Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

I can find no tactful way to say it; Ann Nocenti's (former writer of Daredevil and current writer of Catwoman and Katana) run on Catwoman has been bad. Many feared what she might do to the feline fatale based on her horrible handling of the Emerald Archer, and those fears were realized for most fans from Nocenti's very first issue of Catwoman and have continued to manifest throughout her run.

To read this article with images, Click Here.

Despite this, I think Nocenti has been unfairly slammed in a couple areas, and though I am certainly not trying to say that her work is good, I do think there are some roses among the thorns.

Reexamining the Zero Issue

Nocenti successfully ostracized every Catwoman fan on the planet with her Zero Issue. Given the opportunity to create an origin tale for the character, Nocenti went off the deep end in most readers' view by making Selina a normal woman who was betrayed by her boss, murdered, and then revived and given multiple lives by cats. To add insult to injury, we discovered the Selina Kyle was not really Selina Kyle at all, and that Catwoman has no memory of her life before her murder.

I agree that this is an egregious destruction and convoluted reimagining of Selina's character and history, or rather it would be egregious if anything in the above paragraph were true. However, I believe all of the above interpretations of the story are incorrect.

First, Selina was never an ordinary woman. The story makes it very clear that Selina was a thief for many years before ever taking part in the second chance program. In fact, there are several scenes where she is wearing what appears to be the classic black Catwoman costume, minus the mask, before her “murder.” While working for the second chance program, Selina goes out of her way to don cat themed slippers which could easily be taken to mean that she was alread7 acting as Catwoman while working the second chance program. It is clear that at least part of Selina's motivation for holding this position was to get inside information on her brother's location, so it is certainly not beyond reason to speculate that Selina was using the job as nothing more than a long term con.

Second, Selina was never murdered. She was shoved off a building, an awning broke her fall, and she was knocked unconscious by the physical trauma. Cats came up to her, and she reawakened, but there is nothing in this scene which implies that Selina ever died. In fact, the internal monologue continues throughout the entire scene which would suggest she was alive the whole time. I understand that this was an homage to Batman Returns which did certainly have some supernatural elements to Selina's second lease on life, but it was just on homage and nothing more. Sure, Selina says, “This is where I left the first skin of my nine lives,” but this is an expression; it does not mean Selina literally has nine lives (or eight) in the DCNU.

Third, we have the idea of Selina not actually being Selina. Now this clearly is implied by the comic, yet all we really know is that a file in a computer system claimed that Selina was an alias. This could easily be false information.

Fourth, we know Selina lost her memory for a time, but that time was over one year ago. Selina could have easily regained her memory since then.

To recap the Zero issue, a bunch of people crapped their pants about these additions to Catwoman's origin, but in reality, the events about which people complain are at least subject to interpretation, and in the case of her supposed resurrection, I would say that the evidence clearly suggests that she never even died. Regarding whether this undermines Catwoman's previous origin tales, the issue certainly can be interpreted to mean that Selina did not become Catwoman until after her near death experience, but you can theoretically work in all (well, nearly all) of Selina's past origin into the DCNU zero issue if you work of the assumption that all those other events still happened and were just was not mentioned specifically. Even if Selina were never Catwoman prior to her fall, it seems probable that Selina has the same history just without the cat ears.

In the Grand Scheme of Things

I fully believe that Nocenti has been unfairly slammed for her Catwoman Zero issue, and I wanted to give her a fair defense on the subject, but even beyond that, I think Nocenti deserves some positive consideration on the direction she has taken the character.

Look, I am extremely anti-reboot. I think it is a horrible move, and I despise almost all continuity changes just on principle. If DC has a new direction for a character in mind, then they should have the intellectual integrity to write a story that moves the character forward rather than spreading magic reboot dust across the entire company.

However, the reboot happened and creators were clearly encouraged to make new interpretations of established characters, so I'm going to work off the assumption that DC came to Nocenti and said, “You start on the Zero issue. We want something fresh and exciting to get people talking. Do whatever you want!”

What did Nocenti do? Two things.

First, Nocenti made Selina a character who tried to play by the rules. Again, there is ambiguity in the story, but judging off surface appearances, Selina was raised to be a thief, and she continued on that path until someone gave her a route to redeem herself and earn an honest living at which point she seized the opportunity. Good for Nocenti! It's much easier to root for a thief when she is somebody who tried to do things right and got kicked off the straight and narrow as opposed to rooting for someone who steals just because she is too lazy to earn things honestly.

Second, Nocenti added some mystery to Selina's past, and personally, I think that is absolutely awesome. Selina's whole life might be a lie, and for a character who was already clearly acting in a self-destructive manner as evidenced by a year's worth of stories prior to Nocenti's run, this is actually a pretty good justification for her reckless streak. How can Selina possibly act like a stable individual when she does not even know who she is? This is an excellent setup for future story arcs which could be mined for years.

Finally, as much as I am a fan of continuity, I think this might be a more interesting version of Catwoman than what we had in the DCU. I understand that Selina reached her pre-Flashpoint status through years of character development, and again, I hate to see any continuity changes, but at the end of the day, pre-DCNU Selina was basically nothing more than another leather clad hero of Gotham...except Selina occasionally stole stuff and hung out with a morally ambiguous crowd, but for the most part, not much distinguished Catwoman from the Huntress, Batman, Nightwing, Robin, or Batwoman in terms of her operation and moral alliegance. Now, Selina is back to being a thief, and her series fully embraces the adventure element of her stories. She may occasionally do good, but she is primarily out for herself, and that adds significant diversity to the Batman universe.

On Nocenti

All that being said, these good points of Nocenti's writing do not excuse the stilted dialogue, the incomprehensible actions scenes, the throwaway supporting characters, the pointless crossovers, the scenes added just to showcase Selina's junk, the occasional cessation of all sense of physics, time, and space, the lack of focus in narrative structure, the plot convenient scenarios and events, and the lack of weight to any of Selina's actions.

By the Numbers

As long as I've been babbling on the series for this long, let's go ahead and take a look at how Catwoman is doing in rating and sales.

In terms of ratings, (based on ComicVine's average user ratings) Nocenti's series has been horribly received throughout all five issues. The highest rated comic was issue 13, the first story of the Death of the Family arc, which managed to score a 3.0/5.0 which really is not very good, but ever since that issue, the series has been received ever worse reaching as low as 2.2.

In terms of sales, Catwoman remains strong. The last issue before Nocenti took over was Catwoman #12 which sold 31,000 copies and was in 25th place out of the 52. The zero issue increased sales to 39,000, but Zero month sales were stronger in general for DC, so Catwoman remained in 25 position. Things more or less remained the same for issue 13 which was the first part of the Joker crossover yet did not greatly increase sales. That changed in issue fourteen when sales skyrocketed to 64,000 and Catwoman actually finished in 8 place for DC. Things settled back down to earth after the Death of the Family crossover with Catwoman averaging 35,000 and 22 place for the next two months. It is worth mentioning that 15 and 16 were crossovers with The Black Diamond Probability story arc, so Nocenti has never really been challenged to sell the book just on the quality of her writing.

Conclusion

Catwoman has been a bad book under Nocenti's run, yet for some reason it sells well. Despite the poor quality though, I do think all writer should be given a fair shot, and Nocenti has had some concepts in her stories. Sadly, the bad outweighs the good.

#1 Posted by akbogert (3213 posts) - - Show Bio

Fascinating read, for someone who only read the first three issues (1-3) of this series and the DotF tie-ins and thus is unfamiliar with most of what you're talking about. I now feel like going back and reading this zero issue just to see if I can understand why people seem to have gotten an impression so solidly from things which you posit are vague and debatable. Note: your "click here" isn't a link, at least it wasn't when I started reading this.

#2 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

I seem to be in a bit of a minority, but I've actually liked her issues so far. They've not been incredible, but they're not, bad in my opinion.

As you said, "Nocenti has never really been challenged to sell the book just on the quality of her writing." because of the tie-ins. I think if she was required to write the tie-ins, and people didn't like them, then it's probably not fair to judge her too harshly for having to start writing Catwoman with not full as much control over what she could do. I think truly judging her work as a Catwoman writer should be reserved for when the next arc is complete, just to see what she can do with a longer story, rather than having to just write short tie-ins.

I'll keep buying it for now. If it does turn out to be bad I'll maybe drop it, but only after giving it a proper chance.

#3 Edited by HexThis (886 posts) - - Show Bio

Nocenti is a hard pill for me to swallow. I will say though that in situations like these it is important to note that Nocenti isn't solely responsible, every issue of every comic goes through an editor as well. Nocenti's story, reigned in and tweaked, would've been fine but it seems clear to me that someone up at DC didn't read this and go "Oh my god, as if the cover wasn't already controversial enough, the fans will despise this!" when she submitted it and they really should've. She's a good writer but she definitely needed more editorial support and I think Catwoman overall needs more editorial support as well. Someone needs to take a good, hard look at what people want in a Catwoman storyline.

Personally, though I loved Batman Returns, it happened 20 years ago. Since then, Catwoman has gone through an entirely different cycle as an icon. Younger people now remember a Catwoman from the animated series who was damaged but elegantly composed, juvenile but slick, impulsive but calculating too. It culminated in the Brubaker series which really re-defined Catwoman and gave her character a lot more history to work with. To level all that down again and cop it up to a lie is crazy destructive.

But you know what? There was plenty of backlash with issue 0 and since comics retcon all the time, there is a case to be made for seeing it through just a little while longer.

#4 Posted by dondave (35935 posts) - - Show Bio

Agree with everything the OP said

#5 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting article as always

@BatWatch said:

I can find no tactful way to say it; Ann Nocenti's (former writer of Daredevil and current writer of Catwoman and Katana) run on Catwoman has been bad. Many feared what she might do to the feline fatale based on her horrible handling of the Emerald Archer, and those fears were realized for most fans from Nocenti's very first issue of Catwoman and have continued to manifest throughout her run.

To read this article with images, Click Here.

I click and click but nothing happens

First, Nocenti made Selina a character who tried to play by the rules. Again, there is ambiguity in the story, but judging off surface appearances, Selina was raised to be a thief, and she continued on that path until someone gave her a route to redeem herself and earn an honest living at which point she seized the opportunity. Good for Nocenti! It's much easier to root for a thief when she is somebody who tried to do things right and got kicked off the straight and narrow as opposed to rooting for someone who steals just because she is too lazy to earn things honestly.

but the thing is, is this Nocenti's doing?

cause it might as well be editorialy mandated on the fact that she is joining John's JLA, in such case we

Second, Nocenti added some mystery to Selina's past, and personally, I think that is absolutely awesome. Selina's whole life might be a lie, and for a character who was already clearly acting in a self-destructive manner as evidenced by a year's worth of stories prior to Nocenti's run, this is actually a pretty good justification for her reckless streak. How can Selina possibly act like a stable individual when she does not even know who she is? This is an excellent setup for future story arcs which could be mined for years.

From my point of view the "everything that you know is a lie" is a very very dangerous thing to do and I have seen it a great number of times and very few of those times had worked.

I think the best example of this exact practice is Saga of the Swamp Thing #21 by Alan Moore, which many including myself consider the best single comic ever created

But with Catwoman 0, the execution is so bad that it completely undermine the entire point of the character rather than give her a new dimension or use, and its not even the first time that this exact same thing has been done to Catwoman, in Catwoman: When in Rome, a sidestory to Dark Victory, Selina discovers that she is actualy the bastard daughter of Carmine Falcone, sadly this never goes anywhere but at least it was better executed

which brings me to my point, the fact that this can be used as setup doesnt mean anything, it just opens a classic Quest plot in which she looks for her real identity but what is the point of actually looking for that anyways?

with both "Anatomy Lesson" and "When in Rome" the character discovers a truth about itself that opens a new area to be explored on this character

what can be explored with this? it just tells us who she is not, not who she can be.

pre-DCNU Selina was basically nothing more than another leather clad hero of Gotham...except Selina occasionally stole stuff and hung out with a morally ambiguous crowd, but for the most part, not much distinguished Catwoman from the Huntress, Batman, Nightwing, Robin, or Batwoman in terms of her operation and moral alliegance. Now, Selina is back to being a thief, and her series fully embraces the adventure element of her stories. She may occasionally do good, but she is primarily out for herself, and that adds significant diversity to the Batman universe.

...

not sure what is your point here

well before the new 52 she was in Gotham Sirens which was kind of an anti-hero team book, they were still criminals but did good deeds once in a while and she hasnt really been a villain in years

It is worth mentioning that 15 and 16 were crossovers with The Black Diamond Probability story arc, so Nocenti has never really been challenged to sell the book just on the quality of her writing.

thats a great point and i agree but you can also make the same point for pretty much all the batman titles with few exceptions, and yet in comics like Nighting and B&R that has had a lot of crossovers i can still judge it for those few issues that didnt had a crossovers, in this case what we are left with is only chp 0

because what else is left?

we wont even have a good grasp of Nocenti's take on Catwoman alone now that the book is tieing with JLA in the next few issue and in many cases i see a lot of struggle between the plots of nocenti and what the editorial wants.

#6 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm lost...
 
I started reading Cat Woman at the beginning of the New 52...  When did Nocenti come into play?

#7 Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

Fascinating read, for someone who only read the first three issues (1-3) of this series and the DotF tie-ins and thus is unfamiliar with most of what you're talking about. I now feel like going back and reading this zero issue just to see if I can understand why people seem to have gotten an impression so solidly from things which you posit are vague and debatable. Note: your "click here" isn't a link, at least it wasn't when I started reading this.

Whoops! I keep on forgetting to embed links both here and on BatWatch. I should probably double check myself every time, but it takes so much time as is. Anyway, the link is fixed now.

I actually thought the Zero issue was the best think Nocenti has written for Catwoman. I still would not accuse it of being good, but it was okay. If you see it in a trade or something, its worth scanning over in the store just to know the character's current origin.

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

I seem to be in a bit of a minority, but I've actually liked her issues so far. They've not been incredible, but they're not, bad in my opinion.

As you said, "Nocenti has never really been challenged to sell the book just on the quality of her writing." because of the tie-ins. I think if she was required to write the tie-ins, and people didn't like them, then it's probably not fair to judge her too harshly for having to start writing Catwoman with not full as much control over what she could do. I think truly judging her work as a Catwoman writer should be reserved for when the next arc is complete, just to see what she can do with a longer story, rather than having to just write short tie-ins.

I'll keep buying it for now. If it does turn out to be bad I'll maybe drop it, but only after giving it a proper chance.

If you enjoy her work, more power to you. There is certainly no reason for you to stop following it just because I and many othersneed to think it is bad.

You bring up a fair point that Nocenti has not had a chance to tell a Catwoman story without external influence, so this next arc should give us a clearer vision of Nocenti's writing of the character. At the same time, incorporating tie ins is part and parcel of writing comic books, so if you can't do it well, that still is pretty damning of your writing ability. Also, I'm pretty sure all the tie ins except for those involving the family members at Joker's dinner table were voluntary because I have heard some writers say they chose to be part of the tie in. I forget which writers said they wanted in on the action, but it does appear as if some chose to keep away since Batwoman, Talon, The Dark Knight, and Batman Incorporated all passed on the crossover. Morrison probably has the pull to countermand a mandated cross over, but I do not think any of those other creative teams could have dodged it.

@HexThis said:

Nocenti is a hard pill for me to swallow. I will say though that in situations like these it is important to note that Nocenti isn't solely responsible, every issue of every comic goes through an editor as well. Nocenti's story, reigned in and tweaked, would've been fine but it seems clear to me that someone up at DC didn't read this and go "Oh my god, as if the cover wasn't already controversial enough, the fans will despise this!" when she submitted it and they really should've. She's a good writer but she definitely needed more editorial support and I think Catwoman overall needs more editorial support as well. Someone needs to take a good, hard look at what people want in a Catwoman storyline.

Personally, though I loved Batman Returns, it happened 20 years ago. Since then, Catwoman has gone through an entirely different cycle as an icon. Younger people now remember a Catwoman from the animated series who was damaged but elegantly composed, juvenile but slick, impulsive but calculating too. It culminated in the Brubaker series which really re-defined Catwoman and gave her character a lot more history to work with. To level all that down again and cop it up to a lie is crazy destructive.

But you know what? There was plenty of backlash with issue 0 and since comics retcon all the time, there is a case to be made for seeing it through just a little while longer.

Good thoughts all around. You are a longer term comic fan, aren't you? (grins)

You are absolutely right that comics retcon all the time. For instance, Selina was still a whore in her early years right before she got her own series at which point they eliminated that origin tale for something less...hoeish. The same thing could easily be done with Selina's current origin. Also, as I pointed out, they left enough wiggle room in the Zero issue that most of Catwoman's older origin could still be accurate.

I agree that the reboot in general was lazy and crazy destructive.

I also have my reservations about the DC editorial staff, but I guess it is a double edged sword. After all, we don't want editors stifling all the creativity from the writers, but at the same time, things like Tim and Dick's destroyed origins and "Batgirl and the Super Bag" really make me wonder if DC editors are even awake.

@dondave said:

Agree with everything the OP said

Gracias, Don. You can read more of my commentaries here: http://batwatch.net/commentary/

@arnoldoaad:

(embarrassed) Yeah, I goofed up the link again. I do that way too much. It's fixed now.

It looks like part of your comment regarding Johns' JLA was cut off. What were you saying? As far as was it all Nocenti's idea, I don't know, but I'm going to give her the credit unless I have reason to believe she does not deserve it.

Interesting ideas about Selina's past only showing who she is and not who she can be. I'll have to give that some consideration, but going off my initial thoughts, I think her discovering her origin could either be something frivolous and empty or something incredibly poignant and character building. It all depends in the execution. I'm not betting on Nocenti to deliver, but I am willing to give her credit for creating some intrigue. If she bundles it later, I'll condemn her at that point.

That issue of Swamp Thing. That wouldn't happen to be the issue where Alec finds out he is not actually Alec at all, would it? If it is not, what does happen in that issue?

My point regarding pre-Flashpoint Selina vs. current Selina is that pre-Flashpoint Selina had become very similar to the rest of the Bat Clan whereas current Selina is much more of a villain. I did not read Sirens, (though it is in the pile and I am eager to get to that one) but I still get the impression that Catwoman was basically a hero. Now, she is basically a villain, and I find that more interesting than yet another heroic member of the Bat Family. I'm actually a bit torn on this issue, but again, I'm playing Devils advocate.

Yeah, V above mentioned that we will get to see Nocenti's own take on the character this month, and I agreed, but even as I was agreeing, I was thinking about the fact that the next few months certainly seem to be tying in to JLA. Even zero issue was an editorial mandate. All other Bat books have had at least one month since zero to do their own thing though, so...well, whatever. I don't have much hope for Nocenti's writing abilities apart from crossovers anyway, but it will be interesting to see if Nocenti continues to keep good sales once the JLA boost levels out.

@Timandm said:

I'm lost... I started reading Cat Woman at the beginning of the New 52... When did Nocenti come into play?

Oh, Nocenti took the reigns at the Zero issue. I'm surprised you did not notice because the tone of the writing changed considerably. Then again, I did not pay much attention to writers before I started BatWatch, so I guess I can see overlooking those sorts of things. Before Nocenti...let me look it up real fast. Judd Winick (former writer for Green Arrow) was the guy who wrote issues 1-12.

#8 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

I seem to be in a bit of a minority, but I've actually liked her issues so far. They've not been incredible, but they're not, bad in my opinion.

As you said, "Nocenti has never really been challenged to sell the book just on the quality of her writing." because of the tie-ins. I think if she was required to write the tie-ins, and people didn't like them, then it's probably not fair to judge her too harshly for having to start writing Catwoman with not full as much control over what she could do. I think truly judging her work as a Catwoman writer should be reserved for when the next arc is complete, just to see what she can do with a longer story, rather than having to just write short tie-ins.

I'll keep buying it for now. If it does turn out to be bad I'll maybe drop it, but only after giving it a proper chance.

If you enjoy her work, more power to you. There is certainly no reason for you to stop following it just because I and many othersneed to think it is bad.

You bring up a fair point that Nocenti has not had a chance to tell a Catwoman story without external influence, so this next arc should give us a clearer vision of Nocenti's writing of the character. At the same time, incorporating tie ins is part and parcel of writing comic books, so if you can't do it well, that still is pretty damning of your writing ability. Also, I'm pretty sure all the tie ins except for those involving the family members at Joker's dinner table were voluntary because I have heard some writers say they chose to be part of the tie in. I forget which writers said they wanted in on the action, but it does appear as if some chose to keep away since Batwoman, Talon, The Dark Knight, and Batman Incorporated all passed on the crossover. Morrison probably has the pull to countermand a mandated cross over, but I do not think any of those other creative teams could have dodged it.

You could be right about it being voluntary, I'll see what I can find one the subject. I can't think of any reason why Batwoman or Talon would have been involved, but The Dark Knight seems like it could've been, so maybe it was voluntary.

#9 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

@arnoldoaad:

It looks like part of your comment regarding Johns' JLA was cut off. What were you saying? As far as was it all Nocenti's idea, I don't know, but I'm going to give her the credit unless I have reason to believe she does not deserve it.

yeah, for some reason sometimes i press undo and it deletes my entire comment(Vine needs to fix that among others), and it happen with my last comment so i had to rewrote

my point is this, you are giving nocenti the credit for doing the changes of focus of Catwoman when its very likely that it was the editorial because of what Johns had planned on doing with her on JLA, it makes more sense than Johns adding Catwoman because of the changes that Nocenti came up with.

Interesting ideas about Selina's past only showing who she is and not who she can be. I'll have to give that some consideration, but going off my initial thoughts, I think her discovering her origin could either be something frivolous and empty or something incredibly poignant and character building. It all depends in the execution. I'm not betting on Nocenti to deliver, but I am willing to give her credit for creating some intrigue. If she bundles it later, I'll condemn her at that point.

I dont think is going to work either because not only she havent deliver at all iwith the character but also because of the way chp 0 was executed it kind of annuls its own premise

we now know more than the protagonist so we are going to see a phase in which Catwoman will discover exactly what we already know, Why the hell do it like that?

That issue of Swamp Thing. That wouldn't happen to be the issue where Alec finds out he is not actually Alec at all, would it? If it is not, what does happen in that issue?

yeah its exactly that

My point regarding pre-Flashpoint Selina vs. current Selina is that pre-Flashpoint Selina had become very similar to the rest of the Bat Clan whereas current Selina is much more of a villain. I did not read Sirens, (though it is in the pile and I am eager to get to that one) but I still get the impression that Catwoman was basically a hero. Now, she is basically a villain, and I find that more interesting than yet another heroic member of the Bat Family. I'm actually a bit torn on this issue, but again, I'm playing Devils advocate.

but take into consideration that she is joining JLA here, and also that is not like she was all goody goody before, much less that now she is a baddy

in fact that was the idea of the DotF tie-in that she should be a thief and stick to that

and even if you are just focusing in that she being a thief is a positive you need to realize that she has always been a thief and that there had been moments when she is much of a villain that are just way more interesting than this.

#10 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio
@BatWatch: Oh, Nocenti took the reigns at the Zero issue. I'm surprised you did not notice because the tone of the writing changed considerably. Then again, I did not pay much attention to writers before I started BatWatch, so I guess I can see overlooking those sorts of things. Before Nocenti...let me look it up real fast. Judd Winick (former writer for Green Arrow) was the guy who wrote issues 1-12.
 
THAT explains it.  I've only read up to issue 12 so far.   13 - 16 are RIGHT over there (pointing) waiting for me...
#11 Posted by chipsnopotatoes (328 posts) - - Show Bio

Mixed feelings about Nocenti. On one hand, I enjoy her crazy wacky stories a lot, most especially her throw away characters because she actually writes them with interesting personalities. On the other hand, her Selina is just a big NO. Characterization and voice/dialogue is just totally off. Goofy character with awful taste in clothes who's way too chatty and comes across as a horny teenager.

It's even more apparent how much the Bat Office has fucked up the character now that we see a much smarter, competent, sexy Selina in just 3 pages of JLA. I'm guessing this will lead to a revelation that the Catwoman in her own book is Bizarro Selina and there's a real one lurking around in the JLA.

Overall, I'll tolerate Nocenti since I already have a better alternative in JLA.

#12 Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

@chipsnopotatoes said:

Mixed feelings about Nocenti. On one hand, I enjoy her crazy wacky stories a lot, most especially her throw away characters because she actually writes them with interesting personalities. On the other hand, her Selina is just a big NO. Characterization and voice/dialogue is just totally off. Goofy character with awful taste in clothes who's way too chatty and comes across as a horny teenager.

It's even more apparent how much the Bat Office has fucked up the character now that we see a much smarter, competent, sexy Selina in just 3 pages of JLA. I'm guessing this will lead to a revelation that the Catwoman in her own book is Bizarro Selina and there's a real one lurking around in the JLA.

Overall, I'll tolerate Nocenti since I already have a better alternative in JLA.

Yeah, I have not had the chance to read JLA yet. I've heard good things.

By the way, I think the F bomb is prohibidibabado on ComicVine though mods are only likely to enforce it if you are saying it a lot or causing trouble.

It would be really comical if DC screwed up a character so badly that they decided to get out of it by making him a clone or evil twin or something. I wouldn't mind DCNU Red Robin being a Bizzaro. Sheesh. They wrecked Tim.

I also have some sympathy for the silly adventure elements of Nocenti's stories. Every once and awhile, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm feeling this. It's silly, but it's fun, but then the dialogue slaps you in the face like a wet salami, and something so unforgivably stupid happens that your head explodes, so yeah. She is definitely too chatty. If I could change one thing about Nocenti's Selina, that would be it.

#13 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

@chipsnopotatoes said:

Mixed feelings about Nocenti. On one hand, I enjoy her crazy wacky stories a lot, most especially her throw away characters because she actually writes them with interesting personalities. On the other hand, her Selina is just a big NO. Characterization and voice/dialogue is just totally off. Goofy character with awful taste in clothes who's way too chatty and comes across as a horny teenager.

It's even more apparent how much the Bat Office has fucked up the character now that we see a much smarter, competent, sexy Selina in just 3 pages of JLA. I'm guessing this will lead to a revelation that the Catwoman in her own book is Bizarro Selina and there's a real one lurking around in the JLA.

Overall, I'll tolerate Nocenti since I already have a better alternative in JLA.

Yeah, I have not had the chance to read JLA yet. I've heard good things.

By the way, I think the F bomb is prohibidibabado on ComicVine though mods are only likely to enforce it if you are saying it a lot or causing trouble.

It would be really comical if DC screwed up a character so badly that they decided to get out of it by making him a clone or evil twin or something. I wouldn't mind DCNU Red Robin being a Bizzaro. Sheesh. They wrecked Tim.

I also have some sympathy for the silly adventure elements of Nocenti's stories. Every once and awhile, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm feeling this. It's silly, but it's fun, but then the dialogue slaps you in the face like a wet salami, and something so unforgivably stupid happens that your head explodes, so yeah. She is definitely too chatty. If I could change one thing about Nocenti's Selina, that would be it.

Harley Quinn seems to be a popular choice to be revealed as a clone. Bizarley Quinn would work pretty well as a name if that's what they decided to do.

#14 Posted by chipsnopotatoes (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch: JLA is pretty good. I'm definitely intrigued at the idea of a covert ops book. It's a direction I've wanted for Selina since way back when the DC Message Boards were still alive and I remember discussing it with another Catwoman fan there. I've always wanted to see her interact with Waller.

Have you reviewed Catwoman 17? It's actually pretty hilarious if you ignore Selina's god awful wardrobe and dialogue.

#15 Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose:

(chuckles) I would not be too disappointed to see that change. A bizzaro Harley Quinn actually seems appropriate somehow.

I've only read DCNU Harley Quinn in the DotF crossover. I know they changed her origin. Other than that and her costume, have they screwed her up?

@chipsnopotatoes said:

@BatWatch: JLA is pretty good. I'm definitely intrigued at the idea of a covert ops book. It's a direction I've wanted for Selina since way back when the DC Message Boards were still alive and I remember discussing it with another Catwoman fan there. I've always wanted to see her interact with Waller.

Have you reviewed Catwoman 17? It's actually pretty hilarious if you ignore Selina's god awful wardrobe and dialogue.

Yeah, I did. I've got a review of it right Here if you're interested. I actually thought it was a better issue too. If it was always this quality, I could see it as a good guilty pleasure book.

I can't see Selina sticking with the team. How has Waller or whoever coerced her?

#16 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose:

(chuckles) I would not be too disappointed to see that change. A bizzaro Harley Quinn actually seems appropriate somehow.

I've only read DCNU Harley Quinn in the DotF crossover. I know they changed her origin. Other than that and her costume, have they screwed her up?

I've only read the first seven issues, and I really didn't like how she was portrayed. She's way too sexualised in her personality, including having sex with Deadshot, when an issue or two later, it's shown that's she's still very much obsessed with The Joker, which doesn't seem to make sense to me.

She just seems so different, it's like it's not even the same person. It's like somebody trying to be a bit like her. I can't even imagine a classic Harley voice in my mind when reading her. :/

#17 Posted by BatWatch (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

Too bad. I was...okay with the Suicide Squad DotF crossover, but it was definitely...not perfect.

#18 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2226 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually wasn't hugely offended by the details of her zero issue retcon; it's just that the entire issue was so horrendously written. I could barely follow what the hell kind of story she was trying to tell. I'm of a weird opinion when it comes to Nocenti. I believe she has genuine potential, most of her writing demonstrates an innate sense of creativity and good ideas; she's just SO BAD at the actual writing process. The pacing swings wildly all over the place and ruins what good she set out to do so thoroughly that you need an expert excavation crew just to see the little bit of good that shines through.