#351 Edited by Lvenger (20677 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: I stand corrected then. Thanks for correcting me.

#352 Posted by Billy Batson (58143 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean do you think everybody would be happy if DC decided Batman was to dark and they reverted him back to his goofy Golden Age?

You probably mean Silver Age. Many seem to want that instead of the current silly grimdark stuff. After all Batman '66 and Li'l Gotham are the two best Bat-books :p

BB

#353 Edited by Jonny_Anonymous (33885 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@jonny_anonymous: Conversely, Waid's run has been well received by most critics and most fans alike, the same fans and critics who presumably praised the darker period of story telling as well I imagine. It's even won an Eisner and I can't remember Brubaker or Bendis' run winning that. But obviously, a shift to a lighter style of story telling would be jarring for those who are more accustomed to DD's darker tone. Though I think Waid has glossed over the darker stuff to show Matt moving on with his life and attitude.

Bendis won two Eisners for best writer when he was writing Daredevil (among Alias, Powers and USM) and his Daredevil also won an Eisner for best continuing series in 2003.

BB

Brubaker also won ones in 07, 08 and 10 for best writer and a Harvey award in 07 as well.

#354 Posted by Lvenger (20677 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous: Were those for his Daredevil work or his Captain America work or his other work?

#355 Posted by Billy Batson (58143 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@jonny_anonymous: Were those for his Daredevil work or his Captain America work or his other work?

All his work.

BB

#356 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33885 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@jonny_anonymous: Were those for his Daredevil work or his Captain America work or his other work?

The Harvey Award was for DD specifically the rest where for all his work

#358 Edited by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@lvenger said:

This might interest the regular posters on here as an interesting counter argument against the backlash of Waid's run: http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/spoiler-saturday-why-mark-waid-isnt.html

I've completely stop reading Daredevil

NO!!!!!!! NO.NO!

Parker sold his SOUL to the Devil.Parker DIED.And i'm still reading Spider-Man.......you CAN'T give DD up!!

I still been buying his comics I just don't read read them but now you have convinced me to read them.again!!!

Hers is my response,I copy pasted it from another topic I responded to a few months back

Yes, the stories Denny O'neil wrote are classic noir style Daredevil stories that don't have Matt Murdock walking around brooding on how crappy his life is 27/7.They are fun good stories that have it's own style of humor.Look no further than a character called Micah Synn.He also wrote an epic story where Daredevil went to Japan and met a woman named Yuriko who would later become Lady Deathstrike,it one of my favorite Daredevil stories ever.A lot of people assume Mark Waid critics don't like his work because he writes a lighter tone but that's not true I have other reasons why I don't like his work outside of the tone of the book.Another writer that wrote a lot of good noir style Daredevil stories was Ann Nocenti,a lot of people just remember her for her Typhoid Mary stories but she had one of the longest runs in Daredevil history and a lot of her stories had a kind,gentle Matt Murdock trying rebuild his life after Born Again with Karen Page they were even some funny parts with a group of kids named the Fat boys.Her Daredevil didn't really start brooding until towards the end of her 5 year run.D.G Chichester also wrote a lot of stories of a not so brooding Matt Murdock,but kept the book very adult orientated,but just like Nocenti people only remember him for his Fall from Grace and Tree of Knowledge stories but before that he had wrote good noir style crime stories without screwing with Murdock's personal life too much, as a matter fact he wrote my favorite Daredevil and Spider-Man team up when they take on a criminal named the surgeon general.There are ways to write good Daredevil stories without him complaining about how crappy his life is and staying true to who he is.Which is a bad ass street vigilante that lets his fighting do the talking.You don't have to ruin his personal life to make good Daredevil stories nor do you have to make him some lighthearted,quick witted swash buckling super hero either.Daredevil Redemption is also another story that was good without screwing with his personal life.

#359 Posted by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@lvenger said:

This might interest the regular posters on here as an interesting counter argument against the backlash of Waid's run: http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/spoiler-saturday-why-mark-waid-isnt.html

I've completely stop reading Daredevil

NO!!!!!!! NO.NO!

Parker sold his SOUL to the Devil.Parker DIED.And i'm still reading Spider-Man.......you CAN'T give DD up!!

I still been buying his comics I just don't read read them but now you have convinced me to read them.again!!!

Hers is my response,I copy pasted it from another topic I responded to a few months back

Yes, the stories Denny O'neil wrote are classic noir style Daredevil stories that don't have Matt Murdock walking around brooding on how crappy his life is 27/7.They are fun good stories that have it's own style of humor.Look no further than a character called Micah Synn.He also wrote an epic story where Daredevil went to Japan and met a woman named Yuriko who would later become Lady Deathstrike,it one of my favorite Daredevil stories ever.A lot of people assume Mark Waid critics don't like his work because he writes a lighter tone but that's not true I have other reasons why I don't like his work outside of the tone of the book.Another writer that wrote a lot of good noir style Daredevil stories was Ann Nocenti,a lot of people just remember her for her Typhoid Mary stories but she had one of the longest runs in Daredevil history and a lot of her stories had a kind,gentle Matt Murdock trying rebuild his life after Born Again with Karen Page they were even some funny parts with a group of kids named the Fat boys.Her Daredevil didn't really start brooding until towards the end of her 5 year run.D.G Chichester also wrote a lot of stories of a not so brooding Matt Murdock,but kept the book very adult orientated,but just like Nocenti people only remember him for his Fall from Grace and Tree of Knowledge stories but before that he had wrote good noir style crime stories without screwing with Murdock's personal life too much, as a matter fact he wrote my favorite Daredevil and Spider-Man team up when they take on a criminal named the surgeon general.There are ways to write good Daredevil stories without him complaining about how crappy his life is and staying true to who he is.Which is a bad ass street vigilante that lets his fighting do the talking.You don't have to ruin his personal life to make good Daredevil stories nor do you have to make him some lighthearted,quick witted swash buckling super hero either.Daredevil Redemption is also another story that was good without screwing with his personal life.

Fair points.I get it.

#360 Edited by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: That long post was directed to Ivenger. What i'm saying to you is you're right about me,I should be reading Daredevil.If you can hang with Spidey through all the past and current bs I can do the same with Daredevil .But I never completely gave up on him since I was still purchasing his comics,just not reading them but now I will read them again now.

#361 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous: @punyparker: I just read all the issues I missed and my feelings on this series remains the same.I'm really not digging the Sons of serpent stuff and I have no idea why he's making Matt Murdock such a non believer of the supernatural world,the son of Mephisto's 1st appearance happened to be in Daredevil and Mephisto himself has had conversations with Daredevil so Mark Waid should probably do a little more research before he makes Daredevil make comments like i'm not sure I believe in Satan Werewolves or Frankenstein but anyways personally I just think this series is over hyped and really average at best but I will continue to read it.

#362 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33885 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: Not read it for a long time, not going to start any time soon.

#363 Edited by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker: @daredevil21134:

@jonny_anonymous said:

Not read it for a long time, not going to start any time soon. LOL! Another thing is Matt wouldn't have picture another person in his dream as Foggy because he actually knows what Foggy looks like.I guess Mark Waid forgot that Matt regained his sight in the Daredevil/ Captain universe issue where he seen Foggy.Anyways i'm done

#364 Posted by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: Now with the Waid hate,and everything......do you think that the Spider-man:Family Bussiness graphic novel,by Waid,will be any good?!...

#365 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: Now with the Waid hate,and everything......do you think that the Spider-man:Family Bussiness graphic novel,by Waid,will be any good?!...

I think Waid writes a very good Spider Man so i'm going to say yes.Remember I don't hate Waid personally I think he's a damn good writer,I just don't think he's right for Daredevil

#366 Edited by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134: Now with the Waid hate,and everything......do you think that the Spider-man:Family Bussiness graphic novel,by Waid,will be any good?!...

I think Waid writes a very good Spider Man so i'm going to say yes.Remember I don't hate Waid personally I think he's a damn good writer,I just don't think he's right for Daredevil

Same feeling.

For me from what i read,DD was always,Bendis and Miller.

#367 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134: Now with the Waid hate,and everything......do you think that the Spider-man:Family Bussiness graphic novel,by Waid,will be any good?!...

I think Waid writes a very good Spider Man so i'm going to say yes.Remember I don't hate Waid personally I think he's a damn good writer,I just don't think he's right for Daredevil

Same feeling.

For me from what i read,DD was always,Bendis and Miller.

Along with some other great talents like Nocenti, O'neil and Chickhester as well

#368 Posted by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134: Now with the Waid hate,and everything......do you think that the Spider-man:Family Bussiness graphic novel,by Waid,will be any good?!...

I think Waid writes a very good Spider Man so i'm going to say yes.Remember I don't hate Waid personally I think he's a damn good writer,I just don't think he's right for Daredevil

Same feeling.

For me from what i read,DD was always,Bendis and Miller.

Along with some other great talents like Nocenti, O'neil and Chickhester as well

Nocenti wrote a horrible Catwoman.

#369 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio
#370 Posted by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio
#371 Edited by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker said:

Nocenti wrote a horrible Catwoman.

I know that has become the popular opinion around here but I actually liked Nocenti's Catwoman.

Moderator
#372 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio
#373 Posted by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio
#374 Edited by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker said:

Nocenti wrote a horrible Catwoman.

I know that has become the popular opinion around here but I actually liked Nocenti's Catwoman.

I get it,and i can easily accept it......
I didn't mind Daredevil the movie (@daredevil21134 will KILL me for this....) ,and liked a lot of comics that were bashed by the public.....so i totally get that.
ut i agree with the mass,on Nocenti's Selina...

#375 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12011 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

#376 Edited by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker:

@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

I personally don't like Waid's run but everybody is different.You can always pick up a tpb by Bendis Kevin Smith or Frank Miller,those I highly recommend

I liked the director's cut

#377 Edited by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio
#378 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12011 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker:

@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

I personally don't like Waid's run but everybody is different.You can always pick up a tpb by Bendis Kevin Smith or Frank Miller,those I highly recommend

I liked the director's cut

Bendis, Smith, and Miller. I'll take note. Thanks!

#379 Posted by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker: But she wrote a great Daredevil lol

Haven't read,it......concidering to,now!

you should bro

I will, Matt only for you.

Let the good times roll Pete.

WOO-HOO!!!

@punyparker:

@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

I personally don't like Waid's run but everybody is different.You can always pick up a tpb by Bendis Kevin Smith or Frank Miller,those I highly recommend

I liked the director's cut

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker:

@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

I personally don't like Waid's run but everybody is different.You can always pick up a tpb by Bendis Kevin Smith or Frank Miller,those I highly recommend

I liked the director's cut

Bendis, Smith, and Miller. I'll take note. Thanks!

I really don't know what to think of Smith as a writer....

#380 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio
#381 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@punyparker:

@arturocalakayvee said:

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

I personally don't like Waid's run but everybody is different.You can always pick up a tpb by Bendis Kevin Smith or Frank Miller,those I highly recommend

I liked the director's cut

Bendis, Smith, and Miller. I'll take note. Thanks!

If you need help let me know i'll be glad to assist

#382 Edited by PunyParker (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

''Spider-Man Black Cat:The Evil That Men Do'' was great,in my opinion......Daredevil was...so 'n so.......i read some Batman stories,they were ok......

#383 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio
#384 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12011 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: Awesome, thanks! If I need help I'll be sure to send you a message.

#385 Posted by jriddle73 (119 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread definitely needs some more attention. Waid never gets any better.

#387 Edited by Spideysense44 (3519 posts) - - Show Bio

@jriddle73 said:

This thread definitely needs some more attention. Waid never gets any better.

you should join us on the Daredevil discussion thread

#388 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@spideysense44:

This thread definitely needs some more attention. Waid never gets any better.

I can't understand how he seems to receive more praise than Miller Bendis and all those other greats. it's insane

#389 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I was thinking of picking up the ANMN DareDevil relaunch because I haven't read DareDevil before but all this hate just makes me question it.

Now since you went back and read everything you now know how me and @jonny_anonymous feels lol

#390 Edited by qtmxd (297 posts) - - Show Bio

"As for the suggestion that Jack Murdock will turn out to be an abuser, I wouldn't worry so much about that. He's a boxer and an old school character, so that he might have been abusive, especially if drinking, is no surprise to a realist. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it be left unsaid. And I never wondered why Maggie left. It's a reasonable inference. And I think I'd be more concerned if Waid decides to make her a space alien. And as much as I hate what's been going on not just now, but for the entire run, I'm still waiting to see how much of it will be retconned out." I'm quoting this from the other thread, though I've written whole essays on it on manwithoutfear. I've noticed some comments justifying arguments on the basis of Eisner awards. As for any award, I'm happy if someone I like gets them, but I have no respect for their authority. We all make up our own minds.

#391 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@qtmxd said:

"As for the suggestion that Jack Murdock will turn out to be an abuser, I wouldn't worry so much about that. He's a boxer and an old school character, so that he might have been abusive, especially if drinking, is no surprise to a realist. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it be left unsaid. And I never wondered why Maggie left. It's a reasonable inference. And I think I'd be more concerned if Waid decides to make her a space alien. And as much as I hate what's been going on not just now, but for the entire run, I'm still waiting to see how much of it will be retconned out." I'm quoting this from the other thread, though I've written whole essays on it on manwithoutfear. I've noticed some comments justifying arguments on the basis of Eisner awards. As for any award, I'm happy if someone I like gets them, but I have no respect for their authority. We all make up our own minds.

Too true

#392 Posted by jriddle73 (119 posts) - - Show Bio

Something I wrote over at manwithoutfear only 12 days ago: "Virtually every DD writer for 4 decades prior to Waid--good writers, bad writers, and every other writer--has stressed that element of the character, Matt as his father's son. No one who has read DD for any length of time at all (except perhaps Waid's DD) has missed that constant theme..."

And now, only days later, that awful preview of #6 and the revelation that Waid is going to be allowed to screw with this.

#393 Posted by tupiaz (2218 posts) - - Show Bio
@qtmxd said:

"As for the suggestion that Jack Murdock will turn out to be an abuser, I wouldn't worry so much about that. He's a boxer and an old school character, so that he might have been abusive, especially if drinking, is no surprise to a realist. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it be left unsaid. And I never wondered why Maggie left. It's a reasonable inference. And I think I'd be more concerned if Waid decides to make her a space alien. And as much as I hate what's been going on not just now, but for the entire run, I'm still waiting to see how much of it will be retconned out." I'm quoting this from the other thread, though I've written whole essays on it on manwithoutfear. I've noticed some comments justifying arguments on the basis of Eisner awards. As for any award, I'm happy if someone I like gets them, but I have no respect for their authority. We all make up our own minds.

He has already been seen as abusive in Battlin' Jack Murdock. I know it is non canon and therefore didn't happen officially however Jack has been characterise like an abusive father before and it is not new in the mythos. I don't think the story will drastically change Maggie. Maggie is on the cover shown as a caring and loving mother holding her child (I assume it is Matt as a baby). Original Sin is about a sin the watcher have seen but isn't know by the main character. The story seems to clearly change the view Matt see his father not his Mother (he put dirt on his father's grave not his mother's). The story will therefore I think show Jack as an abusive father and/or husband.

#394 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@jriddle73:

@tupiaz said:
@qtmxd said:

"As for the suggestion that Jack Murdock will turn out to be an abuser, I wouldn't worry so much about that. He's a boxer and an old school character, so that he might have been abusive, especially if drinking, is no surprise to a realist. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it be left unsaid. And I never wondered why Maggie left. It's a reasonable inference. And I think I'd be more concerned if Waid decides to make her a space alien. And as much as I hate what's been going on not just now, but for the entire run, I'm still waiting to see how much of it will be retconned out." I'm quoting this from the other thread, though I've written whole essays on it on manwithoutfear. I've noticed some comments justifying arguments on the basis of Eisner awards. As for any award, I'm happy if someone I like gets them, but I have no respect for their authority. We all make up our own minds.

He has already been seen as abusive in Battlin' Jack Murdock. I know it is non canon and therefore didn't happen officially however Jack has been characterise like an abusive father before and it is not new in the mythos. I don't think the story will drastically change Maggie. Maggie is on the cover shown as a caring and loving mother holding her child (I assume it is Matt as a baby). Original Sin is about a sin the watcher have seen but isn't know by the main character. The story seems to clearly change the view Matt see his father not his Mother (he put dirt on his father's grave not his mother's). The story will therefore I think show Jack as an abusive father and/or husband.

Which is something i'm not interested in seeing. Call Jack what you want but Maggie ran away from her responsibilities out of fear of disappointing her parents and left an infant Matt on the dirty streets of Hell's Kitchen, she literally left the baby on the sidewalk. I don't want Waid giving maggie a clean slate here.Jack has enough dirt on him already but i'll wait and see what happenes

@jriddle thoughts?

#395 Edited by jriddle73 (119 posts) - - Show Bio

This definitely belongs here:

Matt has always been his father's son. "Dad. He was the greatest." The basic decency, the pride, the drive to never quit--it's all Jack Murdock. "The measure of a man is not in how he gets knocked down to the mat; it's in how he gets up." Fogwell's Gym has been treated, in Daredevil, as practically a religious shrine. Battlin' Jack was human and did things, at times, of which he was not proud. Matt knows this, understands this, and has unconditionally loved him anyway, warts and all, and never judged him. Times were hard and his father did the best he could, and wanted better for his son. All of this is a part of DD's story that has been with him from the beginning, through every iteration. It was there when the book had very little in the way of an unique soul and it's been reinforced by every writer who has worked on the character at any length since Frank Miller gave it one.

Screwing with that is something that would provoke pretty much universal outrage of a fairly substantial nature among actual DD fans, regardless of who was manning the screw.

In the context of Waid's run, it comes after years in which Waid has gone out of his way to strip every bit of Daredevil from Daredevil until there's virtually nothing left, and now he's going into the past to try to take this from DD as well. More of Waid's standard shock-value gimmicks because--as usual--he's incapable of selling a book without them.

Disgraceful.

Get this clown off my Daredevil!

#396 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

This definitely belongs here:

Matt has always been his father's son. "Dad. He was the greatest." The basic decency, the pride, the drive to never quit--it's all Jack Murdock. "The measure of a man is not in how he gets knocked down to the mat; it's in how he gets up." Fogwell's Gym has been treated, in Daredevil, as practically a religious shrine. Battlin' Jack was human and did things, at times, of which he was not proud. Matt knows this, understands this, and has unconditionally loved him anyway, warts and all, and never judged him. Times were hard and his father did the best he could, and wanted better for his son. All of this is a part of DD's story that has been with him from the beginning, through every iteration. It was there when the book had very little in the way of an unique soul and it's been reinforced by every writer who has worked on the character at any length since Frank Miller gave it one.

Screwing with that is something that would provoke pretty much universal outrage of a fairly substantial nature among actual DD fans, regardless of who was manning the screw.

In the context of Waid's run, it comes after years in which Waid has gone out of his way to strip every bit of Daredevil from Daredevil until there's virtually nothing left, and now he's going into the past to try to take this from DD as well. More of Waid's standard shock-value gimmicks because--as usual--he's incapable of selling a book without them.

Disgraceful.

Get this clown off my Daredevil!

Hopefully do away with Waid's garbage series soon

#397 Posted by tupiaz (2218 posts) - - Show Bio

@jriddle73:

@tupiaz said:
@qtmxd said:

"As for the suggestion that Jack Murdock will turn out to be an abuser, I wouldn't worry so much about that. He's a boxer and an old school character, so that he might have been abusive, especially if drinking, is no surprise to a realist. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it be left unsaid. And I never wondered why Maggie left. It's a reasonable inference. And I think I'd be more concerned if Waid decides to make her a space alien. And as much as I hate what's been going on not just now, but for the entire run, I'm still waiting to see how much of it will be retconned out." I'm quoting this from the other thread, though I've written whole essays on it on manwithoutfear. I've noticed some comments justifying arguments on the basis of Eisner awards. As for any award, I'm happy if someone I like gets them, but I have no respect for their authority. We all make up our own minds.

He has already been seen as abusive in Battlin' Jack Murdock. I know it is non canon and therefore didn't happen officially however Jack has been characterise like an abusive father before and it is not new in the mythos. I don't think the story will drastically change Maggie. Maggie is on the cover shown as a caring and loving mother holding her child (I assume it is Matt as a baby). Original Sin is about a sin the watcher have seen but isn't know by the main character. The story seems to clearly change the view Matt see his father not his Mother (he put dirt on his father's grave not his mother's). The story will therefore I think show Jack as an abusive father and/or husband.

Which is something i'm not interested in seeing. Call Jack what you want but Maggie ran away from her responsibilities out of fear of disappointing her parents and left an infant Matt on the dirty streets of Hell's Kitchen, she literally left the baby on the sidewalk. I don't want Waid giving maggie a clean slate here.Jack has enough dirt on him already but i'll wait and see what happenes

@jriddle thoughts?

Where is this from the only comic I remember talking about Maggie and Jack's relationship I who Matt was turned in is Battlin' Jack Murdock and here he gives him to Jack. She is not leaving Matt on the streets. She here also says that Jack and Maggie has sinned against god. The reason why Maggie and Jack broke up has never been giving. Matt doesn't know why Maggie abandoned him he has just accepting it no question asked. In Batlin Jack Murdock which is the comic closes to given answer for Maggie and Jacks relationship. Jack doesn't know and to begin with things it is the child to begin with. Maggie then explains her father wouldn't approve and that they have sinned against god.

This definitely belongs here:

Matt has always been his father's son. "Dad. He was the greatest." The basic decency, the pride, the drive to never quit--it's all Jack Murdock. "The measure of a man is not in how he gets knocked down to the mat; it's in how he gets up." Fogwell's Gym has been treated, in Daredevil, as practically a religious shrine. Battlin' Jack was human and did things, at times, of which he was not proud. Matt knows this, understands this, and has unconditionally loved him anyway, warts and all, and never judged him. Times were hard and his father did the best he could, and wanted better for his son. All of this is a part of DD's story that has been with him from the beginning, through every iteration. It was there when the book had very little in the way of an unique soul and it's been reinforced by every writer who has worked on the character at any length since Frank Miller gave it one.

Screwing with that is something that would provoke pretty much universal outrage of a fairly substantial nature among actual DD fans, regardless of who was manning the screw.

In the context of Waid's run, it comes after years in which Waid has gone out of his way to strip every bit of Daredevil from Daredevil until there's virtually nothing left, and now he's going into the past to try to take this from DD as well. More of Waid's standard shock-value gimmicks because--as usual--he's incapable of selling a book without them.

Disgraceful.

Get this clown off my Daredevil!

Has Matt always adored his dad? Yes, but has he been an angel? No, It is shown in Miller's run, Battlin' Jack Murdock, Daredevil: Father and probably more stories I have forgotten that Jack did neglect Matt as a child and had a rough edge if not against Matt then against other people.

#398 Edited by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@jriddle73:

@tupiaz said:
@qtmxd said:

"As for the suggestion that Jack Murdock will turn out to be an abuser, I wouldn't worry so much about that. He's a boxer and an old school character, so that he might have been abusive, especially if drinking, is no surprise to a realist. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer it be left unsaid. And I never wondered why Maggie left. It's a reasonable inference. And I think I'd be more concerned if Waid decides to make her a space alien. And as much as I hate what's been going on not just now, but for the entire run, I'm still waiting to see how much of it will be retconned out." I'm quoting this from the other thread, though I've written whole essays on it on manwithoutfear. I've noticed some comments justifying arguments on the basis of Eisner awards. As for any award, I'm happy if someone I like gets them, but I have no respect for their authority. We all make up our own minds.

He has already been seen as abusive in Battlin' Jack Murdock. I know it is non canon and therefore didn't happen officially however Jack has been characterise like an abusive father before and it is not new in the mythos. I don't think the story will drastically change Maggie. Maggie is on the cover shown as a caring and loving mother holding her child (I assume it is Matt as a baby). Original Sin is about a sin the watcher have seen but isn't know by the main character. The story seems to clearly change the view Matt see his father not his Mother (he put dirt on his father's grave not his mother's). The story will therefore I think show Jack as an abusive father and/or husband.

Which is something i'm not interested in seeing. Call Jack what you want but Maggie ran away from her responsibilities out of fear of disappointing her parents and left an infant Matt on the dirty streets of Hell's Kitchen, she literally left the baby on the sidewalk. I don't want Waid giving maggie a clean slate here.Jack has enough dirt on him already but i'll wait and see what happenes

@jriddle thoughts?

Where is this from the only comic I remember talking about Maggie and Jack's relationship I who Matt was turned in is Battlin' Jack Murdock and here he gives him to Jack. She is not leaving Matt on the streets. She here also says that Jack and Maggie has sinned against god. The reason why Maggie and Jack broke up has never been giving. Matt doesn't know why Maggie abandoned him he has just accepting it no question asked. In Batlin Jack Murdock which is the comic closes to given answer for Maggie and Jacks relationship. Jack doesn't know and to begin with things it is the child to begin with. Maggie then explains her father wouldn't approve and that they have sinned against god.

@jriddle73 said:

This definitely belongs here:

Matt has always been his father's son. "Dad. He was the greatest." The basic decency, the pride, the drive to never quit--it's all Jack Murdock. "The measure of a man is not in how he gets knocked down to the mat; it's in how he gets up." Fogwell's Gym has been treated, in Daredevil, as practically a religious shrine. Battlin' Jack was human and did things, at times, of which he was not proud. Matt knows this, understands this, and has unconditionally loved him anyway, warts and all, and never judged him. Times were hard and his father did the best he could, and wanted better for his son. All of this is a part of DD's story that has been with him from the beginning, through every iteration. It was there when the book had very little in the way of an unique soul and it's been reinforced by every writer who has worked on the character at any length since Frank Miller gave it one.

Screwing with that is something that would provoke pretty much universal outrage of a fairly substantial nature among actual DD fans, regardless of who was manning the screw.

In the context of Waid's run, it comes after years in which Waid has gone out of his way to strip every bit of Daredevil from Daredevil until there's virtually nothing left, and now he's going into the past to try to take this from DD as well. More of Waid's standard shock-value gimmicks because--as usual--he's incapable of selling a book without them.

Disgraceful.

Get this clown off my Daredevil!

Has Matt always adored his dad? Yes, but has he been an angel? No, It is shown in Miller's run, Battlin' Jack Murdock, Daredevil: Father and probably more stories I have forgotten that Jack did neglect Matt as a child and had a rough edge if not against Matt then against other people.

And with all that he never disliked him and nor did he ever resent him enough to put mud over his grave. And I just checked the issue, she didn't leave him on the street but she did put him down on the ground before she walked out on them

#399 Posted by tupiaz (2218 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: What issue are you talking about? And nope Matt didn't but Matt is also a very forgiving person. Just look at his Mother, Karen and his dad. But it would not it would not be out of character for Jack to have been abusive. If Matt figure out that his father was abusive could that make him put mud on his dad grave? Yes, I think so.
Personally I think it is a much bigger problem with the panel where Jack is happy with his boxing gloves contra the panel where he is unhappy/angry holding Matt. That goes against mythos that his dad didn't cared for him.

#400 Posted by daredevil21134 (12090 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

@daredevil21134: What issue are you talking about? And nope Matt didn't but Matt is also a very forgiving person. Just look at his Mother, Karen and his dad. But it would not it would not be out of character for Jack to have been abusive. If Matt figure out that his father was abusive could that make him put mud on his dad grave? Yes, I think so.

Personally I think it is a much bigger problem with the panel where Jack is happy with his boxing gloves contra the panel where he is unhappy/angry holding Matt. That goes against mythos that his dad didn't cared for him.

I think that's where we disagree I can't see Matt putting dirt over his Father's grave at no cost especially over the woman that abandoned him.Either way I don't like Waid playing with this. He could have done something else instead of this