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#1 Posted by JediXMan (29654 posts) - - Show Bio

Ares (DC) does not have his own page. Instead, all the information relating to the comic Ares has all but taken over the Public Domain Ares.

I think it only right that DC Ares get a page of his own. Especially since the PD page is mostly dedicated to him and not the mythological Ares anyway.

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#2 Posted by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

This falls under the No separate pages for alternate reality counterparts rule.

In general variants of public domain characters doesn't get separate pages until they have several hundreds of appearances, like marvels Thor or Hercules.

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#3 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak said:

This falls under the No separate pages for alternate reality counterparts rule.

In general variants of public domain characters doesn't get separate pages until they have several hundreds of appearances, like marvels Thor or Hercules.

DC Ares has about a hundred appearances, counting canon appearances as well as Elseworlds etc. Is that enough?

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#4 Edited by pikahyper (11532 posts) - - Show Bio

He may have a lot of appearances but I don't think the character is different enough to warrant his own page.

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#5 Edited by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

what of marvel's ares?

#6 Edited by JediXMan (29654 posts) - - Show Bio
@x35 said:

what of marvel's ares?

Indeed. If Marvel's Ares has a page, I don't see why DC's should not, considering he does differ from mythological Ares.

He may have a lot of appearances but I don't think the character is different enough to warrant his own page.

Zeus (Marvel)

Zeus (DC)

Zeus (Public Domain)

There is a severe issue with consistency, here.

I am not saying that there should be multiple Superman pages for his Elseworlds, but these are characters from completely different companies who did different things. Mythological Ares never met Wonder Woman, so it doesn't seem right that he is the one credited in all of DC Ares' appearances.

@fesak said:

This falls under the No separate pages for alternate reality counterparts rule.

In general variants of public domain characters doesn't get separate pages until they have several hundreds of appearances, like marvels Thor or Hercules.

DC Ares has about a hundred appearances, counting canon appearances as well as Elseworlds etc. Is that enough?

Especially considering PD Ares' page is mostly taken up by DC Ares information.

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#7 Posted by pikahyper (11532 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: DC's gods have always been more historically "accurate" and stick to the source material, other then meeting certain comic book characters their characters are not as divergent. That DC Zeus is fairly different as he is a magical being if I remember correctly. As for Marvel's Ares he diverges from source material to a large degree, all his time fighting on Earth and being part of the Avengers as a anti-hero, then there is everything with his son, more then enough to warrant his own page and if I remember correctly he originally didn't have his own page, he was part of the PD page at first and eventually he earned a split.

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#8 Posted by JediXMan (29654 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: DC's gods have always been more historically "accurate" and stick to the source material, other then meeting certain comic book characters their characters are not as divergent. That DC Zeus is fairly different as he is a magical being if I remember correctly. As for Marvel's Ares he diverges from source material to a large degree, all his time fighting on Earth and being part of the Avengers as a anti-hero, then there is everything with his son, more then enough to warrant his own page and if I remember correctly he originally didn't have his own page, he was part of the PD page at first and eventually he earned a split.

The vast majority of the appearances in the PD Ares page refer to the Wonder Woman villain, however. That should warrant its own page, considering how it already is essentially DC Ares' page. It even mentions Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Considering what a major impact Ares has had on Wonder Woman's history, he should get a page. He's different enough from mythological Ares at this point.

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#9 Posted by pikahyper (11532 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I don't see the need, someone just needs to add more info about the PD Ares to the page to even it out and reorganize it using the correct headers. Fesak already said no and I agree so that's what I'm sticking with.

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#10 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

marvel's pluto (hades) probably could be merged with hades

#11 Edited by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: DC's gods have always been more historically "accurate" and stick to the source material, other then meeting certain comic book characters their characters are not as divergent. That DC Zeus is fairly different as he is a magical being if I remember correctly. As for Marvel's Ares he diverges from source material to a large degree, all his time fighting on Earth and being part of the Avengers as a anti-hero, then there is everything with his son, more then enough to warrant his own page and if I remember correctly he originally didn't have his own page, he was part of the PD page at first and eventually he earned a split.

This is what Ares is currently like.

Seems very historically accurate. But sure, if you're sticking to it I guess there's no point.

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#12 Posted by pikahyper (11532 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: and as most people know I'm years behind on my mainstream comic reading, if he has changed fine then, it still hasn't been for very long, in the future it might be allowed but for right now it isn't.

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#13 Posted by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

DC's Zeus is merged into the public domain one, the link before is someone else. Marvels zeus should probably be merged too. There are a few other leftover pages like that, but we'll get to them eventually.

@x35 said:

marvel's pluto (hades) probably could be merged with hades

Roman and Greek gods are different though, kind of like Satan and Lucifer. Same, but not.

Anyway since in marvel those pantheons are merged and Pluto is a counterpart of both Pluto and Hades i didn't really know which one to merge him into.

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#14 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: well, some marvel olympians generally do use the roman names instead (like venus before she was retconned into her own thing). not sure why. stan lee couldn't tell them apart? pluto is hades in all but name.

also, did the mayan gods finally get sorted out? they were a goddamn mess circa when the mayan hulk story came out. 3 would be listed as marvel characters, 3 as A characters, 3 under different names, etc.

#15 Posted by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently he did little research on any mythological character, seems like those things wasn't so important back in the day.

Mayan gods should be listed under public domain, as all other mythological characters, but someone thinks they are marvel characters when they appear in hulk etc and changes the publisher. Feel free to change it back when you see it.

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#16 Edited by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, and having Pluto listed under pd Hades makes sense, but people will confuse it, so idk

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#17 Posted by matchesmalone21 (8420 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been taking a look in the pages of DC characters, and many dees were wrong commbinada with public domain characters, which causes great confusion and much beyond that, over 70 years of history has been erased by this monstruous error.

So I ask you guys what will be done to retrieve these pages? And what was written will be recovered? Is there any way of you prevent this from occurring again?

The list of the pages:

Ares:http://www.comicvine.com/ares/40070035-7/

Triton:http://www.comicvine.com/triton/4005-23511/

Deimos: http://www.comicvine.com/deimos/4005-15768/

Zeus:http://www.comicvine.com/zeus/4005-70036/

And half dozens of Dc Comic's Greek Gods

#18 Posted by matchesmalone21 (8420 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by pikahyper (11532 posts) - - Show Bio

@matchesmalone21: did you actually read the rest of the thread or did you just paste what you said in the PM here?

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#21 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a better application of this rule is that we should allow separate pages when there are significant differences in characters. As the primary editor for the Grimm Fairy Tales comics, I for instance can't see including all the Mowgli information on the PD Mowgli page, because the character is very different (different gender, different background.) How I would recommend that this is done is if a wiki editor feels that the character is deserving of a separate page, then they can be created. Grimm Fairy Tales is good example, because for instance there is the walking broom which doesnt deviate at all from the classic fairy tale, but other characters like Samantha Darren and Britney Waters do, even if they only have less than 30 appearances. Characters can have there own pages (though generally a good idea to run by a moderator first) and then be linked on the PD page with a bare amount of info.

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#22 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a better application of this rule is that we should allow separate pages when there are significant differences in characters. As the primary editor for the Grimm Fairy Tales comics, I for instance can't see including all the Mowgli information on the PD Mowgli page, because the character is very different (different gender, different background.) How I would recommend that this is done is if a wiki editor feels that the character is deserving of a separate page, then they can be created. Grimm Fairy Tales is good example, because for instance there is the walking broom which doesnt deviate at all from the classic fairy tale, but other characters like Samantha Darren and Britney Waters do, even if they only have less than 30 appearances. Characters can have there own pages (though generally a good idea to run by a moderator first) and then be linked on the PD page with a bare amount of info.

So.......DC Ares page?

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#23 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: I vote yes, in terms of access for a random person looking for information they are going to be confused by a huge wall of information, especially as has been pointed out, for a character that they might not appreciate comes from a different publisher. If they know which page to go for, then all the better for them, but if they don't then they can still find it under the PD version.

If there is going to be a separate page it is important to link the publisher specific page in the PD version though.

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#24 Edited by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: Cool. I'll make the page then and link it to the PD version with a small blurb.

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#25 Edited by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is what I wrote in the troubleshooter about a year ago:

The Public Domain can be tricky subject area. Essentially as soon as any company creates their own version of a character, they can get their own character page. However, really in terms of the content for the site there should be something really different about the character to distinguish them. One of the easiest examples of this are the characters from either Fables or Grimm Fairy Tales. These characters deviate so far from the original material that they almost always deserve their own page. If you are going to create a new page for one of them, then please reference the new character on the "In the Public Domain" page so that people searching the wiki can find them easily enough.

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#26 Posted by Outside_85 (8157 posts) - - Show Bio

Since there is a page for him now, it's probably not need I say this but;

The DC Ares is vastly different from his mythological inspiration.

DC's version, especially after the Perez reboot, is maclicious, cunning and a great schemer along with being the only truly evil god living on Olympus. The myth however... we he was a bit of a fool (Athena outwitted him and got him backing Troy while she backed the victorious Greeks) and mostly used by the Greeks to embody a host of poor personality traits, his only good aspect was that he was a deity of courage.

The effect is really that DC has taken the name, place of origins and title of the mythological Ares and made him far worse and far more capable than he ever was in the myths. Plus on the visual side Perez stuffed him in a medieval suit of armor, making him appear more like Sauron than the mythological Ares.

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#27 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

Created a new Ares page, added blurbs for both DC and Marvel Ares to the PD page.

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#29 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the new Ares is very much like the mythology Ares. I really only see the need for Marvels and the Public Domain. I mean Do we really want to search for a ton of Ares to find just the god?

#30 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

also i say if they have the same name and the real name is the same, then why bother making a new page. also all the stuff on the sides is basically the same. are they both men? are the both god/eternal? do they have the same powers? YES, YES YES!

#31 Edited by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

@fables87: Because of the character history. If you look at for instance the Dejah Thoris, it is a bit screwy because the information comes from numerous different publishers and so there is not one consistent continuity for her. However, with Dejah Thoris the character is still based on Mars, in pulp sci-fi setting, where she is the Princess of Helium. In terms of DC Ares, the character is very much different from other forms. Marvel Ares and PD Ares do not interact with Wonder Woman in a very specific way, and to do this justice the character needs his own page.

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#32 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: The only thing is there are so many public domain characters that comic books use and change the stories. I feel like if DC Ares has his own page then every single god in Wonder Woman should. Isn't he part of the Olympian gods? Meaning that team is goiong to have two Areses on there.

#33 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

@fables87: The problem is that he is a major villain of Wonder Woman. One time he tried to seize the entire nuclear arsenal of the Earth to convince humans to fight more. This doesn't fit with the PD version or the Marvel version.

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#34 Posted by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

That's not how the staff wants it done though. Dc's Ares is supposed to be the mythological Ares and there are many public domain characters whose incarnations are more different and still only have one page. What we really should do is to merge marvels Ares into the pd one too.

And many of the Zenescope characters shouldn't have separate pages.

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#35 Posted by JediXMan (29654 posts) - - Show Bio

@fables87: The problem is that he is a major villain of Wonder Woman. One time he tried to seize the entire nuclear arsenal of the Earth to convince humans to fight more. This doesn't fit with the PD version or the Marvel version.

This is exactly why I made this thread in the first place (though it's continued without my help, which I'm glad to see).

@fables87 said:

do they have the same powers? YES, YES YES!

They don't. Mythological Ares, Marvel Ares, and DC Ares have different personalities and history.

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#36 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak said:

What we really should do is to merge marvels Ares into the pd one too.

oh gosh, imagine the debates over which ares should get the privilege of the main pic O_o

let em have their ares page if it stops their bellyaching.

#38 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: Thank You! What I've been saying this entire time. I mean you type in Ares now and why too many of them pop up. It's like having a separate page for ever League of Extraordinary Gentlemen character. Yes some of them are different form there counterpart, but isn't that the universe thing? DC's and Marvel's Aes are like that basically. For Public Domain you should only make new characters if they are completely different or they are a combo of two characters, like how Fables works with Maddy.

#39 Edited by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

Also I should point out that the Golden Age Wonder Woman is very different from the New 52 Wonder Woman. Yet there aren't two Wonder Woman pages. Why? Like I said they are essentially the same person, different worlds.

#40 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

The searchability of the characters is pointless. Try to find PD Thor.

The reason GA Wonder Woman and modern Wonder Woman are on the same page is that it is the evolution of the same character. Marvel Ares did not merge into DC Ares at some point.

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#41 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Posted by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

The searchability of the characters is pointless. Try to find PD Thor.

The reason GA Wonder Woman and modern Wonder Woman are on the same page is that it is the evolution of the same character. Marvel Ares did not merge into DC Ares at some point.

What does that even mean, you write thor in the search bar..?

Marvels and DCs Ares are evolutions of the same character.

Why should we allow this and not separate pages of New 52 or Ultimate characters?

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#43 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: I am not trying to make decisions, just trying to have a discussion. I agree with the alt character idea, though not so much when it is alt publishers. Only Marvel can decide what happens to Ultimate Wolverine, but numerous companies can decide what happens to Ares.

By the way, my search for Thor did not turn up the same as yours. That is strange.

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#44 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: there are options to just search characters.

#45 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

@fables87: Yes, I think you are approaching this from the standpoint of informed user. The search results are based on someone that has never seen the wiki bfore

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#46 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@fables87: One time he tried to seize the entire nuclear arsenal of the Earth to convince humans to fight more. This doesn't fit with the PD version or the Marvel version.

Actually that exact plot did happen with Marvel's Ares !

#47 Edited by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

also idk some of the train of thought in this thread leads down the path of wanting to also eventually merge thor and hercules into the public domain ones which honestly would just make a mess of things. there's far too much data for characters like that to be merged into another page where they would easily take up 90% of the page. idk if the same can be said for DCs Ares...

Also, on the topic of merging Marvel's Ares, this might sway in faovr of it, but almost his entire page is verbatim taken from a handbook

but i do think merging marvel's ares would be a bit awkward...and before it's even a consideration, you'd wanna hit up merging marvel's zeus anyway. his contribution has rarely gone beyond being the olympian god man.

#48 Posted by RazzaTazz (9479 posts) - - Show Bio

I would be for getting rid of a separate Zeus as well.

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#49 Posted by fables87 (946 posts) - - Show Bio

But what I don't get is can't that all just be added to history of the PD character and one half that stuff isn't even necessary to add. the wiki should contain everything about one character. just the most important stuff. if you want the full histories read the comics. and still what about the league of extraordinary gentlemen characters. none of them have different pages and they have long histories too that change there character. because it happened have we saw them in the novel. i mean you got prospero part of the league and a fable. because it's the same guy, different worlds and different takes on authors, but essentially the same guy. plus pubic domain means everyone can use it. it's free and it's a perfect way t change the story without getting sued. so there for we see many different ares and none of them are alike. like most of the gods used in comics.

#50 Posted by pikahyper (11532 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35: we would never even think about merging Thor or Hercules into PD's, too many search hits.

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