#1 Posted by DonFelipe (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

I tried to find an answer in existing threads but couldn't find any. The only thread with a similar question I did find is about adding characters who only appear in flashbacks or as shadows and have a non-speaking role. So here's my question:

Should characters be added to an issue if they only make an appearance on the regular cover/variant?

I would say no in both cases: regular and variant covers. Many covers are misleading and have nothing to do with the actual story and in such case, the character should not be added to that issue as he/she isn't part of the story. It would be pointless!

Example:

Cable and X-Force #7 (2013)

This is one of those useless variant covers labeled "Many Armors of Iron Man" that seems to be promoting the upcoming movie, I think. I don't like these unrelated variants to begin with.

In the story neither of the 5 characters - FFF, Iron Man, Living Laser, Mandarin, Titanium Man - makes an appearance, nor does any armor of Iron Man.

However, someone added all of them to the issue; plus "Many Armors of Iron Man" as concept.

My guess is someone tagged these characters without even reading the comic, assuming they would appear in it whatsoever.

#2 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@donfelipe: cover appearances still count, I'm the one that added them and the concept and I did not assume they were in the issue, I knew they were only cover appearances.

I'm hoping eventually that the engineers will add roles to the character associations like with creators so we can mark an appearance as full, cameo, cover only, flashback, mentioned, etc. I think it will be an incredibly useful feature.

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#3 Edited by fesak (7052 posts) - - Show Bio

Used to be that it doesn't count as an appearance if they're not appearing in the actual comic, when did this change if it did?

As said it doesn't make much sense to list those appearing only on a variant cover, especially since marvel has those themes every other month. It's very misleading.

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#4 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak said:

It's very misleading.

tbf so are the covers...

#5 Posted by wmwadeii (3249 posts) - - Show Bio

@donfelipe: @pikahyper: @fesak: @x35: I read that it was Ok but that their should be a note in the summary stating that they only appear on the cover. I do however like what Pika mentioned with roles, would evenlike an alias option for example you add a character by their alias say Galvatron for Megatron it would show that name instead.

#6 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: its been this way for as long as I can remember, I remember heated debates about what counts and what doesn't, coulda swore you were part of them, my feature suggestion would be ideal though and fairly easy to implement.

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#7 Posted by montydapunk.k (65 posts) - - Show Bio

If a character appears even in a single panel he should be added. Can't say the same if he appears only on the cover.

#8 Edited by fesak (7052 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: its been this way for as long as I can remember, I remember heated debates about what counts and what doesn't, coulda swore you were part of them, my feature suggestion would be ideal though and fairly easy to implement.

I have no memory of that rule ever being changed though.

Well, that's another thing that's been promised since cv 1.0

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#9 Edited by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: I dunno, I Just know that everyone does it including aztek.

Well I'll be pushing for it even more now :D

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#10 Edited by fesak (7052 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think everyone does it or we wouldn't discuss it.

What is the point of tagging an issue with a character that doesn't appear in it? Especially if it's a variant cover, so my version of the comic might not have that character at all. What if it's a very limited variant cover with random characters on it?

And on the other hand multiple publishers would look awfully cluttered on public domain characters like Santa Claus that has been published by pretty much all publishers.

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#11 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: I see more people doing it then not, mostly the more established editors.

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#12 Posted by fesak (7052 posts) - - Show Bio

So, to clarify; we should tag characters in issues they have nothing to do with?

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#13 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

they are still making an appearance, just so happens it is just the cover, as X35 said the covers are already misleading as it is, from time to time even main covers have characters on them that don't appear in the comic.

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#14 Edited by wmwadeii (3249 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: And they should be noted in the summary that they only appear on the cover if this is the case.

#15 Edited by Billy Batson (57971 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

so by this logic when people get artists to draw random unrelated characters on sketch variants they should count.

and please don't use my point to justify this stupidity

#17 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

nah that shouldn't count because it isn't official art, by most accounts those covers shouldn't really even be added.

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#18 Posted by fesak (7052 posts) - - Show Bio

There are official covers that exists in <10 copies, do those count?

How about those covers marvel had in the eighties when they had a border with ~50 character faces?

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#19 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

probably should, the only ones I'm iffy on is the very rare artist sketch ones where each copy of a limited run (usually under a hundred) had a unique hand drawn sketch of a character related to the series, I don't remember this happening more then a handful of times though.

technically should but seems unnecessary, would work better if a concept was created for it then link the concept to all the characters that appeared in the frames. Either that or we could redefine what constitutes an appearance by a character and that it must be more then just their head.

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#20 Edited by RazzaTazz (9611 posts) - - Show Bio

The direction I have in the troubleshooter is to include them. If we didn't people would put them in anyway. It does create a mess of an issue sometimes for things like COIC covers. What should be done every time that a character is added in from either a cover or an alt cover is leave a note explaining why the character appears on the issue page and not in the issue itself. It happens all the time with Grimm Fairy Tales. If we want to reverse the decision that is fine too, but I do side more towards inclusion. Some people have those debates about "Who is everyone on this cover?" and this can help to answer it, and seeing as we are a comic book site trying to be inclusive of as much information as possible then we should go for it. It can be information overload, but the issue pages can be like that anyway. Some people might be after every appearance of a specific character as well, even if it is on alt covers. Those would be the two main reasons for inclusion.

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#21 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

so what next? should spider-man be tagged every time he appears in the barcode box too? ¬_¬

#22 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

oh or how about we tag hulk every time he was in a hostess advert

#23 Edited by jloneblackheart (5507 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a fan of counting cover appearance as appearance. I also thought that it did not count as an appearance.

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#24 Edited by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35: you just love your extremes

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#25 Edited by wmwadeii (3249 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say the only cover appearance would be the actual art on the cover. Images like Spider-man on the barcode, or frames with multiple IMO shouldn't count as they are an advertising/sales gimmick. I do like the option of having them listed, again only if the note is added, there are collectors that might want every "cover" a character appears in, for say display, or even competionists.

#26 Edited by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35: you just love your extremes

extremes like tagging iron man with 30 comics he doesn't appear in at all.

#28 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@wmwadeii said:

shouldn't count as they are an advertising/sales gimmick

yeah, sales gimmicks like this.

#29 Posted by wmwadeii (3249 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35: While this is a form of gimmick, I as thinking more along your prior comment of Spider-man. Because they show a full scene I think some collectors would still like to have an easy way to find these cover appearances. What would be nice is if the engineers can add like @pikahyper: mentioned of having roles assigned like creators. I think even an option when we add covers to say what type of cover it is along with artist and chatacters. Unfortunately my option would probably require more coding, and a new tab/page on each characters page to show cover appearances.

#30 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

i think fixing this broken site is far more important that implementing all of pika's ideas.

#31 Posted by SC (12989 posts) - - Show Bio

I motion that Mystique be added to all comics even on Marvel comics since technically we don't if she isn't on covers just in disguise, and The One Above All and Presence should also be added in every Marvel and DC comic book respectively, since they definitely appear on covers even if you can't see them, because they are defined as existing beyond our senses including sight and if not added a whole separate section or tab could be added to the site just in case people who want to collect appearances of those characters... sorry don't mind me just taking the mickey ahem heh heh. Though characters appearing on covers solely especially variants that have like 50 characters with each character a little face with no connection to internal contents seems a bit odd but I don't tend to work in this part of CV wiki so **shrugs**

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#32 Edited by Saren (25628 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not exactly an established editor or even a regular one, but when I get really interested in a character I like to read all their appearances in chronological order. CV's issues system helps with this, but reading so many issues and searching everywhere for a glimpse of the character because someone tagged them in the issue on the basis of them appearing on the cover is aggravating.

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#33 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

@pikahyper said:

@x35: you just love your extremes

extremes like tagging iron man with 30 comics he doesn't appear in at all.

that's not extreme, tagging Spider-Man cause he was in the barcode is extreme. and Iron Man did actually appear in a couple of the comics if I remember correctly.

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#34 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by Billy Batson (57971 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not exactly an established editor or even a regular one, but when I get really interested in a character I like to read all their appearances in chronological order. CV's issues system helps with this, but reading so many issues and searching everywhere for a glimpse of the character because someone tagged them in the issue on the basis of them appearing on the cover is aggravating.

The same could be said about non-speaking one panel cameos :p

BB

#36 Edited by Saren (25628 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

I'm not exactly an established editor or even a regular one, but when I get really interested in a character I like to read all their appearances in chronological order. CV's issues system helps with this, but reading so many issues and searching everywhere for a glimpse of the character because someone tagged them in the issue on the basis of them appearing on the cover is aggravating.

The same could be said about non-speaking one panel cameos :p

BB

Yeah.

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#37 Edited by DonFelipe (1096 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for all the comments!

I think the best answer and solution to my question and basic problem would be...

@pikahyper said:

I'm hoping eventually that the engineers will add roles to the character associations like with creators so we can mark an appearance as full, cameo, cover only, flashback, mentioned, etc. I think it will be an incredibly useful feature.

I like your idea and believe it could be done quickly. The feature already exists (with creators) and one only has to alter a few modules and add another table or two in the database. That can't take too long!

What roles would be useful/needed?

  • full (default if nothing else is chosen)
  • cameo
  • cover only
  • variant only
  • flashback
  • flash-forward
  • mentioned
  • non-speaking

Just like with the roles for creators, multiple selections should be possible, too.

#38 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

@donfelipe: extremely easy to implement but like fesak mentioned I guess it has been a promised feature since CV 1.0, only one more field would have to be added to the database and then the function for creator roles could be copied and pasted and the table/field names updated and the roles changed, I can't image it taking more then 15 minutes but the problem is getting an engineer that isn't already super busy, I've been talking to them and I know some of the stuff they are working on now and it is time consuming.

I'd add a few more to your list:

  • first appearance
  • death
  • pictured (still pictures, on a monitor)
  • communication (phone, text message, email)
  • parody/homage (extremely useful)

it would take a little more work but the first appearance/death role could be used to populate character pages instead of the automated way (for first appearances at least).

Eventually it might even be good to expand the roles to teams, locations and objects as well, that kind of detail on a page could be very useful for a lot of reasons.

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#39 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

how do you even deduce who is appearing on a cover. for example these iron man variants, how do you even know who is in the armor. in fact, there's no context at all so for all we know the armor might not evevn be manned. and then there's case like i bet you just lazily tagged War Machine on the cover that had the War Machine armor even though Stark wore the armor first. Likewise i bet you missed the Teen Tony cover and tagged Iron Man instead.

#40 Posted by pikahyper (11963 posts) - - Show Bio

I based who I tagged on who wore that specific armor, I stopped adding variant characters like two weeks ago so give it a rest.

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