#1 Edited by ganon15 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an old thread from a mate of mine from Toonzone that didn't get as much attention as it should have so I decided to bring it to this site.

The women in JL/U(and the DCAU in general you can say) are portrayed as being sexually aggressive, often pursuing the men (Supergirl copping a feel with Brainiac 5, Giganta kissing Flash out of nowhere in Destroyer, Hawkgirl sadly trying to seduce GL in the elevator in Shadow of a Hawk, Huntress making the first move with question on Double Date, Black Canary using her looks to get Green Arrow to help her out in The Cat and the Canary, Tala with Lex…) those behaviors are questionable/debatable.

What are your thoughts?

#2 Posted by PapiNacho (2421 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh no woman are sexually aggressive they are being over sexualized and treated as objects! Oh no woman aren't being sexually aggresive, they don't have sexual confidence! Sexism!!!!

#3 Posted by waezi2 (7614 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by PapiNacho (2421 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2: I guess I should make my point clear, this question is totally subjective because people will or won't get upset about the same thing. Is it sexual repression or objectification who decides? We can't. I personally didn't notice any oversexualization but that is just me.

#5 Posted by waezi2 (7614 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho: *face-palm* sorry.

Me neither. It didn't bother anyone when Gambit where hitting on Rouge in X the animated show.

#6 Posted by Justthatkid (3983 posts) - - Show Bio

Forgot one of the biggest, Wonder Woman/Batman.

#7 Edited by ganon15 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@justthatkid: Yeah, how did I miss that one? when she grabs Batman and kisses him

#8 Posted by ImagineMan16 (466 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh no woman are sexually aggressive they are being over sexualized and treated as objects! Oh no woman aren't being sexually aggresive, they don't have sexual confidence! Sexism!!!!

^Though crudely stated, there is some merit here.

A woman being sexually aggressive=Over-sexualization and fan-service catering to the male audience

A woman being sexually passive/receptive=Submissive, archaic ideas of gender roles and catering to the male power fantasy.

In fiction, when we continue to distinguish "female characters" from "characters," it becomes easy to contort anything into sexism, imagined or not (though, I dare say, usually imagined). I think in most of the instances listed above, it made sense within the context and with the characters involved (seriously, between Huntress and Question, which one is going to make the first move?)

#10 Posted by ganon15 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yeah, and let's not forget Maxima in "Warrior Queen" forcing Superman against his will to marry her.

#12 Edited by MetalJimmor (1083 posts) - - Show Bio

Crime fighting is an inherently aggressive, domineering profession to take. I see no reason why the women who go out into the streets every night and beat up criminals and save the world wouldn't have the confidence to go after the guy they like.

#13 Posted by lifeofvibe (3490 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, that black canary... im not the only one thinking this right?

#14 Posted by MartianManhunterIsBetterThanCyborg (2243 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, that black canary... im not the only one thinking this right?

No, you are not alone.

#15 Edited by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor said:

Crime fighting is an inherently aggressive, domineering profession to take. I see no reason why the women who go out into the streets every night and beat up criminals and save the world wouldn't have the confidence to go after the guy they like.

Confidence is one thing, but you gotta admit they overdid it sometimes like with forget Wonder Woman putting atom in her cleavage(lucky bastard), Shayera in ancient times cheating on her husband Katar Hol and sleeping with someone else on her first go, horny Tala with Lex and Fire shoving her tits in Flash's face in "I am Legion" lol. Sure you can argue that all of this "is a good display of female independency" but are these good examples for kids?

#16 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@lifeofvibe said:

Damn, that black canary... im not the only one thinking this right?

No, you are not alone.

Really? She's very very cartoonish. I never find myself able to be attracted to stuff that is too stlyized.

#17 Posted by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@martianmanhunterisbetterthancy said:

@lifeofvibe said:

Damn, that black canary... im not the only one thinking this right?

No, you are not alone.

Really? She's very very cartoonish. I never find myself able to be attracted to stuff that is too stlyized.

What about Huntress? or any female from BTAS?

#18 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think it's a bad thing that they portrayed romances where the women have agency.

It's not like there were no incidents of men pursuing women (e.g., Flash constantly, Booster Gold), so really the only possible concern is that they didn't show the full and complete possible range of straight-cis-female romantic interest, and that's a non-concern. We already have such an overabundance of portrayals of women as the objects to be won or someone who slaps the male lead until she's suddenly kissing him, so the final tally of all the portrayals of female romantic agency that JL/U could cram into its run could never hope to make a dent in that. It's not something worth worrying about.

Gail Simone recently discussed something similar on her tumblr when people were passing around what was essentially a call for more portrayals of weak women in fiction:

The thing that bugs me a little about this is that there are already millions of female characters who cry and who cower and who are desperate for a husband. It’s not like fiction was exactly desperate for more portrayals like that, a lot of those are standard tropes that have long since reached saturation.

Before there was Xena, there were a million female characters who cried and cowered and schemed. They weren’t exactly rare.

There’s a reason why people started asking for ‘strong’ female characters. The whole conversation is complicated and not easily reduced to a series of little photos like this. It didn’t take deliberate effort to make more women who are needy or ineffectual..they were all over the place.

It DID take deliberate effort to start making kickass heroines.

She had a couple follow-up exchanges on it where she paraphrases/reiterates the above, but the only one really worth reading is this one:

Anonymous asked: Re: the strong women quote, please don't forget that there is a racial component to presenting women too. Allowing black women to be vulnerable, to cry, to be rescued, to be cared for, that's incredibly radical in mass media -- the mainstream is all too keen to present black women as tireless and unable to feel pain. Same with stoicism/inscrutible for Asian and Indigenous women, etc. A fainting, cowering damsel in distress can absolutely be empowering for non-white women.

Point taken, and there is clearly an absurd collision here in the overall lack of WOC in media at all, so it makes perfect sense that the variety of portrayals is even more fractionalized.

#20 Posted by Vitalius (1948 posts) - - Show Bio

Is really wrong if a woman using seduction as weapon to fight and stop crime?

Black Canary tried that on Green Arrow, because she already knew he was checking her around on previous episodes and she need help with a mission. Wasnt like she use seduction with every man of JL until she got one that acept her mission. Plus she is great tactician, if she takes her looks and her seduction skills and use it as a tool.

#21 Posted by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitalius said:

Is really wrong if a woman using seduction as weapon to fight and stop crime?

Black Canary tried that on Green Arrow, because she already knew he was checking her around on previous episodes and she need help with a mission. Wasnt like she use seduction with every man of JL until she got one that acept her mission. Plus she is great tactician, if she takes her looks and her seduction skills and use it as a tool.

What, this is desperate housewives now? lol

#22 Edited by Vitalius (1948 posts) - - Show Bio

@modernww2fare:

To be fair sometimes Black Canry project herself as weak girl and suduce them, so they lower their defenses and she could take advantage of situation. But she still a great women in terms strenght, skill and intellect. Sure she can take down alone Green Arrow and two bodyguards on that episode, sometimes i dont why she decide to bring Green Arrow along with her. I guess Batman was too busy or just to deveploment Black Canary and Green Arrow as pair.

#23 Posted by youmessinwithme (1189 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh no woman are sexually aggressive they are being over sexualized and treated as objects! Oh no woman aren't being sexually aggresive, they don't have sexual confidence! Sexism!!!!

#24 Posted by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

Still not enough for you?

#25 Edited by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@modernww2fare: that's a little more realistic, but then again, it's not exactly the style of the animated universe. It's way smoother and more detail, not to mention shaded.

My only point was that, to feel like a drawn character could be attractive, it has to be human proportions and a sense of volume, that's all. I guess not even you are attracted to the drawing, but to the kind of woman the drawing tries to sum up.

#26 Posted by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@modernww2fare: that's a little more realistic, but then again, it's not exactly the style of the animated universe. It's way smoother and more detail, not to mention shaded.

My only point was that, to feel like a drawn character could be attractive, it has to be human proportions and a sense of volume, that's all. I guess not even you are attracted to the drawing, but to the kind of woman the drawing tries to sum up.

what do you think about how Supergirl looks in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse? I think she looks very realistic for a cartoon

#27 Posted by ganon15 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@martianmanhunterisbetterthancy said:

@lifeofvibe said:

Damn, that black canary... im not the only one thinking this right?

No, you are not alone.

Really? She's very very cartoonish. I never find myself able to be attracted to stuff that is too stlyized.

I find her hot. lol

#28 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Posted by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@modernww2fare: I guess we just have different tastes ;)

@ganon15, appearently you're not alone :)

So then what animated female designs do you like?

#30 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@modernww2fare: now that I think of it, none. I have liked women portraied in paintings and illustrations, but never an animated one.

#31 Posted by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@modernww2fare: now that I think of it, none. I have liked women portraied in paintings and illustrations, but never an animated one.

:'(

#32 Edited by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@modernww2fare: don't be like that! We can still be friend! It's better, actually: we won't ever desire the same fictional women!

#33 Edited by Farkam (4891 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh no woman are sexually aggressive they are being over sexualized and treated as objects! Oh no woman aren't being sexually aggresive, they don't have sexual confidence! Sexism!!!!

#34 Posted by ganon15 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone else actually give me a REAL response as to why they disagree with my opinion that the JL/U females were over sexualized?

#35 Edited by modernww2fare (1194 posts) - - Show Bio

@matteopg said:

@modernww2fare: don't be like that! We can still be friend! It's better, actually: we won't ever desire the same fictional women!

C'mon, you've got to tell me you at least found Lois Lane attractive:

#36 Posted by MatteoPG (1927 posts) - - Show Bio

@modernww2fare: this is getting intense ;)

No, really, not for me. Thanks for your hard work, though :)