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#1 Edited by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard that Batman beat him with "vibra-bullets" but Flash could dodge those in his sleep.

#2 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11154 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure there's a few people who could beat him.

#3 Posted by AllStarHit-Girl (543 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom

#4 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom II, the Silver Surfer, Thanos, classic Dr Strange, the Runner, Gladiator. All I can think of now.

#5 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom II, the Silver Surfer, Thanos, classic Dr Strange, the Runner, Gladiator. All I can think of now.

These are the only 2 out of that list that could beat him.

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#6 Posted by _Atomikill_ (3633 posts) - - Show Bio

Hiro Nakamura! STOPPIN TIME AND KILLIN NINJAS

#7 Posted by cameron83 (6748 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom II, the Silver Surfer, Thanos, classic Dr Strange, the Runner, Gladiator. All I can think of now.

Actually,the only ones out of that list that can beat him are:

  • Thanos
  • Dr Strange
  • I think Darkseid
  • Zoom

#8 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Uh-huh. Ive read plenty of Flash...been a fan for some time. Presentation of the character Wally West does not put him in the big leagues with the character mentioned. Additionally, feats of Wally West do not place him above most of the characters I mentioned.

#9 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

Arm fall-off boy

#10 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: Speed steal to the brain - Instant K.O.

I'm beginning to have doubts about Dr. Strange.

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#11 Posted by kgb725 (6078 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Doom

#12 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: He has to get close enough to the really fast characters to do so. What makes you think that will be his first choice? What is to keep the Surfer from KOing him with a bolt of the power cosmic or Gladiator one shotting him?

#13 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

He has to get close enough to the really fast characters to do so.

No he doesn't. But he's faster than all of them combined tenfold.

What makes you think that will be his first choice?

He can squeeze an eternity out of a moment. It doesn't have to be his first choice.

What is to keep the Surfer from KOing him with a bolt of the power cosmic or Gladiator one shotting him?

Right, so you were lying about reading plenty of Flash?

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#14 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool said:

He has to get close enough to the really fast characters to do so.

No he doesn't. But he's faster than all of them combined tenfold.

Show me feats of Wally fighting while moving through time. Gladiator and the Surfer are every bit as fast, by presentation and by feats.

What makes you think that will be his first choice?

He can squeeze an eternity out of a moment. It doesn't have to be his first choice.

As can some of the other characters mentioned above. Zoom, is well above Wally upon presentation and feats.

What is to keep the Surfer from KOing him with a bolt of the power cosmic or Gladiator one shotting him?

Right, so you were lying about reading plenty of Flash?

I think the real question, is what of the characters I've mentioned have you read. I'm very familiar with Wally. I've read a number of your posts. I would not surprise me at all if you'd never read anything with the Surfer or Gladiator in it. If you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

#15 Posted by Farkam (4821 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Edited by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

Show me feats of Wally fighting while moving through time.

Fighting while time travelling? Why is that relevant?

Gladiator and the Surfer are every bit as fast, by presentation and by feats.

No they're not. Nowhere near.

INB4 Travel speed feat for Surfer

As can some of the other characters mentioned above.

Who, exactly?

Zoom, is well above Wally upon presentation and feats.

Not the brightest bulb, are you? I've already conceded Zoom would crush Wally.

I think the real question, is what of the characters I've mentioned have you read. I'm very familiar with Wally. I've read a number of your posts. I would not surprise me at all if you'd never read anything with the Surfer or Gladiator in it. If you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Well, I know neither of them are fast enough to even blink before Wally kills them, I know there's nothing stopping Wally from just dodging the attacks, vibrating through the attacks, dimension phasing through the attacks etc. etc.

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#17 Posted by cameron83 (6748 posts) - - Show Bio

Show me feats of Wally fighting while moving through time.

Fighting while time travelling? Why is that relevant?

Gladiator and the Surfer are every bit as fast, by presentation and by feats.

No they're not. Nowhere near.

As can some of the other characters mentioned above.

Who, exactly?

Zoom, is well above Wally upon presentation and feats.

Not the brightest bulb, are you? I've already conceded Zoom would crush Wally.

I think the real question, is what of the characters I've mentioned have you read. I'm very familiar with Wally. I've read a number of your posts. I would not surprise me at all if you'd never read anything with the Surfer or Gladiator in it. If you had, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Well, I know neither of them are fast enough to even blink before Wally kills them, I know there's nothing stopping Wally from just dodging the attacks, vibrating through the attacks, dimension phasing through the attacks etc. etc.

While I think that Wally will win,do you have to be so rude and condescending?

#18 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by cameron83 (6748 posts) - - Show Bio

@cameron83: Yes. I like being myself.

-_______-

Okay.......I mean,it's not really necessary at all and it seems petty and uncivil,but whatever........

#20 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

Fighting while time travelling? Why is that relevant?

Trick question: how much time elapses when a character travels time? Hmmmm....

No they're not. Nowhere near.

Both characters have feats of engaging in combat during frozen time. Technically, Wally does not. I'll address that.

Who, exactly?

Zoom II is hands down faster than everyone I mentioned. I'd figure you'd know that. And the others, Surfer and Gladiator are just as fast. The Runner is a matter of opinion on my part. It seems some on the Vine used to share my opinion:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/flash-vs-runner-625523/

Not the brightest bulb, are you? I've already conceded Zoom would crush Wally.

Tsk. I'm every bit as intelligent as you. At least I'm able to form and educated opinion based on what I've actually read...while you appear to be relying on...what? Why not show me some feats of Wally fighting while time itself is frozen. Oh, and in case you are still confused: 0 seconds, the amount of time that elapses when moving through time, is less than a zepto second or a pico second.

Well, I know neither of them are fast enough to even blink before Wally kills them, I know there's nothing stopping Wally from just dodging the attacks, vibrating through the attacks, dimension phasing through the attacks etc. etc.

Yet, you've shown me nothing thusfar.

#21 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool:

Trick question: how much time elapses when a character travels time? Hmmmm....

What the f*** are you talking about and why does it matter.

Both characters have feats of engaging in combat during frozen time.

Question; Do you mean a space of time so short the world appears frozen around them? If so, not impressive at all. If you mean time is literally frozen, then that's not a feat of speed.

Zoom II is hands down faster than everyone I mentioned.

How many times do I have to say I'm not arguing about Zoom before it penetrates your thick skull?

Surfer and Gladiator are just as fast.

Nooooo evidence fo' dat.

Tsk. I'm every bit as intelligent as you.

You sure about that? 180 IQ Cattell Scale.

Oh, and in case you are still confused: 0 seconds, the amount of time that elapses when moving through time, is less than a zepto second or a pico second.

Evidently you meant the latter. In which case it literally cannot have anything to do with speed.

Yet, you've shown me nothing thusfar.

Weeeeelll....

Flash is really fast, meaning they can't touch him.

Flash can vibrate, meaning they can't touch him.

He can enter and exit the Speed Force dimension at will, meaning...Well, all sorts of things.

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#22 Posted by fil123 (471 posts) - - Show Bio

flash can vibrate his hand (making it intangible) threw thanos or the rest of their heads, goes tangible and lobotomises them

#23 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern said:

@captnmcdeadpool:

What the f*** are you talking about and why does it matter.

Because it's relevant to the conversation. You curse a lot. Why is that? Is this a civil debate, or are you going to curse and resort to name calling the whole time?

Question; Do you mean a space of time so short the world appears frozen around them? If so, not impressive at all. If you mean time is literally frozen, then that's not a feat of speed.

I mean exactly what I say: time is frozen. Meaning, no time elapses. At all. Not even the infinitesimally small fractions of time that many fans of the Flash around here rely on to prove Wally is faster than, well, any and every one. Completely wrong.

How many times do I have to say I'm not arguing about Zoom before it penetrates your thick skull?

You're already frustrated? Wait until I break out the feats. And really, I could say the same thing about you. I've mentioned this before: moving through time is faster than anything a character muster's during a nano second or a pico second, or...whatever.

Nooooo evidence fo' dat.

There's plenty of evidence. Rather post it a million times over, if you dare, click on the link below. Review the next to last post. Take your time.

http://www.comicvine.com/silver-surfer/4005-2502/forums/silver-surfers-reaction-time-and-combat-speed-557085/#40

You sure about that? 180 IQ Cattell Scale.

Then you should be smart enough to understand what I'm telling you. And a 180? Bullcrap. You wouldn't be here if that were true. And you would understand the very simple concepts I've been trying to politely convey to you. Yet, they continue to elude you. Whether this is purposely, or you simply really are unintelligent, I haven't figured out yet.

Evidently you meant the latter. In which case it literally cannot have anything to do with speed.

Oh it can. And it does. These are comic book feats guys. Stop trying to substantiate what I say with science, when that is only a secondary consideration.

Weeeeelll....

Everyone has seen the pico second feat. Show me Wally fighting while time is frozen. Oh that's right you can't.

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Flash is really fast, meaning they can't touch him.

As is the Surfer, as the scans above clearly show. Also, notice that Surfer moving through time and engaging with his opponents during frozen time has nothing to do with blood lust. Just raw speed.

Gladiator also has a feat for fighting (Thor) during frozen time (Fantastic Four 339). Presentation indicates Gladiator is this fast. Feats support the notion.

Flash can vibrate, meaning they can't touch him.

He can. So can the Surfer, which, of course, Wally would not know, since they have never met before.

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He can enter and exit the Speed Force dimension at will, meaning...Well, all sorts of things.

Wow. Impressive. The Surfer has moved through any number of dimensions...on sheer speed alone.

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Think Wally will know right away that Norrin has enough power to destroy a planet, whether on his on, or as collateral damage, like his fight with Morg?

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Think Wally will know Norrin can teleport during combat? Or that he could literally turn Wally to stone?

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Wally wins many of his fights because of his superior speed to the VAST majority of characters he is up against in any given battle forums debate. But, clearly there are, if only a handful, characters that are just as fast, if not faster, than Wally.

#24 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: You're wasting your time. Wally's fanboys think he can beat anyone short of TOAA via Speed Steal.

That said: Vulcan, before he lost Darwin, Petra and Sway's powers.

Also, Thanos and Darkseid.

Anyone who can live without a physical body, can at least stalemate. And any of those, who are capable of large scale area-effect attacks, can not just stalemate, but defeat Wally.

Also, The Shrike would eat Wally for breakfast, then move on to handle whatever actual tasks it has for that day.

Aside from people who are just plain powerful enough to take him out, it mostly depends on the circumstances. There are people who could defeat him with prep, but not without. There are people who could defeat him if bloodlusted, but not in-character, there are people who could defeat him in specific battlefields, but not in others, etc. etc.

If the circumstances are in their favor, most people above Street-Level have a decent chance of winning.

#25 Posted by patrat18 (9022 posts) - - Show Bio

A good handful, like Spectre.

#26 Edited by Fallschirmjager (15364 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go ahead and mention Bastard! characters since I am the expert on them =P

Dark Schneider and Fallen Uriel

-They can attack infinite amount of times every instant

-They have thousands of magical force fields that ban any/all types of attacks to them. These shields have no power source (meaning they dont run out), regenerate at FTL speeds and must be broken through 1 by one. DS and Uriel have survived point-blank explosions that equal the Big Bang, completely unharmed.

-They can regenerate their bodies from a single atom.

-They can also regenerate their bodies as long as either their souls or astral matter still exist in some way. Meaning in order to kill them you have to attack on 3 different planes of existence simultaneously. (physical, spiritual, astral)

#27 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

If Wally can move at any speed that means when he does the IMP he could potentially punch with the force of the universe that should be enough to kill anybody. They probably won't be able to dodge them because too fast for them to react. Correct me if I'm wrong.

#28 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecomicpro: Interesting notion....except teir are limits to Wallys speed.

Like Hunter Zolomon.

Hypothetical punching power is one thing. What feats the character has to support said hypothesis is entirely different.

#29 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool:

Because it's relevant to the conversation. You curse a lot. Why is that? Is this a civil debate, or are you going to curse and resort to name calling the whole time?

Your answers don't match my questions, it's eerie.

You're already frustrated?

I start frustrated in Flash debates.

I've mentioned this before: moving through time is faster than anything a character muster's during a nano second or a pico second, or...whatever.

Uh, you do realize Flash is a time traveler?

There's plenty of evidence. Rather post it a million times over, if you dare, click on the link below. Review the next to last post. Take your time.

For the third time, that has nothing to do with speed.

He can. So can the Surfer

I said vibrate.

The Surfer has moved through any number of dimensions...on sheer speed alone.

You know, for the life of me I simply cannot see the word 'speed' mentioned in those scans.

Think Wally will know right away that Norrin has enough power to destroy a planet, whether on his on, or as collateral damage, like his fight with Morg?

Doesn't matter.

Think Wally will know Norrin can teleport during combat? Or that he could literally turn Wally to stone?

Still doesn't matter.

And Flash has outraced instantaneous travel before.

But, clearly there are, if only a handful, characters that are just as fast, if not faster, than Wally.

Your entire argument for that relies completely on interpreting those frozen time scans as speed feats, which is clearly not the case. Think about it. Even infinite speed would still be frozen if time itself is frozen.

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#30 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just gonna leave these here and then walk away....make what you will of them, I refuse to give an opinion on the matter. These are the best pics I can find for Wally on the Internet. Enjoy.

Here, we see Wally defeating instantaneous teleportation and Death, by running so far ahead in time, he reached the end of this universe.

#32 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

Could Thor defeat him?

#33 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

Nemesis Kid

The Fury

Doomsday

Swamp-Thing

#34 Edited by cameron83 (6748 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecomicpro said:

Could Thor defeat him?

No.

@sirmethos said:

@captnmcdeadpool: You're wasting your time. Wally's fanboys think he can beat anyone short of TOAA via Speed Steal.

That said: Vulcan, before he lost Darwin, Petra and Sway's powers.

Also, Thanos and Darkseid.

Anyone who can live without a physical body, can at least stalemate. And any of those, who are capable of large scale area-effect attacks, can not just stalemate, but defeat Wally.

Also, The Shrike would eat Wally for breakfast, then move on to handle whatever actual tasks it has for that day.

Aside from people who are just plain powerful enough to take him out, it mostly depends on the circumstances. There are people who could defeat him with prep, but not without. There are people who could defeat him if bloodlusted, but not in-character, there are people who could defeat him in specific battlefields, but not in others, etc. etc.

If the circumstances are in their favor, most people above Street-Level have a decent chance of winning.

Also this.

If they can live without a physical form or are incapable of dying or anything of the such,then they can (AT THE VERY LEAST) Stalemate.

Also,kind of obvious,but Spectre,TOAA,Zoom,Captain Cold and ANYONE that can disrupt his connection to the Speed Force,etc......

#35 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by SC (12731 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by SC (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

Any fictional character can defeat any other fictional character, anyone that gives you an answer that attempts to be definite and mutually exclusive, isn't giving an accurate answer. The nature of fiction and the nature of logic means you can try to give sound and valid answers to questions, and in fiction this will be subjective and relative. For example using examples of consistency and or intent. Consistency would be using prior examples to form a solid argument, unfortunately the nature of Marvel and DC characters, meaning hundreds or even thousands of appearances, multiple writers and artists, editors etc means gauging this consistency can be pretty tricky. Especially when you try to apply objective reasoning to subjective writing. Every single character thats gone as fast as light for example, Superman, Thor, Wonder Woman, Gladiator, they can all do infinite mass punches, not just Flash. Not only that many of them have fought each other, so have probably hit each other with impact that other characters can only equal. Naturally this isn't reflected in the comics because story always always takes precedence over objective accuracy.

Then there is the writer intent and input. Despite what many fans think and how they draw their conclusions, many writers who actually write and define character abilities and limits think otherwise. They disagree with each other or else their opinions compete, conflict, affirm, confirm all with each other,fans editors so on. So thats another context that has bearing on such questions.

Moderator
#38 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Uh...yeah Im aware Wally moves through time.

And these are comic feats were debating. NOTHING has to make sense, otherwise no feats would really be open to debate.

The fact you are conveniently ignoring, plainly for all to see....is the feats I submitted indicate no time elapsed. This would be because the character moves through time itself and has done so on numerous occasions.

That means....0 SECONDS is less than a zepto second. And I amaware of Wally beating instantaneous movement like he did with the cosmic gamblers in the Human Race arc. As I am aware that he was amped on the kinetic energy of Krakkl, five of earts faster superheroes and an ENTIRE planet. And what did that all result in?

A trans TIME feat. He moved through time like he has on numerous occasions.

Although Wally has no feats of actual combat while moving through frozen time, I equate his speed on par with Norrins. It would be silly to assume otherwise.

Just so you dont miss my point: the scans above that you are dismissing or otherwise ignoring clearly indicate the Surfer is fast enough to move through frozen time. Get it? Not even the tiniest fraction of a second elapses during a time freeze. How did Norrin do it? The same way he has ALWAYS moved through time on numerous occasions before: on sheer speed. But you would know this if you had everpicked up any Silver Surfer magazines and researched it yourself. But it has become painfully obvious you have done little to no reading up on the character.

Contain the word speed. Sheesh.

#39 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: If you could edit that to specify what exactly you're referring to with each statement...

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#40 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: youre the one with 180 IQ.

It should be pretty clear. When you have a valid argument that shows Wally is any faster in combat/reaction speed than Norrin, Im happy to talk.

#41 Posted by TheComicPro (249 posts) - - Show Bio

What about Barry Allen?

#42 Edited by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

youre the one with 180 IQ.

Yeah, sorry. You don't get psychic powers with a >140 IQ.

When you have a valid argument that shows Wally is any faster in combat/reaction speed than Norrin, Im happy to talk.

No, sorry. Doesn't work that way. Flash is the one with the superior feats, he has femto, pico, zepto and even plank time feats, while Surfer's stop dead at nanosecond. Your whole argument seemed to be based on the frozen time bollocks, which you've already conceded was a feat of time travel.

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#43 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Uh-huh.

Care to explain how a zepto second is faster than 0?

I dont have a 180 IQ but I know 0 is less than zepto second.

#44 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@hart7668: These are all impressive. You are aware that Norrin has done the same right? In his fourth volume, issue five he travels entirely outside known space time. And Wally beating instantaneous transportation was done the only way it could have been, and indicated in the self same comic it was done,...it was a trans time feat. Wally IS fast. There are some that are just as fast and some even faster.

#46 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern: Nice meme.

underscores your lack of a valid argument.

Answer my question. Whats a smaller number: a zepto second or 0

?

#47 Posted by SheenLantern (6263 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: I really don't know how my point can still escape you.

Answer my question. Whats a smaller number: a zepto second or 0

How many times do I have to explain this to you? Even infinite speed could not allow someone to move while time is frozen.

It's not

A feat

Of speed

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#48 Posted by mikex20 (2769 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer, he's faster and way more powerful.

#49 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

@hart7668: These are all impressive. You are aware that Norrin has done the same right? In his fourth volume, issue five he travels entirely outside known space time. And Wally beating instantaneous transportation was done the only way it could have been, and indicated in the self same comic it was done,...it was a trans time feat. Wally IS fast. There are some that are just as fast and some even faster.

(I know I said I'd "walk away" but I'm still not going to answer the question)

Well, if Silver Surfer did those things, good on 'im. I mean, he is a herald of Galactus.

#50 Posted by MartianManhunterIsBetterThanCyborg (2215 posts) - - Show Bio

Barry Allen.