#1 Posted by wimble23 (603 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't want to jump on the hate bandwagon but I didn't realize how many gripes I had with New 52 till this last couple of weeks. So many characters ruined and almost unrecognizable. Creeper for instance, completely changed everything about the character to the point where they might as well created a new villain to take this story instead. (Not to mention he was shown in JLI to be a possible member and now he doesn't seem to be a hero at all.) Others were written to the point where an iconic character became so unread they had to be cancelled. Deathstroke, the greatest mercenary in the universe, was downright ruined as was Green Arrow till they finally found a good creative team. If what we have been shown is true Lobo is in for a huge change for the negative.

Then we have the case for these titles that are just kept going no matter who bad and unread they are. I read they first ten plus issues of Stormwatch and Batwing and was disappointed over and over again. For some reason both of these issues are still going. Yet titles that were very well written like Demon Knights and I, Vampire were cancelled way too early. I know it comes down to money but either of these weren't making less money than many comics being produced now.

I also don't understand some parts of the reboot. From what it seemed Barry Allen should know that Flashpoint happened. I also don't understand why they had to give a 5 year time frame from the beginning of everything to present time. This only created more problems, especially with the Batman and Robin time frames. We are also left with no clue what hasn't been redacted. For example apparently the Teen titans with Nightwing, Arsenal and Starfire existed but in Teen Titans/Legion Lost we are told that there were no records of this group till much further in the future.

Not everything is bad there have been series that have been great month after month. Batman and Flash being my two personal favorite. Green Arrow has really picked up since Lemire took it over. JLD has been an issue I didn't think I would like as much as I do. I just hope they can turn things around and not make me post something similar to this anymore.

#2 Edited by WIshIWasSuperman (1379 posts) - - Show Bio

@wimble23: I can see where you're coming from, but I think This is just honestly what happens when a reboot or something similar happens. The biggest problem a reboot, retcon or relaunch has is the collective memory of the audience. I'm not saying DC is doing the right or wrong thing, just the reaction is normal. Resistance. In time things will keep changing and an entire new canon will be fully established at which point I don't think people will be quite so put off.

In terms of cancelling certain titles over others... Only DC can explain their logic really. What seems completely ridiculous, idiot or unfair to you may be entirely justifiable to someone else.

I know there's been a lot of unhappiness with the relaunch/reboot that is N52,but that could also be that we as a species are generally just geared towards the negative. We will rant and rave about the things we don't like more frequently and loudly than the things we do. We also do it for longer. Think about a utility company or mobile company that has annoyed you - I'll guarantee you still hold onto that and bring it up even if your bad experience was years ago (not you specifically, a collective "you"). Whereas if someone did a good job you probably don't think or mention it much beyond a day or two.

#3 Posted by Sinisteri (632 posts) - - Show Bio


Some of us have been around long enough that this isn't the first reboot. People keep saying in time it will get better, but that is not how a reboot works. It shouldn't take ten years to settle in. DC used 5 year timeframe to retain some of the history writers chose to keep. Since there was no one editing or bringing things together-- what was kept made no sense.

Good writing takes only one issue to tell a good story. In one issue without cliffhangers, each writer should have outlined the basics of the character or characters in the book. Patchwork relying on fans' imaginations to fill in the gaps and assuming what history was still there is not good writing, it is shoddy work.

If only DC can explain their logic, then that is called thumbing your nose at a reader.

Reboots have been done way better countless times with less contraversy. The people behind the reboot have done a crappy job, and bringing on new fans while alienating others is no ones idea of great business. People want a business to grow not just stagnate with revolving door while monthly sales decline.

#4 Posted by WIshIWasSuperman (1379 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: That isn't what I was saying. I never suggested the collective memory of the reader is intended to fill gaps, quite the opposite - it makes the reboot less appealing than it otherwise might have been by leaving questions such as "did such and such happen now or not?". I also didn't say DC did the right thing or have done the best job of this specific reboot. I am also just pointing out that any major changes will always be met with resistance (and understandably so) and that people who are unhappy will also be much more vocal than those who have liked it, or those that haven't been bothered one way or the other (personally I fall into the latter).

DC have certainly chosen an interesting method for this reboot, completely rebooting some characters while only really relaunching others. The 5 year gap has certainly proven to be problematic and personally I think has had problems for poor decision making, especially in the sense of not thinking about consequences of decisions of what to keep and what to remove. Batman is a prime example of this and how it has caused significant problems.

On the other hand I like the opportunity it provides to retell old stories in new ways. Could this have been done anyway, without a reboot? Sure, but it's their decision ultimately and as a reader I'm curious if not excited.

Fans speak loudest with their wallets, and had the relaunch/reboot hybrid really been so bad then this would be visible, but I don't know if it necessarily is. DC have the bulk of the top 10 selling issues each month from what I've seen, and even across the top 30 the disparity isn't massive. The limit of only 52 titles (currently less due to cancelled series) wouldn't help in terms of overall numbers I wouldn't think, as they limit their demographics.

Let's take September for example. Top 10 was a 50/50 split, and top 30 saw Marvel with 3 issues more than DC (15 and 12 respectively). If you look at sales for the top 100 however, DC sold just a hair over 2.5 million comics, while Marvel sold barely over 2 million. And that's with Marvel's Infinity event having 2 issues in September as opposed to Forever Evils 1 issue to contribute. And as far as I know overall sales figures are on the rise year on year for the industry .. So I don't think this supports that monthly sales have declined overall. Granted I'd need more time to compare month on month figures to know for certain, and also to compare pre N52 to post. I do really that immediately after the launch DC was seeing some of their best sales in a long time and JL specifically was the best selling comic for like 6 months.

It's obvious you're not a fan of N52,and that's fine, it's to be expected some people wouldn't like it, but overall for the time being it looks like it is paying off to me, so I doubt DC is going to change course any time soon.

#5 Posted by Sinisteri (632 posts) - - Show Bio


Just noting that this didn't happen with the last reboots. So, it struck me as weird that the negative reaction is normal when it is not.

DC is doing ok, but it rests heavily on the same titles and characters as opposed to other titles that have done well at some point or another. It is surviving gimmick to gimmick.

It is very sad that the best DC can offer is retelling the same stories just differently.

Even the best companies have survived horrible management and seemed ok on the surface while declining in value and output.

Time will tell. As much as people say they love the new 52, I see very little talk about the love of stories, characters and exciting events of the diverse characters. People mention a book is good but rarely say why. DC seems to be a mess, but I get that some say they are enjoying it.

#6 Posted by WIshIWasSuperman (1379 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: which is all fair enough too. I admit some titles and characters haven't been treated the best from what I can tell, others have benefited from it (Aquaman is getting a pretty good wrap so far).

I think the thing is the limit of only having 52 titles. They have thousands of characters, but by limiting the titles like that it means many (most) barely see the light of day, and if they do its very limited.

Batman, JL and Superman are definitely their bread & butter, getting the most attention and keeping their sales as high as they are that's for sure. Sadly though if they aren't seeing enough profit or market for other characters, they would get the chop, even if it's a really good character or story (for example those lamenting I, Vampire). Not saying it wasn't profitable, as I have no idea, but I would assume if it was as popular/profitable as other titles it wouldn't have been cancelled.

As outsiders it's hard to know exactly what's going on behind the scenes, so to us it can look like an absolute mess, but internally it may all make perfect sense. For me personally, I've enjoyed the reboot as the titles I do read have either been as good as or better than what I had been reading prior. Not every issue or arc, but largely it has been. I don't envy anyone in the industry (Marvel or DC or anyone else for that matter) as fan can be very passionate to say the least.

As you said though, only time will tell.

#7 Edited by Superbat420 (271 posts) - - Show Bio

I seriously feel like I'm the only person who loved the creeper issue and hated the doomsday issue