@denam_pavel said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:
@denam_pavel said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:
@denam_pavel said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:
@denam_pavel said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:
@denam_pavel said:
@nathaniel_christopher said:
Who would want Dick to go to Hong Kong when he just got to Chicago? Considering there are always people unhappy with the idea of him being Robin, Red Robin, or even Batman again, I can't see anyone happy with him becoming Black Bat. Not Dick Grayson fans, and especially not Cassandra Cain fans.
Chicago is exceptional in it's unchecked hatred of vigilantes. Nightwing did not even need to commit his first crime before they felt justified to send a policehelicopter after him to strafe him down without even asking him to surrender. If Dick Grayson decides to live in Chicago after Forever Evil he is going out of his way to find misery.
He went to Chicago to find Zucco, not peace. And him operating in a city that hates and fears him is remarkably similar to Batman in his early days, when the city was more corrupt and the idea of a vigilante was simply not accepted in Gotham. It's one of the things of his origin I wouldn't mind Dick gaining, as it shows a fair amount of patience and maturity to stay in a city that doesn't want you, because it's quite simply the right thing to do.
He HAS found Zucco. The Prankster ends up in Arkham so I assume that matter will have been dealt with by Forever Evil. And how is it the right thing to do. The Prankster was literally the only masked villain left operating in Chicago. I have a hard time imaging how they are going to convincingly portray Nightwing as a postive presence there after the Prankster is gone. Will the Chicago PD become inexplicably much much more inept upon his arrival?
The Prankster was the only masked vigilante we've seen operating in Chicago. Considering how huge a deal it was for Nightwing to completely move there and start over there, I highly doubt that the Pranksters is the only villain writers want him to face. And a superhero in the city doesn't mean the cops have to be written as or suddenly become inept. Anyone who's read Gotham Central knows that. As I pointed out already, the city hating vigilantes isn't an excuse for him to be taken away from it either, especially when you consider he was sent there with that in mind, and that he's not the only one who's had to deal with a city that's not the most open to his presence. Sending him off to Honk Kong is a complete waste.
I don't want him in Hong Kong either, that'd be even more preposterously far out of his way and random. But Gotham Central is in no way an example. Gotham needed Batman, that was very clear. Bruce knew as much, that's why he started there. As far as Nightwing very explicietly knows he and Pranksters are the only masks active in Chicago, there were others, the police shut all the others down. If the Nightwing on going continues in Chicago that is going to change and the police's capacity to shut them down is also going to change. I know some heros tend to create their own villains but this is on a whoooole other level of conciously bringing hell down Chicago. And just because some vigilante dealt with a city that doesn't want them there doesn't mean every vigilante should go travel to cities that don't want them there and start rubbing it in peoples noses.
You missed my point. The reason I brought up Gotham Central was to give examples of Police Officers who were competent at their jobs. Yes, Obviously Gotham still needed Batman, yet Batman can't be everywhere at once, and normal Policemen are still able to deal with various cases on there own. That's my point, that just because Nightwing's in Chicago now, doesn't mean that the police have to be written as non-factors in the city's safety, or incompetent, when that's not what happens in Gotham itself, and yet in the DCU Gotham's the biggest example of a city that didn't want a vigilante and was plagued with police corruption at one point. Again, they didn't want a vigilante at first, yet due to the new wave of crime that entered the city, they needed one and eventually accepted him. I'm saying the exact same thing can very easily happen in Chicago, and that that's probably the path Dick's being taken down when you consider that him being sent there was marketed very heavily as a new change for the character.
When did I say that other vigilantes should travel to cities that don't want them there? The point is that Nightwing's already there and actively working in the city now. Him leaving to go somewhere else would make absolutely no sense.
Oh, and in terms of a city needing Superheros, the entire point of being a hero is going anywhere where there's crime and helping where you can. Both Batman and Superman started helping their respective cities because there was crime there and they felt they could have a positive influence. Any level of crime fits the description, there don't have to be supervillans there, because there certainly weren't supervillains in Gotham or Metropolis before Superman and Batman showed up. Just because there aren't such villains in a city doesn't mean that superheros have no place there.
There was no new crimewave. Bruce became Batman to combat to combat the existing crime. Gotham PD wasn't incompetent but they are and always had been unable to combat the crime in Gotham. Chicago is not portrayed as the city in desperate need of help that Gotham and Bludhaven were. And he's not already there, he's in captivity somewhere else and if Grid hasn't teleported over and eviserated Thomas leaving Dick without an apartment by now then the Syndicate is being tremendously lazy.
And Dick is NOT in same situation Batman was in when he first started. Gotham PD didn't really feel one way or another about vigilantes when Batman began; he and Superman started the whole thing. Chicago have made up their mind about the whole thing in spite of the JLs accomplishment and public endorsement and now unlike with Batman, they know exactly who Nightwing is.
And no, a superhero doesn't need supervillains in his city. But he will invariably get them nonetheless. And so will Nightwing. Chicago will very abrubtly find itself infested with masked villains again if Nightwing goes down this road.
Read the Long Halloween and Dark Victory. Both show the classical criminal elements slowly fading away in the face of a new wave of crime, a new type of criminal, ergo Supervillains.
My point is that Gotham Central specifically shows that Cops aren't incompetent just because there are heroes in their city. Obviously there are levels of crime they can't handle, which is when the superheroes step in. However, that counters your point about the Chicago PD. You questioned whether or not they'd be written as incompetent just because Nightwing's in there city now. I'm giving you an actual example of that not happening, with Batman and the Gotham PD coexisting and working together. Batman takes out the major threats and the police pick up the smaller threats, specifically so he can be free to take down the Joker when the clown goes on another rampage.
Just because Chicago hasn't currently been shown to suffer from major crime doesn't mean that it doesn't have it. Also, what's happening in Forever Evil is taking place apart from what's happening in Nightwing's own comic, as confirmed by the writer in an interview, so yes he is in Chicago right now as far as his series is concerned.
Have you not read Batman Year One? Gotham PD outright attempted to arrest Batman numerous times. They felt just as any police group in our world would about him, as in seeing him as a menace taking the laws into his own hands. That's pretty much exactly how Dick's seen now, a masked vigilante who isn't wanted. And really, that's something new and interesting that Dick's never had to deal with before, and no other hero is currently dealing with. That was one of the most marketed aspects of Nightwing's new path, operating in a city that's against Superheros, but staying and dealing with it regardless. This is exactly the kind of thing character's should be going through, being taken down paths they've never been before for newer and interesting stories. Will Dick's life be more difficult there? Absolutely, and in the end that makes for a better payoff for the fans when the story reaches its eventual conclusion. Nobody wants to read about a hero who never struggles with anything.
And your point is? That Dick should leave Chicago so they don't get new supervillains? I highly doubt that's going to happen. As I pointed out, no superhero stays in a city because of supervillains. They stay because they feel they can have a positive impact on the city itself, because there's crime everywhere. Supervillains not being there are the moment is irrelevant. Superheroes gain supervillains in their cities because its a fictional story that's being written in a modern age where supervillains are the norm. If Dick went to Hong Kong as someone suggested, or New York, or Miami, or any other city in the DC World, I guarantee that despite whatever Yakuza thugs and drug rings were already there in the area, supervillains would be written into the story for Dick to combat, because he's a Superhero, so wherever he goes there's going to be a Supervillain. Arguing that he should leave to prevent that happening is pointless, as it'd just happen anywhere else he went regardless.
ARREST him yes. Not gun him down before he even did anything close to breaking and entering or disrupting a police investigation. And Batman: Year One takes place at beginning of the superhero era. Chicago used to have several masked vigilantes it takes place years after the establishment of the Justice League Nightwing takes place at a time when Stargirl is shaking hands with the President. And they still have a far more hardline approach then anything the cops in Batman: Year One got up too. In Batman: Year One nobody knew what Batman was about yet. When they did, sentiment changed. Chicago knows exactly what Nightwing is about and still wants him dead.
And in Gotham Central BATMAN is barely even a thing. The police are the main characters giving them the room to show their unreliant competence.
And in Nightwing he's still dealing with Zucco and the Prankster. I'm pretty sure what happened to Nightwing in Forever Evil 1 is intended to effect his character in his solo later on. And yeah if he showed up in New York or Hong Kong there would be supervillains there. So far the writers haven't gone out of their way to show that there currently aren't so I don't have a problem with that. With Chicago they have. And I'm not saying Nightwing should conciously decide to leave for the reason that supervillains will otherwise appear there. I'm saying the writer should make him not go back there because otherwise they'd inevitably write in things that have already been established to not be a thing in Chicago anymore.
And you are blowing this supposed marketing campaign concerning Nightwing way the hell out of proportion. You know what's been marketed? TRINITY WAR. Which wasn't a war at all. Just a six-part crossover where Wonder Woman and Batman are at odds. The splashpanels they showcased months in advance tured out to be literally the ONLY times the three Justice Leagues were in a large engagement with each other. Nightwing will have been in Chicago about as long as Justice League of America lasted. Which had much much more attention and marketing then Nightwing's big move ever did.
Uh, except they also tried to gun him down as well. This was after maybe his first few appearances, where he was maybe the first or second costumed vigilante to appear and people had no experience with them whatsoever. That obviously wouldn't be the case with any hero, new or old, nowadays, as heroes and villains are everywhere. So Chicago still wants Dick dead, what's your point exactly?
Exactly my point, the police are written as completely competent to deal with the threats at their level, yet the shadow of the Bat is still present in the city, so once again, Nightwing operating in Chicago wouldn't mean the police would have to be portrayed as incompetent.
Except they new all of this before they sent him there, but still sent him there, and established that the city not liking him would be a major part of his comic from now on, so they're clearly ready to deal with that aspect as it'll effect the character. What's more, establishing that there are currently no supervillains there is as easy to change as the color of Dick's costume.
It could effect his solo later on, doesn't mean he'll leave Chicago though, and he's once again still there right now as far as his series is concerned.
As far as it concerns Dick's character, the move to Chicago was heavily marketed since Death of the Family started, and was talked about in terms of getting the character outside of Gotham. Not sure how i'm exaggerating, but that's what happened, and again him being in a city that doesn't like heroes was one of the main aspects DC focused on and fans were interested about. The majority of the readers were happy about it, and still seem to be happy about it. The interviews they gave focusing on Dick and his comic all focused on Chicago, and all have come true. Just because Trinity War was mostly a flop that doesn't change what happened with other marketed events. I don't know that it was marketed more heavily, but it certainly effected more than just one character. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.
To repeat:
"Supervillains not being there are the moment is irrelevant. Superheroes gain supervillains in their cities because its a fictional story that's being written in a modern age where supervillains are the norm. If Dick went to Hong Kong as someone suggested, or New York, or Miami, or any other city in the DC World, I guarantee that despite whatever Yakuza thugs and drug rings were already there in the area, supervillains would be written into the story for Dick to combat, because he's a Superhero, so wherever he goes there's going to be a Supervillain. Arguing that he should leave to prevent that happening is pointless, as it'd just happen anywhere else he went regardless."
I think this debate is pointless after this.
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