Official Daredevil Fans Against Waid Thread

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@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134: What issue are you talking about? And nope Matt didn't but Matt is also a very forgiving person. Just look at his Mother, Karen and his dad. But it would not it would not be out of character for Jack to have been abusive. If Matt figure out that his father was abusive could that make him put mud on his dad grave? Yes, I think so.

Personally I think it is a much bigger problem with the panel where Jack is happy with his boxing gloves contra the panel where he is unhappy/angry holding Matt. That goes against mythos that his dad didn't cared for him.

I think that's where we disagree I can't see Matt putting dirt over his Father's grave at no cost especially over the woman that abandoned him.Either way I don't like Waid playing with this. He could have done something else instead of this

it seems like it is your own biased towards the subject about a mother leaving her child than Matt is in the comics. Matt has never shown any hatred towards his mother because of this. He has accepted she left him in full. We can both agree this is kind of weird and illogical however that is his choice. However in Daredevil: Father he is shown shocked when his father beats up a man on the behalf of Fixer. Likewise in Battlin' Jack Murdock he is shocked when he is hit by his dad. Neither of his parents was ready to get children and neither of them took the responsibility seriously.

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@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134: What issue are you talking about? And nope Matt didn't but Matt is also a very forgiving person. Just look at his Mother, Karen and his dad. But it would not it would not be out of character for Jack to have been abusive. If Matt figure out that his father was abusive could that make him put mud on his dad grave? Yes, I think so.

Personally I think it is a much bigger problem with the panel where Jack is happy with his boxing gloves contra the panel where he is unhappy/angry holding Matt. That goes against mythos that his dad didn't cared for him.

I think that's where we disagree I can't see Matt putting dirt over his Father's grave at no cost especially over the woman that abandoned him.Either way I don't like Waid playing with this. He could have done something else instead of this

it seems like it is your own biased towards the subject about a mother leaving her child than Matt is in the comics. Matt has never shown any hatred towards his mother because of this. He has accepted she left him in full. We can both agree this is kind of weird and illogical however that is his choice. However in Daredevil: Father he is shown shocked when his father beats up a man on the behalf of Fixer. Likewise in Battlin' Jack Murdock he is shocked when he is hit by his dad. Neither of his parents was ready to get children and neither of them took the responsibility seriously.

I'm not being biased at all,it just doesn't make sense that he would turn on the man that raised and did his best to provide for him over a woman who left him. I say that it seems that you're being biased towards Maggie but I won't because we just have different opinions about it.Of course he was shocked when he witness his Father beat people up because he wasn't used to seeing it,same goes for being hit by his Father for the first time. Anything Jack has done shouldn't surprised Matt at this stage of his life but at the end of the day it seems that Waid is trying to give Maggie a pass and i'm not fond of that but we'll see. And I never said Matt should hate Maggie or show hatred towards I said he shouldn't put her over his Father who he was raised and had the stones to provide for him at all cost rather than the woman who bailed on him because she wasn't ready for her responsibilities

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Waid is the best

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@daredevil21134: Waid is destroying Daredevil my god and the fact that people like this crap blows my mind. Half of them have probably never read Daredevil, and it's the same people who have never read Daredevil who bash us for hating Waids run

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@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

Now since you went back and read everything you now know how me and @jonny_anonymous feels lol

Haha most definitely so, my brother!

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#407  Edited By daredevil21134

@daredevil21134: Waid is destroying Daredevil my god and the fact that people like this crap blows my mind. Half of them have probably never read Daredevil, and it's the same people who have never read Daredevil who bash us for hating Waids run

I think by the time the Netflix series rolls around there will have to be a massive reboot

@daredevil21134 said:

@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

Now since you went back and read everything you now know how me and @jonny_anonymous feels lol

Haha most definitely so, my brother!

Exactly

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I'm not being biased at all,it just doesn't make sense that he would turn on the man that raised and did his best to provide for him over a woman who left him. I say that it seems that you're being biased towards Maggie but I won't because we just have different opinions about it.Of course he was shocked when he witness his Father beat people up because he wasn't used to seeing it,same goes for being hit by his Father for the first time. Anything Jack has done shouldn't surprised Matt at this stage of his life but at the end of the day it seems that Waid is trying to give Maggie a pass and i'm not fond of that but we'll see. And I never said Matt should hate Maggie or show hatred towards I said he shouldn't put her over his Father who he was raised and had the stones to provide for him at all cost rather than the woman who bailed on him because she wasn't ready for her responsibilities

My point is that Matt has never shown any negative feelings towards his mother. However Matt did have negative experiences with his dad and shown negatively feelings towards this. Jack also choose to tell Matt's mom died not a great moment either. I agree this would best left alone and don't need to be touched upon. It would make much more sense if Matt asked Maggie why she left him and didn't take care of him. If I was Matt I would have a bigger problem with Maggie than my dad, however Matt thinks differently. However let us not judge before we see the issue and who it is. A few pages without text shouldn't judge a comic before it is released. I know the reason it is shown now is to make a buzz about the comic and I would wish DC and Marvel wouldn't do it.

PS: What was the issue you where thinking of I don't care so much if you remember it wrong. I'm still curious.

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@daredevil21134: I hope so, it'd be weird to have a dark tv show but a light comicbook

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@tupiaz said:
@daredevil21134 said:

I'm not being biased at all,it just doesn't make sense that he would turn on the man that raised and did his best to provide for him over a woman who left him. I say that it seems that you're being biased towards Maggie but I won't because we just have different opinions about it.Of course he was shocked when he witness his Father beat people up because he wasn't used to seeing it,same goes for being hit by his Father for the first time. Anything Jack has done shouldn't surprised Matt at this stage of his life but at the end of the day it seems that Waid is trying to give Maggie a pass and i'm not fond of that but we'll see. And I never said Matt should hate Maggie or show hatred towards I said he shouldn't put her over his Father who he was raised and had the stones to provide for him at all cost rather than the woman who bailed on him because she wasn't ready for her responsibilities

My point is that Matt has never shown any negative feelings towards his mother. However Matt did have negative experiences with his dad and shown negatively feelings towards this. Jack also choose to tell Matt's mom died not a great moment either. I agree this would best left alone and don't need to be touched upon. It would make much more sense if Matt asked Maggie why she left him and didn't take care of him. If I was Matt I would have a bigger problem with Maggie than my dad, however Matt thinks differently. However let us not judge before we see the issue and who it is. A few pages without text shouldn't judge a comic before it is released. I know the reason it is shown now is to make a buzz about the comic and I would wish DC and Marvel wouldn't do it.

PS: What was the issue you where thinking of I don't care so much if you remember it wrong. I'm still curious.

Well he did have an outburst on Maggie in Guardian Devil and she slapped him. I was talking about Battlin Jack issue 2.I looked closely at the panels and she seems to have set him on the ground and left. I was looking for a crib or something but I didn't see anything

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@daredevil21134: I hope so, it'd be weird to have a dark tv show but a light comicbook

I'd almost bet everything that Waid will be either gone or the tone will change to match the series. I personally think he will leave sometime next because he seems to be just doing random things right now on the series. I get the feeling he's staying for the sake of staying

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Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit confused here, since I've never been able to get through a lot of Waid's stuff. So apparently Waid had Matt put dirt on his father's grave? Much less of a literary crime than having Spot teleport his bones into Matt's desk drawer. We know that Jack was a tough character and no saint, so that's low on my list of Waid's catastrophes. As for Maggie, we can make some basic assumptions.... she left her hardass husband, couldn't handle him or motherhood, and has spent her life redeeming herself in the convent. Matt has no resentment, she's a saint in his eyes, and he knows his father was ultimately a great man to him, but no saint.
I see a lot of picking details from mini-series like Battling Jack or Father. It's fun, but I wouldn't focus too much on anything that happens in a mini-series. Their canonicity is dubious, especially if it's never referenced in a regular book. You can believe them or not, but they often contradict the book, and each other. Daredevil:Yellow is not quite the same as the originals, and they're both a lot different than Man Without Fear. I prefer the Miller book, but I have no right to insist on it. The prostitute that he knocked out the window was referenced by Matteis, so we can say that happened, but some writer's bright idea that she didn't die but became Typhoid was ignored, and I prefer to. Elektra:Assassin was referenced in Fall From Grace, but it clearly took place in an alternate history that can't be reconciled. And I read that Quesada came up with some crazy retcons in Father, which I'd rather not even dignify by mentioning, so I feel free to think they never happened. I love canon, it's a great part of comics, but eventually, Waid will be ancient history along with DD's unresolved infatuation with Moondragon.
And I assume Waid's DD will be gone with the Netflix show, but in the meantime, Marvel is selling this product to people who like Waid. They're not going to start a noir book now. It's too soon. So the alternative to Waid for now is hiatus. That would okay with me, I'm not subjecting myself to it anyway, and hate what I do see, but those who enjoy it now are will have to look elsewhere in the future. In the meantime, it's selling enough for Marvel. As for the indignities on the character, unfortunately, we care more about that then Marvel does.

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@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134: What issue are you talking about? And nope Matt didn't but Matt is also a very forgiving person. Just look at his Mother, Karen and his dad. But it would not it would not be out of character for Jack to have been abusive. If Matt figure out that his father was abusive could that make him put mud on his dad grave? Yes, I think so.

Personally I think it is a much bigger problem with the panel where Jack is happy with his boxing gloves contra the panel where he is unhappy/angry holding Matt. That goes against mythos that his dad didn't cared for him.

I think that's where we disagree I can't see Matt putting dirt over his Father's grave at no cost especially over the woman that abandoned him.

Matt wouldn't smear mud over "a good man" under any circumstances. He loved his father, and has been shown, for decades, to have loved him more than he ever loved anyone. He got most of the things that made him a good person from Battlin' Jack. Jack raised him alone from childhood, worked in fixed fights for Matt's sake, and he didn't take a dive in his final fight because of Matt, which got him killed, and that is not a man on whose grave Matt spits (or smears mud).

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#415  Edited By daredevil21134

@qtmxd said:

Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit confused here, since I've never been able to get through a lot of Waid's stuff. So apparently Waid had Matt put dirt on his father's grave? Much less of a literary crime than having Spot teleport his bones into Matt's desk drawer. We know that Jack was a tough character and no saint, so that's low on my list of Waid's catastrophes. As for Maggie, we can make some basic assumptions.... she left her hardass husband, couldn't handle him or motherhood, and has spent her life redeeming herself in the convent. Matt has no resentment, she's a saint in his eyes, and he knows his father was ultimately a great man to him, but no saint.

I see a lot of picking details from mini-series like Battling Jack or Father. It's fun, but I wouldn't focus too much on anything that happens in a mini-series. Their canonicity is dubious, especially if it's never referenced in a regular book. You can believe them or not, but they often contradict the book, and each other. Daredevil:Yellow is not quite the same as the originals, and they're both a lot different than Man Without Fear. I prefer the Miller book, but I have no right to insist on it. The prostitute that he knocked out the window was referenced by Matteis, so we can say that happened, but some writer's bright idea that she didn't die but became Typhoid was ignored, and I prefer to. Elektra:Assassin was referenced in Fall From Grace, but it clearly took place in an alternate history that can't be reconciled. And I read that Quesada came up with some crazy retcons in Father, which I'd rather not even dignify by mentioning, so I feel free to think they never happened. I love canon, it's a great part of comics, but eventually, Waid will be ancient history along with DD's unresolved infatuation with Moondragon.

And I assume Waid's DD will be gone with the Netflix show, but in the meantime, Marvel is selling this product to people who like Waid. They're not going to start a noir book now. It's too soon. So the alternative to Waid for now is hiatus. That would okay with me, I'm not subjecting myself to it anyway, and hate what I do see, but those who enjoy it now are will have to look elsewhere in the future. In the meantime, it's selling enough for Marvel. As for the indignities on the character, unfortunately, we care more about that then Marvel does.

You make excellent points

No Caption Provided

This is what we're talking about

@daredevil21134 said:

@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134: What issue are you talking about? And nope Matt didn't but Matt is also a very forgiving person. Just look at his Mother, Karen and his dad. But it would not it would not be out of character for Jack to have been abusive. If Matt figure out that his father was abusive could that make him put mud on his dad grave? Yes, I think so.

Personally I think it is a much bigger problem with the panel where Jack is happy with his boxing gloves contra the panel where he is unhappy/angry holding Matt. That goes against mythos that his dad didn't cared for him.

I think that's where we disagree I can't see Matt putting dirt over his Father's grave at no cost especially over the woman that abandoned him.

Matt wouldn't smear mud over "a good man" under any circumstances. He loved his father, and has been shown, for decades, to have loved him more than he ever loved anyone. He got most of the things that made him a good person from Battlin' Jack. Jack raised him alone from childhood, worked in fixed fights for Matt's sake, and he didn't take a dive in his final fight because of Matt, which got him killed, and that is not a man on whose grave Matt spits (or smears mud).

100% agreed

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@daredevil21134: I agree, I don't like it, but let's just say it's moment of anger and disillusionment, quickly forgotten in the larger scheme of things. Maybe because I go all the way back to 1965 with DD, I've seen (and often ignored) so many low points with the great highs, that I can't get too crazy over something brief that can fade.The thing with Waid is that even when he stops joking and tries to write real emotion, it feels wrongheaded.
And as important as DD's past is to me, I often wish he (and other characters) would stop mining the same territory so much. I'd be fine with giving Battling Jack a rest. On the other hand, I think the seldom used Maggie is due for a revival. The bad news is that it's Waid doing it. I dread what he'll come up with.

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@qtmxd said:

@daredevil21134: I agree, I don't like it, but let's just say it's moment of anger and disillusionment, quickly forgotten in the larger scheme of things. Maybe because I go all the way back to 1965 with DD, I've seen (and often ignored) so many low points with the great highs, that I can't get too crazy over something brief that can fade.The thing with Waid is that even when he stops joking and tries to write real emotion, it feels wrongheaded.

And as important as DD's past is to me, I often wish he (and other characters) would stop mining the same territory so much. I'd be fine with giving Battling Jack a rest. On the other hand, I think the seldom used Maggie is due for a revival. The bad news is that it's Waid doing it. I dread what he'll come up with.

That's my problem,I don't trust Waid,his series is a circus and everybody's argument of his run being dark because Foggy has cancer underwhelms me. I have lost loved ones to cancer but this doesn't come across as very dark to me especially after all the stuff i've seen Matt go through already,not to mention the cancer reveal seemed so random .And according to @jriddle73 Waid is a gimmick writer

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@qtmxd said:

@daredevil21134: I agree, I don't like it, but let's just say it's moment of anger and disillusionment, quickly forgotten in the larger scheme of things. Maybe because I go all the way back to 1965 with DD, I've seen (and often ignored) so many low points with the great highs, that I can't get too crazy over something brief that can fade.The thing with Waid is that even when he stops joking and tries to write real emotion, it feels wrongheaded.

And as important as DD's past is to me, I often wish he (and other characters) would stop mining the same territory so much. I'd be fine with giving Battling Jack a rest. On the other hand, I think the seldom used Maggie is due for a revival. The bad news is that it's Waid doing it. I dread what he'll come up with.

This I agree with.

@qtmxd said:

Okay, I'll admit I'm a bit confused here, since I've never been able to get through a lot of Waid's stuff. So apparently Waid had Matt put dirt on his father's grave? Much less of a literary crime than having Spot teleport his bones into Matt's desk drawer. We know that Jack was a tough character and no saint, so that's low on my list of Waid's catastrophes. As for Maggie, we can make some basic assumptions.... she left her hardass husband, couldn't handle him or motherhood, and has spent her life redeeming herself in the convent. Matt has no resentment, she's a saint in his eyes, and he knows his father was ultimately a great man to him, but no saint.

I see a lot of picking details from mini-series like Battling Jack or Father. It's fun, but I wouldn't focus too much on anything that happens in a mini-series. Their canonicity is dubious, especially if it's never referenced in a regular book. You can believe them or not, but they often contradict the book, and each other. Daredevil:Yellow is not quite the same as the originals, and they're both a lot different than Man Without Fear. I prefer the Miller book, but I have no right to insist on it. The prostitute that he knocked out the window was referenced by Matteis, so we can say that happened, but some writer's bright idea that she didn't die but became Typhoid was ignored, and I prefer to. Elektra:Assassin was referenced in Fall From Grace, but it clearly took place in an alternate history that can't be reconciled. And I read that Quesada came up with some crazy retcons in Father, which I'd rather not even dignify by mentioning, so I feel free to think they never happened. I love canon, it's a great part of comics, but eventually, Waid will be ancient history along with DD's unresolved infatuation with Moondragon.

And I assume Waid's DD will be gone with the Netflix show, but in the meantime, Marvel is selling this product to people who like Waid. They're not going to start a noir book now. It's too soon. So the alternative to Waid for now is hiatus. That would okay with me, I'm not subjecting myself to it anyway, and hate what I do see, but those who enjoy it now are will have to look elsewhere in the future. In the meantime, it's selling enough for Marvel. As for the indignities on the character, unfortunately, we care more about that then Marvel does.

It was not so much to say that it did happen that way. Neither father nor Battli' Jack Murdcok has been confirmed a part of canon and should therefore not be consider canon. My point was simply to show that Jack was a tough father and that he wasn't a saint and it has been done before. It is not like the worst that could ever happen. Its go way back to Miller's run. Battlin' Jack Murdock is one big love letter to Miller it is filled with characters from the run like Turk as kid. Josie's Bar plays a minor role in story (the biggest in the all stories it has appeared in).

I think it is a much bigger problem that Bullseye is back and Matt didn't kill him anymore but now he did because he waspossessed by the demon. Before it was the act that made him being possessed if I remember correctly. Bullseye could know about Matt's childhood through kingpin unless they make a unnecessary connection between Matt' and Lester as kids.

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@tupiaz:

I think it is a much bigger problem that Bullseye is back and Matt didn't kill him anymore but now he did because he waspossessed by the demon. Before it was the act that made him being possessed if I remember correctly. Bullseye could know about Matt's childhood through kingpin unless they make a unnecessary connection between Matt' and Lester as kids.

DD's killing Bullseye, possessed or not, is something that could have been handled well, but since it was done by Diggle, who is living proof that noir can be crap too, I don't want to even try to figure it out. JRiddle wrote an excellent piece on heroes killing on DD's other blog, which may come up again when appropriate. I actually think the paralyzed Bullseye was one of Waid's less bad inventions, though I still don't like him as a mastermind, the Ikiri origin was beyond ridiculous, and Bullseye has to get back on his feet eventually. As for the Foggy cancer, outside of the one intensely realistic touch of the smell of the chemo, I also found it underwhelming. In addition to stating that he doesn't do noir, Waid has also stated that his light touch on DD reflects his own dealings with depression. Well and good, we're all human, but that doesn't make it good writing. The same Waid who at least dealt with cancer with some sensitivity, if not artistry, also put Milla in a straight jacket in a padded cell, which was a disgustingly primitive gimmick.
Again, I'm not all that concerned with what he does with the relation between Jack and Maggie, or their personalities. They seem kind of set. I'm more concerned that he'll introduce some kind of crazy fantasy that will wreck the grounded nature of the characters.

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#421 vance_astro  Moderator

@qtmxd said:

@tupiaz:

I think it is a much bigger problem that Bullseye is back and Matt didn't kill him anymore but now he did because he waspossessed by the demon. Before it was the act that made him being possessed if I remember correctly. Bullseye could know about Matt's childhood through kingpin unless they make a unnecessary connection between Matt' and Lester as kids.

DD's killing Bullseye, possessed or not, is something that could have been handled well, but since it was done by Diggle, who is living proof that noir can be crap too, I don't want to even try to figure it out. JRiddle wrote an excellent piece on heroes killing on DD's other blog, which may come up again when appropriate. I actually think the paralyzed Bullseye was one of Waid's less bad inventions, though I still don't like him as a mastermind, the Ikiri origin was beyond ridiculous, and Bullseye has to get back on his feet eventually. As for the Foggy cancer, outside of the one intensely realistic touch of the smell of the chemo, I also found it underwhelming. In addition to stating that he doesn't do noir, Waid has also stated that his light touch on DD reflects his own dealings with depression. Well and good, we're all human, but that doesn't make it good writing. The same Waid who at least dealt with cancer with some sensitivity, if not artistry, also put Milla in a straight jacket in a padded cell, which was a disgustingly primitive gimmick.

Again, I'm not all that concerned with what he does with the relation between Jack and Maggie, or their personalities. They seem kind of set. I'm more concerned that he'll introduce some kind of crazy fantasy that will wreck the grounded nature of the characters.

I think Diggle's DD run was bad BECAUSE of Shadowland. I think he was given the task of pushing and idea that was supposed to push Daredevil further ahead and give him more recognition as a character and it was too much for him. If he was just in charge of writing his own stories and not dealing with an event, I think his run would have been alot better.

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#422  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

@jriddle73 said:

Matt wouldn't smear mud over "a good man" under any circumstances. He loved his father, and has been shown, for decades, to have loved him more than he ever loved anyone. He got most of the things that made him a good person from Battlin' Jack. Jack raised him alone from childhood, worked in fixed fights for Matt's sake, and he didn't take a dive in his final fight because of Matt, which got him killed, and that is not a man on whose grave Matt spits (or smears mud).

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#423  Edited By tupiaz

@qtmxd said:

@tupiaz:

I think it is a much bigger problem that Bullseye is back and Matt didn't kill him anymore but now he did because he waspossessed by the demon. Before it was the act that made him being possessed if I remember correctly. Bullseye could know about Matt's childhood through kingpin unless they make a unnecessary connection between Matt' and Lester as kids.

DD's killing Bullseye, possessed or not, is something that could have been handled well, but since it was done by Diggle, who is living proof that noir can be crap too, I don't want to even try to figure it out. JRiddle wrote an excellent piece on heroes killing on DD's other blog, which may come up again when appropriate. I actually think the paralyzed Bullseye was one of Waid's less bad inventions, though I still don't like him as a mastermind, the Ikiri origin was beyond ridiculous, and Bullseye has to get back on his feet eventually. As for the Foggy cancer, outside of the one intensely realistic touch of the smell of the chemo, I also found it underwhelming. In addition to stating that he doesn't do noir, Waid has also stated that his light touch on DD reflects his own dealings with depression. Well and good, we're all human, but that doesn't make it good writing. The same Waid who at least dealt with cancer with some sensitivity, if not artistry, also put Milla in a straight jacket in a padded cell, which was a disgustingly primitive gimmick.

Again, I'm not all that concerned with what he does with the relation between Jack and Maggie, or their personalities. They seem kind of set. I'm more concerned that he'll introduce some kind of crazy fantasy that will wreck the grounded nature of the characters.

I think Diggle's DD run was bad BECAUSE of Shadowland. I think he was given the task of pushing and idea that was supposed to push Daredevil further ahead and give him more recognition as a character and it was too much for him. If he was just in charge of writing his own stories and not dealing with an event, I think his run would have been alot better.

Diggle is a capable writer. Green Arrow Year: One is forinstance a great story.

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@tupiaz said:

@vance_astro said:

@qtmxd said:

@tupiaz:

I think it is a much bigger problem that Bullseye is back and Matt didn't kill him anymore but now he did because he waspossessed by the demon. Before it was the act that made him being possessed if I remember correctly. Bullseye could know about Matt's childhood through kingpin unless they make a unnecessary connection between Matt' and Lester as kids.

DD's killing Bullseye, possessed or not, is something that could have been handled well, but since it was done by Diggle, who is living proof that noir can be crap too, I don't want to even try to figure it out. JRiddle wrote an excellent piece on heroes killing on DD's other blog, which may come up again when appropriate. I actually think the paralyzed Bullseye was one of Waid's less bad inventions, though I still don't like him as a mastermind, the Ikiri origin was beyond ridiculous, and Bullseye has to get back on his feet eventually. As for the Foggy cancer, outside of the one intensely realistic touch of the smell of the chemo, I also found it underwhelming. In addition to stating that he doesn't do noir, Waid has also stated that his light touch on DD reflects his own dealings with depression. Well and good, we're all human, but that doesn't make it good writing. The same Waid who at least dealt with cancer with some sensitivity, if not artistry, also put Milla in a straight jacket in a padded cell, which was a disgustingly primitive gimmick.

Again, I'm not all that concerned with what he does with the relation between Jack and Maggie, or their personalities. They seem kind of set. I'm more concerned that he'll introduce some kind of crazy fantasy that will wreck the grounded nature of the characters.

I think Diggle's DD run was bad BECAUSE of Shadowland. I think he was given the task of pushing and idea that was supposed to push Daredevil further ahead and give him more recognition as a character and it was too much for him. If he was just in charge of writing his own stories and not dealing with an event, I think his run would have been alot better.

Diggle is a capable writer. Green Arrow Year: One is forinstance a great story.

I have heard that his Green Arrow was good and I think I agree with @vance_astro about Diggle being better if he would have got to tell his own story

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@vance_astro said:

@jriddle73 said:

Matt wouldn't smear mud over "a good man" under any circumstances. He loved his father, and has been shown, for decades, to have loved him more than he ever loved anyone. He got most of the things that made him a good person from Battlin' Jack. Jack raised him alone from childhood, worked in fixed fights for Matt's sake, and he didn't take a dive in his final fight because of Matt, which got him killed, and that is not a man on whose grave Matt spits (or smears mud).

No Caption Provided

That was an incident created by Frank Miller to show why Matt chose law as his profession. In context, Jack Murdock had always been adamant that his son would have a better life than he'd had, that he would be of some respected profession, not some street brawler, and getting into fights was absolutely forbidden. Matt got into a fight and came home quite pleased with himself while Jack was drunk. It broke Jack's heart and he clipped him, then was immediately horrified by it, and it was likely the only time anything like that ever happened. It has never diminished Matt's expressed love and respect for his father.

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@daredevil21134:
Okay, so I'm not getting that "you've reached your post limit" anymore. I'm glad that's done.
I don't think there's any major disagreement on the essentials of the Matt/Jack relationship.
I do think there was a good point made re Diggle, the degree to which he was to blame for Shadowland. After floundering through some arcs, I thought Brubaker gave a good send-off with leader of the Hand. What I thought was coming was a Batman Inc. type thing, where Matt would have a major organization at his call and be a player in the Avengers and SHIELD worlds. Still dark, but more fantasy and spies, and with the moral ambiguity of trying to lead a group of killers and keep them in line. But Marvel didn't go with that. I distinctly remember they announced they were putting him on hiatus, since they'd just done that with Thor. Maybe it made sense after 45 years of tepid sales. So what they wanted was a Ragnarok event, to obliterate DD. In that case, Diggle's possessed by a demon cliche was easy, and more than did the trick. Matt was degraded, lied to, manipulated, humiliated, beaten, and made a pawn and a fool. "There is no more Murdock.... there is only the Beast!" was a worse line than anything even Waid has written. But DIggle's first couple of issues did show some promise, and even his ongoing DD titles were superior enough to the Shadowland series to suggest he was under instruction to dumb it down.
Of course, they changed their minds about the hiatus and did the Waid thing, which for me, means I haven't read a good DD story since the middle of the Brubaker run.

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#427 vance_astro  Moderator

That was an incident created by Frank Miller to show why Matt chose law as his profession. In context, Jack Murdock had always been adamant that his son would have a better life than he'd had, that he would be of some respected profession, not some street brawler, and getting into fights was absolutely forbidden. Matt got into a fight and came home quite pleased with himself while Jack was drunk. It broke Jack's heart and he clipped him, then was immediately horrified by it, and it was likely the only time anything like that ever happened. It has never diminished Matt's expressed love and respect for his father.

I just thought that was a funny picture to post because of what you the point you were making. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

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@qtmxd said:

@daredevil21134:

Okay, so I'm not getting that "you've reached your post limit" anymore. I'm glad that's done.

I don't think there's any major disagreement on the essentials of the Matt/Jack relationship.

I do think there was a good point made re Diggle, the degree to which he was to blame for Shadowland. After floundering through some arcs, I thought Brubaker gave a good send-off with leader of the Hand. What I thought was coming was a Batman Inc. type thing, where Matt would have a major organization at his call and be a player in the Avengers and SHIELD worlds. Still dark, but more fantasy and spies, and with the moral ambiguity of trying to lead a group of killers and keep them in line. But Marvel didn't go with that. I distinctly remember they announced they were putting him on hiatus, since they'd just done that with Thor. Maybe it made sense after 45 years of tepid sales. So what they wanted was a Ragnarok event, to obliterate DD. In that case, Diggle's possessed by a demon cliche was easy, and more than did the trick. Matt was degraded, lied to, manipulated, humiliated, beaten, and made a pawn and a fool. "There is no more Murdock.... there is only the Beast!" was a worse line than anything even Waid has written. But DIggle's first couple of issues did show some promise, and even his ongoing DD titles were superior enough to the Shadowland series to suggest he was under instruction to dumb it down.

Of course, they changed their minds about the hiatus and did the Waid thing, which for me, means I haven't read a good DD story since the middle of the Brubaker run.

Yeah, I agree man. I think the last DD story I enjoyed was DD 500

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@daredevil21134: After the Mr. Fear story, which I thought was quite good (although he did everything to Milla short of stuffing her in a refrigerator), I think he didn't know what to do next. A filler story, a weak Kingpin return, knock-off characters in Izzo and Lady Bullseye. The only part I liked was his guilty relationship with Dakota (though I could have done without the bullet in her neck). I wish I knew if he had an idea himself for where Leader of the Hand could have gone.
And as bad as Diggle was on Shadowland, it must have been the premise Marvel ordered... to decimate DD. He'd been beaten so many times though, and never had lost his dignity the way he did with Diggle.
Now Waid is making him into a different kind of fool.

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@qtmxd said:

@daredevil21134: After the Mr. Fear story, which I thought was quite good (although he did everything to Milla short of stuffing her in a refrigerator), I think he didn't know what to do next. A filler story, a weak Kingpin return, knock-off characters in Izzo and Lady Bullseye. The only part I liked was his guilty relationship with Dakota (though I could have done without the bullet in her neck). I wish I knew if he had an idea himself for where Leader of the Hand could have gone.

And as bad as Diggle was on Shadowland, it must have been the premise Marvel ordered... to decimate DD. He'd been beaten so many times though, and never had lost his dignity the way he did with Diggle.

Now Waid is making him into a different kind of fool.

Very true indeed. I thought Matt and Dakota were a really interesting pair. but I have to say I actually liked the filler issue with Big Ben Donavon. I never been a fan of Mila so as cruel as this may sound Mr Fear became one of my favorites simply for getting rid of Milla but I thought Brubaker spent way too much time drenching Matt in depression I was so glad when Dakota told him to get over it ,man I miss that character so much,now all's we got is an annoying wanna be silver age Lois Lane with Kirstin Mcduffiue

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#431 frozen  Moderator

Waid is an amazing writer.

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#432  Edited By qtmxd

@daredevil21134: Milla is character we disagree on, (what can I say, I like her :) ), but like her or not, her story, if not to continue for years, at the very least needs closure. It's one of Waid's many travesties that he just used her for a cheap shock. The next good writer needs to at least finish her story.
And except for her name, I also like Dakota and thought she and Matt make a really good match, and agreed, the current significant other is silver age Lois Lane. So much potential has been buried in the current run.

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@frozen said:

Waid is an amazing writer.

Yes but what kind of send off does Mila need? Most of Matt's relationships never end well so I don't think she should be an exception but i'm curious to know what would have like done?

@frozen said:

Waid is an amazing writer.

Just not on Daredevil

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@qtmxd said:

@daredevil21134: Milla is character we disagree on, (what can I say, I like her :) ), but like her or not, her story, if not to continue for years, at the very least needs closure. It's one of Waid's many travesties that he just used her for a cheap shock.

That's what Waid always does. What, specifically, did he do to Milla though?

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@qtmxd said:

@daredevil21134: Milla is character we disagree on, (what can I say, I like her :) ), but like her or not, her story, if not to continue for years, at the very least needs closure. It's one of Waid's many travesties that he just used her for a cheap shock.

That's what Waid always does. What, specifically, did he do to Milla though?

Well he put her in a crazy asylum and in a straight jacket but she was already driven crazy in Brubaker's run anyways so I see that as a non issue

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#436 frozen  Moderator
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#437  Edited By daredevil21134

@frozen said:

@daredevil21134: Waid's one of the best comic book writers of all time.

I'm not saying he's not i'm saying his work on DD doesn't isn't great and that's probably because he's not used to writing really dark stories,it's out of his comfort zone.Every character isn't for every writer,they are a lot of good writers that suck on different characters

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@jriddle73: Yeah, you already picked it up, I was referring to using the strait jacket and padded cell for shock effect. While isolation cells and restraints are still used, that strait jacket scenario has gone down dramatically since the 1950s, and maybe I should say for personal reasons, I resent using it to shock. And I didn't like the way Brubaker used it to end that arc either. Kind of the way a lot of people would feel if he'd used cancer simply as a gross out.
Btw, I think these threads are confirming your earlier statements that Waid's defenders don't really defend his DD work. They just criticize retcons, or claim he's still a breath of fresh air after doing this cartoon show for 4 years. And as you've said, good writing demands a certain level of consistency,logic, and plausibility... it's not just a series of random events where the writer can do absolutely anything he feels like at any time. Silver age DC was like that, and looking at their old covers can still be a lot of fun, but Lee, Kirby, and Ditko changed that with Marvel, demanding a certain level of realism and maturity, and while Waid can write emotion on occasion, even if it's wrongheaded, his plots are a throwback.

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@qtmxd said:

Btw, I think these threads are confirming your earlier statements that Waid's defenders don't really defend his DD work. They just criticize retcons, or claim he's still a breath of fresh air after doing this cartoon show for 4 years. And as you've said, good writing demands a certain level of consistency,logic, and plausibility... it's not just a series of random events where the writer can do absolutely anything he feels like at any time. Silver age DC was like that, and looking at their old covers can still be a lot of fun, but Lee, Kirby, and Ditko changed that with Marvel, demanding a certain level of realism and maturity, and while Waid can write emotion on occasion, even if it's wrongheaded, his plots are a throwback.

Yes, over on manwithoutfear, I've run into another thing his fans do instead of making any case for him: personal smears. Now, I criticize Waid and the response is that I'm a "troll" who has never read Daredevil (even though I offer a fairly detailed critique that references the canon regularly--something Waid's defenders can't and don't do) and who just wants to hate on poor Mark Waid. Thankfully, I haven't run into that here.

Early Silver Age DC--Waid's favorite milieu--was that way because it was still being written for children. Mort Weisinger squatted across the Superman titles like some black incubus in those years, draining all the life from them. The theoretical writers and artists were allowed almost no input--he doled out the detailed plots and demanded picture-book style artwork, drawn to exact specs--none of the Kirby-style dynamism or any effort to create sequence. Characters were one-dimensional, uber-simple, and easily identified as hero or villain, with no moral grey areas. A man without vision who was a tyrant, a jerk, a plagiarist, and had been on the books far too long. I love some of the artists who worked under Weisinger, particularly Kurt Schaffenberger and Curt Swan, but he was a constant stifling, crushing monkey on their backs (look at Wayne Boring's great early Superman artwork vs. how it looked after years of working under Weisinger). The Superman books of that period--and one can tell Waid has read them all--were terrible. The Bat-books, which, in practically every issue, put Batman through some sort of bizarre bodily transformation or had him battling aliens or some other such nonsense, were even worse.

The good things one can get from them--and this is true of Silver Age books in general, and really one of the hallmarks of that era--is a copious flow of ideas. Under Weisinger, this was a consequence of a burned-out hack who was simply throwing in everything and the kitchen sink. In more skilled hands, such as over at the then-new Green Lantern book or, much more so, over at Marvel, it was a much more deliberate outburst by extremely talented people who had real authorial skills, weren't just aiming at undemanding children, knew how to tell stories and cooked up good ones to tell. The books became lab experiments. Not every idea worked, of course. Many failed rather spectacularly. Many were silly in bad ways (as opposed to good ones), or had other problems. The ones that worked were, in competent hands, continued and shaped while the bad ones were allowed to fall by the wayside. When one reads, for example, prime Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four or Thor, they're regularly throwing out and dealing with ideas in a few panels' time that could have been turned into entire storylines that could have ran for several issues.

To note the obvious, Waid/Samnee is no Lee/Kirby. Waid's love for the Silver Age is, as already noted, blinding, but he takes all the wrong lessons from it. A literalist, he doesn't understand why it was such a great time and how its better points can still inform comics today. His delight in overbearing lightheartedness, stifling silliness for its own sake, contempt for consistency, and, in particular, aversion to moral complexity are all examples of elements that were, in their time, a product of simpler books for a simpler time--things comics outgrew--that he has converted into stifling rules for himself. A literalist "Silver Age" he tries to reimpose. And, of course, imposing them on most modern books amounts to a radical devolution of those books.

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A literalist "Silver Age" he tries to reimpose. And, of course, imposing them on most modern books amounts to a radical devolution of those books.
Good critiques. I think the knowledge, thought and effort you're putting into this will show in your own writing when the time comes.
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@qtmxd said:

A literalist "Silver Age" he tries to reimpose. And, of course, imposing them on most modern books amounts to a radical devolution of those books.
Good critiques. I think the knowledge, thought and effort you're putting into this will show in your own writing when the time comes.

Yup,@jriddle73 Is legendary,he makes points and backs them up

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Jesus @jonny_anonymous , there is even a thread of Anti-Waid Daredevil? But hey I can't blame you, I also hate Scott Snyder's Batman Zero Year with a passion while lot of people love it. I wish could make an official Anti-Zero Year thread.

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@madeinbangladesh: Sure, a lot of fans really don't like Waid-Devil.

I haven't seen that many dissenters outside of here in a way that Hulk fans were basically lobbying against Waid for his Hulk run. Unlike his Hulk work, Waid has the critics and some die hard fans on his side so it's not as if it's obvious criticism. Even Tony and Matt on either last week's or the week's before podcast dismissed you critics of Waid's run based on a lack of understanding so I don't think it's quite as general as other times Waid has mucked up.

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#445  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

@lvenger: What's your point? Do you spend much time on DD fan sites to see people complain on there as well? I doubt it. Not to mention Waid's run is the lowest selling DD book in decades.

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@lvenger: What's your point? Do you spend much time on DD fan sites to see people complain on there as well? I doubt it. Not to mention Waid's run is the lowest selling DD book in decades.

Easy does it Jonny, I was only noting general reaction I'd seen on other sites. I'm unaware if there are any other DD fansites complaining about Waid but given how well received his run has been, I doubt it. Even if sales aren't what they used to be, there's still critical acclaim from the masses to go on. If you ask most people about Waid's DD run who read comics, chances are that their reaction is going to be positive.

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#447  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

@lvenger: Chances are most people are either Waid fanboys or people who have never read Daredevil before. I'm getting sick of people telling me that I'm not a "real" Daredevil fan or that my opinion doesn't count for anything.

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@jonny_anonymous: When have people said that to you? That's out of order since you're probably one of the most knowledgeable and biggest DD fans on here. But people do tend to ostracise others based on likes and dislikes so that's nothing new. Doesn't change the truth though.

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@lvenger said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@madeinbangladesh: Sure, a lot of fans really don't like Waid-Devil.

I haven't seen that many dissenters outside of here in a way that Hulk fans were basically lobbying against Waid for his Hulk run. Unlike his Hulk work, Waid has the critics and some die hard fans on his side so it's not as if it's obvious criticism. Even Tony and Matt on either last week's or the week's before podcast dismissed you critics of Waid's run based on a lack of understanding so I don't think it's quite as general as other times Waid has mucked up.

They are out there they're just not as vocal as the naysayers

@jriddle73 Thoughts??

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@frozen said:

@daredevil21134: Waid's one of the best comic book writers of all time.

I'm not saying he's not i'm saying his work on DD doesn't isn't great and that's probably because he's not used to writing really dark stories,it's out of his comfort zone.Every character isn't for every writer,they are a lot of good writers that suck on different characters

Daredevil doesn't need to be dark. That is a matter of taste.

To note the obvious, Waid/Samnee is no Lee/Kirby. Waid's love for the Silver Age is, as already noted, blinding, but he takes all the wrong lessons from it. A literalist, he doesn't understand why it was such a great time and how its better points can still inform comics today. His delight in overbearing lightheartedness, stifling silliness for its own sake, contempt for consistency, and, in particular, aversion to moral complexity are all examples of elements that were, in their time, a product of simpler books for a simpler time--things comics outgrew--that he has converted into stifling rules for himself. A literalist "Silver Age" he tries to reimpose. And, of course, imposing them on most modern books amounts to a radical devolution of those books.

I don't see that Waid wants don't want to deal with grey area subjects he just does in another tone in stead of a often ver simplistic dark tone which have been around comics for a long time. Spawn, Batman and even Daredevil's bendis and Brubakers run has a feel of being dark for being dark. Now I don't mind the stories but is dark doesn't mark it more serious or real.

@lvenger: Chances are most people are either Waid fanboys or people who have never read Daredevil before. I'm getting sick of people telling me that I'm not a "real" Daredevil fan or that my opinion doesn't count for anything.

Well aren't you doing exactly the same against Waid fans?