The Punisher!  You can buy a marvel Guess Who game geared for little kids with the Punisher as one of the character.  Of course kids want to know all about him.  Who he is what  he does and so on.  
Nobody is also right this should probably be moved.  I'm kind of new to this blog thing.  I did not mean to imply batman is the only character with this problem.
#8 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the comic, honestly. Stuff like Watchmen is obviously not for kids. The majority of events (Blackest Night, Siege) aren't either. Ongoing titles can be, but it really depends.

#9 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan:  The Watchmen don't have product for kids.  The only issue is when a charter is used for both kids and adults.  Like I said above the Batman: brave and bold Saturday morning cartoon is not the same as Batman from the Dark Knight movie.  Let me make it clear all comics are fine violent or not.  It is only when the same character is used for both that a parent has to be very vigilant. 
#10 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
This is true (though I've seen idiots that brought their kids to see Watchmen because "It's a superhero movie, and therefore should be meant for kids"). Watchmen had no action figures (well, they did. But they weren't marketed to kids. You can get them at certain comic / collectibles shops. Same for a Heath Ledger Joker figure). I kind of misunderstood the thread - I gotta learn to read the OP...
In my opinion, the only characters that can / should be marketed to kids are Superman and Spider-Man. Both have dark moments, but aren't that bad generally. If I'm wrong, correct me, as I don't usually read either except for a few issues.
Batman should not be marketed to kids. Ever. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. A lot of people think of him as being kid-friendly due to the Adam West series. Except for the Silver Age, Batman was always a dark character with dark villains. Dark Knight should not have had action figures or things like that (except for the figures that I mentioned above). Take Batman: Arkham Asylum. A dark video game, but it wasn't marketed to kids. They didn't have commercial ads on TV for it or anything like that. If there was an ad, it was late at night (I don't remember one, but most games seem to have ads at night)
I remember when I saw Episode III (... I think it was my fourth time, but that's not the point). There was a three year old kid there that left every time a violent scene came up (and that movie was pretty violent. Adults - someone I know included - can't even see the burning scene). Star Wars is another thing that shouldn't be marketed to kids.
#11 Posted by EisforExtinction (2014 posts) - - Show Bio

Comic books make are set up to make money over time. If they can sell to both kids and adults they will. If a Batman cartoon sells to kids it'll keep getting made, if a Batman comic arch written by Grant Morrison will sell then it will be sold. 
How can you be sure you kid doesn't read Batman Gothic when he's 11 like I did: engage with him what he's into. I don't want to give parental advise, as I currently have no desire for kids what-so-ever, but you, and to some degree your local comic store owner, need to act as a filter because there is no clear answer to what parts of comics are for kids and what aren't.

#12 Posted by Handcannon (546 posts) - - Show Bio

Just be sure to keep kids away from Garth Ennis

#13 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@Handcannon said:
" Just be sure to keep kids away from Garth Ennis "
I'd add Alan Moore to the list as well.
#14 Posted by DH69 (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

nowadays i'd say the mainstream universe of marvel is geared towards a more mature audience cough *ares guts* cough. but their marvel adventures line is great for all ages. dc i'd say they're the more mature side too catering to a smaller group of young readers

#15 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (82981 posts) - - Show Bio
@Liberty said:
"   A parent can;t buy something with Batman in it and know that it's safe without examining it.   "
Let me start by saying great post and welcome to the Vine. I am not a parent so my opinions and overall knowledge of what it takes to be one are lacking. Having said that, there were a couple statements in your posts that caught my eye. Shouldn't a parent examine everything they intend to buy for their children (assuming they are of a very young age)? You've obviously done enough research to know that Batman and other comicbook characters turned a corner several years ago and target a much older demographic then they did in their earlier years.  But really, examining things before buying them for kids should be automatic in my opinion. It seems really lazy to me for a parent to see, or read, a cover with Batman's image or name on it and just automatically assume its okay for a young child.
Same with certain cartoons and other sources of entertainment. If a parent just blindly bought their 4 year old a DVD collection of South Park simply because the cover looked cute and cartoony, then that is their  own irresponsibility. I believe most everything in todays market is labeled for age appropriations, including comics. There are several Batman (just using him as an example) child friendly options out there. There's really no reason why any parent would have to introduce their kid(s) to "The Dark Knight Returns" simply because they watch/enjoy "Batman the Brave and the Bold."
I'm not trying to single you out or be disrespectful. I fully understand what you are saying. I'm just speaking on what I believe to be a larger issue (again, not saying this is you) with parents expecting everyone else to do the parenting. I believe, in regards to comics, both Marvel and DC have created a specific child friendly line(s). I just found that out now by googling "child friendly comics" which any parent could easily do as well. Comicbooks, as well as the big name characters that most parents recognize from their childhood, have been geared for an older audience for years now, there's no getting around it. Most if not all of the main titles for these characters are not intended for a younger audience and parents should take a couple minutes to do a quick check on whats going on so they dont assume that the campy Scooby Doo guest starring Batman is the same Batman in the main titles of todays comics. 
It also depends on the parent as to what is acceptable and what is not. Some parents may not have a problem with their kid reading the Punisher at age 8 and some parents might have a problem with their 12 year old reading the Punisher (thats extreme but you get the idea). Up above you posted a picture of a toy Batman, but that Batman toy was not made for the Dark Knight movie. Its got all the "safe" features that are the norm for young kids. The goofy smile, the soft bubbly edges, bright and colorful costume, etc etc. It probably even said for ages 4 and up on the box. Below is a picture of a Batman figure from the movie. On the packages for characters from the Dark Knight movie it clearly states for ages 8 and up. Again, not being a parent myself I cant know for sure, but in my opinion there is nothing in the movie that would be over the line for an 8 year old (I'm sure everyone is different in that respect).
 Dark colors, stern look, sharp edges (not literally)


 I think this is a really interesting topic and feel sorry that you felt you would be attacked for it :P  As long as the material is properly labeled then it shouldn't matter whether or not some versions of Batman are of a mature nature while others are not. I cant speak for the comicbook companies themselves but I can speculate. I do not believe it is the same as cigarette companies targeting children, which is malicious. Instead I believe that along time ago comicbook companies realized that the real money wasn't with the parents who occasionally bought a comic for their kids here and there, but with the 13 to 30 year olds who don't think twice about dropping half a paycheck (or their paper route money) on a stack of comics every Wednesday. But they also didnt want to turn their back on the kids. So instead of dismissing them completely they set up alternate kid friendly versions of characters who's comics and movies had turned darker so that they can enjoy the same thrills we all had back in the day, when we didn't even really read the words but just looked at the pictures, and the characters we liked had little to nothing to do with their origin/background and everything to do with the way they looked lol.
#16 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow fantastic response.  I have to thank you for such a thought out intelligent  response.  I honestly agree with you on almost everything.  I obviously agree that a parent should do all they can to examine what there children are watching/reading.  Before I became a parent I have read books about parenting.  Several of them said that parents need to watch the same thing the children watch for just this reason.  Obviously with my comicvine wiki points and level as far as comics are concerned I know more than the average parent so I am better equipped but I still run into problems when dealing with this issue.  A couple examples would be friends and relative buying gifts for your child who may not be as knowledgeable as I.  They know they like Batman and buy any old thing with his face on it.  Then the parent break the kids heart when they take their present away.  They also have school and other activities where a parent is not around.  I know that is part of growing up and let's face it there are worse things but kids can not just see Batman and know it's safe and I think that is disappointing.  
You are also rright about the cigarette comment.  It is more difficult to make a point in this form rather than a face to face debate and I was using it as an extreme example to make my point.  I do not really believe they are at the same level.  When i go to a store and see something with Jason, Freddy, Saw, or Chucky  I know right away that it is violent.  Something like Batman (and again just using as an example) is not as clear.  
Lastly, and this is more of a separate issue but our rating system in the US is very flawed.  I have found out quickly that there are some things that are rated R that are fine and some things rated PG-13 that are not for children.  I would not let an eight year old see the Dark Night movie rated PG-13 but Spider-man with the same rating was fantastic! You may not be a parent but you sound like you would be a good one.

#17 Posted by CylonDorado (1880 posts) - - Show Bio

"There’s no such thing as comics for adults.  There are just comics for kids and comics for kids that they have to hide from their parents because they contain drawings of boobs." 
I don't think that's true, but I think that quote is hillarious XD.

#18 Posted by mimschkin (649 posts) - - Show Bio

The point is, film (and other) companies want to capitalise as much as possible on what they're making. By saying something is made solely for adults, they alienate the younger generation - no money from them. So the way they do it now, they get to have their cake and eat it too. It's just the business of the industry.
Like @Liberty said, film ratings (and other ratings) are annoying, flawed, and imprecise (and also terribly subjective). Here in the UK, it's the same. The Dark Knight was rated 12A - meaning any child under 12 is allowed to see it with adult supervision. The BBFC suggests that the absolute minimum age is 8, which some might see as being too liberal. A useful website that the BBFC set up was the PBBFC, which is the Parents' BBFC - containing all the issues and topics concerning ratings and such that parents need to know.
But then, social context changes - things that were controversial 20 years ago are seen as normal now (just take a look at A Clockwork Orange which was banned for a long time before receiving an 18 certificate. The "brutal" scenes in that film look tame compared to something like those in the Hostel or Saw films). In the same way, things that are seen as controversial now might not be in the future. 
I've just noticed I haven't actually mentioned comics, which was the main issue here. I think drawing a firm line drawn between children and adult content is difficult, and particularly risky in business terms. A lot of comics are marketed with children in mind (for example with the merchandise), because children are a profitable demographic, it's as simple as that. So if those children were to stop having stuff aimed at them (and hence, wanting their parents to buy it for them), companies would be losing a bunch of money they would otherwise have had. That's not to say they couldn't start investing in other audiences (they could alter their lines into more collectible adult-oriented merch), but especially now in the recession, it's unlikely that they'd ever do that.
On the other hand, I grew up with a very lenient background. My parents let me watch pretty much what I wanted (I was on Buffy by the age of 9), and hey, I turned out just fine. What is the issue here - is it that children should be shielded from the material because it might disturb them? Or that they might copy it? I guess that's where the 'subjective' thing came from.
And regarding the parenting: an an ideal world parents would check everything through but the fact is that people just don't do it.

#19 Posted by DeadPool a.k.a Wade Wilson (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

Good question considering that Comics were that in the beginning and were viewed as that for awhile why? Because it had that kid safe look but as time progressed the comic book industry started to get more serious with it's writing and started took take on a more darker tone and anyone who has followed Batman comic since day one as I have know this to be true but that doesn't mean that Kids can't handle it no, i'm not gonna suggest Watchmen to a Seven year old but that's not the point the point is they're are Comics for Adults and Comics for Kids how these lines get blurred.. well that's another story

#20 Posted by speedlgt (2138 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a parent and I think its very clear that both marvel and DC are trying to target both kids and adults in different ways. the short answer is that superheroes are infact for both kids and adults. I would say that just about ALL comics are ment for young to full adults with less than 10% ok and safe for kids. but thats cause young adults and adults are the ones who can buy those and are intrested in them. 
for kids there are the special products like DC superfriends toys batman brave and bold and marvel super hero squad. allthose are safe for kids it stresses the good of heroes helping and stoping the villans. and that is a positive massage for kids. To tell them that yes there are bad people out there but good people can stop them and help eachother. That is a realistic message that kids can understand. 
now if your thinking about what heroes are "safe" for kids than we cant judge too hard cause if we do NONE of them are safe. 
in general spiderman is considered very kid safe. In fact i would say that spiderman has steped down as marvels top hero for all and basically hes the marvel top hero for kids while wolverine is marvels top property for adults. 
superman as well is a very safe choice in his strong moral fiber  
batman is many ways is a better hero to kids than spiderman.......WHAT?? oh yes he is......hes a good example of how a child can deal with a hard situation and turn it into helping others. yes hes dark and vengance and all that BUT hes all good inside.........unlike spiderman who makes fun of others and is ok with dodgeing a  bullet and letting it hit his villian killing him all while he would just make some smart comment like you had that comming!!  
also spidermans selfishness hurts others all the time. 
I dont hate on spidey but there are aspects about his character that I dont like for my kids.   
 all other superheroes are a mess of killers, or those who abuse power, those who sleep around, or ones who try to rule the world for good of the people and basically alot of flaws


#21 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio
Do you see any Teletubbies in here? Do you see a slender plastic tag clipped to my shirt with my name printed on it? Do you see a little Asian child with a blank expression on his face sitting outside on a mechanical helicopter that shakes when you put quarters in it? No? Well, that's what you see at a toy store. And you must think you're in a toy store, because you're here shopping for an infant named Jeb. 
#22 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio
@speedlgt:   I do like how much batman hates guns in the DCAU of cartoons.  I'm not against owning guns as an issue but his hatred is a reminder that guns are dangerous in a cartoon where the bad guys shoot all over the place.
#23 Posted by CylonDorado (1880 posts) - - Show Bio
Of course not. This is the internet.
#24 Posted by joshmightbe (25858 posts) - - Show Bio

marvel has a rating system and most comics geared specifically toward adults have the sugested for mature readers sign on them but the best way to see if they're fit for your child to read is to read it yourself before giving it to them dc and marvel both have lines specifically for children as well

#25 Posted by Matezoide2 (16065 posts) - - Show Bio

it depends on the comic,simple as that

#26 Posted by speedlgt (2138 posts) - - Show Bio
@Liberty said:
" @speedlgt:   I do like how much batman hates guns in the DCAU of cartoons.  I'm not against owning guns as an issue but his hatred is a reminder that guns are dangerous in a cartoon where the bad guys shoot all over the place. "

i think as a dad i would stress to kids who like batman why hes a good man.....for example he brought in all the robins and took care of them and raised them to help people. hes rich and while hes a crime fighter he also uses his wealth to help people in the city. He works closely with the police showing that he knows who the real law is and hes really just there to help them in ways they cant. 
i understand where your coming from with batman.........hes a dark character coming from a dark place with dark villans around him. But he really is a hero of light who uses the dark aginst those who are evil. 
and of course the best thing about batman is hes normal no powers and i think thats a great thing for a kid to see that to be a hero all you need is a will to help others and strong mind.
#27 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
Batman himself isn't the problem. The villains, on the other hand, are dark, sadistic, cruel, and generally insane. Do you think Batman: Battle for the Cowl is kid friendly? Killing Joke is also very dark. Arkham Asylum also has dark moments.
#28 Posted by AssertingValor (6151 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Batman comics are geared for all ages. Depending on your age and comprehension, you can get different thing out of reading a comic..

#29 Posted by time (5771 posts) - - Show Bio

Both, depends on the comic.

#30 Posted by akbogert (3285 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy gravedigging, Batman.

You can't get a real consensus for this because people have different views on what is or is not acceptable (and society grows ever more relative with each passing year). That said...

I always get really angry when I see the media reporting on how video games played a role in [insert violent crime perpetrated by minor here]. Part of that anger is derived from the fact that the games they point to are invariably designed for adults, rated "M" for mature, and only marketed towards mature audiences. I can be righteously indignant, and in good conscience defend the industry, because the fact that young people play these games is entirely on their parents' failure to, well, parent.

But with comics, it's not so black and white. The industry sends incredibly mixed messages. And yeah, profit's their bottom line, but intentionally marketing inappropriate content to minors (or willfully creating confusion in that regard) has been recognized as unethical and, typically, illegal. That's why mature-rated games don't get daytime advertising time, why fruity cigarettes are banned in the US, why you'll never see a redband trailer in a theater except before an R-Rated movie. Sometimes the law goes beyond what my libertarian sensibilities deem reasonable, but the fact remains: it's in the best interest of kids, parents, and the industry to make it as clear as possible whether a product contains material unsuitable for children. I don't really think they do a good job of that. Maybe they were doing it worse two or three years ago (when this thread was created), but I still think there's room for improvement.

#31 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6708 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's alright having different age categories for comic characters as long as you make sure they're being used correctly. If you enjoy Batman when you're little, you can continue to enjoy his adventures in new ways as you grow up. If you do it gradually, it'll not be too damaging to your mind, I imagine. As long as it's an age appropriate version, things should be alright.

I watched the Batman Animated Series when I was younger, and had toys from it, and liked the two Joel Schumacher Batman films(don't judge me, I was young). When I was a bit older I saw the Tim Burton films, which indeed were darker than my previous Batman experiences, but I was old enough to appreciate them. It was only last year that I started buying comic books and realised that they often are for an older audience, and not for children, as I've had to explain to my dad quite frequently who thinks they're all for children. The Christopher Nolan films do seem a bit grown up too.

Now that I'm talking about this, I'm wondering if my parents deliberately kept my Batman viewing age appropriate. I remember wanting a Batman figure I'd seen in a shop, and it must've been based on one of the Tim Burton films as I was told that I couldn't have it because it was from a grown up film. I can't remember if I managed to convince them or not, but I didn't see the films until I was at least thirteen anyway.

Anyway, if something's too mature for the children, just keep it away from them and things should be fine. :)

By the way, I'm not a parent, if that makes any difference to what I've just said.

#32 Edited by Eternal19 (2161 posts) - - Show Bio

depends on the comic.Certain characters like superman and flash are okay for anyone to read others like wolverine and batman tend to sway back and forth from more adult oriented to okay for all ages

#33 Posted by colonyofcells (2039 posts) - - Show Bio

Even during the golden age when comics were for kids, they were enjoyed by adults such as soldiers. Nowadays, comics are mainly for teens but they can be enjoyed by kids and adults. Even kids can appreciate adult themes bec. kids are not dumb. Even cartoons for kids or comics for kids can have too much violence if you look at those Looney Tunes cartoons where the characters are seriously hurting each other.

#34 Posted by roboadmiral (558 posts) - - Show Bio

Is there a reason comics can't be for kids and adults? One of my earliest memories of comic reading was a Wolverine miniseries that my brother had bought that most adults would probably say I shouldn't have been reading for several more years. But that's part of growing up. It's how kids learn and develop. They see new things and have to find ways to process it. The "what about the children?" line is never one I've been good at stomaching.

#35 Posted by blackwolf0925 (151 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait a minute here ain't there an age rating for comic books. If not than I think they should.To me it just seems a little odd that publishers are not giving ratings to comics when other forms of literature do.

#36 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordMaverick: @time: @akbogert: @Eternal19: @colonyofcells: @roboadmiral: @blackwolf0925: Akbogert said it best. Perfect post. right down to the "Holy Grave Digging Batman" I did not think I would see what I think was my first blog pop up again. What others missed however is the mixture of making a movie like Dark Knight for adults and having action figures of the movie sold with kids as the target consumer. It is not about rating when you make an R movie and then gear the merchandise for kids. Some stuff is rated but only the savvy consumer knows what it appropriate for their child. It often happens that a well intentioned Grandparent buys the wrong product thinking it is alright not knowing the content. When a comic fan on a comic website like (blackwolf0925 in the post just above) does not know if there is a rating on comics how are parents who have no idea expected too?

#37 Posted by Crash_Recovery (855 posts) - - Show Bio

Comics are for adults now...and that's killing the industry due to lack of growth.

Comics are priced out of the range of children and are sold in places that kids don't go to with their parents.

Comics are increasingly graphic in all regards and the number of all ages books is shrinking.

If a real move isn't made to bring in new readers (availability, price, format) the comic market is only going to continue to shrink.

Gimmicky tweaking, reboots and .1s serve only to shuffle adult readers from one company are title to another. The market needs to grow again rather than just keep fighting over the same 30-40 year olds.

#38 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

Comics are for adults now...and that's killing the industry due to lack of growth.

Comics are priced out of the range of children and are sold in places that kids don't go to with their parents.

Comics are increasingly graphic in all regards and the number of all ages books is shrinking.

If a real move isn't made to bring in new readers (availability, price, format) the comic market is only going to continue to shrink.

Gimmicky tweaking, reboots and .1s serve only to shuffle adult readers from one company are title to another. The market needs to grow again rather than just keep fighting over the same 30-40 year olds.

Wow this blog is getting better posts now I think than when it was posted 2 years ago. I agree with you completely.

#39 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3296 posts) - - Show Bio

@CylonDorado said:

"There’s no such thing as comics for adults. There are just comics for kids and comics for kids that they have to hide from their parents because they contain drawings of boobs."


#40 Posted by Crash_Recovery (855 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Lunact_And_Manic: That's silly. Yes there are certainly comics that are "mature" because they're gratuitous (like Many TV shows or Video games) but there are also great examples in all of those mediums where a story is thoughtful and well put together and contains mature themes.

#41 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3296 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery: I was joking ,but, I'm not going to read Birds Of Prey or Hellblazer at my grandmother's house..

#42 Edited by blackwolf0925 (151 posts) - - Show Bio

@Liberty: I don't really read comics myself, I am more of an outsider looking in. I am interested in the general outlook of comics. I am more of an Manga reader than anything and I know for fact that Manga has age ratings and genre's for the targeted audiences. I was just wondering about the fact if comics do this. The only current comic book series I own is Empowered and that is an Mature book by age rating standards. I checked out comics at my local library to see if this was something that the mainstream publishers did. I was surprised to find that really only some of them did have age ratings on them. The more recent the comics have this but a lot of the older ones don't.

#43 Posted by Liberty (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwolf0925: My bad. I made an assumption. Sorry. I do think my overall point is valid but then that would be obvious. I'm glad to posted here. Thank you.