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Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio

Hello wiki editors.  We are embarking on a new initiative here at Comic Vine.  The focus of the next month or so is organizing our character wiki pages to follow the new Comic Vine Style Guide.  And I am filling our Task Queue up with character pages that need your help.   Super shout out to POKEYSTEVE who just completed a task for the Catwoman page and added the H2 Section titles properly. 
 
The main fix we need help with is, we need all character pages to start with the following H2 section titles: 
 

Origin

Discuss the origin story of the character in a paragraph. Save the details for the character evolution section. 

Creation 

Talk about the writers and artists who created the character.  If none, then talk about the writer or artist who had a major impact on the character. 
 

Character Evolution 

How has the character changed over the decades?  Don't go into minute detail.  If applicable, use H3 tags and subdivide this section by Golden Age, Silver Age, Modern Age, etc.  See the Wonder Woman or Superman page for examples.   
 
DO NOT write plot summaries in this section, this is not a section to summarize story lines.  

Major Story Arcs

Here is where you write about the super duper major story arcs that define this character.  Link the names of the story arcs to their actual story arc pages.  This is a section to discuss that Spider-Man found his black uniform in the Secret Wars story arc and that the suit went on to become Venom.  BUT it's not a place to summarize Secret Wars in its entirety; that should be done on the actual Secret Wars page.  Don't just list out story arcs either, each paragraph should lead into the next, discussing the story arcs as they all relate to each other.  
 
This is the ONLY section of the article that can have plot summaries.  
 
 
Note:  If one of the above sections absolute does not apply to the character, then leave it out.  The more popular a character is the more certain he/she is to be in need of the above section titles. 
 
So what are you waiting for?  Go ahead and fix up those character pages you've been working on or head to the task queue to earn bonus points!  You can find the task queue under the Help tab at the top of every page.
Staff
#1 Posted by jloneblackheart (5519 posts) - - Show Bio

What are other suitable H2 tags? Didn't you say Powers & Abilities and Alternate Realities are acceptable as well? Are there any others? 
 
I just did the Silver Surfer's page. I'll work on some more when I get a chance.

Moderator
#2 Posted by Mercy_ (92697 posts) - - Show Bio

Huzzah. Thanks for the example layout. 

Moderator
#3 Edited by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio

what's the difference between "Character Evolution" and "Major Story Arcs"...I ask because for example, some characters are never in major story arcs...at least not major in the idea that the arcs they are appearing in are big, they're self-contained...for example let's say Dangerous Habits (Hellblazer #41-46)...it's not a huge arc, most of it's significance comes from the fact it was Ennis' first crack at American comics...it's not a major story arc by any means in the grand scheme but it's very important to John Constantine...however, the info is just as much a part of his character evolution as any other mini arc in Hellblazer...and if every arc in Hellblazer went under Major Story Arcs...what would go under Character Evolution because Hellblazer is the place where he evolves...I guess what I'm asking is...does Character Evolution apply to characters that were created in the Modern Age of Comics (80's-Now)

Moderator
#4 Posted by .o0Johnny0o. (757 posts) - - Show Bio

I know I'm very new on the grand scale of things but I think it's a bitter sweet feeling when you see a Wiki page of a character that's a huge narrative longer than your arm in detail.
 
As lame and red-tapey as it sounds... a standardised formart would be pretty cool and more acessible to new comers.  I always see this site as my wikipedia of comics in that way.

#5 Posted by Mercy_ (92697 posts) - - Show Bio
@.o0Johnny0o. said:
" I know I'm very new on the grand scale of things but I think it's a bitter sweet feeling when you see a Wiki page of a character that's a huge narrative longer than your arm in detail.  As lame and red-tapey as it sounds... a standardised formart would be pretty cool and more acessible to new comers.  I always see this site as my wikipedia of comics in that way. "
It can be daunting to new users and to people who are looking for one specific thing. I've had a few conversations with xerox-kitty about this. It's awesome if you want to know everything that a character has ever done, but that's not usually the case. People want to be able to go to a page and get a general gist for the character. Wiki pages should not be a substitute for actually reading the comics and don't need panel by panel descriptions.   
 
So I'm definitely in favor of the new format, I think it's going to be very helpful. 
Moderator
#6 Posted by .o0Johnny0o. (757 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: I thought for a bit that 'Oh here, what if I really wanted to know what happened to this character around then!?'  Buuut then I realised there's a place for that and that's in the specific 'Story Arc' pages. I think maybe people just get over excited to display their knowledge of a character.
 
I can't really comment myself, being but a glint in an eye etc.  I did a wee bit about zombies but I made an real effort to make it broad and structured.  I think Vine can make it to be the #1 place to go to find out about Mr Freeze or CCA or the 'Between the legs shot'. In Vine I Trust [IVIT]
#7 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" what's the difference between "Character Evolution" and "Major Story Arcs"...I ask because for example, some characters are never in major story arcs...at least not major in the idea that the arcs they are appearing in are big, they're self-contained...for example let's say Dangerous Habits (Hellblazer #41-46)...it's not a huge arc, most of it's significance comes from the fact it was Ennis' first crack at American comics...it's not a major story arc by any means in the grand scheme but it's very important to John Constantine...however, the info is just as much a part of his character evolution as any other mini arc in Hellblazer...and if every arc in Hellblazer went under Major Story Arcs...what would go under Character Evolution because Hellblazer is the place where he evolves...I guess what I'm asking is...does Character Evolution apply to characters that were created in the Modern Age of Comics (80's-Now) "
Character evolution is a good place to discuss the changes in a character as they related to the real world we live in (golden, silver, modern age), or important changes brought on by new creative teams (Frank Miller turning Batman into the Dark Knight and why).   Newer characters may not need this section.
Staff
#8 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@.o0Johnny0o.: @The Dark Huntress: Comic Vine will always have long character wiki articles.  It's what we do.  After years of no rules, no style guide it's time to do some editing.   
 
But if you spend alot of time reading character wiki articles here on Comic Vine you'll see there's a great deal of writing that needs to be edited and cleaned up. We're riddled with bad grammar, punctuation mistakes and poor writing.  To stay competitive with wikipedia -- as far as comics go -- we need to practice our editing skills.      
Staff
#9 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" what's the difference between "Character Evolution" and "Major Story Arcs"...I ask because for example, some characters are never in major story arcs...at least not major in the idea that the arcs they are appearing in are big, they're self-contained...for example let's say Dangerous Habits (Hellblazer #41-46)...it's not a huge arc, most of it's significance comes from the fact it was Ennis' first crack at American comics...it's not a major story arc by any means in the grand scheme but it's very important to John Constantine...however, the info is just as much a part of his character evolution as any other mini arc in Hellblazer...and if every arc in Hellblazer went under Major Story Arcs...what would go under Character Evolution because Hellblazer is the place where he evolves...I guess what I'm asking is...does Character Evolution apply to characters that were created in the Modern Age of Comics (80's-Now) "
Character evolution is a good place to discuss the changes in a character as they related to the real world we live in (golden, silver, modern age), or important changes brought on by new creative teams (Frank Miller turning Batman into the Dark Knight and why).   Newer characters may not need this section. "
ah when you put it that way (new creative teams putting dramatically different spins on characters) I see what you mean...I guess the main exclusion from receiving this section then would be creator-owned characters of the Modern Age of Comics (like Spider Jerusalem for example)
Moderator
#10 Posted by Pokeysteve (8299 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my gosh a super shout out?! Sadly nothing as awesome as that will happen to me for a while. You made a comic nerds week. The Wiki Style Guide and the Wonder Woman/Superman pages together are the perfect references. I had the Wonder Woman page open in another tab for the Catwoman page. Aztek is right about the Character Evolution and Arcs. It's really tough to distinguish between the two. A clearer explanation of that might help some of the people having trouble with the character pages. 
 
The bottom of that Catwoman page is still a disaster by the way.

Online
#11 Posted by Blurred View (363 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm more trying to distinguish between Creation and Character Evolution right now. 
 
So just to clarify. Is Creation the place to talk about the people who created the character AND other creators who had major impacts on the character? Or does the latter belong in Character Evolution instead and only belongs in Creation if there's really nothing to say about the original creators? Take a lot of the Secret Warriors for example. Bendis created them but Hickman did most of their development. Would mention of HIckman also belong in the Creation section?

#12 Posted by Mercy_ (92697 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blurred View said:
" I'm more trying to distinguish between Creation and Character Evolution right now.  So just to clarify. Is Creation the place to talk about the people who created the character AND other creators who had major impacts on the character? Or does the latter belong in Character Evolution instead and only belongs in Creation if there's really nothing to say about the original creators? Take a lot of the Secret Warriors for example. Bendis created them but Hickman did most of their development. Would mention of HIckman also belong in the Creation section? "
I'd say that Creation is more about the actual people behind the character and it's creation (and evolution) and that Character Evolution would be things that happen in story. Take Barbara Gordon for example. Alan Moore (as the writer of the Killing Joke, one of her defining story lines) would be talked about in the Creation section but the event itself would be talked about in Character Evolution. 
Moderator
#13 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blurred View said:

" I'm more trying to distinguish between Creation and Character Evolution right now.  So just to clarify. Is Creation the place to talk about the people who created the character AND other creators who had major impacts on the character? Or does the latter belong in Character Evolution instead and only belongs in Creation if there's really nothing to say about the original creators? Take a lot of the Secret Warriors for example. Bendis created them but Hickman did most of their development. Would mention of HIckman also belong in the Creation section? "

Here, I may be wrong but this is something I wrote for a page on this site and this is how I believe it should be divided (it's a similar situation where the creator had little impact on who the character is today): 
 

Creation


 The ever-changing character known as the Shade was originally created by Steve Ditko for DC Comics, where he starred in his eponymous series: Shade, the Changing Man. Only lasting eight issues, the series was cut short by the "DC Implosion" which saw twenty ongoing DC titles abruptly canceled, the ninth issue of the series was only ever seen in the Cancelled Comic Cavalcade. This title that saw the birth of the character was very superhero oriented and although it had little connection to the regular DC Universe within the story itself, the character was eventually established as part of the universe and even appeared in Crisis of the Infinite Earths. Shade went on to appear as a regular for a year and a half in the Suicide Squad series but was never really taken any farther then that in the DCU. The majority of his other appearances at this stage of his development was in DC handbooks and the like. 
 

Character Evolution  

 
Then it happened. As one of the many emerging writers that flooded DC in the late eighties and early nineties, Peter Milligan came along and in 1990 he launched what would become one of his literary masterpieces. A new series entitled Shade, the Changing Man that was far different from the last. Apart from the name and some of the alien back-story, this character was a fresh new look at a character who had yet to establish himself. So establish him, Milligan did. This series was marketed towards "Mature Readers" and was one of the many edgier comics that seemed to take hold in this era. The title far outlasted its predecessor lasting for a total of seventy issues, transferring over to Karen Berger's new Vertigo imprint in January of '93 with #33.
 
However, after the conclusion of the series, the character once again disappeared only showing up here and there for a random one-shot that showed off characters from the Vertigo line such as galleries and splash pages. 
 
But at last, ten years after his descent into comic book limbo, the character returned in Peter Milligan's run on Hellblazer, in #268 where he once again encounters John Constantine for an arc entitled "Sectioned" where Constantine has gone mad and needs help. How long the character will stick around is questionable as Milligan has said he hasn't decided whether or not to make Shade an ongoing character in the series. 
 

Major Story Arcs  

 
(this is where I'd put the character bio)
Moderator
#14 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blurred View: @aztek the lost: @Pokeysteve:  
 @The Dark Huntress:
Good points you are all making.  "Creation" should focus on the original creators.  And yes "Character Evolution" would be the place to talk about other creative teams and the direction they took the character.   The main difference is that "Creation" is about the the real life people, and "Character Evolution" is about the changes to the character over time -- and you can choose to or not to write about real human beings in the "Character Evolution" section.
Staff
#15 Posted by Mercy_ (92697 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. Thanks for the clarification. Figured it was something like that. ^_^
Moderator
#16 Posted by OrionStarlancer (126 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.: Do you think you could take a moment (and admittedly I didn't read the entire thread) to address how you want people to use borrowed information since realistically, everyone is going to have to use some borrowed information in order to complete this task.  I mentioned citation as a way to avoid plagiarism before, but you'd have to be pretty clear on how you want that done and whether or not you want any foot notes at the bottom listing sources as wikipedia does or in-text citations, etc . . . .  I can explain this more fully if you like, otherwise I'd like to hear your thoughts.  Thanks.
#17 Posted by Digifiend (582 posts) - - Show Bio
@OrionStarlancer: Good point. We don't actually have a proper way to cite a source, do we?
#18 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@OrionStarlancer: We don't want people going to Wikipedia and re-wording or plagiarizing them for articles here.  Besides I'd say at this point we have more detailed info about comic books than any wiki/database.  
 
Anyone who writes articles for the wiki should be reading the comics they are writing about.
Staff
#19 Posted by pikahyper (12162 posts) - - Show Bio

 I don't see a need for citations or borrowed information, everything here should be original written work unless it is a solicitation which has to be in italics or is a text blurb from inside a comic. Only places that should have info from other sources is news articles, forum posts, and blogs that use it for quotes.

Moderator
#20 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
Staff
#21 Posted by Pokeysteve (8299 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @Blurred View: @aztek the lost: @Pokeysteve:  
 @The Dark Huntress: Good points you are all making.  "Creation" should focus on the original creators.  And yes "Character Evolution" would be the place to talk about other creative teams and the direction they took the character.   The main difference is that "Creation" is about the the real life people, and "Character Evolution" is about the changes to the character over time -- and you can choose to or not to write about real human beings in the "Character Evolution" section. "
This is a great post. Character Evolution charts a Character/Team through the ages (Gold, Silver, Bronze, Modern) or writers/artist that had an impact if Age doesn't apply. I think that's what you're shooting for. 
Online
#22 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to admit, I am getting adjusted to most of the ideas proposed here...but no matter how I think it through, having Major Story Arcs be the standard title across pages just doesn't work IMO...how do we write bios for non-mainstream-superhero-comic characters...most characters in the database will never get a bio if they are confined to Major Story Arcs as most comics don't have any...and in general you can't really write a bio that isn't splattered with major gaps in the character's history if you only write about the arcs...I can understand trying to draw attention to story arc pages but what good is a character bio that isn't about the character at all but about what story arcs they appeared in...really all I'm proposing here is the standard H2 title to be something along the lines of "Biography" or whatever

Moderator
#23 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pokeysteve said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @Blurred View: @aztek the lost: @Pokeysteve:  
 @The Dark Huntress: Good points you are all making.  "Creation" should focus on the original creators.  And yes "Character Evolution" would be the place to talk about other creative teams and the direction they took the character.   The main difference is that "Creation" is about the the real life people, and "Character Evolution" is about the changes to the character over time -- and you can choose to or not to write about real human beings in the "Character Evolution" section. "
This is a great post. Character Evolution charts a Character/Team through the ages (Gold, Silver, Bronze, Modern) or writers/artist that had an impact if Age doesn't apply. I think that's what you're shooting for.  "
Yes. 
 
@aztek the lost said:
" I have to admit, I am getting adjusted to most of the ideas proposed here...but no matter how I think it through, having Major Story Arcs be the standard title across pages just doesn't work IMO...how do we write bios for non-mainstream-superhero-comic characters...most characters in the database will never get a bio if they are confined to Major Story Arcs as most comics don't have any...and in general you can't really write a bio that isn't splattered with major gaps in the character's history if you only write about the arcs...I can understand trying to draw attention to story arc pages but what good is a character bio that isn't about the character at all but about what story arcs they appeared in...really all I'm proposing here is the standard H2 title to be something along the lines of "Biography" or whatever "
For characters with no need for a Major Story Arc page and no Origin, just use the "Character Evolution" H2.   I can see where using "Biography" would be helpful, but I'd worry that people would start using "Biography" in pages where the "Origin", "Creation", "Character Evolution" and "Major Story Arcs" apply.  
Staff
#24 Posted by jakob187 (998 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of these pages need a little more love than just some headings.  I went through the Catwoman page and tried to pretty it up some with some general formatting, spelling and grammar, and such.  I didn't comb it with a fine tooth comb or anything, and I really need to work on some of the stuff at the bottom of that page.  However, there are pictures down there which can be difficult to work around without deleting and reuploading and such.  If it's one thing that I hate on my own wiki pages that I've put a lot of time in, it's when people delete stuff and then re-add it or whatever. 
 
I will say, however, that people need to make sure they are not MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ON WIKI PAGES!!!  The Catwoman page specifically said that Catwoman was going to be in The Dark Knight Rises.  However, no one...not Nolan, Bale, Hardy, Hathaway, NOBODY...has stated that Catwoman will be in the movie - only Selina Kyle.  I changed up the piece in Catwoman's film history that stated "Anne Hathaway is signed on to play Catwoman and Bane is the main villain being played by Tom Hardy".  If I'm wrong on that, then hey...let me know, but that type of stuff doesn't work on some of the other Whiskey sites (like the Infamous ice-powers scandal).

#25 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@jakob187 said:
" A lot of these pages need a little more love than just some headings.  I went through the Catwoman page and tried to pretty it up some with some general formatting, spelling and grammar, and such.  I didn't comb it with a fine tooth comb or anything, and I really need to work on some of the stuff at the bottom of that page.  However, there are pictures down there which can be difficult to work around without deleting and reuploading and such.  If it's one thing that I hate on my own wiki pages that I've put a lot of time in, it's when people delete stuff and then re-add it or whatever.  I will say, however, that people need to make sure they are not MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ON WIKI PAGES!!!  The Catwoman page specifically said that Catwoman was going to be in The Dark Knight Rises.  However, no one...not Nolan, Bale, Hardy, Hathaway, NOBODY...has stated that Catwoman will be in the movie - only Selina Kyle.  I changed up the piece in Catwoman's film history that stated "Anne Hathaway is signed on to play Catwoman and Bane is the main villain being played by Tom Hardy".  If I'm wrong on that, then hey...let me know, but that type of stuff doesn't work on some of the other Whiskey sites (like the Infamous ice-powers scandal). "
Yep our pages need some good copy editing and trimming of bad plot summaries.  That will be a big wiki task initiative later.  First we want to get everyone formatting the articles with the same sections.
Staff
#26 Posted by OrionStarlancer (126 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.: @Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @OrionStarlancer: We don't want people going to Wikipedia and re-wording or plagiarizing them for articles here.  Besides I'd say at this point we have more detailed info about comic books than any wiki/database.   Anyone who writes articles for the wiki should be reading the comics they are writing about. "
RedLAMP,  you presented some important arguments here so I want to take a moment to address all of them so I can explain why I think a citation function is important and how it could keep Whiskey media from getting in lots of legal trouble down the road while simultaneously helping to legitimize your site and teach the users an important lesson on how to handle such information. 
  
 I absolutely agree that people should not be going to Wikipedia, Marvel.com, DC.com, DC or Marvel encyclopedias, etc and re-wording or plagiarizing in any way that doesn't properly give credit to the original source, but that doesn't mean it's not happening and it doesn't mean that wanting it not to happen is going to prevent it.  I agree that there is a lot of information here, but I also think it is a little unrealistic to assume every wiki editor will do research by buying or renting every single comic necessary to edit or create a page.  Additionally, using comics themselves as a source is fine, but it's still information the reader didn't necessarily know previous to writing the entry, thus making it plagiarism if the information is referenced without proper citation. 
  
COMMON KNOWLEDGE
When you say "Anyone who writes articles for the wiki should be reading the comics they are writing about," you are referring to the use of common knowledge to a specific field. For instance, if you and I hang out and read Spider-Man comics together and talk about them all the time to the point you and I know this stuff down pat and don't need to reference any books to discuss it, it becomes common knowledge to our group.  The same can be said of a certain scientific fields where certain concepts, like the formula for calculating the acceleration of an object as it falls due to gravity, is something the students or lab techs no longer to find sources for if they wish to discuss it in a paper. 
 
WHY THAT'S A PROBLEM FOR COMICVINE 
I think why this is a problem here, is simply because we can't expect 100% of the editors to be comic scholars in this fashion.  It's a nice idea, but it limits your writer base in a way you shouldn't.  For instance, if I were to add a detail to the Scarlet Spider wiki, but couldn't remember whether or not Ben ever ended up sleeping with Mary Jane in any of the plot lines and decided to look it up on an official Marvel source or in one of their encyclopedias, I'd like to and should show that I used a source to find that tidbit of info, even if it came from a specific comic.  It might  be as simple as making a reference to the issue number, or it might be a reference to Marvel.com.   
  
SO MANY COMICS.
If I'm expected to know all of this info prior to writing anything, however, it limits how and what I can write.  Not to mention, researching the info is healthy since what I remember from reading so many different comics might be wrong or the history might have shifted so research is necessary to gather and use the facts (and that is, after all what wiki entries are--research papers).  This idea is particularly highlighted by a wiki entry on, say, Spider-Man where there must be literally thousands of different comics all creating different stories, plot-lines, and relationship dynamics.  Of course, I can always edit what I already know and leave the rest for someone else, but that leaves an incomplete product where a complete product could have been finished with some research and properly showing where the sources came from. 
 
LEGAL IMPLICATIONS 
Plagiarism is the intentional or unintentional use of any one else's words or ideas without proper citation whether or not the ideas are summarized or used in exact language.  This is largely an academic offense which gets students bad grades or, in extreme examples, thrown out of college.  The same kind of ethic in the work place could get a person fired or severely reprimanded through litigation.  Comicvine probably isn't at that risk, but considering that you now charge for some memberships, it is possible that a big publisher like Marvel might see a heavily plagiarized page as a copyright violation and determine that you're selling their ideas and then demand a portion of the earnings.  It might sound like a stretch, but Marvel has a specific link on their website to report the improper use of their material and as big of a company that they are (especially considering their owners, Disney) just assume that they have waaaaaaaay more resources to pour into a killer team of lawyers than you do.  In essence, just don't tempt them. 
 
FINAL REQUEST 
So here's my final request.  There's nothing wrong with people referencing other sources to help legitimize the nature of the information in their entry, in fact, having sources to back up an argument or story are the staple of good work in the work place and in academia every day, so long as the information is somehow properly cited.  Wikipedia cites sources, so there's no reason people should be upset if you do too (and Wikipedia also does it to keep from getting sued, though the population that could sue them is much much bigger so it's even more important).  Wikipedia uses footnotes to avoid cluttering up the article itself, and to provide the sources at the bottom of the page for people to reference for additional reading.  Comicvine is a fantastic place to get all sorts of info on just about every comic ever written, but there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to learn where everyone else is learning about comics.  Lastly, showing sources actually makes your wiki stronger because it shows outside sources that the editors aren't just making it up and they consulted move official sources in the process.
 
So, anyway, I agree that people should have a general knowledge of these things before diving in, but there should be both realistic and legal room to let them learn more and immediately use that information to improve the feel and presentation of the wiki entries on this site.  
#27 Posted by OrionStarlancer (126 posts) - - Show Bio
@jakob187: @jakob187 said:
" A lot of these pages need a little more love than just some headings.  I went through the Catwoman page and tried to pretty it up some with some general formatting, spelling and grammar, and such.  I didn't comb it with a fine tooth comb or anything, and I really need to work on some of the stuff at the bottom of that page.  However, there are pictures down there which can be difficult to work around without deleting and reuploading and such.  If it's one thing that I hate on my own wiki pages that I've put a lot of time in, it's when people delete stuff and then re-add it or whatever.  I will say, however, that people need to make sure they are not MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ON WIKI PAGES!!!  The Catwoman page specifically said that Catwoman was going to be in The Dark Knight Rises.  However, no one...not Nolan, Bale, Hardy, Hathaway, NOBODY...has stated that Catwoman will be in the movie - only Selina Kyle.  I changed up the piece in Catwoman's film history that stated "Anne Hathaway is signed on to play Catwoman and Bane is the main villain being played by Tom Hardy".  If I'm wrong on that, then hey...let me know, but that type of stuff doesn't work on some of the other Whiskey sites (like the Infamous ice-powers scandal). "
I absolutely agree.  This is partially why I think it would help to integrate some level of citation, which could have cleared up the Selina Kyle / Catwoman issue by saying something like the following:  
 
According to recent news sources, Anne Hathaway has been chosen to play Selina Kyle in The Dark Knight Rises, though no official statement has been issued regarding whether or not her character while take up her alter-ego, Catwoman.  Although Nolan has issued no official statement, some worry that this may echo Tim Burton's use of Billy Dee Williams as Havey Dent in Batman without ever later using him as Two-Face. 
 
After the first sentence there would be a superscript number that would refer to a reference at the bottom of the page (likely a link to some news source, ET, CNN, or Nolan's blog, etc) and the second sentence would also end with a superscript number that would coordinate to a reference likely to IMDB.  That way, as you've mentioned, if writers are projecting incorrect information, the readers can look it up for themselves and make their own judgements on the legitimacy of the source. 
 
Also, when it comes to the copy editing, I don't know if it has been fixed yet, but one of the things that turned me towards speaking about plagiarism was a wiki entry on Venom that was horribly written because the writer had completely copied the Marvel entry on Venom and then incorrectly changed every third word or so making it a jumbled mess.  I thought about correcting the English, but then realized that would probably just make it exactly like the Marvel entry and didn't feel like I had the time to re-write the entry from start to finish considering all the research I would have had to do to make sure it was both right and in my own words.  In the end, I felt like without citation, it just wasn't going to cut it.
#28 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@OrionStarlancer: In the future we may have a system for adding footnotes/sources, it would take some engineering resources.  We don't have that feature on any of our sites.  A feature I'd like even more is a way to see the history of wiki edits to the page, and be able to rollback bad edits.  As for sourcing and footnotes, I know all the reasons to do it, and ultimately they'd make Comic Vine a better, more mature wiki.   Until we can get  resources to do it though, I'd like to stick with the current plan which is to encourage people to only write about what they know from the comics they read.  For now, if we encourage our editors to do that, we'll be the most informed comic community in the galaxy.
Staff
#29 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio

Hi, 
I just attempted to fix Spider-woman's (Jessica Drew's) page in this way. Let me know what you think.

#30 Posted by Pokeysteve (8299 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.:  Couple more questions I don't think were addressed yet.  
 
1) How would you like us to handle the H2 sections on Mantle pages like Flash or Batgirl where there is multiple Origins, abilities and so on.   
2) Basically the same question but with team pages. Justice League and Avengers most notable. Justice League International, Europe, of America.  So many.  
 
How would you like those types of pages organized?  
 
@jakob187 said:
" A lot of these pages need a little more love than just some headings.  I went through the Catwoman page and tried to pretty it up some with some general formatting, spelling and grammar, and such.  I didn't comb it with a fine tooth comb or anything, and I really need to work on some of the stuff at the bottom of that page.  However, there are pictures down there which can be difficult to work around without deleting and reuploading and such.  If it's one thing that I hate on my own wiki pages that I've put a lot of time in, it's when people delete stuff and then re-add it or whatever.  I will say, however, that people need to make sure they are not MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ON WIKI PAGES!!!  The Catwoman page specifically said that Catwoman was going to be in The Dark Knight Rises.  However, no one...not Nolan, Bale, Hardy, Hathaway, NOBODY...has stated that Catwoman will be in the movie - only Selina Kyle.  I changed up the piece in Catwoman's film history that stated "Anne Hathaway is signed on to play Catwoman and Bane is the main villain being played by Tom Hardy".  If I'm wrong on that, then hey...let me know, but that type of stuff doesn't work on some of the other Whiskey sites (like the Infamous ice-powers scandal). "

I came to the bottom of that page while editing the headers and later found myself crying in the shower. Gives you a headache just looking at it but I didn't know what to do with it. Good luck to you brave sir =D
Online
#31 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks as if this is going well.

#32 Posted by Mercy_ (92697 posts) - - Show Bio
@xkoenig said:
" Hi, I just attempted to fix Spider-woman's (Jessica Drew's) page in this way. Let me know what you think. "
Looks good. I went in and right-aligned the images, but other than that it seems perfect.
Moderator
#33 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:
I just did the Conan page in the format, mind taking a look?
#34 Posted by Mercy_ (92697 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower: Darn good job!
Moderator
#35 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @Strafe Prower: Darn good job! "

Thanks, I mostly just rearranged it and made a few grammar tweeks, You can think Caluiga for the info. :)
#36 Edited by Rheged (620 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing I wanted to ask ... what is the optimum monitor screen resolution for this site?  Because I work off two computers, with two different resolutions, and the spacing between the paragraphs and even the position of the images is very different.  Meaning to look right on the wider screen, I end up putting extra spaces between paragraphs.
 
@jakob187 said:

" A lot of these pages need a little more love than just some headings.  I went through the Catwoman page and tried to pretty it up some with some general formatting, spelling and grammar, and such.  I didn't comb it with a fine tooth comb or anything, and I really need to work on some of the stuff at the bottom of that page.  However, there are pictures down there which can be difficult to work around without deleting and reuploading and such.  If it's one thing that I hate on my own wiki pages that I've put a lot of time in, it's when people delete stuff and then re-add it or whatever.  I will say, however, that people need to make sure they are not MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ON WIKI PAGES!!!  The Catwoman page specifically said that Catwoman was going to be in The Dark Knight Rises.  However, no one...not Nolan, Bale, Hardy, Hathaway, NOBODY...has stated that Catwoman will be in the movie - only Selina Kyle.  I changed up the piece in Catwoman's film history that stated "Anne Hathaway is signed on to play Catwoman and Bane is the main villain being played by Tom Hardy".  If I'm wrong on that, then hey...let me know, but that type of stuff doesn't work on some of the other Whiskey sites (like the Infamous ice-powers scandal). "

@Pokeysteve said:

I came to the bottom of that page while editing the headers and later found myself crying in the shower. Gives you a headache just looking at it but I didn't know what to do with it. Good luck to you brave sir =D "

 
Okay, I cleaned up the dreaded bottom of the Catwoman page.  O_O
 
I deleted some of those problematic pictures because there really was no way to clean up the text and the headers and the H2 and H3 tags without doing so.  I also deleted a few of the redundant H2 tag sections before Alternate Versions, except one that talked about the costumes and identity changes that I pasted into the various Character Evolution sections.  The bottom of the page should be in decent enough shape for folks to concentrate on the content instead of the formatting.
#37 Posted by Pokeysteve (8299 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rheged: The images need to be right aligned but other than that you did a beautiful job. Any idea how long it took you?
Online
#38 Posted by Rheged (620 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks!  I'm not sure.  I was watching TV while on the computer, so was distracted.  Maybe an hour or two.

#39 Posted by Digifiend (582 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pokeysteve said:
" @Rheged: The images need to be right aligned but other than that you did a beautiful job. Any idea how long it took you? "
Just right aligned all the images on the Catwoman page. :)
#40 Posted by Pokeysteve (8299 posts) - - Show Bio
@digifiend: Looks good. Finally can't of of anything else that needs to be done on it.
Online
#41 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio

Just tackled Psylocke, She-Hulk, Namora and Venus.

#42 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pokeysteve said:
" @Red L.A.M.P.:  Couple more questions I don't think were addressed yet.  
 
1) How would you like us to handle the H2 sections on Mantle pages like Flash or Batgirl where there is multiple Origins, abilities and so on.   
2) Basically the same question but with team pages. Justice League and Avengers most notable. Justice League International, Europe, of America.  So many.  
Just use the same H2 section titles.  Then in paragraph form you can explain the different origins.
Staff
#43 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio

Im adding in TEAM pages to the queue now.  The H2 section titles we need for those are almost identical to the Character pages.  Check out the official style guide here:   Comic Vine Wiki Style Guide

Staff
#44 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio

Whoever fixed the Ms. Marvel page did a great job - let me say that! 
I've been working on several more - Black Widow, She-Hulk, Namora, Rogue, Psylocke, Dazzler, Black Cat, Venus and Emma Frost. I hope these are ok.

#45 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

I just did the Wrecking Crew. I would add more to the page, but I haven't read that many issues with them in it.

#46 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@xkoenig said:
" Whoever fixed the Ms. Marvel page did a great job - let me say that! I've been working on several more - Black Widow, She-Hulk, Namora, Rogue, Psylocke, Dazzler, Black Cat, Venus and Emma Frost. I hope these are ok. "
@Strafe Prower said:
" I just did the Wrecking Crew. I would add more to the page, but I haven't read that many issues with them in it. "
You guys are doing a great job!   Hey everyone check out these pages if you want to see some good page formating: The Wrecking Crew and Namora
Staff
#47 Posted by Rheged (620 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.:   I know eventually you won't have these at all, as the Major Story arcs won't have headers.  However, when we are just trying to make the formatting uniform, do you want the Major Story Arc headers to be H3 tags?  Or do you want them to simply be bolded?  Or do you want them eliminated entirely?  Cause in the Style Guide you say you don't want them listed out as either H2 or H3 tags.

Character / Team 

Many people have added super long plot summaries -- that read like transcripts -- under the story arc section of the character/team articles.  Firstly, we have story arc pages, so ask yourself if the character page truly needs this section written out on the character page, or is it clearer to move it to the actual story arc page?  Secondly, don't list out story arcs as h2 or h3 section titles.  Just write about them under the "Major Story Arc" H2 section in paragraph form, and link the name of the story arc to the appropriate page.  In general the paragraphs explaining the "Major Story Arcs" should be connected to each other in a linear narrative.


#48 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rheged said:
" @Red L.A.M.P.:   I know eventually you won't have these at all, as the Major Story arcs won't have headers.  However, when we are just trying to make the formatting uniform, do you want the Major Story Arc headers to be H3 tags?  Or do you want them to simply be bolded?  Or do you want them eliminated entirely?  Cause in the Style Guide you say you don't want them listed out as either H2 or H3 tags.

Character / Team 

Many people have added super long plot summaries -- that read like transcripts -- under the story arc section of the character/team articles.  Firstly, we have story arc pages, so ask yourself if the character page truly needs this section written out on the character page, or is it clearer to move it to the actual story arc page?  Secondly, don't list out story arcs as h2 or h3 section titles.  Just write about them under the "Major Story Arc" H2 section in paragraph form, and link the name of the story arc to the appropriate page.  In general the paragraphs explaining the "Major Story Arcs" should be connected to each other in a linear narrative.


"
That's a good question.  The reason I don't want story arc titles to be H3 section headers is because it will encourage people to simply catalog ever single story arc regardless of whether it's important enough to deserve it's own subheader (h3).    Eventually we'd like the <H2>Major Story Arc</h2> section to be a discussion of the major story arcs, as a whole, as they relate to each other.  What we have now are just plot summaries -- which should appear on the story arc page.   
 
For now just leave them as H3.  But if you get inspired, then try to rewrite the entire section not as a plot summary but as discussion of the story(s) and why it's significant to the character.  Then the story arc names should just be mentioned within the paragraph and linked to the story arc page.  Any H3 subheader tags in the Major Story Arc page would then be descriptive titles to explain the major shifts between arcs. 
 
I know that's a long answer, and I don't have a good page to show you as an example yet.    Short answer leave them as H3s until we make a plan.
Staff
#49 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio

See the Booster Gold page for what to do when reformating a page and there is no info on the article, currently, that is about "Character Evolution".    We can leave a note to have people fill it out later, rather then leave out the "Character Evolution" title, and also rather then trying to make something that would be better put under the Major Story Arcs section fit.

Staff
#50 Posted by IrishX (2367 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm always afraid of even being accused of plagiarism so I don't do wiki editing except for little corrections and additions. One thing I have noticed on pages are a lot of personal bias but I suppose that is unavoidable.