@micah said:
@buttersdaman000 said:
Fair enough, but really, why would that be such a bad thing?? Everyone, save omnipotent characters, needs their kryptonite. I don't think it would be such a bad thing if a "low level" telepath for instance can contend with Goku in the right conditions, just like an energy manipulator can contend with Superman. I mean, like with Superman, there are always ways to circumvent weaknesses. If Goku was weak to telepathy, and you're in a BF debate, just resort to speed blitz, IDK.
It's a bad thing because you'll never see someone like Superboy Prime, Odin, or Mr Majestic being dropped by a low level telepath. All characters Goku can stand side by side with or at least close to in terms of raw power. But as you said every character needs their kryptonite, it's just that for as powerful as Goku is it would make more sense if that weakness came from a high level telepath or another strange ability. I think this should be the case for all Top characters, even Superman has SOME degree of mental protection to ward off weak telepaths even if he's still vulnerable to telepathic attacks.
Well, I disagree with them being multi-solar system level since we JUST saw star destruction in Super, a feat below solar system. But, it's off topic.
Well Cell was in fact Solar System Level. Something I know you'd disagree with because he never destroyed the Solar System, but Akira's writing style is simple. He makes it clear when a character is bluffing or lying, secondly all guidebooks (not the Daizenshuu, current ones) state at his max he was in fact Solar System Level, and lastly Akira actually addressed the controversy before in an interview with a response that was basically "so your going to argue with the writer?"
I don't mean to start an argument about this, I just wanted to say my piece.
Again, though, I don't see weaknesses as a bad thing. Maybe not a complete lack of defenses as you said, but if I wanna argue that someone like SS mind jacks Goku in a battle, I shouldn't have dozens of fanboys getting pissy that he has vulnerabilities.
And if you were to argue that I'd be fine with it, heck I might even support you. I just think it would be better if Surfer had to apply effort to "mind jack" him instead of just casually doing this to such a powerful opponent.
But you'd see Superboy Prime being dropped by darkness and kyrptonite quick af, as well as dozens of characters stronger than him.
Odin has magical prophecies and whatnot that double as weaknesses like the Odin sleep for example.
Mr. Majestic, I don't think he has any weaknesses per say, but in his universe he also has telepaths capable of taking him down(I think).
True but those are specialty weaknesses for them (minus Prime being physically overpowered, which is not a weakness similar to what were talking about). Nothing like Telepathy, which for all intents and purposes is a common ability.
I'm not saying that somebody like Matt Parkman should be able to drop him, but when you specify that you only want high level telepathy, reality warpers, matter manipulators or whatever to be able to affect Goku it just makes me think that you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. As far as Superman, he went through years of mental training to be able fight off telepaths and even then no writer really acknowledges that. Usually, when he fights off telepaths, its through mental fortitude and will.
I think you get it now, I just don't want someone like Matt Parkman to drop him it just doesn't make sense for a character as powerful as Goku to go down to someone like him, but people will argue he does largely because he has little to no TP Resistance to speak of. But I think we understand each other on this, so we can close this point.
I'll say it time and time again, you can't change the rules of debate/proof to accommodate the writing style of DBZ. It's that simple. You'll notice that now that we have actual proof of these feats, nobody is contending the FACT that Goku is galaxy+ level?
I disagree, plenty are still contending the fact that Goku is at least galaxy+ level. Just go check out some of the recent battles, thing is in terms of the feats were using to label Goku Galaxy+ Goku and Beerus still didn't destroy the Universe even though they were stated to be capable of doing just that. This case is no different than Cells tbh, villain is stated to be strong enough to destroy something, then hero challenges attack overpowers said attack and prevents the destruction. Yet we are fine with accepting this with Beerus and not Cell even though both cases are the same. You will probably bring up the fact that we saw shockwaves with Goku and Beerus example but we saw visual representation for Cell as well and he was implied to have received an enormous boost in power. I think it's just a case of not wanting to admit SS2 level characters who are now bugs compared to current Goku were capable of Solar System annihilation.
Here a statement from traskindustries about Galaxy Level DB
"
I dont know why you think I'm some Saint Seiya fan, I'm just here to keep you DB wankers in check, when you start spouting some insane bs like Beerus or Goku are universal level. Theyre not even galaxy level via feats, only with statements and hyperbole. That might be fine for DB wankers, but its not an acceptable feat on Battles-board. Also using non-canon material as a source for feats is just pathetic.
Anyway, I'm sorry that your favorite ultra mega kamehame ha gods arent as powerful as you thought. Carry on, buddy."
People disagree. Plenty of people...........
ically boils down to Akira being the writer, then battle forums will just become people using "writer" versions of characters without the legitimate proof to back it up."
Well as I said previously all of the current Guidebooks back up Cell's claim (which for several debates I've been in is the reason many will accept the claim). Even before Battle of the Gods Akira stated that Cells claim was in fact true, and if it helps several of the games which he wrote the scripts for even show Cell destroying the Solar System with his Solar Kamehameha.
Like, i'll use Chris Robinson Superman, because according to him, Superman reaction and speed extends beyond the attosecond range. Or, Kevin Grievoux, the creator of Blue Marvel, who intended for him to be stronger than Superman and Thor, yet never wrote a feat to back that claim up. Sorry, but regardless of what Akira said, actions still trump words, and it took him 20+ years to even show a star blowing up.
Yet most agree Hyperion has Universal Strength even though we only saw him holding back two planets and not something that could be called two entire universes. Which has actually been argued before, the only reason Hyperion is accepted for being as powerful as he is comes from statements from the author. Statements that have been used before in CAV's and accepted as valid evidence. You can talk about completely disregarding the author's input but at that point your just putting yourself above the writer. For your examples when you analyze everything its a case of you or another debater simply not wanting to accept said character is stronger than a character with 100's of feats, when the former just has a statement or so. It's also worth noting that your examples aren't necessarily the best since manga and comics function much differently from each other. The most obvious being Goku has one consistent script writer and progresses on a linear ladder, while Superman has 100's of different writers to have taken a stab at writing him and has a status quo that can radically change each week and while you can attempt to argue it's the same case with DBZ it's still to MUCH lesser degree.
So, as far as i'm concerned, on panel evidence is the end-all-be-all, and Cell was not a Solar System buster, just a overly cocky villain who as boasting about his strength.....something he did more than a few times anyways. Basically, writers/creators aren't infallible. If that weren't the case, George Lucas would still be in control of his universe.
While I agree Feats>Statements, I do not support completely tossing writer input to the side with such a complete disregard of authority. If you want you can check Kaizenshuu for the interview I keep referencing, but Akira himself was flabbergasted that internet folk were acting like they know more about Cell than he does.
Again, I think this is just a case of you wanting your cake and eating it too. Why should SS have to apply any effort to mind jack somebody like Goku???
I thought we addressed this. For a character as powerful as Goku is it wouldn't make sense for him to just be dropped by casual low-level TP. Now if Sufer used his TP to a higher level to bring down such a powerful opponent it would make much more sense.
Anyway this is my last reply. I'm starving now and the Thanksgiving food is finally here lol. Happy Thanksgiving.
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