#1 Edited by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio

Morbius's Comic Vineyard's got me really excited to get more involved in the community.  I wanted to start by getting a small list going to see how it works.  Since I mainly collect trades now, I wanted to list those, so I started with the Walking Dead.  I found the Trade Collection page (at least that's what I'm calling it?), and it listed the trades themselves as issues, which was perfect, because that's what I own, not the individual comics: 
 
http://www.comicvine.com/the-walking-dead/49-30345/  
 
So then I went looking for the Fables one, but I couldn't find it.  Just the regular Comic Collection page:  
 
 http://www.comicvine.com/fables/49-9723/ 
  
I went back and looked, and sure enough, there was a similar page for the Walking Dead comic issues:  
 
http://www.comicvine.com/the-walking-dead/49-18166/    
 
I then noticed that there are indeed individual entries for each individual Fables trade, but not in a collected form.  So I'm guess what I'm wondering is, what determines how the trades/comics are organized?  I guess I'll submit a creation of a Fables trade collection page and see what happens?

#2 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: Trades are done singularly, for the most part.  
 
Here are examples of how trades are usually done: 
Uncanny X-Men: Sisterhood 
Exiles: Down the Rabbit Hole 
Green Lantern: Secret Origin 
 
In rare cases where the trades don't have names and are storylines or an ongoing compiled this is how they are done: 
52 (Volumes 1-4 are all done together) 
New X-Men: Ultimate Collection 
Exiles: Ultimate Collection 
 
Here are examples of how trades should NOT be done: 
Amazing Spider-Man TPB 
Ultimate Fantastic Four TPB 
Classic Wolverine TPB
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#3 Posted by jloneblackheart (5506 posts) - - Show Bio

Volumes are cataloged by their individual indicias ( the print inside the cover that shows the actual title of the book with publish date and legal info). Most trades aren't numbered like a comic volume. They have their own title, usually found on the cover.

I assure you the Fables trades are cataloged correctly since Aztek is nuts for Vertigo.

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#4 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart said:

" Volumes are cataloged by their individual indicias ( the print inside the cover that shows the actual title of the book with publish date and legal info). Most trades aren't numbered like a comic volume. They have their own title, usually found on the cover. I assure you the Fables trades are cataloged correctly since Aztek is nuts for Vertigo. "

Yep, that all makes sense, and I'm sure they are. :)  I was just curious, because I liked how the Walking Dead has two volume entries, one for the individual issues, and one for the TPBs, which aligns them very nicely in the Comic Vineyard: 
 
http://www.disobey.com/detergent/code/comic-vineyard/renders/skywarpgold-20657-default.html  
 
So, for the Fables TPBs, I'd have to add each individual trade volume, and they'd be separated, unless they had a collected volume entry like the Walking Dead ones do.   
 
I'm not trying to buck the system, I know I'm new, just lookin' to make my collection as simple as possible :) 
 
Thanks guys! 
#5 Posted by jloneblackheart (5506 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: There's nothing to buck. We catalog them the way any publisher does. Check this thread for an example of an indicia. The Comic Vineyard is still in its beginning stages and is user created. I don't know if he's taken into account how trades are usually cataloged, as I can see what you are saying with it looking prettier if they were grouped together. I say you make a suggestion in his thread to see if he can eventually work out something with his programming.  
 
@The Dark Huntress said:

 
Here are examples of how trades should NOT be done: 
Amazing Spider-Man TPB 
Ultimate Fantastic Four TPB 
Classic Wolverine TPB "
 
I've made this mistake before, but I fixed them. More stuff for my list....
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#6 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart: I've been going through all the TPB pages per request of Aztek and converting them. 
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#7 Posted by jloneblackheart (5506 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: You RULE!! :)
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#8 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart: It's more work than I thought it was going to be. A ton of them don't have creator credits so I've been having to go to the actual issue pages, but I've surpassed my old account with everything except points. And as a reader of mainly trades, this is actually work that I for the most part enjoy. 
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#9 Edited by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart: Thanks!  And good point!  I'll definitely mention it in Morbius's thread. 
 
@The Dark Huntress: Wow, that sounds pretty difficult!  Thanks for the help and pointers. 
 
 
EDIT: Yep, Morbius already suggested adding a :group command.  I think that would do it!  Thanks again for the clarifications!
#10 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: It's not too hard once you get the hang of it. ^_^ And I'm always happy to help.
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#11 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: Hehe, sweet!  I can definitely see how fun it can be too! :)
#12 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: If you talk to anybody with a pretty high point count they will tell you that editing can become quite addicting. 
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#13 Posted by Morbus (63 posts) - - Show Bio

Morbus, not Morbius. /me coughs ;)

#14 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart said:
"  I assure you the Fables trades are cataloged correctly since Aztek is nuts for Vertigo. "
 
Fables: The Dark Ages !!!!!!
 
Also, sometimes I wonder about The Walking Dead, I don't own any of the trades myself (yet) so I don't know what it says on their indicia but I let it slide because another site (that usually) has the indicia right just has them filed as "The Walking Dead" while they too have things like the Fables trades as individual volumes.
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#15 Posted by Morbus (63 posts) - - Show Bio

I tend to think The Walking Dead trades (the ones in question, at least; I don't have the Omnibus editions) are listed correctly: their indicia states "The Walking Dead, Vol. 4: The Heart's Desire". I also tend to think that the Fable trades are indexed both correctly AND incorrectly. From a purely librarian tech standpoint, the Fable TPBs are indexed correctly, per their indicia. From a purely "libraries are meant to serve the people first, the tech last", it's pretty clear that the books ARE meant to be read and "stored" in a standard order, as indicated by the numbers on their spines (and, for Fables: Legends in Exile, the number was even included on the front cover, listing it as "Book 1").

#16 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morbus: D'oh! Sorry Morbus!! 
 
@aztek the lost: You guys have got me pretty interested in indicia now!  I actually can't wait to check them out when I get back from my trip, lol!
#17 Posted by jloneblackheart (5506 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morbus: Based on what you say, the Walking Dead are indexed incorrectly as far as out cataloging system goes. 
 
We don't include volume numbers in the heading titles. This is usually included in the volume description. All indicias include a volume number. 
 
Thus,   The Walking Dead, Vol. 4: The Heart's Desire should not be #4 in a Walking Dead volume, it should be #1 in a volume titled The Walking Dead: The Heart's Desire. 
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#18 Edited by Morbus (63 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart: That *barely* makes sense to me. The only way I can "accept" that (and I'll have to, clearly, if that's Comic Vine's policy) is that Comic Vine is blindly (and I'd argue, incorrectly) applying a serial format (magazines, comic books, where a second subcategory of "issue" exists, making "title + volume" the primary collection) to a book format (where no secondary subcategory exists, making "title", not volume, the collection).
#19 Posted by jloneblackheart (5506 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morbus said:

" applying a serial format (magazines, comic books, where a second subcategory of "issue" exists, making "title + volume" the primary collection)  "

A comic volume has a volume number, but also has an issue number.  
 

" a book format (where no secondary subcategory exists, making "title", not volume, the collection). "

The title and the volume are considered, but a trade is not numbered, except by volume. If they were to be the same volume, which is how everything here is categorized, then they would be numbered. The example you gave would be The Walking Dead, Vol 4: The Heart's Desire #4, Month Year..... But then others would have to have the same volume number for them to be the same volume. That is the purpose of volume numbers.   
 
The Walking Dead, Vol 4: The Heart's Desire  is the only "issue" with this title and the only one in the volume. Libraries are organized by subject, subcategory, then title. Thus, all the Walking Dead trades would go in order on the shelves. We don't have shelves. 
  
You are correct that comics and magazines are serial format and trades are book format, but everything here is organized by title and volume.  
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#20 Edited by Morbus (63 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart said:  

The title and the volume are considered, but a trade is not numbered, except by volume.  

We agree. None of the Batman TPBs are numbered, so they have no central collection. There's no particular "order" that you read them in, and plenty of TPBs don't even do sequential issue inclusion. The Walking Dead and Fables, however, are indicated, by the publisher, with a reading order, a Volume. This use of "volume" is NOT the same as a comic book's "volume" (where a comic book's "volume" traditionally indicates a reboot or Major Event that necessitates starting over at issue 1). Comic Vine's policy is to treat the use of "Volume" specifically as defined via a serial format, for everything. Fine. I may argue with policy, but I don't tend to ignore it (I'd rather have standardized "Broken" data than anarchic My Way Your Way, you see).  

Libraries are organized by subject, subcategory, then title. Thus, all the Walking Dead trades would go in order on the shelves. We don't have shelves.  

Having a history of library tech, this is the first time I've heard someone argue that a digital collection is *worse* than a brick-and-mortar equivalent. I'll be sure to tell all the librarian tech people who are moving their catalogs to Internet tech to give up, and that their *praise and hope* of "no shelves!" is misplaced. 
 
I kid. 
 
(To reiterate: I [now] understand CV's policy, still don't agree with it, but I won't ignore or subvert it. I dissent herein solely theoretically.)
#21 Posted by jloneblackheart (5506 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morbus: While the story itself goes in order, the trades are broken up by story arc. This is intentionally done so you don't have to read them in order, and you can pick up a trade and read a self contained story.  
 
I don't believe that I said a digital collection is better or worse than a physical institution. I'm saying the best we can do it link and this is how our system is designed. If you search a library database are they going to give you one volume with multiple issues? No. They would be individual books, although their labeling system would include the volume numbers. It's the same way as here, except we "don't have the shelves" were you could see them next to each other to know that they go in a specific order. But, if you search 'Walking Dead", all the trades would show up.  
 
Our database is designed for comics with numbers. A library system is designed for books. We can't even add an issue without a number. Putting all the trades in the same volume misrepresents the title of the book and increases the chances of duplicates being added to the database.  
 
I would love for a better system of connecting trades with the issues they reprint or a trade collection function, and I hope that one day we get something. Until then, we have to do the best we can with what we have and try to keep everything as true to their title as possible. As for now, we generally try to include a list of trades on the main volume description with links.  
 
It's a precedent that has already been set, long before my time, and even if we were to change it to something else it would require an INCREDIBLE amount of work.  I'm sure you will be able to come up with something to organize your comic collection VineYard project better as far as trades go. It already looks great and I'm sure you have a long way to go, but the way we categorize the trades is already established and I never hold my breath for new site features, especially where the wiki is involved. . 
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#22 Posted by Morbus (63 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart said:
"@Morbus: While the story itself goes in order, the trades are broken up by story arc. This is intentionally done so you don't have to read them in order, and you can pick up a trade and read a self contained story.  
I'll agree with unnumbered trades. But no one in the book world will stare at a 
Volume 3 and say "ah! I can read this one without reading Volume 2 and 1!" 
(At this point, though, I'd say we're responding Because We Can, so I'll keep it brief.)
I'm sure you will be able to come up with something to organize your comic collection VineYard project better as far as trades go. It already looks great and I'm sure you have a long way to go, but the way we categorize the trades is already established and I never hold my breath for new site features, especially where the wiki is involved. .  "
At this point, I've got a todo to see if I can find out a) if a volume is a trade via the API and b) if so, what the source comic is, via the API. If I can find both of those, then I might be able to source them all together into one heading ("Batman trades", "Walking Dead trades", etc.). I'm not holding my breath though, in which case, the future functionality of the "group" key (mentioned in this thread earlier) will satisfy collecting trades into categories on an entirely optional level. That's probably a few weeks away. 
 
Speaking of which, what IS the status on "new site features"? Being two weeks new, I've no idea. I know the quest stuff is this-year-new, but are there regular cycles or is it just a potluck when it comes to New Functionality vs. New Content?
#23 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morbus: I know I missed the discussion but just to throw this out there, some Vertigo trades for example were originally printed without a Vol. # on the covers and it was only years later they applied it when they had the entire series in print which proves they do think each trade can be read on its own...jumping in at a random trade is no different from jumping onto an ongoing title at the current issue...also, if Fables Vol. 14: Witches coming out next tomorrow
 
also, some Vol. 1's are actually not the beginning of a story and yet you don't have to read anything prior to enjoy them (Doom Patrol: Crawling from the Wreckage and Saga of the Swamp Thing as examples) 
 
going by indicia makes sense for the purpose of indexing comics, then there's no argument what something should be titled and you don't have people adding duplicate issues all the time
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#24 Posted by cbishop (7422 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost: I totally understand what you're saying about going by the indicia listing, but it makes the wiki extremely inconvenient.  Shouldn't there be a way to direct multiple searches to the same page, instead?  For example, if I search "Fables: Animal Farm," or "Fables: Wolves," the search still takes me to the "Fables TPB" page.  I'm not sure how the Comic Vine search bar differs from a search engine, but a search engine could do that.  If it worked that way, it would keep people from thinking the title doesn't exist onsite, and hopefully keep dupe pages from being created.  Also, it would cut down the page count clutter... unless CV is just out to create as many pages as possible, but having to go to a volume page and then an issue page to view each individual TPB is time consuming, tedious, and a touch ridiculous. 

For some unnumbered TPB's, like a TPB for a mini-series, it would make sense to list it on the same page as the mini-series volume, so it's all in one place.  For others, like Superman, Batman, X-Men and Spider-Man, I don't have a ready answer for, but there's got to be a better way than listing them one volume per page.
#25 Edited by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  @jloneblackheart:  @aztek the lost: OK, I just submitted something, but wanted to double check with you guys that I did it right:  I'm on a trip so don't have much of my collection on hand, but I happened to have three of the hardcover Superman: New Krypton trades that are collecting the New Krypton story arc from various comic issues.  I noticed they weren't anywhere on the site, so I submitted a new volume.  I think they should all be issues in one volume, as the indicia all say "Superman: New Krypton volume 1," "Superman: New Krypton volume 2," etc.  Here are the images from the first three (I don't have the fourth on hand):  
 

 
Here's a picture of the 3rd volume's spine: 
 
SNK Vol 3 Spine
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

So, what do you guys think? 
 
Thanks!!
#26 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@cbishop said:
" @aztek the lost: I totally understand what you're saying about going by the indicia listing, but it makes the wiki extremely inconvenient.  Shouldn't there be a way to direct multiple searches to the same page, instead?  For example, if I search "Fables: Animal Farm," or "Fables: Wolves," the search still takes me to the "Fables TPB" page.  I'm not sure how the Comic Vine search bar differs from a search engine, but a search engine could do that.  If it worked that way, it would keep people from thinking the title doesn't exist onsite, and hopefully keep dupe pages from being created.  Also, it would cut down the page count clutter... unless CV is just out to create as many pages as possible, but having to go to a volume page and then an issue page to view each individual TPB is time consuming, tedious, and a touch ridiculous. For some unnumbered TPB's, like a TPB for a mini-series, it would make sense to list it on the same page as the mini-series volume, so it's all in one place.  For others, like Superman, Batman, X-Men and Spider-Man, I don't have a ready answer for, but there's got to be a better way than listing them one volume per page. "
could you explain to me what is so time consuming and tedious about going from trade to trade? why are you doing that anyways? trades are on the site sure but if I want information about a series I go to the ongoing itself and check out individual issues, not the trades...going by the indicia is the rule and was set out by the staff so arguing it is a moot point, I'm just trying to figure out what's so inconvenient, I like having order personally and for me it serves its function perfectly
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#27 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: in a situation like that where each trade doesn't have its own title and the indicia just says "Volume (insert # here)" after the main title then yes they should be the same volume, there are situations like that which can be found on CV already.
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#28 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost: Oh, I know, I saw the Huntress's examples, I was just making sure I'd done this one right, since the last one I thought I did right was rejected. :-)  I guess I'm on the right track now!  Thanks for all the help!
#29 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: Yep, you did this one right. ^_^ Great job! I'm also surprised that nobody had added them, yet. 
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#30 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: I know right?  That's part of the reason I wanted to make sure I'd done it right, lol!  And thanks!
#31 Posted by cbishop (7422 posts) - - Show Bio

@aztek the lost said:

"could you explain to me what is so time consuming and tedious about going from trade to trade? why are you doing that anyways? trades are on the site sure but if I want information about a series I go to the ongoing itself and check out individual issues, not the trades...going by the indicia is the rule and was set out by the staff so arguing it is a moot point, I'm just trying to figure out what's so inconvenient, I like having order personally and for me it serves its function perfectly "


lol, I tend to browse for cover images, and I make a lot of CV Lists (which are often based on those cover images), so one cover per page is extremely tedious, especially having to click through to another page for the larger cover image.  Sometimes, the trades are what I'm looking for - you seem to be assuming that everyone uses the site the same way you do. ;) 
 
As I said, I completely understand the indicia rule, and I don't necessarily disagree with it - in fact, my suggestion was to find a way to have a search of the indicia titles for a volume of trades to lead to the same page.  It would still be ordered that way.  Actually, I think putting them all on one page view is more orderly, rather than one on this page, one on that page, one on the next page, etc.  That's time consuming - going from page to page to page, instead of having them all on one volume page, like the single issues.  "Time consuming" in itself is "inconvenient," and "inconvenient" makes it "tedious."  Totally not arguing the point, just trying to answer your question. 
 
Personally, I'd go one further step, to make it even more orderly, and have a volume's trades tabbed on the same page as the single issues, but that's a format change, so I don't imagine we'll see that.  Say you're looking at Invincible.  On that page, there are tabs for "Issue Number Desc," "Issue Number Asc," "Recent Edits" and "Newly Added."  I'd add another tab up there for "TPB," and put the Invincible TPB's on that page.  Very convenient and very orderly.  Then it's just a matter of directing indicia title searches for each trade to that one page.  Honestly: if someone comes to this site looking for trades, they're not Joe Blow off the street - they're a reader that knows enough about comics to know that the trades have volume numbers on the spines, even if those numbers aren't in the indicia.  It won't dissolve the Dewey Decimal System into a quivering mass to have them all on one page.  If it were being organized to sell books to people, it might be more critical. ...Okay, that paragraph might have been arguing the point.  It was only meant to be throwing another idea out there.  I'm going to catch some shuteye now.  Take it light, aztek', as it was intended. ;)

#32 Edited by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  OK, so one more quick question for ya about adding editors to the creators section for trades.  Sticking with the New Krytpon example, in the Volume 1 trade, there is an Executive Editor, a Collected Editor, and two Original Series Editors.  Would we add all four, or just the Executive and Collected Editors, as the Original Series Editors would already be accounted for in the individual issues?
 
@cbishop: I like your "tab for TPBs" idea!
#33 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: You add everybody who is credited, all four editors. Although, you will run into problems trying to assign more than one job to one person. For example, if you were adding Mike Choi and he was both the inker and colorer. It will let you check both of them, but when it saves, it will only credit one. So if somebody has two duties like that, you just mark them as artist. Otherwise, everybody who is credited in the singular issues (except for cover artists) should also be credited in the trade. 
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#34 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  Great, thanks!  Ahhh, I was wondering why it wasn't keeping my multiple checks...
#35 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: It's a bug that's been around for ages. It has a lot of the editors pretty frustrated and unfortunately, Red LAMP and the other engineers aren't able to fix it, so I think they're trying to bring in outside help. 
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#36 Edited by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  It seems like the checkbox arrays for the creators are getting lost in the DOM when the page is submitted, almost like it's only sending one value instead of the full array to the response page.  I know that can get pretty tricky with AJAX.  I do not envy the engineers that issue...You're right though, this is pretty addictive! ;-)
#37 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: Yeah. I have no idea what you just said. :P It gets more addictive once you hit 1000 points and even more so once you hit 5000.
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#38 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  lol, sorry, I went into tech mode ;)  I was lucky enough to have 1000 points from GiantBomb from a year ago or so, but I'd gotten kinda bored with that.  I can see myself spending a lot of time editing here though...
#39 Posted by Mercy_ (92676 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold: It's OK. My uncle's a techie, so I'm used to your language. I don't comprehend it or speak it fluently, but I can get by. Niiice. We can always use more editors. ^_^
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#40 Posted by Skywarpgold (55 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:  hehe, cool!  I'll definitely be pulling the long box from the attic when I get home.  Looks like it's finally time to re-organize the trades on my shelves as well! :-D
#41 Posted by cbishop (7422 posts) - - Show Bio
@skywarpgold said:
"@cbishop: I like your "tab for TPBs" idea! "

Thank you. :)