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#51 Posted by RetconCrisis (3373 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom (Zolomon), Dr. Strange (classic), Dr. Fate (classic), beings Galactus and stronger, omnipotent and nigh-omnipotent beings, beings that can control reality or time to stop Flash in a spot.

#52 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (4380 posts) - - Show Bio

After learning what Captain Atom can do I wouldn't put it past him.

#53 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83

@TheComicPro

@sheenlantern said:

@captnmcdeadpool: I really don't know how my point can still escape you.

Oh, no. You are coming across loud and clear. It's that you are absolutely convinced your reasoning is sound when it isn't. The feats I submitted don't have to make sense from your stand point, particularly one as biased as you've consistently presented yourself to be.

It only has to make sense from the stand point of a comic book. And we are debating comic book feats right? I mean that is the medium we are discussing, yes? If so, do yourself a favor and stop trying to explain away the clear evidence that has been presented before you and accept it for what it is: a comic book feat. The feat itself is the controlling factor...every other consideration is only secondary. Someone earlier mentioned different writers writing the same character over decades of continuity and the resulting disparities. This is obviously true from a general stand point. However, there is remarkable consistency where the Silver Surfer's speed is concerned.

How many times do I have to explain this to you? Even infinite speed could not allow someone to move while time is frozen.

Again, you are trying to rationalize away a comic book feat. If that was the approach, NO ONE would get very far on a battle forums discussion. Accept it for what it is: a comic book feat. Insane speed is what allows Wally to move through time. It is also what allows Norrin to move through time. Sheer speed. Period.

It's not a feat of speed.

Yes, it is. What does Comic Vine say about the speed force? Here is the link:

http://www.comicvine.com/speed-force/4015-42071/

I'll quote the pertinent parts:

“The Speed Force serves as the primary measure of velocity in the DC Universe. It is usually referred to in terms of different barriers: The Sound barrier, Light barrier, Time Barrier, Dimensional Barrier, and finally the Speed Force Barrier.”

Let's see: sound, light, TIME,...how do you think Wally crosses the time barrier? Velocity or some others say it: speed.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

From Flash 98, the narrative at the top two panels makes it clear that to push past light and break the time barrier is contingent on ACCELERATION
Same book, again pushing past the time barrier results from what? VELOCITY

Just so you are aware, acceleration and velocity are functions of speed. Wally's speed here pushes him past light and to speeds fast enough to travel time.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

speed and velocity was not required to do this?
literally running outside known space time where death ceases to exist? No speed on this one either
Wally is usually regarded as the fastest Flash. Why? He is the only Flash who consistently moves through time under his own speed

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You catch that SheenLantern? The connection between velocity and time travel? But you would know this, since you are a fan of the Flash, as am I. What about Marvel? What do they say about time travel? Here is the link:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Time_travel

Again, I'll quote the pertinent parts:

“Time travel is the process of leaving the timestream at a given point, traversing through the timeless realm of Limbo for a timeless interval, and re-entering timestream at another point, not having physically aged in transit….Limbo is a dimension that is unique in that it exists outside the timestream and thus possesses no time…there are three possible methods of time travel in the Marvel Universe: a. Time travel machines. b. Magic. c. Personally generated energy

Did you get that? In the Marvel universe, three things make time travel possible. The one that applies to the Silver Surfer is personally generated energy. Get it? That means, sheer, raw, speed. Period. Again, it does not have to make sense from your stand point, or from the stand point of real world science. It is what it is: a comic book feat.

What about Surfer's feats? Has he been able to traverse time the same as Wally? Let's take a look:

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

SS 6, volume one, Surfer crosses the light speed barrier, much like Wally above, to travel time. That takes velocity
SS 51, vol 2. Key word above? SPEED. What was the result of said speed?
Next page, same comic. The result was they traveled time. Notice he uses the word FAST. Typically, this word is related to speed.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Notice the word SPEED above again?
Again, the term VELOCITY is used above, a term normally associated with speed

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mighty Thor 193, notice Norrin uses the terms faster, a term normally associated with....SPEED
Said speed results in time travel and a time BFR for Durok

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So the scans I showed earlier of Norrin fighting Deathurge while time is frozen? How did he do that? The same as he always has. SPEED.

#54 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: You're wasting your time. Wally's fanboys think he can beat anyone short of TOAA via Speed Steal.

Kind of sad really. Battle forum rules address this very subject. The whole idea is to learn what a character is really capable of. That's part of the fun. But to insist otherwise in the face of clear evidence? Just makes some folks look foolish.

#55 Posted by Pokeysteve (8076 posts) - - Show Bio

Wally rarely fights smart so a lot of people can beat him in character.

#56 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: Every character, and even universe, has fanboys. People who, rather than appreciate the character with the limitations and weaknesses he/she has, blows their chosen character/universe into something far beyond what he/she really is. The worst of them refuse to believe their chosen character/universe is capable of losing.

Generally, they take one of the core concepts of the character/universe, and hyper-focus on that. I.e. Flash is "the fastest man alive", Doomsday can "evolve resistance to anything", Goku is "the strongest fighter in the universe."

Or one or two specific abilities in the character, like Doomsday's ability to evolve(especially the H/P version), Flash(Wally)'s Speed Steal, etc.

Try debating against some of the fanboys for Doomsday, Hancock, Dragonball(pick a character), Superman, Batman, Classic Strange, or Storm. It's like slamming your face against a brick wall.

#57 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Every Wally vs. thread seems to have someone going, "Flash speed-steals and IMPs, or BFRs into another dimension" for the auto-victory. Any merit to such claims, Flash experts?

#58 Posted by Havenless (1306 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys, Flash can't fly.

Surfer can just blow up Earth. Flash's best case scenario is to go to the speed force dimension, but then he won't be able to come back. That would be a win by the Surfer.

#59 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow. Flash is the new DBZ lol.

#60 Edited by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: You see, this is why quoting is needed. Because you're tying things I've said to statements I wasn't referring to.

#61 Posted by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless:

Guys, Flash can't fly.

Yes he can.

Surfer can just blow up Earth.

Oh wow, this again. The false assumption that Surfer would have time to even make a move.

Flash's best case scenario is to go to the speed force dimension, but then he won't be able to come back.

I've already posted a scan of Flash coming back from the speed force....

@veshark said:

Every Wally vs. thread seems to have someone going, "Flash speed-steals and IMPs, or BFRs into another dimension" for the auto-victory. Any merit to such claims, Flash experts?

Uh, yeah. Nearly 7000 posts and you haven't seen the scans?

#62 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio
#63 Edited by Havenless (1306 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless:

Guys, Flash can't fly.

Yes he can.

Surfer can just blow up Earth.

Oh wow, this again. The false assumption that Surfer would have time to even make a move.

Flash's best case scenario is to go to the speed force dimension, but then he won't be able to come back.

I've already posted a scan of Flash coming back from the speed force....

@veshark said:

Every Wally vs. thread seems to have someone going, "Flash speed-steals and IMPs, or BFRs into another dimension" for the auto-victory. Any merit to such claims, Flash experts?

Uh, yeah. Nearly 7000 posts and you haven't seen the scans?

1. So where's he going to fly to if the Earth is destroyed? How long can he breathe in space?

2. Surfer can go incorporeal. He has all the time in the world.

3. This was related to my first post, he wouldn't come back because there's no Earth to come back to.

#64 Posted by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless:

How long can he breathe in space?

He doesn't need to breathe at all. The Speed Force sustains him.

Surfer can go incorporeal.

Oh wow, this again. The false assumption that Surfer would have time to even make a move.

Besides, Flash can force people tangible.

#65 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio


@veshark said:

Every Wally vs. thread seems to have someone going, "Flash speed-steals and IMPs, or BFRs into another dimension" for the auto-victory. Any merit to such claims, Flash experts?

Uh, yeah. Nearly 7000 posts and you haven't seen the scans?

You'll forgive me for waiting for other arguments.

#66 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless said:

1. So where's he going to fly to if the Earth is destroyed? How long can he breathe in space?

Evidently, it's related to the speed force.

*shrugs*

It doesn't really make any sense, but it IS part of his demonstrated feats in continuity.

2. Surfer can go incorporeal. He has all the time in the world.

Well...not quite. To me, incorporeal means a character like Deathurge. He CAN change his physical body to an incorporeal one with a thought. The surfer phases, evidently, much the same way Martian Manhunter does...literally bending his molecules around the molecules of what he is moving through.

3. This was related to my first post, he wouldn't come back because there's no Earth to come back to.

See my response to your first question.

So...back on topic. There are plenty of folks who can beat Wally. Thing is, a lot of people chalk Wally's wins up to "fanboyism". I agree, there is a lot of that around here when it comes to discussions about DC speedsters. However, too many people consider not only a proposed fight with Wally in it, but a LOT of proposed battles, by what has happened in comic books.

Allow me to clarify.

Although the battle forum rules are a little ambiguous in some spots, I think the spirit of Comic Vine's battle forum rules are an attempt to cut through the PIS that is common in many comic book, particularly those with extreme power sets. Like Wally West. PIS...plot induced stupidity...is when a character (like Superman) doesn't put most of his opponents down withing the first few pages of his book. Obviously, this would become tedious to even fans of Superman and the character would become boring very fast. So...writer arrange the story in such a fashion as to make it appear Superman struggles with most of his opponents. The fact is (although I am not a Superman expert, but I'm acquainted...), Superman going balls out every time....I could not imagine too many that hang with the Man of Steel for very long.

In my opinion, high feats should generally be considered. Someone mentioned earlier about many writers writing a character over years, sometimes DECADES, of continuity. Think all those writers opinions about characters agree? My old man was chatting with Kurt Busiek on CBR some time ago and the comment was made that there really are not a lot of standard/protocol in place when it comes to carefully categorizing a character's set of powers. Pretty surprising. You'd think that would be part of the deal...carefully researching what a character can and cannot do...but it really is not the case. So, to say that low feats should not be dismissed....I don't know. Personally, I think they should. I remember reading a book some years ago and Beta Ray Bill and Thor had to strain to lift Asgard over their heads. I'm sure Asgard is probably millions upon millions of tons...but Thor's feats of strength eclipse this by a sizable margin. But I'm pretty sure the writer of that magazine really thought he was lifting something heavy. So really, I personally think it is more beneficial to consider the comments of a well read battle forum junkie than the writer of a comic book even...because, well...they get it wrong and they are the reason for said inconsistencies. Personally, I think it is good to know the answers to questions like: 1) What did the creator of this character intend for this character when he/she was first created? 2) Has the evolution of the character's power set over his/her entire continuity seen an increase or a decrease in said character's powers? If so, why? Was there a retconn? Did the character's power change by design at a definite point in the character's continuity? Or...have there inexplicably just been some low feats? 3) Is the writer of the comic a fan of the character? Does the writer like the character? Sometimes, you can find these things out in interview and what not. All of these things should be taken into consideration in order to come to an accurate understanding of what a character is actually capable of.

Again, the idea is to weed through the BS typically associated with most comic stories...and I know that sound counter intuitive...but it's true...and to get to the hard shell of what the character is actually capable of based on feats.

There are any number of examples I could give of low feats for a variety of characters, but I think you get the point. Any and every character, including Wally, can be lowballed. But it really serves no purpose. Folks on battle forums want to know what a character can do when the *ahem* throttle is wide open, know what I mean?

Having said all that: Wally is immensely fast. There are only a handful who are equal to him...and maybe only a few more who are actually faster.

When considering ANY proposed battle forum discussion, speed has to be in top three primary considerations as a determining factor in the outcome of any battle forum fight.

Why?

Because, if the character is so fast that his opponent can't even see him coming, how is that character really going to have any success in the fight? Now, having said that, there are simply some characters that due to their power set, are either resistant to extreme punishment, like the kind Wally could deliver should he choose to wail on someone at crazy speeds, or otherwise, have extreme power sets of their own.

A common fight that comes up is Superman vs. Thor, or Wally West vs Thor. Love me some Thor...but...

He just isn't fast enough to deal with what Wally and Superman have shown in terms of speed for him to effectively deal with them.

It is what it is. Feats should be KING in any given battle forums discussion. And speed kills.

#67 Edited by patrat18 (8919 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL.

#68 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Rune King Thor defeat him. I mean Godblast to the facex-(

#69 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecomicpro: Sure. If he could hit him. If we consider your question against the backdrop of a typical comic book, Thor would probably win and I doubt most writers would even consider Wally on the same level as Thor.

EDIT: just noticed...RKT is the one being considered. RKT is way out of Wallys league.

If we consider each character throttle wide open, from a logical stand point, Thor wont have time to do anything to Wally.

#71 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool:

Who would win in these scenarios

Flash(moralls off and blood lust) vs Superman-Prime

Flash (moralls off and blood lust) Vs Batman with 24hrs prep

#72 Edited by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Galactus defeat Wally??

#73 Posted by MarlboroMan (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

@havenless:

How long can he breathe in space?

He doesn't need to breathe at all. The Speed Force sustains him.

Surfer can go incorporeal.

Oh wow, this again. The false assumption that Surfer would have time to even make a move.

Besides, Flash can force people tangible.

Please show me scans of Flash running in the space or breathing,chilling,flying etc in space if you don't mind. Because i have never seen him doing such feat

#74 Edited by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@havenless:

How long can he breathe in space?

He doesn't need to breathe at all. The Speed Force sustains him.

Surfer can go incorporeal.

Oh wow, this again. The false assumption that Surfer would have time to even make a move.

Besides, Flash can force people tangible.

Please show me scans of Flash running in the space or breathing,chilling,flying etc in space if you don't mind. Because i have never seen him doing such feat

#75 Posted by MarlboroMan (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman said:

@sheenlantern said:

@havenless:

How long can he breathe in space?

He doesn't need to breathe at all. The Speed Force sustains him.

Surfer can go incorporeal.

Oh wow, this again. The false assumption that Surfer would have time to even make a move.

Besides, Flash can force people tangible.

Please show me scans of Flash running in the space or breathing,chilling,flying etc in space if you don't mind. Because i have never seen him doing such feat



what about this one?

#76 Posted by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio
#77 Edited by deaditegonzo (3683 posts) - - Show Bio

I am staying out of the SS vs Flash debate, but I did want to ask: Isnt Dr. Strange's, even classic Dr. Strange, abilities based on actual "spells"? Whether Spoken, pantomimed, or just "thought", I thought Dr. Strange used spells?

If he has to use spells, while he may have any number of spells that can completely annihilate, unmake, or destroy Wally, he'd never get the chance.

#78 Posted by MarlboroMan (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman: That only happened because he slowed down.

I think it's just because he just can survive couple seconds just like everyone else like this another instance he was dying in space. He obviously cannot survive in space

#79 Edited by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@marlboroman: That only happened because he slowed down.

I think it's just because he just can survive couple seconds just like everyone else like this another instance he was dying in space. He obviously cannot survive in space

Considering it says in that very scan that it's not Wally, and that the Supergirl scan was written by Jeph Loeb of all people., these instances aren't really worth taking into serious consideration, after all. Flash is supposed to be a being of pure energy, not an organic man, there's no reason why he should need to breathe since he doesn't need to eat or sleep.

#80 Posted by MarlboroMan (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

@marlboroman said:

@sheenlantern said:

@marlboroman: That only happened because he slowed down.

I think it's just because he just can survive couple seconds just like everyone else like this another instance he was dying in space. He obviously cannot survive in space

Considering it says in that very scan that it's not Wally, and that the Supergirl scan was written by Jeph Loeb of all people., these instances aren't really worth taking into serious consideration, after all. Flash is supposed to be a being of pure energy, not an organic man, there's no reason why he should need to breathe since he doesn't need to eat or sleep.

Then why does he bleed if he is not organic, pure energy beings doesn't have flesh.

#81 Posted by NICK31898 (2087 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool said:

Zoom II, the Silver Surfer, Thanos, classic Dr Strange, the Runner, Gladiator. All I can think of now.

These are the only 2 out of that list that could beat him.

Silver surfer also.....

#82 Edited by ZombieMowlcher (677 posts) - - Show Bio

Dormammu combined with eternitey, swamp thing, and the most powerful THE MASK!!!! Toonforce>>>>>>> everything else.

#83 Posted by Cjdavis103 (8655 posts) - - Show Bio

This Guy

#84 Posted by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern right as usual:P I hope you're kidding on the IQ tho haha

#85 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@marlboroman said:

@sheenlantern said:

@marlboroman: That only happened because he slowed down.

I think it's just because he just can survive couple seconds just like everyone else like this another instance he was dying in space. He obviously cannot survive in space

Considering it says in that very scan that it's not Wally, and that the Supergirl scan was written by Jeph Loeb of all people., these instances aren't really worth taking into serious consideration, after all. Flash is supposed to be a being of pure energy, not an organic man, there's no reason why he should need to breathe since he doesn't need to eat or sleep.

Then why does he bleed if he is not organic, pure energy beings doesn't have flesh.

Indeed. Wally has ambiguous durability. It would appear the speed force grants him a measure of protection againt blunt force trauma, but he still suffers from any number of very human, mortal wounds.

#86 Posted by danhimself (22292 posts) - - Show Bio


You sure about that? 180 IQ Cattell Scale.


I'm sorry but I had to stop and point this out as what I'm pretty sure is B.S....you saying that you have an IQ of 180 on the Cattel scale means that you have an IQ of 156 on the Wechsler scale and I'm sorry but I find that absolutely impossible to believe because that means you're 4 points shy of Stephen Hawking's 160 and only 6 points shy of Albert Einstein's 162...it means that you're part of only 2% of the Earth's population who have IQ's greater than 130

#87 Posted by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio
#88 Edited by MarlboroMan (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

You sure about that? 180 IQ Cattell Scale.


I'm sorry but I had to stop and point this out as what I'm pretty sure is B.S....you saying that you have an IQ of 180 on the Cattel scale means that you have an IQ of 156 on the

Wechsler scale and I'm sorry but I find that absolutely impossible to believe because that means you're 4 points shy of Stephen Hawking's 160 and only 6 points shy of Albert Einstein's 162...it means that you're part of only 2% of the Earth's population who have IQ's greater than 130

My bulls%$t senses are tingling

#89 Posted by SheenLantern (6253 posts) - - Show Bio
#90 Edited by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Wally defeat Galactus?

#91 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio
#92 Posted by Cjdavis103 (8655 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecomicpro:

NO

galctus destroys the planet from space

Or he reality warps flash

or he just uses the ultimate nulafier gets rid of the speed force and steps on him

Big G is on a whole nother level there is no way flash wins

#93 Edited by Cjdavis103 (8655 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecomicpro:

the Doctor Solos

DS ( bastard!) solo god stomps

Dr strange ( with 30 seconds prep )

Jojo 20 seconds prep ( steals speed force )

Dragonborn ( full power , 30 seconds prep)

ghost rider Full power

Aizen ( 3 weeks prep with knowledge)

Batman ( ambush scenario with 2 weeks prep on top of whatever planes he already has)

Blackheart

melphasto

Possible Beast Cole

any reality warpers with prep

that should work for now

#94 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio
#95 Posted by westy206 (576 posts) - - Show Bio

Any planet buster. Destroy earth and Flash is dead.

Online
#96 Posted by Dernman (14761 posts) - - Show Bio

Theoretically Barry should take Wally easily since Barry is the Speed Force that Wally taps into. Though I don't think there are any feats to prove it.

Online
#97 Posted by MarlboroMan (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecomicpro: Galactus is not even going to recognize Wally's existence

#98 Posted by dondave (34579 posts) - - Show Bio

Takion

#99 Edited by Catsnlynne (1000 posts) - - Show Bio

The leaders of DC comics can defeat Wally but not making him exist anymore.

#100 Posted by tony__stark (27 posts) - - Show Bio

The ignorance of the flash fanboy is incredible. SS would murder flash