#1 Posted by valinorbob (52 posts) - - Show Bio

Long post, be warned.

First of all, great site, it is awesome. However, I feel that there are a few too many powers and that many characters are being given powers that don't really fit, which hinders the ranking system because there are lot of odd matchups. This might require reseting all power assignments and starting from scratch, but since it seems a lot of the rankings have been lost recently, this might not be a bad time to do it.

Part of the issue is that some powers are just different uses of a main power. Telekinesis for example, refers to moving things with one's mind. Many uses of telekinesis, however, appear as other powers like flight or force fields. Should a character also be given those powers, even though they come from the telekinesis power? What about the Invisible Woman, she can create force fields and move things with her thoughts, but does that mean she has Telekinesis? No, because technically, she isn't affecting the object directly, she is manipulating an invisible force field to move things around, so her power should be Force Manipulation or something to that effect, which can include the creation of force fields and turning invisible.

So, my proposed changes are two-fold. First, we need to clean up the actual powers page and remove duplicate or confusing powers. Second, we need to change the way we assign powers to characters to make sure we are actually assigning their core powers and not every possible use of one of their core powers.

Psionic/Psychic

These are perhaps the most confusing as they are both very similar and may or may not include several other powers that are listed separately. I propose that we remove Psychic and Psionic and have just:

  1. Psychic Awareness - This character has some extra sensory perception that may provide warnings, alert them to the presence of other psychically aware characters, or give them some defense against mental attacks. Any character with Psychic Awareness can generally be thought of as being Psychic.

  2. Telepathy - This character has the ability to communicate with their thoughts. This includes reading other's minds and projecting their thoughts to others. However, some characters may only be able to read minds and some may only be able to project their thoughts. The most powerful telepaths can erase memories or take control of another's actions.

  3. Telekinesis - This character can exert physical force on an object with only their thoughts. Some telekinetics are limited to affecting only objects they can touch, while others have no such limits. Telekinesis can be used to move objects, create force fields, blast enemies, and even fly.

Super Sight, Hearing, Smell, etc

I think it would be ok to reduce these to just Super Senses, as I can't think of any characters that have only one heightened sense and any that do can just be explained in their bio.

Super Strength and Stamina

I believe Stamina can be eliminated as it is generally just a side effect of super strength. Are they really any characters with super stamina but not super strength?

Godly Powers

Ok, I stil have no idea what Godly Powers are supposed to represent, but I'm going to assume it is the ability to bend the laws of the universe, in which case it should be renamed Reality Control as there are non-gods who can do that.

Healing and Immortal

These are somewhat confusing because it seems that some people are using Immortal in place of Invulnerability or Healing. Wolverine is not Immortal, neither is Superman. Immortal should be used only for characters who will not die of old age (and the description should also mention that this typically includes immunity to poisons and diseases). Healing should be renamed to Healing Factor or Regeneration, to show that it is a passive ability. If there are any characters that can actually heal others, then a Heal Other power could be added.

Unarmed Combat

This should be renamed to Enhanced Fighting Ability or Martial Arts, not everyone that has ever thrown a punch should be given this power, only those who are well beyond the average human. Captain America, Batman and Wolverine would qualify, but Cyclops would not, neither would Superman, Hulk, or Thor because without their super strength they would be no match for a trained martial artist in a hand to hand fight.

Power Suit, Feral and Implants

These are all origins of powers and not powers themselves. Also, Feral is too vague, from the descriptions it seems like several characters could simply have Feral as their only power, but this doesn't really tell you what they do. It should be renamed Animal Form and used only for those characters that actually transform themselves into animals (like Wolfsbane, or Beast Boy). The character should be given the actual powers they have whether this is super strength, flight, super senses, or whatever and it should be explained in their bio why they have these powers.

Magic

Magic is almost the exact opposite of the powers mentioned above as there is more to magic than just duplicating other powers' effects, and different uses of powers should not be assigned to a character, just explained in their bio. So Doctor Strange would have Magic as his only power, and possibly Gadgets as he does have many magical trinkets, and in his bio it should mention the various types of spells he uses, like creating force fields, flying, astral projection, etc.

Miscellaneous

  1. Pyrotechnic could be renamed Fire Control.

  2. Electricity could be renamed Electricity Control.

  3. Energy Control should be added for any characters that are similar to Human Torch/Iceman but with a generic or indistict type of energy, like Silver Surfer, Banshee, Siryn, etc.

  4. Undead is a character type, not a power.

  5. Vampire could be renamed Vampirism, Life Leech, or Life Drain.


Post Edited:2006-12-19 04:17:16

#2 Posted by Raif (360 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds good to me, I think less is more.

#3 Posted by ScoodleDaddle (646 posts) - - Show Bio

Unarmed Combat This should be renamed to Enhanced Fighting Ability or Martial Arts, not everyone that has ever thrown a punch should be given this power, only those who are well beyond the average human. Captain America, Batman and Wolverine would qualify, but Cyclops would not, neither would Superman, Hulk, or Thor because without their super strength they would be no match for a trained martial artist in a hand to hand fight.

Nerdy discrepancies are forthcoming. Cyclops has beaten Wolverine in hand-to-hand combat too many times to count. Superman is a master in Kryptonian Martial Arts. This has been shown in quite a few stories where he's lost his powers. Thor is also an exceptional hand-to-hand fighter without his powers. He's fought and won a LOT of big time battles without his strength.

Power Suit, Feral and Implants: These are all origins of powers and not powers themselves.

Booster Gold has a power suit, but that is not his only origin/power. It simply provides him with his flight/super strength.

Edit: I'm mostly just having nerdy gripes here. Don't take me too seriously.
Post Edited:2006-12-19 04:19:26

#4 Posted by valinorbob (52 posts) - - Show Bio

When has Cyclops beaten Wolverine? I've never seen this or even heard of it until now. Wolverine is a master of several forms of martial arts (and he's had over a hundred years of experience fighting for his life). He took down Shang-chi, the master of Kung Fu, easily. And ok, Thor is an exception since he has had hundreds of years of experience fighting. I've never read too many Superman comics, but Kryptonian Martial Arts? That just sounds like they wanted to give him a fighting chance against Batman without his powers and came up with that as the excuse...

Anyway, my point is really that super powers should be exactly that, super. Beyond normal human limits. Wolverine has had more than a normal human lifetime to hone his fighting skills, Captain America has been boosted slightly beyond the normal human limits. Iron Fist has trained with supernatural teachers and learned supernatural techniques. I wouldn't really accredit Batman with super fighting skills, but I think his extreme motivation has allowed him to go beyond what any other person would be willing to do, so it is fitting (that and he needs SOMETHING to be ranked on besides Gadgets).

This is also partially an attempt to lower the number of people with any given power, as I personally don't like seeing pretty much every character on the site having Unarmed Combat.
Post Edited:2006-12-19 04:33:53

#5 Posted by ScoodleDaddle (646 posts) - - Show Bio

valinorbob says:

"When has Cyclops beaten Wolverine? I've never seen this or even heard of it until now. Wolverine is a master of several forms of martial arts (and he's had over a hundred years of experience fighting for his life). He took down Shang-chi, the master of Kung Fu, easily. And ok, Thor is an exception since he has had hundreds of years of experience fighting. I've never read too many Superman comics, but Kryptonian Martial Arts? That just sounds like they wanted to give him a fighting chance against Batman without his powers and came up with that as the excuse...Anyway, my point is really that super powers should be exactly that, super. Beyond normal human limits. Wolverine has had more than a normal human lifetime to hone his fighting skills, Captain America has been boosted slightly beyond the normal human limits. Iron Fist has trained with supernatural teachers and learned supernatural techniques. I wouldn't really accredit Batman with super fighting skills, but I think his extreme motivation has allowed him to go beyond what any other person would be willing to do, so it is fitting (that and he needs SOMETHING to be ranked on besides Gadgets).This is also partially an attempt to lower the number of people with any given power, as I personally don't like seeing pretty much every character on the site having Unarmed Combat.
Post Edited:2006-12-19 04:33:53"

I'll find some scans of Cyclops humiliating Wolverine. And the Kryptonian thing really had nothing to do with Batman, it showed that he's an exceptional hand-to-hand combatant with or without the powers.

#6 Posted by Captain Cascader (1284 posts) - - Show Bio

We are 100% going to add/split powers out today. We've been watching the boards and will take these comments into consideration. I'll put up a new post when I make the changes. At this point it's mostly just needed to make the proper icons.

Staff
#7 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

I think another area that is confusing is the "Speed" power. I always thought when you were ranking two people with "Speed" (Should it be called "Super Speed"?), you were basically ranking a footrace. And what Flash, Quicksilver and Superman can do is a far cry from Spider-Man, Beast and yes, even Squirrel Girl can do.

Plus, should there be a separate power for speed associated with flight? The Green Lanterns have speed, which makes sense, as they can break orbit and have interstellar flight. But you don't think of them as Super Speed characters.

#8 Posted by valinorbob (52 posts) - - Show Bio

That's true, Bishop, but I think that's mostly a perspective problem. Flight could easily be the power used to rank speed of flight between people, but it could also be used to rank maneuverability or agility in the air. Some powers have many facets that could be ranked independently, but I can't see a good way to show this without simply making multiple powers.

#9 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

True enough. I guess when you're ranking them against each other, it's a competition in that power, so flight would encompass all aspects of it.

Sadly, I try to picture these "contests" in my head to make a valid choice (always completely biased with Iron Fist, of course) and some of the match ups make me laugh. How do you challenge agility? A balance beam competition? Wolverine and Batman doing that ribbon-gymnastic thing?

#10 Posted by Captain Cascader (1284 posts) - - Show Bio

The following changes were just made

  1. Speed was changed to Super Speed.

  2. Electricity was changed to Electricity control

  3. Pyrotechnic was changed to Fire Control

  4. Undead was changed to Necromancy

  5. Vampire was changed to Vampirism

  6. Godly powers changed to Divine Powers

  7. We are being more careful about new powers being added to characters

The following changes will be made by the end of the day

  1. Addition of Attractiveness Femenine, Atrractiveness Masculine (for no other reason then it'll be fun to rank).

  2. Split of Weapon Master into Marksmanship and Melee Weapons

  3. Addition of Probability Manipulation to the power list.

  4. Addition of Cosmic Powers.

What we'll likely do a little later

  1. Merge a couple powers.

All other proposed changes by valinorbob and others, while sound, either take away from specifivity or are really just a bit too nitpicky for us. We'll revisit this again in a month or so, but for now we wanna see how things flesh out before we make any moves.


Post Edited:2006-12-19 15:01:59
Post Edited:2006-12-19 15:08:27

Staff
#11 Posted by DEADPOOL (2710 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually disagree with how super-stamina is only associated with super-strength. Super-stamina is also associated with characters that have hyper-regenerative abilities. It slows fatigue toxins, quickly repairs small bodily damage (such as torn muscle fibers), and gives a faster heart rate which pumps oxygen through the body faster.

But I do agree that powers shouldn't be clustered together, and only the characters with an extensive martial-arts background should recieve "Unarmed Combat" as an ability.
Post Edited:2006-12-19 15:23:44
Post Edited:2006-12-19 15:24:01

#12 Posted by valinorbob (52 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain Cascader says:

"**The following changes were just made**1. Speed was changed to Super Speed.2. Electricity was changed to Electricity control3. Pyrotechnic was changed to Fire Control4. Undead was changed to Necromancy5. Vampire was changed to Vampirism6. Godly powers changed to Divine Powers7. **We are being more careful about new powers being added to characters****The following changes will be made by the end of the day**1. Addition of Attractiveness Femenine, Atrractiveness Masculine (for no other reason then it'll be fun to rank).2. Split of Weapon Master into Marksmanship and Melee Weapons3. Addition of Probability Manipulation to the power list.4. Addition of Cosmic Powers.**What we'll likely do a little later**1. Merge a couple powers.All other proposed changes by valinorbob and others, while sound, either take away from specifivity or are really just a bit too nitpicky for us. We'll revisit this again in a month or so, but for now we wanna see how things flesh out before we make any moves.

What? No Wisecracking?

#13 Posted by Captain Cascader (1284 posts) - - Show Bio

What? No Wisecracking?

Totally forgot about this. I'll add it as well!

Staff
#14 Posted by Teh_Exploder (80 posts) - - Show Bio

i think Unarmed combat should only be given to people who use it without many enhancements i.e. Superman or Thor. Exceptions to this rule would have to be Iron Fist, Luke Cage, and The Thing.

#15 Posted by fesak (7073 posts) - - Show Bio

Since the change to ice/fire i think that Earth Manipulation and Wind Bursts should be changed to Earth Control and Wind Control. Just for clarification.

Moderator Online
#16 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is a good example of somebody with super-stamina and no super-strength.

Immortality really is not a power, it's just a state not ever dieing. In practice these characters have high regeneration and/or invulnerability. Something like this only belongs in a bio in my opinion. Retarded aging 'could' be a power, but it really cannot be used in a fight so it its usefuless is tenous.

As valinorbob already said, some of the listed Powers are also not really powers themselves, but just sources of those powers, such as Magic, Divine, Necromancy, Power Suit and even also Vampirism and Gadgetry.

For example 'through' magic Dr. Strange can teleport, create force fields, use mind control, creat illusions and even attack with energy blasts. Iron Man, 'through' his power-suit can attack with energy blasts, absorb energy, and has enhanced senses. Because of being a Vampire, they can regenerate, shape shift, can leap and have enhanced agililty, etc. For the sake of clarity and to keep powers down, I would suggest these things be removed and only mentioned in the bios.

I'd like to see the 'powers' be what is actually done, not how it is done, like some of the examples given above. Take the Flash for instance, he basically has super-speed, but through that he can do some extra feats, including intangibility by vibrating his molecules, invisibility by just moving around really fast, create wind vortexes and even climbing walls. He can also absorb and redirect kinetic energy too, but that is more from the speed force and not due to him being able to move very fast.

Another example is Gadgetry, I think what should be listed is what these gadgets can afford the character, and not the fact that the character 'has' gadgets. Through 'gadgets' The Ghost can go intangible, go invisible, and control computers and electronics. Through 'gadgets' Batman has some invulnerability(bullet proof clothing), he has enhanced senses, grappling ability, chemical and explosive attacks, among others.

I also agree with valinorbob about renaming Unarmed Combat to 'Martial Arts'(Hulk is an unarmed combatant, but he can't be considered good enough at it for it to be listed a 'power', it's just a side affect of his immense strength), and renaming Healing 'Regeneration'

Phasing/Ghost is kind of confusing, and I don't think you need to mention 'Ghost' as a ghosting effect is actually two powers combined, Intangibility and Invisibility, just not complete invisibility. Oh also, Phasing should be called Intangibility :D

#17 Posted by fesak (7073 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont' agree with renaming Healing 'Regeneration' since there are people that can heal others, like Elixir.

Moderator Online
#18 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

Which is a completely different power, as characters like Wolverine and the Hulk do no such thing as 'heal others'. I suggest creating 'Regeneration' to put Wolvie and Hulk in, and keep Healing for characters with the power of actually consciously Healing themselves and others.

#19 Posted by G-Man (37776 posts) - - Show Bio

We can see how others feel about this. All of this can be addressed in the actual description area under each characters' origin. It seems we already have A LOT of "powers" listed. Sure magic or gadgets isn't really a power but I think we're using it in kinda a generic sense. Wolvie's always been said to have a "healing factor" even though, yes, he can regenerate certain parts.

Staff
#20 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

The question is what does it describe about the character? I think you'll find that actually, when thinking about 'powers', it brings up more questions than it answers, and eventually people will start to fill in the gaps that power category doesn't cover, and list what they can actually do. This will add more power categories and lead to clutter and confusion.

In the long run listing 'magic' as a power is completely unneccesary, it really is more of an origin thing, I mrean really, is listing somebody as 'magic' powers any different than listing then as having 'alien' powers?

Another thing, many characters have magic powers, but they would never be listed as 'magic' powers, like Juggernaut and Captain Marvel(Shazam), this is how I think all characters should be approached.

#21 Posted by DEADPOOL (2710 posts) - - Show Bio

Juggernaut and Captain Marvel are enhanced by magic, but they don't employ magic, y'know? "Magic" is used so that certain characters, like Dr. Strange, don't have every imaginable power listed.

#22 Posted by G-Man (37776 posts) - - Show Bio

That's where the ranking and descriptions come in. Not all those with Super Strength have the same strength.

Staff
#23 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

That would assume all magic users are as fully powered as Dr. Strange, but they aren't. All 'magic' powered characters, like Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate and the rest would just be listed with one power, 'magic', which would be much more confusing because then you'd have to define what 'magic' power truly is and what it can afford the character.

#24 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the confusing part, Super Strength is a 'power', so it can be easily ranked as to level, not so strong to immensily strong.

But the 'magic' power is this all encompassing power to representing magicians so you don't have to list all of their actual powers, so when you are ranking them for leve are you actually ranking what levels they do these 'magic' powers, or are you ranking how 'many' powers they have within their 'magic' power set?

How does this ranking tell us that magician A has teleportation ability, and magician B doesn't, without actually listing all the powers they DO have?

#25 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

Simple -- in their description, you list all the powers they do have.

See? Problem solved. That's what I did when editing Shaman. The man could do anything. And now I wrote down what that "everything" entailed.

#26 Posted by G-Man (37776 posts) - - Show Bio

I already suggested that.

Staff
#27 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

That kind of defeats the purpose of having powers listed as you do now, and having the ability to rank people based on those powers, that made this site special, otherwise it's just another bio site.

#28 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

But most magicians have powers they've never demonstrated. Literally, Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Shaman, and other "wizards" can do ANYTHING. So, just give them every power, and put them at the top of the powers list. Because, they've shown Doc Strange able to hold the Hulk with a spell. So he's stronger than anyone. And he can teleport anywhere...y'know, if the writer wants him too.

I think there is nothing wrong with pitting "Magic" against "Magic" in the rankings. The only other option is to give them every power.

#29 Posted by primemover (17 posts) - - Show Bio

So give them every power, we already have characters like the Martian Manhunter and the Silver Surfer who also have almost every power, if they have shown the power being used in the comics, it should be listed. It seems that is what this page is built for.

If you want to compare 'Magicians', maybe there should be a category for 'origin' or 'means' so we can have extended vs. battles. Imagine categories for Magicians, Mutants, Gods, Aliens, Enhanced Humans, Normal Humans and even Mechanically Enhanced Humans.