#1 Edited by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

I am trying to get some better direction in the wiki as it pertains to concepts and I have identified a few kinds of concepts that we use:

Publication - Concepts as to how comic books are put together, like concepts on TPBs and letter columns or stunts like the Tron Legacy Covers

Comic History - Pages that look at the history of comics like DC Explosion and Implosion or Roy Lichtenstein Pop Art.

Artistic - Things about how artists do their work such as Kirby Crackle or Ben Day Dots.

Genres - Straightforward, things like romance or post apocalyptic.

Themes - Things like drug use in comics, homosexuality.

Comic Cons - These generally go as concepts (including cosplay)

Teams - Some teams go as comics instead, with pages like Zombies or Robots or Aliens.

Universes - I am trying to expand on this, but this should be things like Star Trek, Star Wars, G.I. Joe, Transformers and so on.

In comic concepts - Things that exist inside of comic universes, like multiverses.

Are there any big sub-groups that I am missing? I am thinking of trying to get these better organized and making them into editable lists to make them more easy to sort through.

Moderator
#2 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure what you're asking, Razz... Do you want help naming these concepts, or do you want help thinking of more concepts to include in the list?

#3 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Well actually both eventually. I need all of the categories first, then I am going to assign each concept to a category. If something doesn't fit in anywhere then it will probably get deleted. Then we decide on formats for all the sub categories.

Moderator
#4 Edited by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: That sounds hard. Good luck. I don't like thinking.

#5 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

You mean besides the ones that are already listed? (on the concept page not your list)

#6 Edited by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@end_boss: Well this is the community involvement phase, if no one adds in anything then I will just do what I want, with only the other mods to stop me. BWAHHAHHAHA

Moderator
#7 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio
Jesus Christ how--actually. Godspeed.

@razzatazz:

#8 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#9 Posted by Owen_Porter (83277 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: Like putting Parkour under themes and Speed Force under comic concepts? Or am I still missing the point :S

Moderator Online
#10 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@gambler: Eventually assign those sub categories and formats yes, but for now, just identifying the sub categories.

Moderator
#11 Posted by Owen_Porter (83277 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator Online
#12 Edited by wmwadeii (3137 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

A tie-in concept category perhaps, for the likes of Marvel Cinematic Universe and DC Animated Universe. There's probably a better name for it.

#14 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz:

My current standing regarding the previous Star Wars concepts topic is that the Force page be allowed to remain a concept of its own (though as I also mentioned previously, most if not all of the information in the Force page is plagiarized from Wookieepedia. I can work on that at a later time).

#15 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wmwadeii: Those would be the comic like concepts

Moderator
#16 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: If I did merge them I wouldn't carp any old page before we saw a new one. Isn't the force kind of obvious in the Star Wars universe though? I see no reason why it would be tagged very often a separate from other things

Moderator
#17 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: If I did merge them I wouldn't carp any old page before we saw a new one. Isn't the force kind of obvious in the Star Wars universe though? I see no reason why it would be tagged very often a separate from other things

That's a very good point, the Force is synonymous with Star Wars so a heading on the universe page seems like a good idea, or even on the Jedi or Sith pages.

#18 Posted by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: If I did merge them I wouldn't carp any old page before we saw a new one. Isn't the force kind of obvious in the Star Wars universe though? I see no reason why it would be tagged very often a separate from other things

The Force page is tagged in the Powers and Abilities section quite often, as well as in Sith and Jedi pages.

For the sake of consistency, if the Force page is to be deleted, I say that the Speed Force should be deleted. What about the X-Gene? The Odin Force? Emotional Spectrum? The Other supernatural concepts unique to their universes and unique to specific people in those universes, but they have their own concept pages. Why, then, should Star Wars pages be treated differently? If the Force is deleted, then the Speed Force should go to the Speedsters, the X-Gene to the X-Men, the Odin Force to Asgard, and the Emotional Spectrum to the Green Lantern Corps. It seems to me that the Star Wars pages are being treated unfairly.

Again, I don't see why the Force should be treated differently. I've said that the "Jedi" concept should be put with the Jedi Order, but I stand firm that the Force should remain a solitary concept.

#19 Edited by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I get that, but the speed force is not a part of the universe in the same way that the Force is.

Moderator
#20 Posted by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz:

The DC universe is arguably larger than the Star Wars universe, but I admit that the Speedforce is more specific than the ones I mentioned. The Force exists throughout the Star Wars universe, but is utilized by only some - similar to the Emotional Spectrum, actually. Some aren't affected by it at all. There are countless philosophies regarding the Force and countless sects that aren't all associated with the Jedi and Sith. It's specific enough and wide ranging enough that it belongs its own concept.

If the Force doesn't have its own concept page, what, then, in the Star Wars universe, deserves a page? It's a concept unique to a specific universe, just like the others I mentioned.

#21 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I would like to see it combined into one page, to see what it looks like before taking it away as a concept. I think it is redundant. I think the distinguishing thing here is that one can understand the Dc Universe without understanding the speed force, but that one cannot understand the Star Wars universe without it.

Moderator
#22 Posted by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

If I get a say, I find The Force to be a valuable concept page. Many of the others, not so much.

Moderator
#23 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz:

For that matter, why do the Jedi get a page? They're essential; one cannot understand the Star Wars universe without them. This seems like an unnecessary removal. I was in favor of some of the mergers, like changing the clones into teams (which I tried to do before), but I am quite against this.

It does not seem right to me at all. I still say that Star Wars pages are being treated unfairly around here (I've said so before on other topics that I would still like the discuss at another time). The Force is broad enough that it can include a number of sects, abilities, philosophies, history, etc. If that were included into a broad "Star Wars" page (which used to exist before the upgrade; I don't know what happened to it) then it would become incredibly cluttered. If it were to be trimmed to be a smaller definition of the Force, then that would be removing necessary details that could have been utilized if given its own page.

#24 Edited by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I am not opposed to keeping the force page, but I would like to see it on the star wars page as well. The idea (which I think you are losing site of) is to use the universe pages as an introduction to the entire universe. There should be something like that for Star Wars.

Moderator
#25 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I am not opposed to keeping the force page, but I would like to see it on the star wars page as well. The idea (which I think you are losing site of) is to use the universe pages as an introduction to the entire universe. There should be something like that for Star Wars.

I'm not against that. If the Force were to be mentioned in the Star Wars page and given a H2 category (is that the right term? Eh), I'm all for that if the purpose was to give a general overview of the universe as a whole (which would be a wonderful place to mention the timeline and different eras in the universe, as well as levels of canon. I always wanted to have that).

I just think that a Force page all on its own would be good for a more detailed explanation on the Force overall. To put such important information in a general Star Wars page would lose people who just want a brief understanding, or would be intimidated by the vast amount of text to find other topics within the Star Wars page. I think it would be good to have both: general information in the Star Wars page with a link for further information to the Force concept page.

#26 Edited by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: So, all users of the Force are Jedi, but not all Jedi are members of the Jedi Order, correct?

@razzatazz If what I said above is true, it seems like the Jedi Order page should be a team, but the Jedi concept should cover all the different types of Jedi, without over explaining the Force as it does now. A link to the Force page should suffice. Then, since they are already covered on the Jedi concept page, the Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi pages can be deleted.

Now, the Jedi concept page could be information included on the Star Wars Universe page, that's what you want to happen? It might be a little confusing to search Jedi and have Jedi Order team page and Star Wars Universe concept page appear. I think users would automatically choose the Jedi Order and miss out on the information about other types of Jedi found on the concept page.

Moderator
#27 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: So, all users of the Force are Jedi, but not all Jedi are members of the Jedi Order, correct?.

No, not all users of the Force are or were Jedi. Many Force users are not Jedi.

There are Sith (most of whom were not Jedi before becoming Sith), the Aing'Tii, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, Imperial Knights, and other groups that use the Force, but are not part of the Order. There's also the Infinite Empire, which were

Now, the majority of people who call themselves "Jedi" are part of one of the following:

  • Actual members of the Order
  • Exiled members, who often don't call themselves Jedi. Meetra Surik did not call herself a Jedi until she was "redeemed."
  • Gray Jedi, who don't believe in the ways of the Council, but have not fallen to the Dark Side.
  • Dark Jedi. These people may or may not have been Jedi before becoming "Dark Jedi," but usually are fallen Jedi. There are other sects, like the Dark Acolytes of the CIS or the Reborn of the Imperial Remnant, who are considered "Dark Jedi."

Dark Jedi aren't affiliated with the Order. The first three could be mentioned in the Order page.

This is a brief overview, but you get the idea.

#28 Posted by wmwadeii (3137 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say if we go with the Umbrella idea and create a Franchise subgroup (Star Wars, Star Trek, The Walking Dead, Transformers, G.I Joe, TMNT to name a few), we can add a small paragraph about different sub teams, or even concepts. It would outline the information so that somebody trying to learn about it would understand but not so much as to weight down the page. It would then have a link directing you to the other. Example;

Mechanics/Concepts/Teams/Genre/Etc

X-Gene Mutant

For more information see X-Gene Mutant.

Snipet from the actual page, of course we would have more detail than what I've placed here for an example. The Children of the Atom, mutants are individuals in the Marvel Universe that are born with an X-Gene that grants them superhuman abilities. Mutants mark the next step in human evolution, known as Homo Superior. blah blah blah......

#29 Posted by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:
@jloneblackheart said:

@jedixman: So, all users of the Force are Jedi, but not all Jedi are members of the Jedi Order, correct?.

No, not all users of the Force are or were Jedi. Many Force users are not Jedi.

There are Sith (most of whom were not Jedi before becoming Sith), the Aing'Tii, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, Imperial Knights, and other groups that use the Force, but are not part of the Order. There's also the Infinite Empire, which were

Now, the majority of people who call themselves "Jedi" are part of one of the following:

  • Actual members of the Order
  • Exiled members, who often don't call themselves Jedi. Meetra Surik did not call herself a Jedi until she was "redeemed."
  • Gray Jedi, who don't believe in the ways of the Council, but have not fallen to the Dark Side.
  • Dark Jedi. These people may or may not have been Jedi before becoming "Dark Jedi," but usually are fallen Jedi. There are other sects, like the Dark Acolytes of the CIS or the Reborn of the Imperial Remnant, who are considered "Dark Jedi."

Dark Jedi aren't affiliated with the Order. The first three could be mentioned in the Order page.

This is a brief overview, but you get the idea.

So then the Jedi concept page should be removed and the Dark and Gray Jedi concept pages should stay?

Moderator
#30 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@wmwadeii said:

I would say if we go with the Umbrella idea and create a Franchise subgroup (Star Wars, Star Trek, The Walking Dead, Transformers, G.I Joe, TMNT to name a few), we can add a small paragraph about different sub teams, or even concepts. It would outline the information so that somebody trying to learn about it would understand but not so much as to weight down the page. It would then have a link directing you to the other. Example;

Mechanics/Concepts/Teams/Genre/Etc

X-Gene Mutant

For more information see X-Gene Mutant.

Snipet from the actual page, of course we would have more detail than what I've placed here for an example. The Children of the Atom, mutants are individuals in the Marvel Universe that are born with an X-Gene that grants them superhuman abilities. Mutants mark the next step in human evolution, known as Homo Superior. blah blah blah......

That's a good idea, though obviously not applicable to every case.

#31 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wmwadeii: It would work potentially. I would like to see the universe pages first and then we can decide what to get rid of. In case of universes like G.I. Joe there would not really be any concepts to go anyway.

Moderator
#32 Posted by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

So then the Jedi concept page should be removed and the Dark and Gray Jedi concept pages should stay?

In my opinion, we can do this:

The Force = Concept

Jedi Order = Team

Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi can be separate. The Dark Side, Light Side, and other Force philosophies can be mentioned in the Force concept page. Jedi Exiles and maybe some Gray Jedi can go into the Order page. For Dark Jedi, we can do individual team pages, like for the Seven Dark Jedi, the Dark Acolytes, etc., which we already have. I'm not sure if we necessarily need a "Dark Jedi" page.

In a universe page, we can do a brief overview of the Force and what a Jedi / Sith is, and then post a link to the main page concerning those topics. I think this format will work the best.

#33 Posted by wmwadeii (3137 posts) - - Show Bio

Another reason I like to still keep sub-concepts in addition to the Universe/Franchise pages is because we can link the subs into the issues they relate to while leaving the main one unlinked

#34 Posted by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: So I can delete Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi and you'll work on the SW Universe, Force and Jedi pages and get them all concise?

Moderator
#35 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: So I can delete Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi and you'll work on the SW Universe, Force and Jedi pages and get them all concise?

Sure. I'd just prefer that the Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi pages remain temporarily, only so I can look back at them in case I miss something. I won't get a chance to work on them for a few days, but I can do some stuff to the Force page for now. All of the content that was there had to be removed due to plagiarism.

I haven't decided on whether or not keeping the Jedi concept page is a good idea. We might be able to tackle that at a later time, after a universe page has been established and after I've filled in the Force concept page. Eventually, I'd like to see the Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi pages deleted, leaving room for team pages for specific sects.

#36 Posted by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

What is the current status of Star Wars pages?

#37 Posted by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I haven't done anything. Waiting on word from you.

Moderator
#38 Posted by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I haven't done anything. Waiting on word from you.

Ah. Well, I'm still working on the Force page. I just need to know what pages specifically are on the table before I can say for absolute certainty.

#39 Edited by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: Here's what I thought was going on:

Star Wars concept page to be added? Right @razzatazz?

Force concept to be made more concise. Jedi concept still up in the air. Most of this information should end up on various team pages, Force page and Star Wars concept page, so it may be redundant.

Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi information to be included on another concept page. Waiting for the word and I can delete them.

Jedi Order team page to only include info about the Order, not all Jedi.

Moderator
#40 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#41 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: Here's what I thought was going on:

Star Wars concept page to be added? Right @razzatazz?

Force concept to be made more concise. Jedi concept still up in the air. Most of this information should end up on various team pages, Force page and Star Wars concept page, so it may be redundant.

Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi information to be included on another concept page. Waiting for the word and I can delete them.

Jedi Order team page to only include info about the Order, not all Jedi.

I'm not positive, but here's what I think:

Force page - remains

Gray Jedi page - inconclusive, because I am not sure where that info would otherwise go. So for now it does need its own page until we know what we can do with it.

Dark Jedi page - delete. There are already team pages for the various Dark Jedi groups (the Seven Dark Jedi, Dark Acolytes, etc. - those pages are a mess, by the way). There's no point for a general "Dark Jedi" page.I think the Jedi Order page can have stuff about Jedi Exiles and, in theory, some Gray Jedi who were part of the Order (Jolee Bindo, Qui-Gon Jinn, etc.).

#42 Posted by jloneblackheart (5467 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: We'll see how your progress goes and what you think should be done. We just need everything to be more concise. Dark Jediis gone, so one concept down. That's a good thing.

Moderator
#43 Edited by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

I am going to try to get this going finally.

Moderator
#44 Edited by JediXMan (27958 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz said:

I am going to try to get this going finally.

As always, I'm hear to give input if needed on the Star Wars and Code Geass related pages (both of which I've done a great deal of work on)

#45 Posted by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: If you want to keep Geass, I would suggest make it a universe page, not a power page. Though as it applies only to one 6 issue series, might that information not be better linked to the series itself.

Moderator
#46 Posted by pikahyper (10368 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: give it time I'll be adding a lot more Geass manga soon.

Moderator
#47 Edited by RazzaTazz (9351 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator