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Posted by Sophisticated_Ignorance

Don't know if its already been posted because haven't skimmed the thread, but a realistic fight between Bats and Supes would go down like this.

Batman beating Suoes is not plausible, its ridiculous and unrealistic even by comic standards. I don't care if he has kyrptonite and has cool gadgets and intelligence. Superman can throw mountains and move FTL lol.

Edited by DeathpooltheT1000

@bezza said:

@superguy1591:

Batman doesn't have Luthor's IQ but he is a supreme strategist, very cunning and plans. He cant afford to rush in against God like powerhouses, so yes I believe it is plausible that he could beat Superman given the right circumstances....obviously with your known antipathy towards Batman, I don't expect you to agree!

So all the people who dont believe that Batman is the best heroe evur, hates or dislike the character.

That isnt Batman this is Batman.

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Posted by Bezza

@superguy1591:

Batman doesn't have Luthor's IQ but he is a supreme strategist, very cunning and plans. He cant afford to rush in against God like powerhouses, so yes I believe it is plausible that he could beat Superman given the right circumstances....obviously with your known antipathy towards Batman, I don't expect you to agree!

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000
@muyjingo said:

@superguy1591: Why do you consider Luthor to be smarter than Batman?

Because he is the Numero 1.

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Edited by Superguy1591

@muyjingo: Batma's IQ is 190; Luthor's IQ is north of 200, though never documented due to his need to challenge Superman's near unlimited might.

Lex Luthor is so genius that Superman BELIEVES that if Lex put his mind to it he could solve a lot of the world's problems. That's something Superman has never offered up to Bruce.

Lastly, Lex built his company from the ground; he didn't inherit like Bruce.

Keep in mind that Lex was created to fight Superman with his mind; Batman was created to fight mobsters. His most powerful rogue is Clayface; a guy Luthor and Superman would make very quick work of.

Posted by MuyJingo

@superguy1591: Why do you consider Luthor to be smarter than Batman?

Posted by Superguy1591

@bezza said:

@muyjingo said:

@bezza: Yeah, Superman get's the majority obviously.

There are people who think Batman has no chance no matter what he does...it's that thought process I don't understand. Within the world of the DCU, there are numerous options available to him.

Absolutely. Superman has two fundamental weaknesses, plus super-hearing, which could be attacked via sonics....There is no reason why Batman couldn't attack Superman using these, as Lex Luthor has done countless times before. People just have an issue coz its Batman.

That's only a weakness if he's listening. You can't just use supersonics and expect him to be affected, that's first of all. Second of all Luthor has never beaten Superman...so...

Thirdly, Luthor is smarter than Batman. Learn to comprehend that, people. Comparing Luthor to Bruce is like comparing me to Steven Hawkings; theyre not equals.

Posted by MuyJingo
Posted by dimitridkatsis

Don't know if it's plausible but it is impossible.

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

@muyjingo said:

@logy5000 said:

@muyjingo said:

@silverpool: He just never seems to use it.

@logy5000: Funny, he didn't in Doomed.

And that's exactly the point I addressed earlier. The writers always seem to ignore that Clark can hear everything on the planet just so that Bruce can have a way to win.

Well, no. It wouldn't be just so Bruce could win. It is because it is ridiculous for Superman to be that powerful.

There seems to be a vast difference between Superman's technical powers and his actually, commonly observed powers.

That power alone, of being able to hear everything on the planet is rarely used. If he employed it all the time he wouldn't have trouble finding people and would always know of any plan against him. It would limit the stories that are able to be told.

Honestly, when was the last time that power was used or seen? It is far easier to give numerous examples of times it could have been used, but for some reason wasn't.

Point being, if such a power was not used in a story of Batman defeating Superman, it would be in line with most Superman stories. Which is fine by me.

Oh the irony.

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Edited by MuyJingo

@logy5000 said:

@muyjingo said:

@silverpool: He just never seems to use it.

@logy5000: Funny, he didn't in Doomed.

And that's exactly the point I addressed earlier. The writers always seem to ignore that Clark can hear everything on the planet just so that Bruce can have a way to win.

Well, no. It wouldn't be just so Bruce could win. It is because it is ridiculous for Superman to be that powerful.

There seems to be a vast difference between Superman's technical powers and his actually, commonly observed powers.

That power alone, of being able to hear everything on the planet is rarely used. If he employed it all the time he wouldn't have trouble finding people and would always know of any plan against him. It would limit the stories that are able to be told.

Honestly, when was the last time that power was used or seen? It is far easier to give numerous examples of times it could have been used, but for some reason wasn't.

Point being, if such a power was not used in a story of Batman defeating Superman, it would be in line with most Superman stories. Which is fine by me.

Posted by logy5000

@muyjingo said:

@silverpool: He just never seems to use it.

@logy5000: Funny, he didn't in Doomed.

And that's exactly the point I addressed earlier. The writers always seem to ignore that Clark can hear everything on the planet just so that Bruce can have a way to win.

Posted by Bezza

@muyjingo said:

@bezza: Yeah, Superman get's the majority obviously.

There are people who think Batman has no chance no matter what he does...it's that thought process I don't understand. Within the world of the DCU, there are numerous options available to him.

Absolutely. Superman has two fundamental weaknesses, plus super-hearing, which could be attacked via sonics....There is no reason why Batman couldn't attack Superman using these, as Lex Luthor has done countless times before. People just have an issue coz its Batman.

Posted by w0nd

Meh could go either or. It is a comic after all. Stranger things have happened

Posted by MuyJingo

@bezza: Yeah, Superman get's the majority obviously.

There are people who think Batman has no chance no matter what he does...it's that thought process I don't understand. Within the world of the DCU, there are numerous options available to him.

Posted by Bezza

Well I've always thought Batman could beat Superman. In my copy of Last Son, Lex Luthor kills a kryptonian with a kryptonite gun blast through the head. Lex has no super-powers, so why couldn't Batman, who also has no super-powers beat Superman given the right circumstances. Having said that you'd give Superman 9/10 majority in normal circumstances!

Edited by MuyJingo
Posted by SilverPool

Superman definitely has a superior mind over Batman.

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

@muyjingo said:

@logy5000: Sure, and Bruce could lace the atmosphere with Kryptonite, not giving him a chance.

And my underware could become a master mind and take over the world.

But that isnt happening.

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Posted by J_L

The never ending debate continues...

Edited by logy5000

@muyjingo: And Clark would hear it before Bruce got the chance.

Edited by MuyJingo

@logy5000: Sure, and Bruce could lace the atmosphere with Kryptonite, not giving him a chance.

Posted by logy5000
Edited by DeathpooltheT1000

Stop using The Dark Knight Returns, its a philosophical fight, Batman beats Superman under moral, ethic and ideological reasons.

Also its obvious Clark would had won since his power would had back at some point, Bruce had to find a way to leave his message to Clark before he go into full power Superman.

It wasnt a fist fight.

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Posted by MuyJingo

@wildvine said:

@muyjingo: It could be extensive depending on the availability of Kryptonite and nano technology, actually, as neither is super common as I said. Therefore Superman mostly loses do to bad writing/PIS.

Why are you claiming kryptonite/nano tech is not very common? I don't think availability has really been established N52. Pre N52, nano tech was fairly common, and kryptonite varied as needed.

I don't think relying on either of these plot devices would be bad writing or PIS.

Posted by wildvine

@muyjingo: It could be extensive depending on the availability of Kryptonite and nano technology, actually, as neither is super common as I said. Therefore Superman mostly loses do to bad writing/PIS.

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Edited by MuyJingo

@wildvine: It's not overly extensive prep. The point of my post was just to show that Bruce's skills allow him to hide and that there is technology to both hide from Superman, hinder him and counter some of his powers.

Using a combination of these methods, there is no reason a story could not be written with Bruce realistically beating Superman, without making Superman look foolish.

Posted by wildvine

@muyjingo: Like I said, anyone can beat Supes with that kind of prep. Tenderhart the carebear could with that prep.

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Posted by dagmar_merrill

He's the godamn batman.

Posted by MuyJingo

@wildvine:

Superman's intellect is very, very inconstantly portrayed. He can read and absorb information from textbooks in minutes, and yet other times gets outsmarted by low level criminals or relies on Bruce to solve something.

Kryptonite is as common as it needs to be for the plot. I'm not sure how prevalent it is in the New 52.

Yes, this argument boils down to with prep. Because when Bane had his post about how it wouldn't be possible under any circumstances, I wanted to show why it could be.

How does X-ray trump disguises?

I don't know how common it is, but it was common enough that it was accessible when needed.

Summary, is there are numerous ways for Bruce to take Clark down with prep.

@edgeofreason: morals off, Bruce with no prep, Clark wins, absolutely.

@logy5000: Clark would never throw the moon into the earth to kill one person, evil or not.

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

You just explain the fact Batman is the guy that breaks all the limits vs the man that has no limits.

Its the way the write them and you explain why this fight will always end one way.

I bow to you sir.

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Posted by logy5000
Edited by DeathpooltheT1000

@logy5000 said:

The more technology and prep that writers give him (Batman) in order to win, the more ridiculous it seems.

Clark can hear everything on the planet, so it seems like a huge plot convenience to me that Bruce can prep himself so much without Clark knowing.

Bruce is still just a human, no matter how much he works out or how smart he is. He has limits.

Even if Bruce were prepped to the maximum, Clark could still just grab the moon and hit Earth with it, killing Bruce in the process.

So really, there's no plausible reason at all for Batman to beat Superman in a fight that isn't lopsided on the writers' part just for the sake of Batman surviving the fight.

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Posted by Tikbaz

Your fight amounts to fanfiction and requires that Clark be out of character stupid, they've already shown that he knows how Bruce thinks better than most, Clark can see vitals so can hit someone with a single punch hard enough to knock them out or just restrain him in metal, also using someone else's resources wouldn't be a win for Batman.

@tikbaz said:

Also, this is an intentionally silly scenario, don't take it to heart. :)

I was showcasing make believe people in made up situations. Would anyone ever want to read a story like this where Clark is so out of character? Nope, of course not. I certainly wouldn't. But it doesn't take away from what I stated in my first post:

@tikbaz said:

Of course it's completely plausible that Batman could beat Superman, it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character.

I don't believe that we are in disagreement on this statement. Everything else I wrote are just some ways off the top of my head that it could be written. Mind you, I also said that none of this is actually likely because Superman is better than this.

@logy5000 said:

The more technology and prep that writers give him (Batman) in order to win, the more ridiculous it seems.

Bruce is still just a human, no matter how much he works out or how smart he is. He has limits.

Even if Bruce were prepped to the maximum, Clark could still just grab the moon and hit Earth with it, killing Bruce in the process.

I completely agree.

Posted by Superguy1591

I will never understand why it is so completely incomprehensible that Batman *in certain scenarios* can beat Superman ... but Superman can totally have an archvillain that is largely the same as Batman (as in, unlimited resources, power suits, genius etc.). If Superman can never, *ever* be defeated by a human, what's the point of reading any comic with Lex Luthor in it? Superman is basically just humoring him.

Anyway, nice blog; I agree with you. Sneak-attacks especially is what I'd bet on.

He is. Their struggle is more a philosophical one than a battle of might. Lex knows that the moment Superman wants to end it, he could effortlessly.

Posted by redwingx

Batman can kill Superman because he's Batman.

Posted by logy5000

The more technology and prep that writers give him (Batman) in order to win, the more ridiculous it seems.

Clark can hear everything on the planet, so it seems like a huge plot convenience to me that Bruce can prep himself so much without Clark knowing.

Bruce is still just a human, no matter how much he works out or how smart he is. He has limits.

Even if Bruce were prepped to the maximum, Clark could still just grab the moon and hit Earth with it, killing Bruce in the process.

So really, there's no plausible reason at all for Batman to beat Superman in a fight that isn't lopsided on the writers' part just for the sake of Batman surviving the fight.

Posted by Dextersinister

@tikbaz: but stealth blitzes on an unknowing, trusting Superman.

But that speaks of nothing, the purpose was to show that Bruce has some sort of skill or mental edge. What amounts to suddenly killing your friend in there sleep doesn't paint that.

Your fight amounts to fanfiction and requires that Clark be out of character stupid, they've already shown that he knows how Bruce thinks better than most, Clark can see vitals so can hit someone with a single punch hard enough to knock them out or just restrain him in metal, also using someone else's resources wouldn't be a win for Batman.

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Posted by Tikbaz

Also, this is an intentionally silly scenario, don't take it to heart. :)

Edited by Tikbaz

@tikbaz:

it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character.

True

The problem with your examples aren't Batman beating Superman in a fight, they are Batman just suddenly murdering someone who trusts him, it speaks volumes that Superman needs to be placed in a position where he doesn't even know Batman is trying to kill him.

Superman in continuity in Batman/Superman annual number 1

That was a staged fight that Superman continued in a brawl, he predicted Batman would use kryptonite and didn't take to the skies or incinerate it because they needed the match to be convincing, he'd also taken a hit by Monguls son beforehand while under it's influence.

I see where you're coming from, but I intentionally wrote those examples as not straight up fight encounters, but stealth blitzes on an unknowing, trusting Superman. The point was just to show Bats could beat Supes if he felt that, for whatever reason, he needed to. If you read my post again, you'll see I stated Superman could just punch Bruce's head off in a straight up one on one situation. I'm not suggesting that Bruce can punch with Clark, that's ludicrous, I'm suggesting that Clark can be defeated by Bruce if necessary. Also, I can think of scenarios where Bruce wins even if Clark knows that the battle is happening, however, Bruce would still have to plan; as I also stated in my original post, Batman cannot just defeat him on a whim, he has to plan in advance. Clark can win on a whim; no preparation needed.

Bruce and Clark decide to settle a dispute between themselves via violence; Superman being the good guy that he is, and knowing that he possess all the physical advantages gives Bruce some time to prepare. He's being very sporting. They are going to have a fight in a desert in front of the League, and Martian Manhunter will officiate the match. The rules are simple, make the other guy say uncle, or knock the other guy out. Superman uses his prep time to acquire a lead lined suit, so kryptonite can't harm him. He also uses this time to practice non lethal combat maneuvers with Wonder Woman. Batman uses his prep time to learn an incantation from Constantine that makes anyone who hears it highly open to suggestion. He also steals Luthor's power suit and augments it with New52 stealth suit capabilities. He loads his utility belt with myriad hypersonics and custom modified flashbang grenades. He brings the green k ring as well.

Fight day.

Superman and Batman square off against each other, and Superman speed blitzes Batman as soon as Manhunter says begin. Superman hits Batman with a ten hit combo (while holding back of course), that drops Batman to his knees. Clark tells Bruce he has no chance, he tells him to quit. Batman, having a high tolerance for pain, gets back on his feet and smiles at Clark. Clark says that even with Luthor's armor and all his martial skills, Bruce can never win against him. Batman was counting on Clark holding back; taking things slow at the beginning. He uses Clark's speech as the perfect opportunity to activate the stealth features on the suit. Clark says that's clever, but not enough to stop him. Clark scans the area with all of his vision types, minus heat. While he scans, Bruce throws every hypersonic and flashbang he has in his belt to momentarily stun Clark. Clark screams at the pain his eyes and ears are momentarily feeling. Bruce utters his incantation. Clark feeling strange, flies back a hundred paces. Bruce pursues, telling Clark to give up; Clark fights the urge to concede. Batman has now caught up to Clark, and has started attacking, all the while telling Clark to surrender, and give in. Clark of course does not quit, that's not what he does. He fights back, even though he can't see what he's aiming for, he lands several hard haymakers on Bruce. Thankfully for Bruce, the armor, and the fact that Clark can't see his target, keeps him relatively safe. He's in pain, but he can still fight. The entire time this physical brawl is taking place, an internal battle is being waged inside of Clark's head. He keeps feeling as if he should quit, due to the spell Bruce used earlier. The longer they fight, the harder it becomes for Clark to stay invested in the battle. Batman tells Clark to give in, it's not worth it to continue, you know I'm right. He tells Clark I'm always right. Superman replies with never. Batman throws a razor sharp batarang at Clark that tears his lead lined suit. Batman, still invisible, slips on his green k ring. Bruce wails on Clark with everything he has, and the green k weakens the Man of Steel just enough that he's starting to feel those attacks. Clark, getting enraged, lashes out with a wide angle super speed heat vision blast that catches Batman, and damages the suit. It still functions, but stealth has been disengaged. Clark tells Bruce I have you now. Batman throws both hands in the air. It seems as if he realizes that he's outmatched, and is giving up. Clark asks if Bruce yields. Bruce says no, but you do. Clark asks what do you mean I yield. Bruce smiles. Martian Manhunter face palms himself because he can't believe Superman actually fell for that. Manhunter rules the fight in Batman's favor due to Superman saying I yield. The spell, the stealth, the super suit, the punching were all just distractions. Batman tricked Superman into giving up in front of everyone. Batman wins.

Sorry that's such a long example, but, there you go. Both were given fair shakes, but Bruce used his knowledge of Clark to manipulate him into quitting without him even realizing it. Is any of this actually likely? Of course not, Superman could have knocked him out in the first half second; he didn't even have to give Bruce prep time, he could have just torn him in half on the spot. I'm just showing that it is plausible for Batman to win against him or anyone else if the writer so chooses.

Thanks for the response. :)

Posted by DeathpooltheT1000

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Posted by Dextersinister

@tikbaz:

it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character.

True

The problem with your examples aren't Batman beating Superman in a fight, they are Batman just suddenly murdering someone who trusts him, it speaks volumes that Superman needs to be placed in a position where he doesn't even know Batman is trying to kill him.

Superman in continuity in Batman/Superman annual number 1

That was a staged fight that Superman continued in a brawl, he predicted Batman would use kryptonite and didn't take to the skies or incinerate it because they needed the match to be convincing, he'd also taken a hit by Monguls son beforehand while under it's influence.

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Posted by EdgeofReason

If Bat and Supes were to fight, morals off, Bats would be dead before he even realized he was in a fight, please tell me theres nobody here that disagrees with that statement...

Edited by LEGACY6364

Edited by DeathpooltheT1000

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Posted by LEGACY6364

Bull.

Posted by Frozen

Batman can beat Superman, actually I see it more than feasible. But luckily, we'll see it unravel in Dawn of Justice.

Posted by Tikbaz

Of course it's completely plausible that Batman could beat Superman, it's a comic book. Any character at any given time can be written to defeat any other character. Superman could punch Bruce's head off, use heat vision from space, freeze him with his breath, use super speed to get right next to him and then throw him into the sun. But Batman could just as easily use his new 52 stealth suit to sneak up on Clark when he's at work, turn on a portable red sun solar radiation emitter, put on kryptonite gauntlets that he had Zatanna magically imbue with extra strength for him and beat Kal into the floor.

Or Bruce could tell Clark that he set up he and Diana with an all expenses paid lovers retreat because they're all such good friends and he wants the two of them to enjoy each other's company. Clark takes Diana to this retreat and they enter their room, which is lead lined with hidden compartments in the floors, walls, and ceilings, unbeknownst to Superman. During Wonder Woman and Superman's "alone time", those hidden compartments open up flooding the room with gold kryptonite radiation, robbing Clark of all his powers, leaving him exposed to the green k bullet that was just shot through the window by a co opted Deadshot into Kal's now human heart.

But here's the thing, Batman would never hire some villain to assassinate his best buddy, and Superman has ZERO reason to throw his favorite costumed friend into the sun. If it's in continuity, these two aren't going to go all out on each other. Out of canon, either could kill the other with relative ease. It's just that Bruce would have to prepare for the encounter ahead of time, while Clark could destroy Bruce on a whim.

Honestly, how is there even a discussion still going on about this, didn't Batman already beat Superman in continuity in Batman/Superman annual number 1?

Posted by wildvine

1) Superman isn't mentally inferior. He has all kinds of technology he invented, not to mention matching wits with Luthor.

2) Batman wouldn't threaten innocents to beat Superman. I just don't see that.

3) Krytonite isn't that common

4) Superman is really fast. And this argument boils down to "with prep"

5) Fair enough

6) X-Ray vision trumps disguises.

7) Again, nanotech isn't that common I don't believe. Not sure even Batman could just order some up online.

8) Summary, Batman can beat Superman with prep in a perfect storm type scenario. Then again, so could I.

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